Author Topic: explaining FIRE to kids in consumer mode  (Read 4651 times)

Runrooster

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explaining FIRE to kids in consumer mode
« on: June 05, 2015, 06:50:00 PM »
I've been struggling with this issue for about two years.  I used to have good relationships with my niece and nephew who have logged countless free babysitting hours. Their parents don't really understand my "life of poverty" but it doesn't bother them.  But as the kids grew, they became more and more, I don't know, critical and confused and embarrassed? Well, I think some of this is coming from the parents who are too tactful to express their distaste to my face.

Of course the parents are in top 3% earnings bracket, but I was primed to make more than my brother when I left.  I probably don't need to justify myself here, but the kids are wholesale consumers.  My car isn't nice enough, my clothes/ decorations arent nice enough (guilty but more because I don't care about that), I don't go on expensive vacations (been there done that).  One of the battles that got tiring for me was restaurant choice.  I happen to prefer ethnic dives that get high reviews on yelp, they like chain restaurants with nice tablecloths and bland seasonings. I mean they're kids (14 and 10 now) they basically order chicken nuggets and French fries or pizza at every meal.  My latest irritation was being asked to taxi the kid to a 3 hour weekend activity, which meant waiting, and she spent the entire ride texting her friends like I wasn't even a person.

Its sad, this is family, but these kids are strangers as much as the grandmother who constantly told me to get married and have babies.  I'll work on that grandma, and then don't see her for another 5 years.

former player

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Re: explaining FIRE to kids in consumer mode
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2015, 02:21:59 AM »
Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings....

Kids learn from their parents, but also from their peer groups, and as they get older the influence of their peer groups gets bigger and bigger.  Also, they pick things up which are not necessarily expressly stated.  It is possible your sibling and their SO are saying express things about your lifestyle, but also that they are making unconscious "statements" about your lifestyle that their kids are picking up on.  It is also possible that your niece and nephew are just picking up their attitudes from their friends and cohorts at school and other activities.

I suspect that there is not much you can do about what they are learning from all these sources.  Even if you successfully have a talk with your sibling about it, the chances of that changing much are not great: your sibling may be unable or unwilling to change, their SO may be unable or unwilling to change, and there is nothing you can do about the peer-group pressure.

What I think you can do is try and teach your niece and nephew some good manners, at least around you.  Don't try to readjust their underlying thoughts.  Do let them know what good manners are and insist on them around you: for instance, if someone is doing you a favour by offering you a lift, you do not criticise the car in which they are doing it and you make polite conversation for at least a part of the journey (eg for the first 15 minutes before asking if they can get their phone out.  They need to know what is bad manners and unacceptable behaviour and have that thoroughly squashed out of them.  Turn the car around and take them home if they break your rules.

I wouldn't worry too much about their taste in food: children and young teenagers often have bland tastes in food and only expand their palates later in their teenage years.  If you can get the odd fruit or vegetable down them, that would be great, and otherwise let them stick with the blandest option on the menu.  Although I wouldn't personally put up with a "battle" about the restaurant choice: offer them a choice of two which are acceptable to you and if they don't want to go to either of them then take them home hungry.

Runrooster

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Re: explaining FIRE to kids in consumer mode
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2015, 04:18:42 AM »
Thanks former player.  I should explain my frustration is that they criticize restaurant choices the adults are making even though they're not gourmet eaters.  They're gonna eat the same thing wherever we go, but theyre actually looking things up on Zagat, and saying this chain restaurant is ranked higher.  And my brother acts like we have to cave to their drama.  Its all about flash and no substance.

I do try to have conversations about manners, but only when I see them being rude to other people. Its harder when my brother has arranged for me to drive her, and she ignores the fact that gee I have time to spend with her while both her parents are working on Sundays.  I don't feel like I can demand that she shows an interest in me, you know?

I guess I'm not ready to write her off, she's smart and works hard in school and is basically a good kid.  She just hasn't made the connection between buying stuff and the environment or stress and working too much.  I worry more about her brother who isn't doing well in school and seems unlikely to get into the top paying professions.  But they live in this bubble where "anything less than 200k means your life is over."

former player

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Re: explaining FIRE to kids in consumer mode
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2015, 06:07:18 AM »
Oy.  You are allowed to stand up for yourself as well as for others, you know.  And teaching kids that they can afford to be rude to close family is a very bad idea which will cause them considerable difficulties when they start to have families of their own.  (I have personal experience of a family member who was wonderful to everyone outside the immediate family and a complete sh1t to those inside it, and it seriously screws up the family dynamic.)  So please, for their good and yours, extend the requirement for good manners to yourself as well as others.  I agree there is not much you can do when your brother is there if he will not step up to the plate and be a father to them, but when he is not there you are the responsible adult and need to take charge.

