Author Topic: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)  (Read 8649 times)

KBecks

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Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« on: June 21, 2016, 08:42:49 AM »
http://education.penelopetrunk.com/2013/02/26/five-ways-to-tell-if-your-kid-should-go-to-college/

Nice article.  I have been listening to a podcast, The Survival Podcast, and some of the discussion has been about the coming destruction / transformation of higher education, as well as the rise of artificial intelligence.

I am thinking about canceling savings for my children's college educations.  I am thinking about homeschooling.

Hmmm.

Just wanted to talk here about college and if it will be important 10 - 15 years from now.   How will it be different?


GuitarStv

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2016, 08:55:53 AM »
Is it necessary?  No.  It's possible to be successful without attending college.  It's also possible to live a happy life on 5000$ a year.  While it's possible, this is not a path that the majority of people would be comfortable walking.

Will college attendance open more doors in the future with regards to employment?  All evidence points to yes, that's generally true.  People with college educations get better jobs and make more money.

Is college only beneficial as a means to a future job?  That one's up to you to decide.

KCM5

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2016, 09:27:13 AM »
Currently I look at college as an entrance fee to buy yourself into the upper middle class. Is it a guarantee that you'll be upper middle class if you go to college? Of course not. But you'll have a heck of a lot easier time getting there if you do.

I don't think that is going to change enough within the next two decades to negate the value of a college education.

Personally, I plan on paying my child's tuition and perhaps rent. She'll be on her own for food, other living expenses, books. I'm not going to save money specifically for this. I'll pull from investments and if I don't want to do that I'll get a part time job to cover it (or a full time job if necessary). That way my kid knows full well that we're working so she can go to school. And value that money that she's receiving to do so.

That said, college being necessary or not really has little to do with homeschooling. If you want to homeschool your children, go for it.

KBecks

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2016, 09:49:38 AM »
Do you think college will still be the ticket into the upper middle class in 10 - 15 years?

KCM5

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2016, 10:01:08 AM »
Do you think college will still be the ticket into the upper middle class in 10 - 15 years?

More like a raffle ticket. What I think is that it will continue to not be a guarantee, but it will also continue to be the easiest, most common way. And with upper middle class parents, they'll have a better chance of making it work.

GuitarStv

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2016, 10:07:11 AM »
Do you think college will still be the ticket into the upper middle class in 10 - 15 years?

Yes.  The entire job market would have to fundamentally change over the next decade for this to be false.

onlykelsey

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2016, 10:09:42 AM »
Do you think college will still be the ticket into the upper middle class in 10 - 15 years?

Yes.  The entire job market would have to fundamentally change over the next decade for this to be false.

Agreed.  I think we're seeing a separation of kids who went to lower-tier schools from mid- and upper-tier ones in terms of success out of college, and I'd be iffy on investing lots of money on lower-tier education, but I definitely think college will still be the ticket in 10 or 15 years.  What evidence do you see to the contrary?

KBecks

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2016, 10:19:00 AM »
Artificial intelligence.

Prairie Stash

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2016, 10:58:23 AM »
Nice article. I majored in a STEM and found university (with loans) absolutely beneficial. Do you see your kids doing a STEM degree or not? The article was clear that it was only talking about non-stem degrees

KBecks

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2016, 11:14:29 AM »
My oldest is only 11 and he wants to be a veterinarian.  He also would make a great counselor, lots of empathy. 

hoping2retire35

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2016, 12:41:40 PM »
My thoughts.
if a degree is for employment mostly/only them STEM field or bust. don't do humanities/business or anything else. Unless your child is driven to get a graduate degree then this will be a very tough field to get employed, even with a masters these fields can be difficult to have a job or at least one that is worth while.

I was offered a job when I was only 20 (sophomore) and would have started off making more than I make now (I knew others then that with overtime made double what I make now). Even though I knew I would not stay in engineering I talked myself out of taking the job. Financially, regretted it ever since.

tonysemail

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2016, 04:57:33 PM »
the article is just not very compelling to me.
it's one woman's opinion and a very biased opinion at that.

I would be wary of "betting the farm" on optimistic projections which are essentially unknowable.
This isn't the case that you can research it to death and come to a definitive conclusion.
It's very much the opposite where you gamble using a great deal of faith.
And beware of survival bias clouding your perspective.
Ask yourself... for every ONE disruptive technology that upended a field like education... how many others failed and you never heard about their failure?

mousebandit

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2016, 05:16:37 PM »
My thoughts.
if a degree is for employment mostly/only them STEM field or bust. don't do humanities/business or anything else. Unless your child is driven to get a graduate degree then this will be a very tough field to get employed, even with a masters these fields can be difficult to have a job or at least one that is worth while.

