How to instill a strong work ethic in kids if you’ve FIREd

[vand]

One thing that potentially bugs me is that if and when I RE my daughter will still be young and impressionable, and I want her to have a strong work ethic instilled in her from the example I set just as I got from my parents.

Sitting around in my PJs and telling her that I’m retired and don’t need to go to work like everyone else isn’t going to cut it, and I don’t think it’d be setting the right example of how to go about life.

Do others struggle with this?

[2Birds1Stone]

You send them to the coal lithium mines while they're still young. Factories were so last century

[cats]

I have struggled with this also.  Some thoughts I've had:

1) I had a SAHP. I don't think she was sitting around in her PJs all day.
2) Related, keeping a home nice and well-maintained *is* work (or you outsource a ton of stuff and then it's very expensive, so requires extra work outside the home).  I would argue that most families with 2 FT jobs are overworked and probably neglecting or overspending on a lot of home/personal stuff.
3) It's quite possible I'm going to come up with some sort of "hobby job" or volunteer work.
5) My in-laws retired early and DH is kind of a workaholic (even in retirement, he is super busy with projects).  My father retired around 65 and I'm kinda lazy compared to DH.
6) I'm not sure how much kids absorb about their parents work or the value of it.  I know my dad went off to an office every day for ~40 years, I really have very little idea how much (if any) of that work added value to society, so if I were to start thinking about why I should emulate my father, it would just be "because I need a paycheck".  So I think it's probably better to teach your kid some money skills and then they can be motivated to earn whatever they need to finance their desired lifestyle.  I also know my dad was pretty overloaded with responsibilities (somewhat by choice, he did a LOT of volunteer work) and I think it ultimately had a really negative effect on my relationship with him.  Stressed out with a drinking problem is not really something I want to model for my kids either, you know?

[GilesMM]

If you are lazy in some fashion they will see that regardless of whether you have a job or not.  You are what you are.

[marble_faun]

You can still be doing industrious things post-FIRE. Your identity doesn't need to be "unemployed layabout." You can be an artist, or home renovator, or baker, or whatever it is you want to be doing.

Also when she is old enough to understand, you can explain the work/frugality mindset that got you to FIRE and freed you from regular work.

[Laura33]

You know, there was a thread about this a couple of years ago that would be worth reviewing if you can find it. 

To me, the short answer is that the question itself is based on a false premise, i.e., that the "work" in "work ethic" means "leave the house for 40-80 hrs/week to work for pay."  That's just wrong.

Kids watch how you live and what you value -- and they determine what you value by watching what you do.  If they see you regularly taking care of the house, cooking food to put on the table, spending weekend days doing chores around the house or some sort of productive hobby, maybe volunteering for some cause that you care about, they will learn that you value taking care of stuff that needs to be taken care of and using your time productively.  If you are open with them about your finances, your salary, your savings, etc., they will learn that working at a paid job can be an important value, too, because it gives you the $$ you need to do all of those other things.  But it is only a part of the picture.

Moreover, paid work is not even the most important part of the picture.  I mean, if you work 60 hrs/week, then watch TV every night and weekend, are you teaching your kid the value of work?  They're not there to see you put in the effort when you're in the office; all they're probably learning is "work is super exhausting, and boy I don't want to do that."  If you want your kid to learn a work ethic when you're out of the house doing invisible stuff for 60 hrs/week, you're going to need to spend a lot of time at home talking about what you did that day, what was good, what was bad, the challenges and successes and disappointments -- they need visibility into what "work a paid job" actually means. 

But even then, kids get 10x more from what they see than from what they hear.  So rather than chase a red herring ("how can I explain to my kids how important it is to work when I don't have paid employment anymore?"), focus on what you actually do for all those various hours when you're around your kids.  That's what matters.  Are you engaged, are you challenging yourself, are you responsible about getting things done even when you don't want to, do you put effort in to making the world a little better for someone else, etc. etc. etc.  That's what "work" actually is -- and that's the kind of "work" kids can see, understand, and get excited about.*  And, conveniently, it's the kind of work that you can in fact do even more of once you FIRE and no longer have to worry about that pesky paycheck.


*As my kids are moving toward late HS/late college, I have shown them both MMM's "Shockingly Simple Math."  DS looked at me like I was out of my mind -- to him, the reason he is going to go to college and get a job is because he wants to build robots and learn cool stuff; saving huge amounts of money to quit that sooner was completely counterintuitive, because he's in it for the work itself, not the money.  I had to reframe the issue as having the financial freedom to take the job you want vs. the job that pays the most; then it clicked in.

[Cranky]

I was a sahm for many years, and frankly, getting a job was kind of restful. Now I'm retired and still working hard at keeping a house running - hunting bargains at the store, cooking good meals, hanging out the laundry, gardening.

So, I'm pretty sure that you can effectively demonstrate the value of working hard at things that you love, or even at things that just plain need doing, without going to a job every day.

