Author Topic: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted  (Read 5570 times)

Steeze

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Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« on: October 15, 2020, 07:39:33 AM »
TL;DR

1-2-3 Magic - Thomas Phelan
The Drama Of The Gift Child - Alice Miller
Raising Your Spirited Child - Mary Sheedy Kurcinka
How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
Positive Discipline - Jane Nelsen
Positive Discipline The First Three Years - Jane Nelsen
Kids are worth it - Barbara Coloroso
Breaking the Good Mom Myth - Alyson Schafer
Honey I Wrecked the Kids - Alyson Schafer
Ain't Misbehavin': Tactics for Tantrums, Meltdowns, Bedtime Blues - Alyson Schafer
Precious Little Sleep - Alexis Dubief
Parenting with Love and Logic - Foster W. Cline
Love and Logic Magic for Early Childhood: Practical Parenting from Birth to Six Years - Jim Fay
Parenting from the Inside Out - Daniel Siegel
The Whole Brain Child - Daniel Siegel
The First Three Years - Burton L. White
Eat and Feed with Joy - Ellen Satter



My wife and I are discussing how we intend on disciplining our children. We have our first due in the spring, so we have plenty of time to learn. A good friend has a 2-year old and is starting to tell us about all the fun.

We spoke about how we were raised and it seems both of us were spanked with a belt / wooden spoon / wooden paddle if we didn't do what we were asked, lied, or embarrassed our parents. We were rarely yelled at, and never put in time out or grounded. I do not recall ever having my toys taken away as punishment.

While we seemed to turn out fine with that system, I am not sure that is going to fly in today's culture. Further I am sure there have been peer reviewed studies on the subject and books written about those studies.

So - does anyone have a book they can recommend that describes an effective system of positive/negative reinforcement, and appropriate expectations for different age groups?

I have a text book on childhood development that discusses the psychology & motivation of children at different ages, but doesn't go as far as prescribing an approach to discipline.

I asked some other friends about their childhood and got some random responses such as kneeling on rice while balancing books or writing, "I will not disrespect my parents and will do what I am told" 100x.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 09:48:15 AM by Steeze »

Laura33

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2020, 09:02:23 AM »
First, I am glad you are open to reading and learning rather than just assuming that what worked for you will work for your kids.  The first thing to realize is that each kid has a different temperament and different driver, and sometimes that temperament meshes with yours, while other times it is completely different.  But it is your job as parent to figure out how to manage the kid you have, not some vision in your head about what a kid should be and how a kid should react.  Because the reality is that while how you were raised worked for you, it doesn't work so well for others.  (My husband was raised by a couple of yellers, and he tends to be very reactive/angry with our kids.  When we talked about it, he'd always say "it worked for me."  But the reality is it didn't work out so well for his sister, who had a bad relationship with her parents for years and still has some deep insecurities that make her a fundamentally annoying person in some ways).

The most important thing I figured out is that "negative reinforcement" is the least-effective way to manage kids -- in particular, the very reactive, angry, lashing-out kind of negative reinforcement.  Kids need to feel secure above all; they recognize that they are weak and vulnerable, and so they need to know that their big, strong parents will always be the rock they can hang on to.  So when someone as powerless as them can knock that rock off-balance just by doing something as simple as crying or yelling, that is very, very scary to a little kid.  Kids need boundaries and rules and consequences, of course.  But they need to be age-appropriate for one (getting mad at a toddler for having a meltdown is really stupid, because they are literally not mature enough to calm themselves down and use their words), and they need to be implemented very dispassionately and calmly.  I think of my Granny:  I cannot once ever remember her raising her voice at us, and yet you just knew you didn't cross Granny.  She just had that kind of calm authority to her.  There is much more power in calmness and managing your own emotions than there is in losing it and becoming a giant angry bear.  Added bonus is it's also 100x more effective.

For books, I'd suggest 1-2-3 Magic.  That is the book that really emphasized the need to stay calm and unmoved -- that in fact my getting angry was just amping up my DD into even worse behavior.  There is an image of a horse standing in a field, with a horsefly buzzing around, and the horse is just ignoring it and periodically swats the fly with its tail -- that has stuck with me for 15 years now.  The concept is that you establish a clear (age-appropriate!) expectation and consequence, you let kids know calmly when they are approaching that boundary, and when they continue to do so, you execute the consequence immediately and dispassionately -- every time, no talking, no anger.  It helped me, because turns out I was ignoring little stuff in the hope that I'd get the kid out the door or to bed or whatever, until some little thing pushed me over the edge.  By making me stop and note the small things, it helped me not get so wound up.  But then you also have to balance that with noticing the things your kid does right, and giving positive attention for the "right" behavior -- even just the baby steps.

The other book I'd keep in mind if you have a particularly difficult child is "Your Spirited Child."  I hesitate to recommend that as a general rule, because it can come across as a little too "lenient" if you're into law-and-order-type parenting.  But it absolutely saved my relationship with DD.  Some kids are born without filters; lights are too bright, noises are too loud, the line on the socks or tag on the shirt is a constant irritant.  If you end up with one of those kids, traditional parenting methods DO NOT WORK.  Trust me: I was raised with "ignore a tantrum," but if you ignored my DD, she'd end up with epic, hour-long tantrums where she'd get so out of control she'd freak herself out.  I had to unlearn everything I thought I knew in order to become the kind of parent that my DD needed.  (Of course, all the traditional methods worked just fine on my DS a few years later -- made me feel like a much better parent!)

One final note:  no matter how you end up managing your kids, always, always make them feel like they are good enough and smart enough and wonderful humans, even when they are at their most unlovable.  I spent a long time thinking that it was my job to "fix" my DD's flaws -- particularly all the things that she did that were the same mistakes I had made.  I wanted to save her from all that!  But I ultimately realized that there is a whole big wide world out there that will be happy to tear her down and pick apart her every decision.  What she really needed was someone who thought she was awesome just as she was.  So I learned to bite my tongue about the little stuff and just set some pretty clear rules, with as much personal freedom and choice for her as possible, and I trusted her to navigate the rest.  Had to bite my nails a few times, but it was wonderful to watch her blossom. 

Steeze

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2020, 12:05:48 PM »
@Laura33  -  Thanks for the book suggestions. I read the summary for 1-2-3 Magic and will be requesting from the library. Seems like a pretty straight forward approach. I will check out the other title later as well.

Also - thank you for the valuable insight. I tend to think of this in an authoritative way. It is a good reminder that what I think is the ideal response is not necessarily the response that is going to yield the results I expect. The best response will be dependent on the child and will be learned through some trial and error.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 12:34:04 PM by Steeze »

cool7hand

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2020, 01:04:19 PM »
You might consider reading about what happens when a parent fails to distinguish between what's best for your child and whether your neuroses are causing you to make your child act in a certain way because of those neuroses. Try The Drama Of The Gift Child, by Alice Miller.

Laura33

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2020, 01:14:53 PM »
I tend to think of this in an authoritative way. It is a good reminder that what I think is the ideal response is not necessarily the response that is going to yield the results I expect. The best response will be dependent on the child and will be learned through some trial and error.

That is exactly the right attitude, FWIW; good for you for really evaluating yourself and thinking about these things.  A lot of people never make that shift.  The best thing you can do for your future kid is to be prepared for everything you think to be wrong, and just go with it.  ;-)  The good news is that 95% of all the stuff you fret about matters far less in the end than you think it does at the time.

Think of it as the difference between "authoritative" and "authoritarian."  You are always, always the last word.  But it helps if you are also wise enough to reserve that last word for the times when it really matters, and to give your kid the love and independence to explore and learn their own way in all the times in-between.