I was offered a job when I was only 20 (sophomore) and would have started off making more than I make now (I knew others then that with overtime made double what I make now). Even though I knew I would not stay in engineering I talked myself out of taking the job. Financially, regretted it ever since.

+1 - I would also add that we don't anticipate our kids going to college for a variety of reasons.  We do intend to save money for their "future endeavors" - whether that be for capital to start a business, or a down payment on a home, or whatever the future may bring.  IMO, unless you're going STEM or specific career goal that requires a license / professional requirements, I don't see the basic 4-year degree being a worthwhile investment anymore.  If college were needed for our children's specific career goals, I think we would be purusing CLEP options, and other avenues to speed things up and keep them out of the "college as an experience" channels.  I see it as overpriced, under-delivering, and especially the first 2 years, not much about education, LOL.  I don't see any of these issues improving over the next 10-15 years. 

What I do think are excellent opportunities for teens and early-twenties, are apprenticeships, internships, and small-business ownership.  Hands-on learning, training, and experience is priceless, and the self-motivated types that do well with this, often make very good impressions on and hugely valuable networking contacts with the established business and corporate communities that will serve them throughout their lives. 

I'm also a huge advocate for homeschooling.  We homeschooled our 2 older sons through graduation, and are now homeschooling our 4 youngest children.  For a bazillion reasons, we would never go back to outsourcing their education! 

MouseBandit

redcedar

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2016, 06:00:42 PM »
Agree that it is not required. The hard part is knowing your kids so well that you can help them make this very hard decision at around 17 years old.

For some people, their college and degree can open so many doors that are just not open to many others. I don't mean that I am super special and no one else gets similar opportunities but the advantage is very real.

So for me, it's not about no college vs college. It's no college vs low relevance education vs high relevance education. Low relevance education is a real danger zone.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 06:02:56 PM by GrOW »

JustTrying

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2016, 09:37:22 PM »
It seems like the assumption is that it's the parents' choice whether or not the child goes to college. I do not plan to make this choice for my child. I do plan to save some for college, but likely not enough to cover all of tuition. If she chooses to go, great! I've got some money to help her out. If she chooses not to go, no problem! But she's not living with me till she's 25! College is certainly not necessary, and it never has been. In fact, many of the smartest most successful people I know didn't go to college. I do not think that things will change so much in the next 15 years that college is obsolete. It seems to me that the people who succeed without college educations are the smart and lucky ones, but there are a whole lot of people out there who are not all that smart or lucky and who will have the most success with a college degree - I think this will continue long into the future as well.

GeekyGirl

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2016, 03:15:07 AM »
Hi,

My perspective on this might be different as I am not living in the land of opportunities (US). Somewhere else it is almost impossible to have a decent income or own a home with no degree. In my home country, when you are from a family of modest means, education is your only chance. You don’t have the network to get an apprenticeship and you don’t have the money to start a business so you’ll struggle your entire life with no secure job and so will your children. Add to that, no social security whatsoever. If you’re adventurous, you start with nothing, work hard and end up being a great entrepreneur; but let’s be honest, not everyone is cut out to be a smart and ingenuous entrepreneur. So with such ‘high prospects’ and no entrepreneurship spirit, you have no choice but to excel in school to get a chance to ‘make it’.

Education opened doors for me that I would have never dreamed of. I live in France now while the three years undergrad degree is not a guarantee to get a job here, I think it mostly because of the very high unemployment rate. However with a STEM degree you have endless opportunities, and while others fear being fired or demoted, you can change jobs as you want. I think that won’t change in the coming years, STEM fields are just starting to develop in Europe. The same is true for the US, I would go back today and I’m guaranteed a great job thanks to my top-tier STEM degree. The same is true in Africa and Australia where some of my friends have great jobs.

So my children will probably go to college, the question is whether they’ll have ‘free’ French schooling (DH is French) or if we could afford a North American education. I’m saving a little for it but having studied for free thanks to scholarships, I’ll encourage them to excel in their studies if they want to go to an elite school. We could help with fares and the rest of the tuition but they’ll have to work for their living expenses or apply to other scholarships as I did. However I won’t dip into my investments for a Humanity degree. You can do that on your free time while doing a part-time job or after you have a secure income or on your own with my best wishes.

Personally I think if you can afford it, encourage your children to go to college; especially to get technical degrees. Humanities I’m not so sure, my brother majored in Sociology and I’m still not sure what the job prospect was for that. I mean it’s good to discuss about the best way to manage the prisons or to reform our education system, but you have to put food on the table for god sake. An apprenticeship, a two-year technical degree leading to a job, or a mix of work experience would have been much more reasonable.

Mairuiming

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2016, 05:21:40 AM »
I am in India and at the moment college education is mandatory to get  a decent job.