[Metalcat]

I don't think kids glean much about your "work ethic" from your absence.

Like others have said, there are a lot of ways to convey discipline, hard work, and reward by actually spending time with your kids in ways that they can actually comprehend.

With my dad, I learned the value of hard work through volunteering, slaving away in our kitchen to make massive volumes of food for fundraising events, and then putting in a 12-16 hour day the next day for the actual event. Insane amounts of work, and an enormous sense of responsibility and satisfaction.

We lived in the country so hard work was just normal life. He had been a high paid corporate executive consultant before he retired in his 40s and I have no recollection of that time aside from his absence.

Then he "went back to work" when he remarried a woman who owned a store and they ran it together, and again, he was just kind of absent.

It was the work we did *together* that was the most impactful on my work ethic and sense of civic duty. I really don't think you can go wrong in terms of impacting your kids by investing in time and focus on them.

I learned WAY MORE about corporate consulting by spending time with my dad who told me all about it than by not spending time with my dad because he was so busy with work.

[Freedomin5]

Life is about so much more than going to work. And being FI gives us the freedoms to live the life we want. DH took a year-long sabbatical when DD was 7 years old. During that year, he designed and worked on several cool projects, and he invited DD to join him in the journey. She got to learn lots of new coding tools and STEM concepts. Being FI meant being able to do cool stuff without having to worry about money.

Both of us plan to RE in a year or two, when DD is 10 years old. Again, it’s not tied to laziness or poor work ethic. RE means having the freedom to do what we are passionate about, without having to worry about money. And having the time and flexibility to meet DD’s needs, because just because you’re retired from a job, it doesn’t mean you’re retired from being a parent. And at certain developmental ages and stages, that might mean getting up at 6 am, not because you need to get ready for work, but because you need to spend time with your child in the morning to get them ready for school.

I think our kids appreciate when we have the time and freedom to prioritize caring for and parenting them.

[Sibley]

Do you start a project and then leave it half finished, forever? Poor work ethic.

Do you start a project, do half ass work but get it done? Better, but not great.

Do you start a project, do a good job, and get it done? Good work ethic.

Kids watch what you do. Demonstrate the qualities you want them to have.

[vand]

Problem with all these suggestions is that yes, you can do all that and keep a high standard, but it doesn't explain the idea of employment to youngster.  Most people will work for an employer - I remember all the various jobs that both my parents had well, and what they did to make ends meet.

You can get up, do housework, volunteering to a very high standard, but it doesn't help them with the idea that to make it in life most of them are going to need to be good at becoming a quality employee.

[MoneyTree]

Problem with all these suggestions is that yes, you can do all that and keep a high standard, but it doesn't explain the idea of employment to youngster.  Most people will work for an employer - I remember all the various jobs that both my parents had well, and what they did to make ends meet.

You can get up, do housework, volunteering to a very high standard, but it doesn't help them with the idea that to make it in life most of them are going to need to be good at becoming a quality employee.

But you going to work does not help them understand what a good employee is. I'd argue that  that keeping a high standard in volunteering and housework is precisely the kind of work ethic that makes one a good employee. The best employees I've had are the ones that have a sense of personal responsibility and ownership of what they do in their job. Quite frankly, the worst employees are the ones that are most "employee-like", who see it as working for someone else, and just trying to keep up appearances.

[Padonak]

As soon as they're old enough to legally work, get them a job and use their salary to lower your withdrawal rate

[Freedomin5]

Problem with all these suggestions is that yes, you can do all that and keep a high standard, but it doesn't explain the idea of employment to youngster.  Most people will work for an employer - I remember all the various jobs that both my parents had well, and what they did to make ends meet.

You can get up, do housework, volunteering to a very high standard, but it doesn't help them with the idea that to make it in life most of them are going to need to be good at becoming a quality employee.

I don’t know if it’s necessary for my kid to learn how to be a good employee. I’d rather her learn how to be the boss/owner. Or how to not need to be an employee at all because she has many little green soldiers working for her.

[cats]

Problem with all these suggestions is that yes, you can do all that and keep a high standard, but it doesn't explain the idea of employment to youngster.  Most people will work for an employer - I remember all the various jobs that both my parents had well, and what they did to make ends meet.

You can get up, do housework, volunteering to a very high standard, but it doesn't help them with the idea that to make it in life most of them are going to need to be good at becoming a quality employee.

I don’t know if it’s necessary for my kid to learn how to be a good employee. I’d rather her learn how to be the boss/owner. Or how to not need to be an employee at all because she has many little green soldiers working for her.

I have no freaking clue what my dad did at the office to be a good (or bad) employee. Having now spent some time working myself I would say that things like people skills, finishing what you start, knowing when/how to sat "no" without being an asshole, understanding that sometimes boring tasks have value, curiousity about the company and a desire to improve whatever product or service is being delivered are all valuable skills. These are all things you can try to teach your kid by working on projects or extracurriculars that will hone those skills, by establishing household routines and expecting them to participate, etc. Going off to an office is not going to teach them that.