It's the 14 year old who can't manage even 15 minutes conversation with you?  Then sorry, you are not available to drive her to whatever it is she is wanting to go to.  Either she comes around and starts conversing politely for a minimum of 15 minutes with her phone off, or the trip didn't matter enough to her in the first place for you to be giving up your Sunday to it.

As to the consumerist/environmental thing, I think all you can do at the moment is make her aware of your views without expecting her to follow you.  Just making her aware that there are other ways of looking at these things will give her a hook to hang a future change of views on.

And letting the 10 year old know that there is life outside his immediate family's bubble, and that you are there to help him navigate his way if he needs it would be a very valuable thing to do for him.

Congratulations on being such a good aunt/uncle.

Runrooster

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Re: explaining FIRE to kids in consumer mode
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2015, 07:53:31 AM »
I hear you former player, but I feel like I'm treading a fine line between allowing kids to be curious/ unfiltered/ comfortable and allowing them to be rude. Texting, for example, is a longstanding pet peeve about people who can't focus on the person/ environment they're in.  I don't see her as often as I used to, so it should be easy to come up with conversations about her week, plans, concerns.  If I have to force it, why bother? 

One of my responses to the driving thing is that I will drive to do activities with the kids or family, I will not simply chauffeur them.  I can take them to activities I like, or things I want to try out, whether that's hiking or the pool or plays or museums. There's really no reason the kids can't do activities within biking distance of home, or activities that can carpool with other parents in the area. 

That's also my response to the restaurant issue, that if the extended family wants to get together for a birthday, hallmark holiday, whatever, let's make an evening of cooking/ grilling and eating at home.  The niece (14) is actually good at this, and I told the nephew it was time to step up his game, he can contribute one dish even if its just boiled corn.

Another suggestion I made was that we have grandma/grandpa tell one story about their life at the kids age.  Grandma was the second of 8 kids in a third world country, so she had her hands full helping.  Grandpa used to have to do homework by candlelight while sharing a textbook with another kid.  I think it provided a small wake up call.

Edit: dobedo I would argue that its not my lifestyle that's unusual, its the 3% lifestyle.  I don't think its something they will grow out of without some conversations, though life will hand them some perspective.  I hope they would both say they admire martin Luther king over Paris Hilton but right now they conflate success and character with money.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 08:26:20 AM by Runrooster »

StockBeard

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Re: explaining FIRE to kids in consumer mode
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2015, 01:15:33 PM »
(Sorry, random brain dump here, not very well structured...)

I think there are a few things going on there. Some of the things I read from you make me think that maybe you resent the parents for some of their education choices? I would take that out of the equation.

I got recently into an argument with a friend who made a few snarky comments about how my kids were raised. The thing is, raising kids is a series of compromises between you and your significant other, as well as you and your kids. People who don't have kids (I assume that's your case?) have a hard time understanding the amount of micro-compromises that go into this thing.

I'd get an agreement with the parents that when the kids are with you, they should "respect your authority" and your choices. That sounds like the very least. As far as them criticizing your life choices... I've told mean things to my grandparents as a kid, I regret saying those things today, but all kids do it. I wouldn't take it too personally? It's just what teenagers do.

Also depends how much you like spending time with the kids. I never thought to much of it, but my aunt used to spend lots of time with us, and the decision on what to do, where to go, etc... where balanced. Just like you shouldn't have to go everything they want, go everywhere they want to take you, you should sometimes accept their choices as well?

Generally, I don't think kids will accept too much authority from an aunt. I would really discuss with the parents rather than try to change the kids yourself. Or you might face a situation where they actually hate spending time with you

Runrooster

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Re: explaining FIRE to kids in consumer mode
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2015, 06:28:51 AM »
Hi wololo, I just saw your reply. 

1. I have no idea what you mean about education. I don't want to be their chauffeur, and that has nothing to do with the activities they've chosen.  The parents have stressful work lives and think every missed activity is an emergency I should solve.  I think these emergencies are not my problem.