No offence to people flipping burgers, electrician, plumber, etc, but the wage gap in India is huge between college graduates and high school graduates.

Yes, I am saving for my son's college education (he is 18 months old). Since my son is very young I don't have to put aside a lot of money every month. If he decides NOT to go to college, then we will have some buffer amount in retirement (you never know what the inflation will be like in 15-20 years time).

Blueskies123

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2016, 05:40:47 AM »
I cannot people in this day and age still ask this question.  YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES.

charis

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2016, 06:00:59 AM »
The wage gap in the US is huge between people that go to college and people that don't.   The only question should be whether my individual child(ren) can succeed in their chosen field without a degree.  It is absurd to paint college with such a broad stroke and say that you should skip college if you aren't going for STEM. 

I do agree that a liberal arts degree from a small, private, lower tier school is probably never worth the cost.   The most cost-effective way to attend college is a good community college and transfer to a well respected state school.

GuitarStv

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2016, 06:02:02 AM »
It seems like the assumption is that it's the parents' choice whether or not the child goes to college. I do not plan to make this choice for my child.

I think that in general, the way that you raise your child will radically influence the way that your child makes this choice.  If you value education and see it as a great opportunity to better yourself, your child will pick up on this and absorb it.  By the time he or she is 17/18 this will be a deeply ingrained belief in most cases.  The opposite is also true . . . if you constantly slag on the value of an education, your kid will probably not do as well scholastically or be drawn to furthering their education.

In my family nobody ever said that my sister or I had to go to university . . . but there was never any doubt that we would.

andy85

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2016, 06:10:39 AM »
If they go into a trade, then no.

Pretty much anything else above entry level positions (even with experience), then yes.

My company is transitioning to require a bachelor's degree for pretty much any line of work, with the exception of customer service. Even some of the manual labor positions in the company now require an associate's degree. As others have said, a bachelor's is just your foot in the door with most companies. I strongly believe that the master's degree (as in a general MBA) is becoming the new bachelor's. It won't guarantee you anything, but it will give you a leg up on somebody in the hiring process for sure.

Fishindude

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2016, 07:07:29 AM »
The office I work in has (16) people, I count (7) degrees. 
Some of the non-degree people here are equally as smart and skilled as those with the degrees and make as much or more money.

Some folks are extremely proud of their college degrees to the point of being almost snobby, and look down on those without a degree.
Seems like when this type is in a position of hiring, they usually insist that their managers have a college degree, and will hire strangers from outside, possibly overlooking some pretty good in-house talent that knows the business and could be developed and quite effective.   

With today's cost of a full college degree, I think many would be much better served to just go to work, and work their way up the ladder.

 



GuitarStv

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2016, 07:25:11 AM »
With today's cost of a full college degree, I think many would be much better served to just go to work, and work their way up the ladder.

Is working your way up the ladder really a thing?

My personal experience working about eight or nine jobs over my lifetime is that at most companies around here it is not possible to work your way up the ladder.  People who join up in very low positions might be able to advance one or two positions higher, but that's it.  Most management type positions are filled externally from the companies, and having a degree is a bare minimum requirement for the bulk of the higher paying positions . . . regardless of quality of work or experience.

KCM5

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2016, 07:31:46 AM »
With today's cost of a full college degree, I think many would be much better served to just go to work, and work their way up the ladder.

Is working your way up the ladder really a thing?

My personal experience working about eight or nine jobs over my lifetime is that at most companies around here it is not possible to work your way up the ladder.  People who join up in very low positions might be able to advance one or two positions higher, but that's it.  Most management type positions are filled externally from the companies, and having a degree is a bare minimum requirement for the bulk of the higher paying positions . . . regardless of quality of work or experience.

Agreed. In my office, if you're not support staff, you have a degree. We're mostly scientists and engineers, but the project managers and IT staff need one, too. It's not a question of being capable or not. It's a box that is required to be checked. Don't have a BA? It's just not going to happen. I mean, it is literally written as a requirement to be eligible for the posting.

However, we do have plenty of "moving up the ladder". You just have to have a college degree to get on the first rung.

GuitarStv

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2016, 07:37:14 AM »
With today's cost of a full college degree, I think many would be much better served to just go to work, and work their way up the ladder.

Is working your way up the ladder really a thing?

My personal experience working about eight or nine jobs over my lifetime is that at most companies around here it is not possible to work your way up the ladder.  People who join up in very low positions might be able to advance one or two positions higher, but that's it.  Most management type positions are filled externally from the companies, and having a degree is a bare minimum requirement for the bulk of the higher paying positions . . . regardless of quality of work or experience.

Agreed. In my office, if you're not support staff, you have a degree. We're mostly scientists and engineers, but the project managers and IT staff need one, too. It's not a question of being capable or not. It's a box that is required to be checked. Don't have a BA? It's just not going to happen. I mean, it is literally written as a requirement to be eligible for the posting.