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2020, 01:21:54 PM »
Ditto to everything Laura said. Your individual child will dictate the type of parenting he or she needs. I'd suggest reading a bunch of different books with different views so you'll have a big pool of tricks to pull from. This advice applies especially to books about how to get your baby to sleep, which is the first behavioural challenge most parents face. Again, your child dictates the best approach, you don't get to pick ;-) This is the biggest lesson in parenting and it will whack you across the face anytime you start to think you're actually in control of anything. You are not in charge here. You can steer the boat a bit, but the kid is actually the one charge. It's fantastic though. I've learned so much from my kids and they've molded me into a much better person as a result.

I strongly dislike the term discipline and I almost never "discipline" my kids. If things have deteriorated that far then I've probably massively screwed up somewhere along the line by ignoring what they were trying to tell me ages ago or expecting too much from them. I mean, they still have consequences for whatever choices they make, but as much as possible DH and I try to set them up for success as much as possible. Kids almost universally want to please their parents and if you show them how to do it, most of them will do whatever then can to comply. The outside world does a good enough job of tearing them down, they don't need more of that at home.

Be aware that authoritarian parenting can be a disaster for a sensitive child. If DH and I tried to parent our oldest that way, she'd probably commit suicide. Other kids/people need a more direct approach, but I can't imagine any child has ever benefitted from being hit. I certainly didn't regardless of the fact I survived.

Another recommendation for "Your Spirited Child". I wish I'd read it when my oldest was a preschooler (which is the age it targets) rather than waiting till she was 9. Otherwise, I've got one of those non-typical kids for whom the normal parenting books are total garbage so I don't have any other recommendations.

lhamo

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2020, 01:34:33 PM »
I loved "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk." My parenting has been very much along the lines of their Authoritative approach, and my kids (now 19 and 15) seem to have turned out pretty good - knock wood!

LiveLean

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2020, 01:37:19 PM »
Don't worry about books. The only books you'll be reading -- and should be reading - in the coming years are an hour's worth of books to your kid every night. If you speak more than one language, even better.

You'll figure out discipline on youir own, taking a mix of both parents' upbringings. Don't let screens serve as babysitters or ways to avoid tantrums. Enjoy the pre-screen years. Make them last as long as possible. Strap on and get ready! Enjoy!

Steeze

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2020, 02:17:33 PM »
Thank you all for the replies.

It was helpful reading about authoritarian vs. authoritative vs. permissive styles. Nice to have solid language to describe what you see and experience.

I think my wife and I grew up in authoritarian style homes, her especially. Around 10 years old my home became distinctly permissive, which was fun, irresponsible, and by 15, wildly dangerous. From 15-25 was a bit of a lost decade, and I am lucky to be here today. I do credit my strict authoritarian childhood to being able to turn my life around - I had a good foundation, just got lost.

Authoritative seems to be a better definition of our intentions. I will try to focus on systems which place an emphasis on that style.

SimpleCycle

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2020, 01:19:41 PM »
I think it's good you are thinking about parenting and discipline styles, especially coming from the authoritarian and permissive backgrounds.  I know I wanted something a bit different than my upbringing for my kids, and for me reading gave me the language to put some of what I wanted into practice.

Before 2, there is very little "discipline" in the traditional sense - it is all redirection and an occasional strong "NO!".  I really enjoyed Positive Discipline by Jane Nelsen (the classic) for an overview of the philosophy and Positive Discipline The First Three Years for how it applies to little littles.  I'm done with the latter one and can pop it in the mail if you are interested.  It gave us a solid base, and was basically all the discipline we needed for our son.

Our daughter, on the other hand, dealt us quite the hand where discipline is concerned.  She is very strong willed and defiant, and we have struggled with being the type of parents she needs.  For her, I would say "How to talk to Little Kids will listen" was more effective than Positive Discipline (although it's in line with the PD philosophy, just more specific).  In the end though, we took a behavior intervention class that is basically Positive Discipline meets behaviorism.  If you turn out to have a challenging kid, I have lots of advice, but won't detail it here as it likely won't apply. :)

StashingAway

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2020, 02:01:15 PM »
"Kids are worth it" by Barbara Coloroso may be on the list as well. Heard her talk on a podcast and got the book and it is a very good read. Not too far off from what Laura33 was saying in that negative reinforcement doesn't set kids well up for life. Gives lots of scenarios throughout and ways to address them. She was a special needs teacher for many years so has been through the school of hard-knocks. In the end, it's more of a book on how to interact with other humans compassionately in disguise as a book about how to manage kids. Examples include how to introduce choice into their life and managing consequences for their actions.

I've got friends with only good things to say about "1-2-3-magic", so I may have to give that one a shot as well.

SimpleCycle

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2020, 02:05:01 PM »
"Kids are worth it" by Barbara Coloroso may be on the list as well. Heard her talk on a podcast and got the book and it is a very good read. Not too far off from what Laura33 was saying in that negative reinforcement doesn't set kids well up for life. Gives lots of scenarios throughout and ways to address them. She was a special needs teacher for many years so has been through the school of hard-knocks. In the end, it's more of a book on how to interact with other humans compassionately in disguise as a book about how to manage kids. Examples include how to introduce choice into their life and managing consequences for their actions.

I've got friends with only good things to say about "1-2-3-magic", so I may have to give that one a shot as well.

I like this one as well!

englishteacheralex

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2020, 02:33:51 PM »
PTF, just reserved all the titles mentioned so far at the library. Thanks everybody. I have a six year old and a three year old and sometimes I feel like a total disaster as a parent. I'm familiar with a lot of basic parenting strategies but I forget it a lot in the heat of the moment and can always use a reminder.

Steeze

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2020, 06:46:50 PM »
I think it's good you are thinking about parenting and discipline styles, especially coming from the authoritarian and permissive backgrounds.  I know I wanted something a bit different than my upbringing for my kids, and for me reading gave me the language to put some of what I wanted into practice.

Before 2, there is very little "discipline" in the traditional sense - it is all redirection and an occasional strong "NO!".  I really enjoyed Positive Discipline by Jane Nelsen (the classic) for an overview of the philosophy and Positive Discipline The First Three Years for how it applies to little littles.  I'm done with the latter one and can pop it in the mail if you are interested.  It gave us a solid base, and was basically all the discipline we needed for our son.

Our daughter, on the other hand, dealt us quite the hand where discipline is concerned.  She is very strong willed and defiant, and we have struggled with being the type of parents she needs.  For her, I would say "How to talk to Little Kids will listen" was more effective than Positive Discipline (although it's in line with the PD philosophy, just more specific).  In the end though, we took a behavior intervention class that is basically Positive Discipline meets behaviorism.  If you turn out to have a challenging kid, I have lots of advice, but won't detail it here as it likely won't apply. :)

Thank you! - I just checked it out and I can order it at the library. It is already checked out, but I will put it on back order while I read 1-2-3 Magic. Interestingly they do not have the original - only the "the first 3 years" - Can I get the gist from the latter without first reading the original?

ToTheMoon

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2020, 08:15:28 PM »
From the library: Alyson Schafer - Breaking the Good Mom Myth (basics) & Honey I Wrecked the Kids (older kids or more spirited kids).

For your bookshelf at home: Alyson Schafer - Ain't Misbehavin': Tactics for Tantrums, Meltdowns, Bedtime Blues and other perfectly normal kid behaviours*.

*This one was awesome for when I was just was not sure what to do anymore. I would keep it in my bedroom, give myself a time-out while I looked up the behaviour I was dealing with. It is very straightforward - look up the behaviour that is occurring, it says "you are probably saying this, but try saying that instead." A total saviour at the moment, and it worked most of the time!