[Metalcat]

Problem with all these suggestions is that yes, you can do all that and keep a high standard, but it doesn't explain the idea of employment to youngster.  Most people will work for an employer - I remember all the various jobs that both my parents had well, and what they did to make ends meet.

You can get up, do housework, volunteering to a very high standard, but it doesn't help them with the idea that to make it in life most of them are going to need to be good at becoming a quality employee.

I don’t know if it’s necessary for my kid to learn how to be a good employee. I’d rather her learn how to be the boss/owner. Or how to not need to be an employee at all because she has many little green soldiers working for her.

I have no freaking clue what my dad did at the office to be a good (or bad) employee. Having now spent some time working myself I would say that things like people skills, finishing what you start, knowing when/how to sat "no" without being an asshole, understanding that sometimes boring tasks have value, curiousity about the company and a desire to improve whatever product or service is being delivered are all valuable skills. These are all things you can try to teach your kid by working on projects or extracurriculars that will hone those skills, by establishing household routines and expecting them to participate, etc. Going off to an office is not going to teach them that.

As I said above, I learned A LOT from my father about his professional career, then his executive consulting career...from him telling me about it while he was not working and spending A LOT of time with me instilling in me the joy of education and productivity.

Kids have zero frame of reference for what "jobs" are when their parents aren't there.

[iris lily]

If in retirement you sit around in your PJs all day, I would suggest that probably you need to not retire. That is not a good life.

I truly cannot understand people who are “bored “in retirement.. I cannot grok it. And yes I sit around a lot of time in my PJs But I’m never bored. Maybe I could convince my kids if it was important that I am doing digital work on a screen.

But as long as you are active doing things for your community, in your community, for your physical well-being, and for the well-being of your family is there really something to demonstrate to her the value of punching a time clock?

[Chris Pascale]

At 14 they get working papers and we (they) go door to door seeking employment.

I think sports and school can also be credited with hard work - working toward a goal.

[Laura33]

Problem with all these suggestions is that yes, you can do all that and keep a high standard, but it doesn't explain the idea of employment to youngster.  Most people will work for an employer - I remember all the various jobs that both my parents had well, and what they did to make ends meet.

You can get up, do housework, volunteering to a very high standard, but it doesn't help them with the idea that to make it in life most of them are going to need to be good at becoming a quality employee.

Do you want your kid to have a good work ethic, or do you want them to be a good employee?  Those are fundamentally different concepts -- it's a Venn diagram with circles that overlap a bit, but you'd be surprised how much is in the not-overlapping part.  Figure out what you want to teach first.

But in either event, the same holds true:  how in the world can your kid learn about being a good employee when all they see is that you're gone 40-60 hrs/week?  They don't see what you do.  At most, you can lecture them at home about how you need to sacrifice this and be responsible that -- which will make about as much of an impression as all the other parental lectures.

You know what teaches you to be a good employee?  A job.  So if that's your priority, encourage your kid to get one early on.  And feel free to provide advice as they run into questions and issues while executing that job.  One major benefit of starting jobs in MS/HS:  the kid's around all of the time to hear your advice -- and if you have a good relationship, they may even listen to it.* ;-)  Another major benefit:  the stakes are very, very low, so kids can safely learn how to be a good employee by periodically not being a good employee and suffering the consequences.  No one ever gets it all right the first time, no matter how well-meaning the parental advice; better to have them in a place where they can fail safely, pick themselves back up, and start again.

Your job is to teach your kid how to be a good human.  Do that, and the rest will take care of itself.


*My kid's in college, with her first serious job (salary-type vs. hourly), and she was texting me to ask about how to frame up a work email.  She intuited that it should be different than how she emails her professors, but no one had taught her how to do it, so I helped. 

[dividendman]

As soon as they're old enough to legally work, get them a job and use their salary to lower your withdrawal rate

LOL

[curious_george]

I had multiple parental figures in my life growing up.

I don't think a parent's absence for 40-60 hours really instills a strong work ethic in a child.

My biological father regularly worked 60-80 hours a week. You know what I learned from him about work ethic? Jack Shit. I have no childhood memories of him at all except listening to him shifting gears every morning as he drove away to work around the time I woke up. While he was working I was at home goofing off.

I was taken away for abuse and neglect and went to a few different foster homes.

As a teenager, the last foster home I was at, my foster dad put my ass to work. Laundry, dishes, mowing the grass, taking out the trash, and working at fast food on the evenings and weekends. I had to give him about half my income to 'help pay the mortgage' he said.

When I turned 18 I was working full time while going to college full time while fixing up foreclosed houses on the weekend. All I did was work and learn.

You know which parent gave me this work ethic? The foster parent who sent my ass to work.