However, we do have plenty of "moving up the ladder". You just have to have a college degree to get on the first rung.

Yeah, we have moving up the ladder from like an engineering job to middle management, or even director of departments . . . but no engineer is ever going to be a VP.  There appears to be a range of mobility depending on where you start.  I don't think anyone on the janitorial staff, security, or from an administrative assistant position has any room to move up.  Those are the only jobs that you can get without a degree.

andy85

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2016, 07:42:58 AM »
The office I work in has (16) people, I count (7) degrees. 
Some of the non-degree people here are equally as smart and skilled as those with the degrees and make as much or more money.

Some folks are extremely proud of their college degrees to the point of being almost snobby, and look down on those without a degree.
Seems like when this type is in a position of hiring, they usually insist that their managers have a college degree, and will hire strangers from outside, possibly overlooking some pretty good in-house talent that knows the business and could be developed and quite effective.   

With today's cost of a full college degree, I think many would be much better served to just go to work, and work their way up the ladder.

the problem is (at least in my work place)....ladders vary in height
no degree - a very small 2 rung ladder
bachelors - normal 6ft ladder with many rungs
master's - 10ft ladder that gets you most of the way up
multiple advance degrees (i.e. masters and JD) - executive potential - extension ladder

with no degree you pretty much have no ladder to go up. you can only advance so many positions without a degree before you will be overlooked for people with similar experience+degree. just a fact of life around here...not sure if it's wrong or right, but that is how it is.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2016, 08:04:44 AM »
The office I work in has (16) people, I count (7) degrees. 
Some of the non-degree people here are equally as smart and skilled as those with the degrees and make as much or more money.

Some folks are extremely proud of their college degrees to the point of being almost snobby, and look down on those without a degree.
Seems like when this type is in a position of hiring, they usually insist that their managers have a college degree, and will hire strangers from outside, possibly overlooking some pretty good in-house talent that knows the business and could be developed and quite effective.   

With today's cost of a full college degree, I think many would be much better served to just go to work, and work their way up the ladder.

the problem is (at least in my work place)....ladders vary in height
no degree - a very small 2 rung ladder
bachelors - normal 6ft ladder with many rungs
master's - 10ft ladder that gets you most of the way up
multiple advance degrees (i.e. masters and JD) - executive potential - extension ladder

with no degree you pretty much have no ladder to go up. you can only advance so many positions without a degree before you will be overlooked for people with similar experience+degree. just a fact of life around here...not sure if it's wrong or right, but that is how it is.

Well I guess you can get those advanced degrees and start your working career at 30 with $200,000 in debt and be a wage slave for the next 40 years or you can be 30 having already worked 10-12 years in a respectable field and saved enough to retire to a comfortable life and take classes for further self actualization at your local community college and if you really enjoy get that bachelors/master/phd.

Sorry had to use some forceful sarcasm to make the point. not trying to pick on you andy.

boarder42

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2016, 08:08:03 AM »
i think the entire idea of how advanced education is delivered will be turned on its head in 20 years by the time my non existing kids would reach there.  think about 20 years ago.  and what the internet was ... now look at today... college will be readily available at much lower costs online. 

Cromacster

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2016, 08:23:53 AM »
With today's cost of a full college degree, I think many would be much better served to just go to work, and work their way up the ladder.

Is working your way up the ladder really a thing?

My personal experience working about eight or nine jobs over my lifetime is that at most companies around here it is not possible to work your way up the ladder.  People who join up in very low positions might be able to advance one or two positions higher, but that's it.  Most management type positions are filled externally from the companies, and having a degree is a bare minimum requirement for the bulk of the higher paying positions . . . regardless of quality of work or experience.

Agreed. In my office, if you're not support staff, you have a degree. We're mostly scientists and engineers, but the project managers and IT staff need one, too. It's not a question of being capable or not. It's a box that is required to be checked. Don't have a BA? It's just not going to happen. I mean, it is literally written as a requirement to be eligible for the posting.

However, we do have plenty of "moving up the ladder". You just have to have a college degree to get on the first rung.

Yeah, we have moving up the ladder from like an engineering job to middle management, or even director of departments . . . but no engineer is ever going to be a VP.  There appears to be a range of mobility depending on where you start.  I don't think anyone on the janitorial staff, security, or from an administrative assistant position has any room to move up.  Those are the only jobs that you can get without a degree.

The old CEO of my company started as a design engineer.  Worked his way up in the company for 30+ years, being a VP at one point and eventually CEO.  I realize this is an isolated case, but you did use the words "ever".

boarder42

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2016, 08:27:37 AM »
With today's cost of a full college degree, I think many would be much better served to just go to work, and work their way up the ladder.