2. I hear you on the kids hating me, but right now I'm expected to do whatever the kids want, 100%, and I "hate" them.  There is no authority passed onto me, which is fine with a paid babysitter.  At this point the kids will not do something they don't want to do, ever, so my answer is we find activities we both enjoy or my sibling hires someone to be their taxi service.

3.  I'm sorry you were a jerk to your grandparents, and I'm sorry your parents didn't teach you better manners.  That said, these are my 7th and 8th niece/nephews, and the other ones were fine. 

ender

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Re: explaining FIRE to kids in consumer mode
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2015, 07:25:30 AM »
In many families, kids basically "run" the family. Their wants, desires, wishes, etc are what determine how the family behaves.

Is it possible that in your brother/sister-in-law basically always are giving into whatever the kids want? If the kids are used to parents acting that way, well... it's probably that is what is happening when you are around them.

Everything you are writing suggests to me that the kids are used to getting their way all the time. Frankly in that situation I would have a conversation with your brother and talk about that you don't feel like you can enable the kids anymore, and if they want someone to be the kids chauffeur, you are not the right person.

I don't understand the motivation here for you to provide the free babysitting anyways if it obviously bothers you - is there a reason why you are voluntarily doing this to yourself? It sounds like you need to establish boundaries with their parents.

Runrooster

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Re: explaining FIRE to kids in consumer mode
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2015, 08:34:35 AM »
Hi ender, the kids have their own set of rules and expectations they have to follow, but they only answer to mom and dad.  It isn't unusual for me to say "your Dad asked me to..." and have the kids make a phone call to confirm that the orders came from above.  Then the parents wonder why their free babysitters are ineffective at getting the kids to eat right or do their homework.

I sort of laughed at wololo's threat that the kids will hate me: oh, you mean they won't invite me to spend $2000 to attend their destination wedding in Bali, I'm so sad.  Or you mean they won't drop by on my birthday, or they won't cheer me as I finish a marathon?  They already don't do these things.  I'm obviously feeling more cynical about this after my most recent weekend with the family.

ender

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Re: explaining FIRE to kids in consumer mode
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2015, 09:25:05 AM »
Hi ender, the kids have their own set of rules and expectations they have to follow, but they only answer to mom and dad.  It isn't unusual for me to say "your Dad asked me to..." and have the kids make a phone call to confirm that the orders came from above.  Then the parents wonder why their free babysitters are ineffective at getting the kids to eat right or do their homework.

I sort of laughed at wololo's threat that the kids will hate me: oh, you mean they won't invite me to spend $2000 to attend their destination wedding in Bali, I'm so sad.  Or you mean they won't drop by on my birthday, or they won't cheer me as I finish a marathon?  They already don't do these things.  I'm obviously feeling more cynical about this after my most recent weekend with the family.

I still am missing - why do you continue to give them free babysitting? This is obviously really annoying for you and I don't "get it" ???

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Re: explaining FIRE to kids in consumer mode
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2015, 09:41:48 AM »
Runrooster: please reclaim your life from these people who are treating you like an unpaid babysitter rather than a beloved sister and aunt.  I hope you have better things to do with your life - and if you don't, go out and get some!

"Sorry, I'm not available to babysit on Sundays now because [I'm going to the museum/art gallery/hiking with a new group/learning to sail/helping out at the animal shelter/fundraising for the women's refuge]."

Also, spend more time with your other nieces and nephews.  Don't see this pair unless their parents are with them.  If your brother and his wife want to know why you are no longer seeing his children without him there, tell him that he may not know that when they are not with their parents, their manners are not good enough for you to want to spend time with them, and you are hoping that they will grow better manners when they are older.

Good luck - and do look after yourself, first and most.

Ellsie Equanimity

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Re: explaining FIRE to kids in consumer mode
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2015, 08:31:44 AM »
I used to have good relationships with my niece and nephew who have logged countless free babysitting hours. . .

Of course the parents are in top 3% earnings bracket, but I was primed to make more than my brother when I left. . .

Well, I think some of this is coming from the parents who are too tactful to express their distaste to my face.

Are you holding a grudge? Over free babysitting? Or whatever the backstory and current state is with your respective incomes? Is it the parents you're more upset with than the kids?

But as the kids grew, they became more and more, I don't know, critical and confused and embarrassed?

the kids are wholesale consumers.  My car isn't nice enough, my clothes/ decorations arent nice enough (guilty but more because I don't care about that), I don't go on expensive vacations (been there done that).  One of the battles that got tiring for me was restaurant choice. . . she spent the entire ride texting her friends like I wasn't even a person.

these kids are strangers as much as the grandmother who constantly told me to get married and have babies.  I'll work on that grandma, and then don't see her for another 5 years.