ETA - Her style is "democratic" parenting - lots of natural consequences (when appropriate) and giving your kids choice (again, where appropriate.) I strive for this, but in the heat of the moment I end up reverting to authoritative parenting (how I grew up) if I am not careful!

I should also mention that all my best parenting intentions went out the window when I was not caring well enough for myself. Looking back, most of my worst parenting times/moments occurred when I was over-tired, over-caffeinated, over-stimulated etc. If you can take good care of yourself as the parents, there will likely be fewer blow-ups etc as you will have the mental wherewithal to get out ahead of most issues BEFORE they become yelling times.

Care for yourselves as well as you intend to care for your children and you probably do not even need any books to read. You will actually be capable of not sweating the small stuff!
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 07:57:00 AM by ToTheMoon »

SimpleCycle

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2020, 11:51:49 AM »
I think it's good you are thinking about parenting and discipline styles, especially coming from the authoritarian and permissive backgrounds.  I know I wanted something a bit different than my upbringing for my kids, and for me reading gave me the language to put some of what I wanted into practice.

Before 2, there is very little "discipline" in the traditional sense - it is all redirection and an occasional strong "NO!".  I really enjoyed Positive Discipline by Jane Nelsen (the classic) for an overview of the philosophy and Positive Discipline The First Three Years for how it applies to little littles.  I'm done with the latter one and can pop it in the mail if you are interested.  It gave us a solid base, and was basically all the discipline we needed for our son.

Our daughter, on the other hand, dealt us quite the hand where discipline is concerned.  She is very strong willed and defiant, and we have struggled with being the type of parents she needs.  For her, I would say "How to talk to Little Kids will listen" was more effective than Positive Discipline (although it's in line with the PD philosophy, just more specific).  In the end though, we took a behavior intervention class that is basically Positive Discipline meets behaviorism.  If you turn out to have a challenging kid, I have lots of advice, but won't detail it here as it likely won't apply. :)

Thank you! - I just checked it out and I can order it at the library. It is already checked out, but I will put it on back order while I read 1-2-3 Magic. Interestingly they do not have the original - only the "the first 3 years" - Can I get the gist from the latter without first reading the original?

Yep, definitely, it stands alone.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2020, 03:58:30 AM »
+1 that what worked for you may not work for your kid(s). Double +1 if you realise that actually your parents' style didn't work for you and you are trying not to project your ongoing neuroses about your own childhood onto your kids.

+1 to read widely and get lots of different perspectives. Sometimes my toddler needs a cuddle. Sometimes he needs a consequence. I like having a lot of tools in my toolbox.

+1 that I don't like the word "discipline". I know it has different connotations for different people. I don't need to smack my toddler, I need to let him know the rules he's able to work within.

+1 to How to Talk So Little Kids Will Listen... I find myself going back to it to look up specific behaviours from time to time.

Some of my best parenting reads have actually been autobiographies/biographies. Reading about so many childhoods has helped me focus on their being no One True Way and that you can mess up from time to time and your kids won't be irredeemably damaged.

Learn to apologise and not bear grudges.

Buy Precious Little Sleep. Like, NOW. It's my #1 new parent recommendation. It covers all options and styles of getting your child to go the fuck to sleep. You will not be your best self if you are not sleeping, and it's likely to be the first "discipline"-style challenge you encounter.

My parenting style is a combo of How to Talk... and this blog: https://catholicallyear.com/blog/category/parenting/ She's a hardass with ten kids. I am not a natural hardass but I like her straightforward style and sometimes I just need to tell my son what's what and he has to fall in line. Yes, it IS naptime. No, you WON'T push me. You can ignore all the Catholic stuff. Maybe read this to start with: https://catholicallyear.com/blog/always-mean-what-you-say-how-of/

I don't think you *need* to read books to be a good parent, but they can certainly help. Especially if you're not confident in your own authority. (I'm not.) But really, think about your parenting goals and how you want your kids to remember their childhood. I want my kids to remember that I always had time for what was important to them, did fun stuff with them, wasn't an Angry Mum (struggling with this one lately...), but also ran an organised home so that they always knew where they stood and taught them how to stand on their own two feet. I think the kind of pareting book it's most helpful to read is the one that's the opposite of how you incline, for balance and new techniques. I tend to be a cuddly wuddly sap, hence my love of Kendra's hardass blog.

Freedomin5

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2020, 07:30:00 AM »
Parenting with Love and Logic. We use this one to run parenting seminars. The authors also have one geared for preschoolers - Love and Logic Magic for Early Childhood: Practical Parenting from Birth to Six Years

The psychiatrist and educator who wrote the book have a website on their positive parenting philosophy: https://www.loveandlogic.com/


Books by Daniel Siegel are all research-based. He’s a neuroscientist (from UCLA I think), and he approaches parenting from a neuroscientific/neurodevelopmental perspective. He’s written several books. I particularly like Parenting from the Inside Out and The Whole Brain Child, but his other books are good too in terms of general parenting. (I prefer to use Love and Logic principles and techniques for younger children, but I like Siegel in terms of how to be a better parent/person who parents children.)

Oh, and if you want to research impact of different parenting styles on children’s development, look up “authoritarian parenting, permissive parenting, and authoritative parenting”. Typically we want to strive for authoritative parenting — but the definition of “authoritative parenting” in the developmental psych world is not how most people define “authoritative”, so make sure you read up on what it actually means and not what you think it means.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 07:40:29 AM by Freedomin5 »

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2020, 01:50:17 PM »
I found Burton L. White's book great for giving me a road map for what I came to call "considered parenting".  Just knowing what the baby was developmentally capable of was really helpful.
I tried to not be reactive.
I don't think we really disciplined very much at all.
We did have family expectations:  treating everyone with respect. So when someone bit me, I yelled ouch and made sure to cry about it hurting. 
Sit at the table and eat whatever food you put on your plate. (we didn't feed our kids, they did that)  Ellen Satter's book - Eat and Feed with Joy resonated with me.

When they got to be three my one big rule of the next age was "no exclusionary play" (now this rule seems hilarious. I have clear memories of my four year old calling out the neighbour on excluding her from the game and the neighbour not having that word in his vocabulary and my 7 year old supplying the definition.)

The rules were about keeping everyone safe and as few as possible. It was a lot easier just to remove as much danger and temptation as possible so that everyone could just be super busy with constructive play. I tried to keep things positive.  The stove was a "too hot" and a "just look" rather than a "no touch".  And if something was a just look, it was a just look for the whole family. Both of us would try to be on the same page on everything and we talked strategy all the time.

And our methods largely worked because my kids had a great deal of impulse control and were very shy and afraid of novelty. My brother's kids need a different style because they are act first think later kids and are always two steps ahead of their parents. And they are twins.

mrs sideways

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2020, 02:27:00 PM »
Third-ing the "every kid is different" caveat to parenting books. If something isn't working, don't automatically blame yourself or think you're doing the book wrong. I'd say read a bunch of them (the library was amazing for this) and cobble your own strategy together based on what actually works.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2020, 06:17:52 AM »
+1 to Ellyn Satter on eating. I actually found everything I needed to on her website: https://www.ellynsatterinstitute.org/

Luz

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2020, 11:30:01 PM »
I was a nanny for 20 years before having kids and noticed a big shift towards the end of my time in that role. I observed that as a general trend, kids are now given much more leeway in terms of behavior, but enjoy less freedom in other areas of life than was previously common.  It sparked my interest, so I read a number of books on the culture of parenting and recent changes. My favorites were All Joy and No Fun, Bringing Up Bebe, and Unequal Childhoods. How to Raise an Adult, The Blessings of a Skinned Knee, and Duct Tape Parenting were also interesting reads.