Is working your way up the ladder really a thing?

My personal experience working about eight or nine jobs over my lifetime is that at most companies around here it is not possible to work your way up the ladder.  People who join up in very low positions might be able to advance one or two positions higher, but that's it.  Most management type positions are filled externally from the companies, and having a degree is a bare minimum requirement for the bulk of the higher paying positions . . . regardless of quality of work or experience.

Agreed. In my office, if you're not support staff, you have a degree. We're mostly scientists and engineers, but the project managers and IT staff need one, too. It's not a question of being capable or not. It's a box that is required to be checked. Don't have a BA? It's just not going to happen. I mean, it is literally written as a requirement to be eligible for the posting.

However, we do have plenty of "moving up the ladder". You just have to have a college degree to get on the first rung.

Yeah, we have moving up the ladder from like an engineering job to middle management, or even director of departments . . . but no engineer is ever going to be a VP.  There appears to be a range of mobility depending on where you start.  I don't think anyone on the janitorial staff, security, or from an administrative assistant position has any room to move up.  Those are the only jobs that you can get without a degree.

The old CEO of my company started as a design engineer.  Worked his way up in the company for 30+ years, being a VP at one point and eventually CEO.  I realize this is an isolated case, but you did use the words "ever".

i work at an engineering firm all most all of our VPs and associates , and all CEOs have been engineers.  i think its best to go to work for a company who focuses on what your major is.  if you an electrical engineer go work for an electrical design firm etc.

onlykelsey

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2016, 08:28:16 AM »
i think the entire idea of how advanced education is delivered will be turned on its head in 20 years by the time my non existing kids would reach there.  think about 20 years ago.  and what the internet was ... now look at today... college will be readily available at much lower costs online.

I don't know.  College is already available online.  I think a big part of college is networking and soft skills (for better and worse), and just hanging out with the "right" people.  I didn't understand this when I was in college, but the amount of business that I do with people I met when I was 18 is crazy.

Sibley

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2016, 08:36:47 AM »
Given today's realities in the job market, for many, if not most, PROFESSIONAL jobs, yes you will need college. It'll be very hard to change that. And in many cases, I don't think we should change that.

Example. I'm a CPA, an accountant. You do not need to have a college degree to be an accountant in general. However, without a college degree you'll mostly likely be stuck in lower level positions. You do need one to be a CPA (150 credit hours required in almost every state, if not all by now, to take the CPA exam). In order to change this, you'd have to convince 50 states, 50 state associations, the AICPA, plus whatever other associations to change it. Good luck with that.

You want to see a doctor who hasn't been to college? Take your beloved pet to a vet without a degree? No thanks. For that matter, I don't want my electrician to be self educated either.

A standardized education provides something else - some assurance to others that the person knows what they're doing. Doesn't mean that they do, but it's a good start. How we do that right now is college, and trade schools, etc. That may change, sure. But it's not going to change overnight, because we also would have to change the laws, employer's requirements and societal expectations. Not that easy.

What that means for your child - plan for flexibility. College isn't right for everyone. Maybe a trade school is better for a particular kid. But you may be better off investing that money outside of restrictive college-only accounts, just in case. Because we don't know what'll happen in 15 or 20 years. If college is still needed, then you'll be prepared. Maybe it'll morph into something we can't imagine right now. But be flexible.

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2016, 08:40:12 AM »
Well I guess you can get those advanced degrees and start your working career at 30 with $200,000 in debt and be a wage slave for the next 40 years or you can be 30 having already worked 10-12 years in a respectable field and saved enough to retire to a comfortable life and take classes for further self actualization at your local community college and if you really enjoy get that bachelors/master/phd.

Sorry had to use some forceful sarcasm to make the point. not trying to pick on you andy.

Your point isn't as useful as you think it is.  I'm sitting across from a 23 year old who is one year away from a JD on scholarship.   Most professionals that I know are not graduating at 30 with $200,000 in loan debt.   The Phds are typically older, yes, but don't have that kind of debt. 

onlykelsey

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2016, 08:48:23 AM »
Well I guess you can get those advanced degrees and start your working career at 30 with $200,000 in debt and be a wage slave for the next 40 years or you can be 30 having already worked 10-12 years in a respectable field and saved enough to retire to a comfortable life and take classes for further self actualization at your local community college and if you really enjoy get that bachelors/master/phd.

Sorry had to use some forceful sarcasm to make the point. not trying to pick on you andy.

Your point isn't as useful as you think it is.  I'm sitting across from a 23 year old who is one year away from a JD on scholarship.   Most professionals that I know are not graduating at 30 with $200,000 in loan debt.   The Phds are typically older, yes, but don't have that kind of debt. 