They sound like pretty typical pre-teen/teenagers, especially given your few descriptions of parenting style. Cut them a little slack for not being mature adults yet - (doesn't mean it's ok or acceptable, and you shouldn't communicate to them that it is, just means you recognize that they have limitations).

What does "work on" someone mean to you? Work on building a relationship? Or work on teaching them your point of view? Do you like these kids and want to spend time with them, or not? Are you trying to have a relationship or influence them to live like you? Given various things you say, sometimes you "hate" the kids, sometimes you talk about relationship building stuff, and sometimes you talk about it like they are a project for you to perfect. I am not sure what you really want.

I don't feel like I can demand that she shows an interest in me, you know?

You can. I wouldn't demand it 100% and I would recognize that kids are naturally self-centered and are only learning (with various degrees of success) to extend their focus to others (adults are the same way really, just with hopefully more practice and better success) and I would be sure to also show an interest in her and her interests. But you can have some sort of rule set up that does not allow whatever you feel is an unacceptable level of rudeness.

I don't see her as often as I used to, so it should be easy to come up with conversations about her week, plans, concerns.  If I have to force it, why bother? 

If you don't see her as often as you used to, it might be all the harder to come up with conversations. Conversation isn't easy for everyone, couple that with the craziness of being a teenager and not being mature and now trying to relate to your older relative who you see less...forcing it may be necessary to connect, and that's ok.

I guess I'm not ready to write her off, she's smart and works hard in school and is basically a good kid.  She just hasn't made the connection between buying stuff and the environment or stress and working too much.  I worry more about her brother who isn't doing well in school and seems unlikely to get into the top paying professions.  But they live in this bubble where "anything less than 200k means your life is over."

Again, what is your primary goal? Having a relationship with your niece and nephew? Or helping them see your point of view? There may be some overlap and that's ok. But if it's all about trying to get them to see your point of view and appreciate it, at this time in their lives you will probably just all end up unhappy. If the greater emphasis is on the relationship, then I think you can maintain that, with some work and some just acceptance.

Back to the parents though -

One of my responses to the driving thing is that I will drive to do activities with the kids or family, I will not simply chauffeur them.  I can take them to activities I like, or things I want to try out, whether that's hiking or the pool or plays or museums. There's really no reason the kids can't do activities within biking distance of home, or activities that can carpool with other parents in the area. 

That's also my response to the restaurant issue, that if the extended family wants to get together for a birthday, hallmark holiday, whatever, let's make an evening of cooking/ grilling and eating at home.  The niece (14) is actually good at this, and I told the nephew it was time to step up his game, he can contribute one dish even if its just boiled corn.

Sounds great.

Hi ender, the kids have their own set of rules and expectations they have to follow, but they only answer to mom and dad.  It isn't unusual for me to say "your Dad asked me to..." and have the kids make a phone call to confirm that the orders came from above.  Then the parents wonder why their free babysitters are ineffective at getting the kids to eat right or do their homework.

If you are the babysitter, you need to have the authority. Yes, you ultimately answer to Mom and Dad and shouldn't be subverting their authority when they are gone, but when you are in charge you have to be able to be in charge. This means a) Mom and Dad have to support that, b) you can carry out consequences. If possible, I would suggest talking to the parents about your frustration and setting some mutually agreed upon rules and consequences. Then you ask the parents to enforce to the children that they need to mind you when you are in charge. If you have pre-agreed upon rules and consequences the parents should feel ok about giving you that authority. You may have to compromise a bit on what you want the rules to be, but these aren't your kids, you're not the parent, you are just standing in for Mom and Dad, and you should more or less follow their parenting style in major things. That said, you don't have to put up with stuff you are really uncomfortable with. Talk to the parents and if you can't come up with something you can both be ok with, tell them you are not comfortable babysitting under that set-up and discuss that you would still like to have a relationship with the kids but it will have to be when they are around.

Depending on lots of factors this could be a breeze and go great or it could be tricky and sensitive conversations. I would spend some time considering what you want and what you are willing to put up with for it. It sounds like you are pretty committed to family. I think that's awesome and good for you! But boundaries are ok, too - healthy even. Communication is key to not just getting more and more frustrated and cynical. I hope you're able to work things out ok!

 

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