For the day-to-day, I like:
Bringing Up Bebé (especially "the pause" and "the cadre")
French Kids Eat Everything (parents decide when and what kids eat, kids decide if they'll eat and how much)
Precious Little Sleep (so funny and a great synthesis of the science of infant/toddler sleep)
Have a New Kid by Friday (attitude, behavior, character; maybe similar in style to Love and Logic)
Positive Discipline (kind but firm, talk less/act more, focus on your response rather than on controlling your kid's behavior)
The blog, A Mother Far From Home (great articles on validating emotions while remaining firm on behavior)

I'm also a huge fan of the On Becoming Babywise series. I take it with a grain of salt, since there are plenty of old school parts to it and it has a religious bent (which I don't personally subscribe to). But man, there are absolute gems in there, including: Other people count. Prepare the child for the road, not the road for the child. Parent first, be friends later. Differentiate between immaturity and defiance and correct accordingly. Give them the level of freedom they can handle. Teach them responsibility for their behavior by not shielding them from the consequences of their actions. Once responsibility for something is transferred from parent to child (after training has occurred), don't take it back. Let the daily rhythm do the lion's share of the discipline. All correction must promote learning. Teach obedience in order to teach anything else. Put as much effort into promoting the virtue as squashing the vice, etc. 

I read a pamphlet years ago that described a really simple approach. It was basically: strive to be calm, consistent, and in charge with your kids. Decide on a code of behavior that includes the things most important to you (for me that's respect for oneself and others). Hold them accountable to the code by bringing them back on the path every time they start veering off. Do this by correcting verbally once to communicate the expectation "Love, you can throw the ball at the wall, but I don't want you to throw it at baby brother". If they persist in the behavior, apply a consequence. Continue to apply the consequence until they are back on the path, however long it takes.

Oh, and when I see a graceful parent with a bunch of great kids, I introduce myself and ask for all their secrets.

Cassie

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2020, 01:37:12 PM »
I also think Love and Logic is a awesome method because it balances empathy with natural consequences. If your baby doesn’t have any illnesses/disabilities, etc and you are consistent in terms of sleep, schedules, etc as well as not developing bad habits such as rocking a baby to sleep every time then you will develop a consistency that your child will expect. The people that I have known with many problems just wing it and are not consistent.   I think you are wise to think about this in advance.

J Boogie

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2020, 03:45:37 PM »
Dad of two boys, 4 and 1.

I have consumed plenty of Janet Lansbury content but I seem to find my biggest problem is that I run out of consequences. My wife will make empty threats (threatens to call off the upcoming get together, often even pretending to have a phone conversation with the parents explaining the cancellation - 4 yr old is no longer fooled by this though) and I will occasionally spank if the first admonition is not heeded.

I'm not proud of spanking but unfortunately it is far more effective than any other disciplinary technique I use. For example, I will usually cancel the 2nd bedtime story if he doesn't begin putting his toys away, or he will have to go to bed early if he leaves the table before finishing his meal. The problem is that the consequence will be delivered as promised but the tantrum continues on and transforms into whiny pleading for leniency.

I still do these things as I prefer not to resort to a spanking, but a crisp spanking delivered promptly nearly always saves both of us what would otherwise be up to a half hour of whiny pleading and continued disobedience once all the carrots have been forfeited, leaving nothing but stick. When the stick is delivered right away the carrots remain on the table and his demeanor is far more positive.

I also find myself counting down from 5 quite a bit to, for example, get him to join me in the bathroom to brush our teeth, as without a countdown he will just keep playing while I just keep asking - getting more and more annoyed and having to threaten the forfeiture of a bedtime story. But now it seems I HAVE to countdown to be obeyed promptly, which is annoying. And he skates in usually 1 or 2 seconds after I hit 0, which I accept because I'm not a drill instructor, but I do want him to have a clear understanding of my expectations.

Just venting a little bit I guess, and hoping to gain some clarity in the form of advice as soon my discipline strategy will be affecting my other boy as well so I'd like to do the best job I can having learned some lessons already.

Cassie

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2020, 04:28:19 PM »
J, it looks like you have gotten into a daily struggle with your son that must be frustrating.  My kids didn’t get to watch a lot of TV so I tied it to the nightly routine. We ate dinner, did homework, baths, teeth and then if it wasn’t bedtime they could watch tv.  They were usually cooperative because they wanted TV. They weren’t allowed to turn it on and because it was limited it worked well. I realize now the electronic choices are endless but it would still work depending on what they liked the most. Bedtime was a set time with no deviations except for special occasions. The more things are set the less there is to argue about.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2020, 05:48:32 AM »
@J Boogie: I have a pretty easygoing #1, so I'm hardly an expert, but I have to ask you three questions. It seems to me like all parenting advice comes down to these and the rest is just details.

1. Are you REALLY communicating your expectations?

"How to Talk so Little Kids Will Listen" is great on this. How does your kid know what's happening now and when it will end? (Assuming they can't tell the time and barely have a sense of days of the week and also can't read.) How do they know what's happening next and when that will end? How about after that?

We've just done a new schedule for our two and I am in the process of making a picture version for our toddler, Awdry*. (*forum code name. 2.5yo) We try to do things all together as much as possible because it's simpler. We get up and get dressed all together. We have breakfast all together. At snack time, I have my snack too. At nap time, both children (now) go for a nap. Repeat this principle all day long. We have the same routine every day. (We even have the same snack every day, so we actually call it "banana time".) This means it's obvious what's happening now because we're all doing it, and he knows what  happens next because it's the same every day. I like this post about devising a schedule, although we are working to clock time more right now as we bed down our new schedule: https://amotherfarfromhome.com/getting-your-kids-to-cooperate-the-south-african-way/

We now have his wooden clock out on our dining table so he can SEE how much time we have left for that meal. (Mucking around at mealtimes was a big problem for us recently.) Kids find it hard to hold long sequences in their head and have no awareness of time or the external pressures that explain WHY we want them to just get on and do it.

I wouldn't be able to get a sensible answer out of Awdry, but maybe at a quiet moment you could ask yours what he thinks the rules in your house are and why you have them. You might be surprised.

I also try to tell Awdry what TO do, not just what NOT to do. E.g. Not "Stop mucking around" but rather "Time to eat some food". Not "Don't wave your food around" but "Food lives on your plate or in your mouth". I think it's a pleasanter way of talking to him and also more effective because it's simpler for him to compute and he doesn't have to guess what I'm secretly thinking.

Uncertainty is the greatest cause of whining. Awdry never whines for snacks the way I understand some kids do. Why? Because snacks happen when I say they happen. We eat snacks together, sitting at the table. BUT also because he KNOWS when snacks will happen. They happen at the same time every day. He knows he can't have one now because it's not snack time but he knows he will have one soon so he doesn't need to worry about it. Occasionally there is a "bonus snack" if there is a special circumstance, e.g. we have a snack while we're out somewhere unusual because I know we'll get home later than usual for lunch and I'm not actually a mean mum.

But he does whine for me to come and play with him because sometimes I say yes and sometimes I say no and sometimes he does actually whine me into changing my mind.

2. Are you REALLY communicating what the consequences WILL be?

I mean... no, you're not. Your wife is making empty threats and you're telling him he has to come with you in five seconds plus a random number that you determine differently every time.