As much as as I think tuition rates are a problem, I agree.  By 24 I had a BA, JD and MA, and had my loans paid off two years later (no parental help).  You give up time outside the workforce, for sure, but it's still a pretty solid investment for a majority of people.  Obviously all bets are off if you go to a lower tier school, but that's a bad idea for several other reasons, as well.

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2016, 09:08:20 AM »
i think the entire idea of how advanced education is delivered will be turned on its head in 20 years by the time my non existing kids would reach there.  think about 20 years ago.  and what the internet was ... now look at today... college will be readily available at much lower costs online.

I don't know.  College is already available online.  I think a big part of college is networking and soft skills (for better and worse), and just hanging out with the "right" people.  I didn't understand this when I was in college, but the amount of business that I do with people I met when I was 18 is crazy.

in an increasing digital world all of this networking will be done online.  i agree the social aspect of it may be whats lacking for some but imagine a campus in a city setup solely for remote learning to add that level of social availability.  you could have the labs so the remote students from multiple universities could learn simultaneously.  you could decrease the number of professors required.  etc.

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2016, 09:18:18 AM »
Interesting responses.
Where I live in the rural mid-west, there are still many very successful, large profitable businesses run entrepreneurs who started from scratch and built their business.  These folks don't much care about your level of education, but more about your work history and your ability to get the job done.  Working your way up the ladder is still very doable in these organizations and you see it every day.

 

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2016, 09:19:19 AM »
i think the entire idea of how advanced education is delivered will be turned on its head in 20 years by the time my non existing kids would reach there.  think about 20 years ago.  and what the internet was ... now look at today... college will be readily available at much lower costs online.

I don't know.  College is already available online.  I think a big part of college is networking and soft skills (for better and worse), and just hanging out with the "right" people.  I didn't understand this when I was in college, but the amount of business that I do with people I met when I was 18 is crazy.

in an increasing digital world all of this networking will be done online.  i agree the social aspect of it may be whats lacking for some but imagine a campus in a city setup solely for remote learning to add that level of social availability.  you could have the labs so the remote students from multiple universities could learn simultaneously.  you could decrease the number of professors required.  etc.

I'm not sure you're right.  i definitely agree you can find social interaction elsewhere and that there are workarounds, but for the many people for whom money is no object, an elite on-campus experience will remain the norm, and you can't access the social capital of those folks studying remotely. 

It seems like a lot of the elite colleges are moving towards things like no tuition for kids of families who make less than 100K a year, etc.  I paid essentially nothing for my ivy league undergrad because it's need-based aid.  I think if you can beat the odds and get to an elite school as a lower-class kid, you'll be okay.  But if your standardized tests, etc are below the 98th percentile, you seem a bit up the creek.

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2016, 09:23:09 AM »
I'm saving for my kids college because I would like them to have that opportunity if they want it.  When I look into my crystal ball, I see college as becomming all too common in the future and the skilled professions becomming more and more valuable (plumber, electrician, etc.)... so I would be just as happy if my kids wanted to learn skills and use the money to start a business or something like that.

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2016, 09:23:48 AM »
i think the entire idea of how advanced education is delivered will be turned on its head in 20 years by the time my non existing kids would reach there.  think about 20 years ago.  and what the internet was ... now look at today... college will be readily available at much lower costs online.

I don't know.  College is already available online.  I think a big part of college is networking and soft skills (for better and worse), and just hanging out with the "right" people.  I didn't understand this when I was in college, but the amount of business that I do with people I met when I was 18 is crazy.

in an increasing digital world all of this networking will be done online.  i agree the social aspect of it may be whats lacking for some but imagine a campus in a city setup solely for remote learning to add that level of social availability.  you could have the labs so the remote students from multiple universities could learn simultaneously.  you could decrease the number of professors required.  etc.

I'm not sure you're right.  i definitely agree you can find social interaction elsewhere and that there are workarounds, but for the many people for whom money is no object, an elite on-campus experience will remain the norm, and you can't access the social capital of those folks studying remotely. 

It seems like a lot of the elite colleges are moving towards things like no tuition for kids of families who make less than 100K a year, etc.  I paid essentially nothing for my ivy league undergrad because it's need-based aid.  I think if you can beat the odds and get to an elite school as a lower-class kid, you'll be okay.  But if your standardized tests, etc are below the 98th percentile, you seem a bit up the creek.

Most of the networking that I did in university happened after classes.  I don't see online stuff replacing shared real world experiences.  Being online means general anonymity, the ability to groom your persona, the ability to hide an awful lot about yourself.  There's always less truth, less buy-in, and thus less closeness.

onlykelsey

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2016, 09:38:56 AM »
i think the entire idea of how advanced education is delivered will be turned on its head in 20 years by the time my non existing kids would reach there.  think about 20 years ago.  and what the internet was ... now look at today... college will be readily available at much lower costs online.

I don't know.  College is already available online.  I think a big part of college is networking and soft skills (for better and worse), and just hanging out with the "right" people.  I didn't understand this when I was in college, but the amount of business that I do with people I met when I was 18 is crazy.

in an increasing digital world all of this networking will be done online.  i agree the social aspect of it may be whats lacking for some but imagine a campus in a city setup solely for remote learning to add that level of social availability.  you could have the labs so the remote students from multiple universities could learn simultaneously.  you could decrease the number of professors required.  etc.

I'm not sure you're right.  i definitely agree you can find social interaction elsewhere and that there are workarounds, but for the many people for whom money is no object, an elite on-campus experience will remain the norm, and you can't access the social capital of those folks studying remotely. 

It seems like a lot of the elite colleges are moving towards things like no tuition for kids of families who make less than 100K a year, etc.  I paid essentially nothing for my ivy league undergrad because it's need-based aid.  I think if you can beat the odds and get to an elite school as a lower-class kid, you'll be okay.  But if your standardized tests, etc are below the 98th percentile, you seem a bit up the creek.

Most of the networking that I did in university happened after classes.  I don't see online stuff replacing shared real world experiences.  Being online means general anonymity, the ability to groom your persona, the ability to hide an awful lot about yourself.  There's always less truth, less buy-in, and thus less closeness.

That's a good point about less buy-in.  Being idiot 18 year olds or struggling with your first midterm at 4 AM or drinking too much is hard to do over the internet.

randymarsh

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2016, 09:40:00 AM »
A college degree has never been worth more than it is today and I don't see that changing anytime soon. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/11/wage-premium-from-college-is-said-to-be-up/?_r=0

onlykelsey

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2016, 10:14:19 AM »
A college degree has never been worth more than it is today and I don't see that changing anytime soon. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/11/wage-premium-from-college-is-said-to-be-up/?_r=0

It only seems to be getting wider.  I do wonder about the mean v. median, though. 

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2016, 10:20:09 AM »
Well I guess you can get those advanced degrees and start your working career at 30 with $200,000 in debt and be a wage slave for the next 40 years or you can be 30 having already worked 10-12 years in a respectable field and saved enough to retire to a comfortable life and take classes for further self actualization at your local community college and if you really enjoy get that bachelors/master/phd.

Sorry had to use some forceful sarcasm to make the point. not trying to pick on you andy.

Your point isn't as useful as you think it is.  I'm sitting across from a 23 year old who is one year away from a JD on scholarship.   Most professionals that I know are not graduating at 30 with $200,000 in loan debt.   The Phds are typically older, yes, but don't have that kind of debt. 

As much as as I think tuition rates are a problem, I agree.  By 24 I had a BA, JD and MA, and had my loans paid off two years later (no parental help).  You give up time outside the workforce, for sure, but it's still a pretty solid investment for a majority of people.  Obviously all bets are off if you go to a lower tier school, but that's a bad idea for several other reasons, as well.

you are also a rare exception. probably very supportive social/family group and motivated from a young age to get those degrees or something like that. What should be a total of 9 years of post high school degrees in 6 years(unless you turned 25 the summer after you graduated or something). Most people do not figure that out until later in life or sorta just do it as they go along. lots of debt also comes from living expenses, not just tuition and fees. Also I am willing to bet you were willing to move in order to get a job, lots of other people are not. I might have been open to moving early in adulthood but not now.

onlykelsey

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2016, 10:29:16 AM »
Well I guess you can get those advanced degrees and start your working career at 30 with $200,000 in debt and be a wage slave for the next 40 years or you can be 30 having already worked 10-12 years in a respectable field and saved enough to retire to a comfortable life and take classes for further self actualization at your local community college and if you really enjoy get that bachelors/master/phd.

Sorry had to use some forceful sarcasm to make the point. not trying to pick on you andy.

Your point isn't as useful as you think it is.  I'm sitting across from a 23 year old who is one year away from a JD on scholarship.   Most professionals that I know are not graduating at 30 with $200,000 in loan debt.   The Phds are typically older, yes, but don't have that kind of debt. 

As much as as I think tuition rates are a problem, I agree.  By 24 I had a BA, JD and MA, and had my loans paid off two years later (no parental help).  You give up time outside the workforce, for sure, but it's still a pretty solid investment for a majority of people.  Obviously all bets are off if you go to a lower tier school, but that's a bad idea for several other reasons, as well.

you are also a rare exception. probably very supportive social/family group and motivated from a young age to get those degrees or something like that. What should be a total of 9 years of post high school degrees in 6 years(unless you turned 25 the summer after you graduated or something). Most people do not figure that out until later in life or sorta just do it as they go along. lots of debt also comes from living expenses, not just tuition and fees. Also I am willing to bet you were willing to move in order to get a job, lots of other people are not. I might have been open to moving early in adulthood but not now.