Imagine you're at work and your boss sees you writing meeting notes in blue biro and goes nuts and screams in front of everyone, "In this company we write in black ink! Black, dammit! If I ever see you write in blue ink again you'll be fired on the spot, do you hear me?" Wow. Seems kinda petty and stupid and you have no idea why but you don't want to get fired, so you make sure you write in black ink. Only one day, you forget and get a blue pen out of the bottom of your bag and start jotting some notes. Your boss comes over at the end of the meeting as asks to see your notes so she can check something. Then she does one of the following:

A) Checks the thing and leaves without mentioning that they're not written in black.
B) Says, "Huh, blue ink again? Better remember next time" and leaves.
C) Says, "Right, you're fired." Marches you to HR. Fills out the paperwork. Then... rips it up and says, "OK, I'm not really firing you. You still have your job. But don't forget about the black ink!"

How likely are you to pay any attention next time she threatens to fire you if you use green post-it notes? Or issues a company-wide memo about black ink? And wouldn't it be a problem if you applied to same attitude to something really important, like fire safety at a nuclear power plant? But she threatens to fire you over everything and you still have your job so whatever, you'll just toss that lit match in there, who even cares.

I hope you can see where I'm going with this. You should also re-read The Boy Who Cried Wolf. When you threaten something and don't follow through, you are the boy. It's only a matter of time before your bluff is called.

I spend a lot of time wrangling with appropriate consequences because I am a big softy. I'm just not going to smack my kid or make him go to bed without his dinner. Pick something your kid cares about that you don't care about. I don't care how many cars are in his car box. He does. So that's my threat. I take a car away (and try to pick his favourite). But I love reading stories to him, so I don't want to take that away so I'm apt to give him too many chances. Pick something you WILL do. In fact, spend some time ASSUMING that you'll end up having to do it every time. Do you heave a great sigh at the idea of enacting the consequence you've threatened, or do you shrug and say, "C'est la vie"?

You should read this post: https://catholicallyear.com/blog/always-mean-what-you-say-how-of/

I also recommend focusing on one behaviour to start with. It might be "Come when called". (Although, on that note, have you tried walking up to him, silently removing whatever he's doing, and taking his hand and leading him where he's supposed to go? If you say, "Time to brush your teeth" rather than "Come over here" then it's not a power struggle about whether he's coming to you or you going to him, it's just that when you say it's time to do something, it IS time to do something.) Last month I was focusing on getting Awdry to say "Please may I" instead of "I want" or "Shall you".

You don't HAVE to get your wife's buy-in on this. Kids are smart. They know that if Daddy says something they'd better hop to it but they can get away with thing with Mummy. I think that's an OK first step, and you can coach your wife once you've got it down.

3. Are you getting overly emotionally involved with the above two? (Plus a bit of a ramble)

You say you keep asking and getting more annoyed. What if you just... didn't? Ask once. Give consequence once. Enact consequence. (Mentally) walk away.

Sometimes I get all worked up about stuff I feel I ought to care about but actually don't. It's hard, then, for me to parent. I don't have the energy to mean what I say and take action if necessary. But there's some stuff that will happen come hell or high water and Awdry seems to be able to tell. Sleep is my #1 priority. Mine and theirs. So NOTHING will stop naptime or bedtime. NOTHING. I am willing to do WHATEVER IT TAKES. But meals? Ugh, whatever. I put the food on the table, he either eats it or doesn't. Often when we get stuck about something I find it's actually because I don't really care about it. I'm externally motivated by the feeling that I ought to tackle it rather than that I really care.

How much do you care about your son coming when called? Really? Any WHY do you care? I care about sleep because we are all bad people when tired. I think you need to find your own internal motivation here and figure out something you care a lot about that you want to work on first. But then also figure out some consequences you don't care about. Ideally ones that involve LESS action from you. What is your son's favourite thing in the world? "If you do not stand up and come with me right now, X is going away until tomorrow." Occasionally I have removed Awdry's beloved Rabbit. I am truly a monster.

At age four, your son has choices. Sometimes he'll make bad choices. That doesn't mean you're a bad parent and it doesn't have to ruin your day. I had a quick look at Janet Lansbury's website.

Quote
If you asked (and they could answer), here are some examples they might offer of baby care that reflect that respect:

Tell me what’s going on
Give me attention
Hear me, don’t just fix me
Let me create and initiate my own activities
Trust me with the truth

You're not telling your son what's going on. Because your words don't reflect reality. You're not trusting him with the truth. You are lying right, left and centre. This was one of the first articles on the site: https://www.janetlansbury.com/2019/11/our-children-crave-boundaries-permissiveness-is-unkind/

This might seem kinda harsh, but I personally think counting down is bullshit. Giving a five minute or one minute warning to give a heads up, sure. It's kind to let them know what's next and when it is. I wouldn't like to be yanked out from something I was really into with no notice. But either they need to do X or stop doing Y or they don't. Especially counting down to stop throwing or whining or whatever. Why is it OK for those five seconds but not afterwards? It's either OK or not OK.

You want to respect your kids. I get that. Me too. So, I often ask myself how I would respond if I were asking my husband to do something. I'd let him know what my plans were, remind him when it was nearly time to go, respect that he might have had other plans and try to work around them, but if it's something time sensitive then sorry we do have to go at X o'clock. I'd expect him to be ready to go when we'd agreed and while I might let him finish a paragraph of his book, I would be really cross if he kept dragging it out "just one more!" until the end of the chapter and made us all late.

Specific advice

There are clearly loads of different parenting styles here. I'm sure if you wanted to post a play-by-play of a particular scenario, you'd get a lot of advice.

If I were you, I would pick one flashpoint to work on. Maybe start of bedtime routine. I would be very clear in my head what constituted compliance and what didn't, and I would tell my son earlier in the day that "from now on" (magic words in our house) "we are going to do bedtime differently. I need you to get into bed promptly because you need your sleep and I have a lot to do in the evening so you need to be in bed by X. That means we have to start brushing your teeth at Y" (my son believes I am furiously busy all evening. I am not about to disabuse him of this notion. I am very busy eating dinner and reading my book. Very busy indeed) "I am going to give you a five minute warning and a one minute warning. Then, when I tell you to stop playing and come to the bathroom, I need you to stand up and come immediately." (Personally I would be doing the telling to come standing right next to him, not yelling from another room because it's harder to ignore and easier to encact consequence) "If you do not, [insert consequence here]." (I would pick a consequence that happens right away, not in some nebulous 'in fifteen minutes time' story-reading future. If it were me, I would confiscate whatever he was playing with for the next day. "If you can't be trusted to put X away when I tell you to, you can't be trusted to play with it.") "Do you understand?"

Then, at bedtime, I would do what I said. If he didn't come right away, I would pick up the toy, put it away somewhere he can't get it, take him by the hand and lead him into the bathroom. If I had to and physically could, I would pick him up if necessary. I would say NOTHING. (This is the hardest part. You have to be zen-like and impassive on the outside.) But really, what is there to say? You're not going to get the toy out again, you don't have a time machine to help him go back and choose again. The only thing I might say is, once, "I'm not going to change my mind." Be a mountain. You're not a fire for him to fight. You're just there.

Then, the next night, you wipe the slate clean and start again.