I guess there's a self selection problem, as it seems pretty normal in my circle of friends.  Of course a solid half of my cousins (white working class [working poor?] as well) didn't even finish high school, and I was orphaned in high school, so I do realize it's not the norm.  But the average undergrad debt load was still only ~30K for BA holders in 2014, which is certainly significant, but not crushing http://ticas.org/posd/map-state-data-2015

Being willing to move for education and a job (I went from Philly to a small-town college to Texas and now live in NYC, with some stops abroad) is definitely an advantage of youth, but for me, that's an argument in favor of getting it out of the way if you're mature enough to perform well while you're there.  FWIW, I turned 25 the summer after graduating, the real time savings was smushing my JD and MA in to 3 years in a suicidal manner.

I think if you can knock your grades and SAT/ACTs out of the water, as a poor or working class kid, you should actually look VERY SERIOUSLY at elite private schools.  The amount of aid available is amazing.  and if you're a solid middle class kid with above average grades, you have good state school options.  But if you're poor and have just average or above average grades, it's rough. I think the outlier stories about 200K of debt at 25 are largely from people who had no business in graduate or professional school and went to degree mills.  There's a real problem with unaccredited law schools preying on these folks, although I don't feel TOO much sympathy, as they all already had BAs and were in their 20s when they made these choices.

J Boogie

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2016, 11:37:09 AM »
In terms of saving for kids' college, I am going to optimize my balance sheet to minimize my Expected Family Contribution.

Retirement accounts don't count towards it, but real estate (excluding your primary residence) does.

Your income of course counts towards it as well.

randymarsh

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2016, 12:08:37 PM »
A college degree has never been worth more than it is today and I don't see that changing anytime soon. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/11/wage-premium-from-college-is-said-to-be-up/?_r=0

It only seems to be getting wider.  I do wonder about the mean v. median, though.

The mean would show an even bigger gap, right? The value of education would be overstated by CEOs and the penalty for not going to college would be overstated by extreme low income earners.

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2016, 06:51:34 PM »
I cannot people in this day and age still ask this question.  YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES.

I think it's a side effect from reading too many posts on UNLIMITED OPTIMISM and too few on the odds of successful self-employment or the income gaps related to higher education attainment.

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2016, 07:08:01 PM »
It seems like the assumption is that it's the parents' choice whether or not the child goes to college. I do not plan to make this choice for my child.

I think that in general, the way that you raise your child will radically influence the way that your child makes this choice.  If you value education and see it as a great opportunity to better yourself, your child will pick up on this and absorb it.  By the time he or she is 17/18 this will be a deeply ingrained belief in most cases.  The opposite is also true . . . if you constantly slag on the value of an education, your kid will probably not do as well scholastically or be drawn to furthering their education.

In my family nobody ever said that my sister or I had to go to university . . . but there was never any doubt that we would.

Ha! My parents told me that I didn't have to go to college. I spent much of my childhood telling people that I wouldn't go to college, mostly because so many of them were so absolutely insistent that college was necessary. I now have a doctorate. Whoopsie! (Though it's my parents' lax attitude about college that makes me balk whenever parents act like they get to make choices for their children re: college).

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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2016, 01:38:41 AM »
Having a low EFC is really great if your child gets into a school that will meet their needs.  Many schools (especially the affordable state schools) will offer you loans to close the gap between tuition and EFC.  Many elite schools will fund the difference between EFC and tuition with grants, but you have to get into the elite school first.  Also, many private schools use the PROFILE to determine EFC, not the FAFSA.  The profile looks at a broader range of assets, including home equity and retirement accounts (and I imagine they define "retirement account" a lot more narrowly than people here do.  You see a "retirement account", they see a lump of cash waiting to pay for college.


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Re: Is College Necessary? (Saving For College)
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2016, 06:40:03 AM »
Having a low EFC is really great if your child gets into a school that will meet their needs.  Many schools (especially the affordable state schools) will offer you loans to close the gap between tuition and EFC.  Many elite schools will fund the difference between EFC and tuition with grants, but you have to get into the elite school first.  Also, many private schools use the PROFILE to determine EFC, not the FAFSA.  The profile looks at a broader range of assets, including home equity and retirement accounts (and I imagine they define "retirement account" a lot more narrowly than people here do.  You see a "retirement account", they see a lump of cash waiting to pay for college.
I believe you are correct about the PROFILE. I remember reading something about that. it seems like there is a way to still keep them from seeing the lump of cash, maybe if your kids are not longer "dependents".