If you do read How To Talk So Little Kids Will Listen, it has a lot of tips on defusing tension and getting buy-in from your kids by asking them to make suggestions. I do recommend it. But ultimately, you have to ALWAYS MEAN WHAT YOU SAY.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 08:08:49 AM by shelivesthedream »

Laura33

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2020, 08:21:16 AM »
[snip]

Ouch, I feel your pain.  The good news is that you have a clever, intelligent 4-year-old who is doing exactly what a 4-year old should: testing all the boundaries and asserting his independence.  The bad news is that OH MY GOD are those kids exhausting.*  You spend all this time and energy figuring out how to "fix" this one behavior, and as soon as you get that under control, they're on to the next one.  I remember once spending like a month figuring out how to manage one particular thing my DD did, and I finally came up with an idea, and it worked, and I was SO happy I was practically throwing out my shoulder patting myself on the back.  And then I thought, "wait a minute -- if I have to work this hard to stay a half-step ahead of her when she's 4, what the hell am I going to do when she's 14?" 

But to be perfectly clear:  you are not running out of consequences.  You are simply not applying them consistently, and so your DS is doing his job by testing the limits to see if you really mean it this time.  Count to 5, he's not there, you let him slide if he's one second late?  That guarantees that next time, he'll be two seconds late, and he'll keep pushing it until he finds the point where you mean it. 

Oh, and btw, when you impose the consequence and he has a tantrum and whines, that's actually a win.  "Success" doesn't mean that the kid complies and is happy about it.  Sure, that's the end goal.  But first the kid has to figure out what your boundaries actually are, and when he finds one, he's going to get upset, because he's ratcheting up the pressure to get you to give on that boundary too.  Things always get worse before they get better.  Once he figures out that 5 actually means 5, he'll get there at 4.9 and the drama will go away. 

The thing is, it's not about being a drill sergeant.  Kids need to know where the boundaries are, because that makes them feel secure.  It's about how you do it.  You're not barking out orders and expecting them to fall into line; you're telling them, calmy and lovingly, what they need to do, and you're dispassionately imposing the consequence if they don't do it. 

My advice:  pick the one thing that drives you most up the wall -- say the teeth thing.  Focus on that.  In a calm time, explain to the kid that he is big enough now to come brush his teeth like a big boy, and so you expect him to do that, and if he doesn't, then you'll have time for only one story.  (Your attitude is key here -- you say that sadly, not as a threat, because you really want to share that second story with him, and you'll be sad to miss it!).  When he doesn't come when you ask,** do your count to five thing (or read 1-2-3 Magic and do that).  If he's not there by 5 on the dot, you walk over to him, pick him up, carry him to the bathroom, put the toothpaste on his brush -- don't need to say anything, and whatever you do, don't exude anger and frustration.  If he brushes his teeth, then continue on, do the single story, tuck him in, and walk out.  More likely, he'll melt down when you pick him up and carry him to the bathroom.  Again, don't talk, don't yank him, don't get angry.  Just hand him the toothbrush, and when he doesn't take it, you can brush his teeth for him.  If he's really thrashing and flailing though, just skip the teeth brushing that night, pick him up and take him to bed -- again, calmly, not angrily.  You go through the bedtime motions as if he's not acting up at all -- if you have to, read the story to yourself while he's flailing on the floor.  Then you just leave him to his tantrum.  I guarantee that by night 2 or 3, he'll be coming to sit next to you during the story, even if he's still melting down over brushing teeth, and you can give him a nice snuggle while reading to help him calm down.  And when he finally does do it like he's supposed to, then you praise him for being such a big boy.  It's even more important to notice your kid doing something right and giving him positive reinforcement, even if it's only baby steps.  You don't want the only attention he gets to be for acting up. 

That was the 1-2-3 Magic light bulb for me:  your kid wants you to be completely unmoved by his tantrums -- not cold, not angry, but the same calm, loving dad you are when he's not tantruming.  Because as a kid, it's terrifying to be able to control your parents like that.


*True story: I once got called to the preschool director's office because my DD had "completely disrespected" a teacher.  My DD had been playing with a couple boys, and they start slapping each other, and the teacher said "now friends, let's keep our hands to ourselves."  And, per the teacher, "[DD] looked me straight in the eye and kicked [boy] in the shin."  Ummmmmm.  Yeah.  I had to gather myself for a minute.  Then I looked the teacher in the eye and said "you didn't say 'feet.'"  Yep.  That was my kid.

**Note that he may well come the first night, if Daddy's being sad is fresh in his mind and he wants to please you.  Then you can give him an extra hug and praise for being such a big boy.  But absolutely expect it to all fall apart the next night. 

shelivesthedream

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2020, 08:57:14 AM »
@Laura33 : I did laugh at how similar our specific tooth time advice is - presumably typed at the same time! Hope J Boogie tries it out. I +1, although I forgot to mention it, that if he does comply then you are really cheery and positive and absolutely do not hold a grudge about every single instance beforehand when he has disobeyed you ever. Ahem. Live totally in the moment and don't re-punish for past offences.

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2020, 12:13:45 PM »
My trick is this:

"After you brush your teeth....Which two stories are you picking tonight".....lots of words about book choices...""after you brush your teeth, are we reading this one?"three or four books in hand)....multiple choice questions of no particular consequence after a statement of fact. Fill the void with conversation about something else.  Don't provide the opportunity to disagree.
Start with lots of warnings and laying the foundation of teeth brushing is just a fact. Perhaps right after supper the conversation starts with "before you have to get ready for bed, what activity would you like to do?" "it isn't time for teeth yet, do you want to play snakes and ladders with me?"  "I am going to clean up dinner before tooth brush time". 
I bet you can state the fact that tooth brushing is going to occur five time in the forty minutes before the event.  Lots of conversation /engagement during the teeth brushing.  We often sang the Raffi song "brush your teeth" and did some goofy dance.  The entire family brushed our teeth together.  (brushing my teeth stops me from snacking)
It is sometimes exhausting to get out ahead of these kids.  But it is a good sign that they are trying to define themselves as autonomous beings with free will.  But really clever and high energy independent kids are exhausting.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2020, 01:26:35 PM »
We often sang the Raffi song "brush your teeth" and did some goofy dance.  The entire family brushed our teeth together.  (brushing my teeth stops me from snacking)

Cool song! Tooth brushing is our minor drama of the moment. He'll happily have some cursory stroking of his teeth but particularly won't let me scrub the front two - won't pull his lips up so I end up peeling them up with my fingers while he wiggles and cries in order that he doesn't grow orange slime on them. I'm trying various things to make it more fun and less torture...so now I have a song to learn!

J Boogie

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2020, 01:54:59 PM »
Thanks everyone for chiming in, especially SLD.

Plenty of wisdom for me to comb through here.

Luz

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2020, 09:58:37 PM »
@J Boogie,

I was ok with the whining and tantrums when my daughter was pre-verbal. I knew they were just her displeasure with a boundary I set. And it was the boundary setting, not the response to it, that was important. Up until she was 2, I would simply say "that's really hard for you, isn't it?" or "you really wanted/didn't want to do that, didn't you?" Then I'd let her holler for a bit all while seeing to it that she followed my direction.

But the whining and crying now that she's verbal just feels different. Her rational brain is still not very good at keeping her emotional brain in check. But with a little guidance, she's able to express her wants and needs without meltdowns. So I'm less tolerant of just letting her holler now (which is stressful for those around her). I'd rather work with her on improving her communication and emotional skills.

I don't change my boundaries, but I've started using a few phrases someone suggested: "I see that you're upset. Would you like to calm down with me on the couch or somewhere else?" Or with whining, I'll say "That's whining. I'd like to help you. Please tell me what you want". Usually, she wanted something that my boundary blocked. I restate the boundary, but make it more palatable by stating when she's able to fulfill those desires: "oh, you wanted to leave the table and play? You are welcome to leave the table when everyone is finished eating".

I also think that straightforward discipline cuts down on a lot of whining and crying. Instead of taking away the birthday party, (...bedtime story, dinner, etc) I prefer to just say it once ("it's time to brush your teeth" "it's not time to get down from the table" "it's time to pick up your toys") and follow through with a consequence if my direction is ignored. I do a time-out, not as punishment, but in order that nothing else happens until she's ready to follow my direction. Once she's ready to follow through with what I've asked (and I'm way more stubborn than her, so continued disobedience gets her nowhere and she knows it), she's welcome to go to the birthday party or to read bedtime stories, even if we're late to the party or I have to fly through the stories to get to bed on time.



« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 10:05:59 PM by Luz »

Margie

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2020, 07:32:06 AM »
I love reading all the Mini-money-mustaches because my kids are now 18 & 15 so I remember those years with rose coloured glasses!!    Enjoy them the years fly by!!

Anyhow, I remember a few things that worked wonders for me...giving my kids options (all options acceptable but they could pick)  Outfits, what to play on first, etc...They often looked bizarre such as my daughter would wear a dress with black rain boots in the middle of summer.  Whatever.  If we were going somewhere dressy I would tell her she could wear any pair of shoes, the boots were off limits but otherwise she wore those everywhere.  I have so many pictures of her in them with a huge smile on her face.

I tried the naughty stair - my son would actually say to me "mommy if I do XXX is that 2 min on the naughty stair?"  I would say yes and then he would do said XXX and put himself into time out saying "don't worry mommy I am already on the naughty stair"  Obviously, I had to up my game.  It did make me nervous that I was raising a nutcase but he is now 18 and very responsible and follows the rules of life for the most part. 

I would also feed them good food for the majority of their meals, so much so, that they even today, don't really eat a lot of junk food.  They just don't crave it.  Pop was off limits for years and even now they prefer water and chocolate milk.  (they are athletes)  I made snacks of fruit and veg with dips or yogourt....kids love dipping!! 

I also used a timer to get them moving...I let them take turns setting it...and when it went off they knew to clean up, or do whatever activity was next.  I agree having a roughly outlined schedule takes away so many arguments.

I would also say "we don't do that in our family" or "no thank you to that" if they were doing something I didn't like. 

I also found whispering when I was angry or trying to get their attention made them stop and lean in to hear me.  I did this because I grew up with a screamer for a mom and even to this day (I am middle aged) I still feel anxious when someone starts yelling or raising their voice.

I also, always apologize to them when I have lost my ability to carry myself properly.  I think it has helped them to realize everyone makes mistakes, and you can always learn and try to do better.  I always own it.  Typically my horrendous parenting moments came when I was tired or hungry...

As teenagers, I try hard to always be open minded to their thoughts and I try hard not to tell them what to do.  Instead I say things like "if it were me, I would consider XXX but I trust your judgement - think it through"    I also tell them there aren't too many decisions in life that can't be fixed...really the only ones are if they are careless they could hurt someone or if they have a baby with someone they are not committed too.  Otherwise, you make an unsuitable decision, you can backtrack and fix it. 

I am grateful that they have good friends with good parents so everyone knows we all truly care about them.  My kids' friends know I will pick them up no questions asked at any time.  (I have done it twice now).   

Enjoy this time...it is fleeting and it will bring you so much love and joy (followed by some literally sh*tty experiences!!!).  Good luck!!!

shelivesthedream

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2020, 12:30:16 PM »
Definitely +1 to the whispering. I try not to overuse it, but at the moment I whisper to ask him if he needs the potty and he'll whisper and answer back. Somehow it doesn't annoy him like asking him in a normal tone does. Especially if you can just whisper a single word. How to Talk... is big on not over-talking and lecturing when a single word or two will communicate enough, especially on common topics. So, J Boogie, you might crouch down next to your playing son and whisper, "Come on, teeth time."

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2020, 02:35:11 PM »
Definitely +1 to the whispering. I try not to overuse it, but at the moment I whisper to ask him if he needs the potty and he'll whisper and answer back. Somehow it doesn't annoy him like asking him in a normal tone does. Especially if you can just whisper a single word. How to Talk... is big on not over-talking and lecturing when a single word or two will communicate enough, especially on common topics. So, J Boogie, you might crouch down next to your playing son and whisper, "Come on, teeth time."
  we just said:  "peggers now".  Kids like it when you behave like a goof ball until they are about 12 and then you must STOP already.

mrs sideways

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2020, 04:38:52 PM »
Enjoy them the years fly by!!

Other parents keep telling me that, but this has been the longest 10 damn years of my life.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 09:58:57 PM by mrs sideways »

jeninco

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2020, 09:02:39 PM »
Enjoy them the years fly by!!

Parents keep telling me that, but this has been the longest 10 damn years of my life.

"The minutes crawl, but the years fly"

My 16-year old was annoyed with me for ... something or another yesterday, so when we decided to be profligate and get take out BBQ for lunch I texted him, rather than having a conversation. It was the right thought -- when he came out to join us he was in an agreeable mood.

There's a lot of great advice here, along with some that would have monumentally backfired with our kids. I also really liked the "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen..." books, and also found the cartoons in them were really easy to read when I was upset and trying to find a solution.  I also really liked "The Scientist in the Crib" for an evidence-based discussion of what babies and small kids can understand. We did baby sign with our kids when they were pre-verbal, partly because it helped deal with their frustration of wanting stuff and being unable to communicate that to us: it also taught us to pay more attention to cues from them, which I think improved the parenting experience for all of us.

lhamo

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2020, 08:56:05 AM »
Gretchen Rubin has a phrase about parenting I really like: The days are long but the years are short.

mntnmn117

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2020, 05:09:35 PM »
Like other's have said your first challenge is sleeping discipline. I recommend the book- Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child - Marc Weissbluth.  There will absolutely be some rough times but the sooner you have them sleeping through the night your sanity will come back. And the concepts for sleep discipline translate to regular discipline - consistency basically.

I agree with book reading as the bedtime carrot. Our kids know that a bunch of whining and not putting pj's on and brushing teeth jeopardizes book time.

We're got 4 kids (10-3yo) and our most effective is the time-out. Not 30min in their bedroom but short, like age = minutes, in an empty corner of the most boring room in the house. Immediate time out because kids have no concept of the future reward for a while. When they are young you look them in the eyes or hold them and 30 seconds of complete inactivity is enough to force a 2 or 3 year to reconsider their actions. It stops the mayhem and forces thinking to take place. At the end have a discussion about what they did wrong and what to do differently.

Mrs. D.

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2020, 03:01:27 PM »
***Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids by Laura Markham*** game changer for me and my son. He is alive and my mental health is in tact because of this book.
The Kazdin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child by Alan Kazdin at Yale.

Best advice I ever heard and I try to remember it every day: you're not raising them to be well-behaved children; you want them to be well-behaved adults. The tantrum/disrespect/inability to meet expectations today is okay as long as they're learning and developing some tools and skills to be better tomorrow.
Also, Laura Markham says all the time "This is not an emergency."

My basic approach to any behavior problem/conflict is to begin with empathy. "I see you're really upset/angry/sad/frustrated about...." It makes my kids feel seen and understood as well as modeling the vocabulary for them to express their own emotions. I follow that up with validation "it's okay to be upset/angry/etc...everyone feels that way sometimes." And go from there if my kid needs more help managing their emotions. DD is usually fine after empathy and validation. DS usually needs more help regulating.

Oh, and so much labeled praise. "I like how you're sitting in your chair and using a fork to eat your food. Good job handing that toy to your sister when she asked to see it." Ad nauseum. It made me crazy at first but it actually made a huge difference.

This parenting approach was not natural for me. I learned it through reading books, parent child interaction therapy, and trial and error.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 03:11:47 PM by Mrs. D. »

Mrs. D.

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2020, 03:15:33 PM »

We're got 4 kids (10-3yo) and our most effective is the time-out. Not 30min in their bedroom but short, like age = minutes, in an empty corner of the most boring room in the house. Immediate time out because kids have no concept of the future reward for a while. When they are young you look them in the eyes or hold them and 30 seconds of complete inactivity is enough to force a 2 or 3 year to reconsider their actions. It stops the mayhem and forces thinking to take place. At the end have a discussion about what they did wrong and what to do differently.

Wow, just to illustrate the idea that what works for one family won't necessarily work for another. When my son was 2-3 he was (and still is occasionally) violent and aggressive when being disciplined. I could not hold him for 30 seconds or I would have gotten hit, bit, kicked or otherwise hurt. Complete withdrawal of attention and contact worked way better.  My daughter would respond better to the approach you mention. We all figure it out as we go. And we're all doing the best we can!

Mrs. D.

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2020, 03:19:47 PM »
Enjoy them the years fly by!!

Other parents keep telling me that, but this has been the longest 10 5 damn years of my life.

+1

shelivesthedream

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2020, 12:13:33 AM »
This parenting approach was not natural for me. I learned it through reading books, parent child interaction therapy, and trial and error.

This is a huge thing. I get very frustrated by people telling me to go with my parenting instincts or, hurl, momma gut. My parenting instincts are to panic and imagine my kids crying over whatever it is in therapy as adults.

You can learn effective parenting.

Laura33

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2020, 06:19:21 AM »
This parenting approach was not natural for me. I learned it through reading books, parent child interaction therapy, and trial and error.

This is a huge thing. I get very frustrated by people telling me to go with my parenting instincts or, hurl, momma gut. My parenting instincts are to panic and imagine my kids crying over whatever it is in therapy as adults.

You can learn effective parenting.

+1.  Best thing I ever read -- on some blog somewhere -- was "no matter what you do, you will be wrong.  So just do the best you can, and put a little money aside for therapy down the road."  For someone with perfectionist tendencies,* just acknowledging that there is no way to get everything right all the time -- that no matter what I do, some part of it is going to be wrong for my kids, because they are different humans than I am -- was incredibly freeing.  Love your kids, be their rock, and when the inevitable happens, put in the work to learn and grow from those mistakes so you do it better next time. 

And in retrospect, it's the humility that comes with acknowledging that you might not know everything that makes you a better, more approachable parent in the end. 

*I mean, come on, my job literally requires me to be right 100% of the time.

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2020, 06:24:27 AM »
This parenting approach was not natural for me. I learned it through reading books, parent child interaction therapy, and trial and error.

This is a huge thing. I get very frustrated by people telling me to go with my parenting instincts or, hurl, momma gut. My parenting instincts are to panic and imagine my kids crying over whatever it is in therapy as adults.

You can learn effective parenting.

+1.  Best thing I ever read -- on some blog somewhere -- was "no matter what you do, you will be wrong.  So just do the best you can, and put a little money aside for therapy down the road."  For someone with perfectionist tendencies,* just acknowledging that there is no way to get everything right all the time -- that no matter what I do, some part of it is going to be wrong for my kids, because they are different humans than I am -- was incredibly freeing.  Love your kids, be their rock, and when the inevitable happens, put in the work to learn and grow from those mistakes so you do it better next time. 

And in retrospect, it's the humility that comes with acknowledging that you might not know everything that makes you a better, more approachable parent in the end. 

*I mean, come on, my job literally requires me to be right 100% of the time.
+1 and modelling how to fail and try again is going to help your offspring build resilience.  And the latest research is leaning towards "just good enough" parenting may actually be the best for raising children.

StashingAway

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2020, 12:43:36 PM »
And the latest research is leaning towards "just good enough" parenting may actually be the best for raising children.

Something I can strive for!

But really, can you clarify what the research is on a bit?

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2020, 01:59:10 PM »
And the latest research is leaning towards "just good enough" parenting may actually be the best for raising children.

Something I can strive for!

But really, can you clarify what the research is on a bit?
My best friend is a pediatric psychiatrist and when I was bemoaning another bad mommy moment, Dr. just said pretty much that:"just good enough". Further learning from podcasts fleshed out the "just good enough" theory that my friend mentioned so I listened more closely.  Kids do OK if they have at least one loving adult in their life and if their basic needs are met (nutrition, sleep, security).  Children that face some adversity by not having every single need met immediately learn to problem solve and cope with some discomfort.  Some discomfort is not damaging when they are supported by a loving adult and it is only not sustained over the long term.

So when you accidentally send your kid off to school sick and they throw up and have to come home, you can apologize for not paying close enough attention to them and vow to believe them when they say the feel "off" the night before next time.  Or you can loose your cool and kick a lego tower across the room.  Or you can forget to send extra mitts or crazy hair day or valentine cards. 

Seeing parents fail, apologize, feel discomfort and problem solve solutions and knowing they are loved, seems to me to be a completely sensible method for raising a resilient child.

lutorm

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2020, 12:06:48 AM »
I just read "kids are worth it" and "123 magic" on recommendations from this thread and it was pretty funny how they're in large parts complete opposites. Like it's "would you want someone to give you a sticker chart for doing your job" vs "kids are not little adults, their brains don't work the same way so you can not treat them how you want to be treated". :)

I thought both if them had useful things to say though. You just have to pick your approach and try to be consistent, I guess.

Other books we've liked, already mentioned, are "how to talk to kids..." and "precious little sleep."

I've been trying to figure out how to deal with our soon-to-be-3 son's tantrums and it's amazing how well choices work. Like the other day when he absolutely was not going to take a shower in an unfamiliar hotel room and I whipped out "would you like to enter on the left side or the right side of the shower curtain?" and he stops screaming, says "that side!" and hops right in. Sometimes he remembers that he was upset after making the choice, but far from always. It's pretty hilarious.


Cassie

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2020, 09:33:56 AM »
The more kids you have the less you worry about being perfect because you know that they will be fine. Everyone makes mistakes. 

jeninco

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Re: Discipline Methods - Book Recommendations Wanted
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2020, 12:55:20 PM »
I just read "kids are worth it" and "123 magic" on recommendations from this thread and it was pretty funny how they're in large parts complete opposites. Like it's "would you want someone to give you a sticker chart for doing your job" vs "kids are not little adults, their brains don't work the same way so you can not treat them how you want to be treated". :)

I thought both if them had useful things to say though. You just have to pick your approach and try to be consistent, I guess.

Other books we've liked, already mentioned, are "how to talk to kids..." and "precious little sleep."

I've been trying to figure out how to deal with our soon-to-be-3 son's tantrums and it's amazing how well choices work. Like the other day when he absolutely was not going to take a shower in an unfamiliar hotel room and I whipped out "would you like to enter on the left side or the right side of the shower curtain?" and he stops screaming, says "that side!" and hops right in. Sometimes he remembers that he was upset after making the choice, but far from always. It's pretty hilarious.

Well, as has been pointed out several times in this thread, what works for some kids won't necessarily be effective (and might be horrible) for others.  So having a bunch of approaches in your toolbox, and being able to choose a reasonable approach that resonates with you and works with your child is the goal.

And to pile on with someone else (I forget...), remember that you'll sometimes come up with the perfect solution to some horrible thing your kid is doing, be proud that you handled it so well, and then ... they'll move on to doing something else (hopefully, if they're relatively neurotypical). It's a practice, not a finish line is the idea here...

Good job with the shower thing!