Author Topic: Dealing with Tantrums?  (Read 6403 times)

hunniebun

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Dealing with Tantrums?
« on: June 08, 2016, 09:20:48 AM »
So my LO, nearly 4 has turned into a fiery ball of fury in the last few weeks and strange things (such as cutting her pineapple too small?!?) set her off into a massive hysterical melt down. I use the 1,2,3 magic system with time outs (where you give two warnings and then your child gets an age appropriate time out) which was working, but no longer. Now I put her in time out and she goes mental, kicking the door, throwing things, crying, screaming etc for upwards of 30 minutes.  Tiredness and too many sugary treats appears to be a factor and melt downs are more likely during transitions (eg. needing to leave for daycare, going to an activity....which as you can imagine is really convenient).  I have also tried the positive parenting approach by attempting to calm and hug her, but she pretty much just attacks me (hitting scratching etc) if I go near her during a tantrum.   It is not daily (thank goodness), but I am wondering if anyone has any additional suggestions. We just started a reward chart for doing things independently, we are thankfully nearly done with our spring, which we have missed most of anyways. I have family coming once per week to watch her at home instead of taking her to daycare (because it is can be very busy and tiring there) and just generally are trying to keep things slow and consistent. I also have a dr. appointment scheduled (in 2 months...this is canada...there are wait times!).  Having said all that, we have some summer holiday plans coming up (mostly camping) and I am a little nervous about it.  I hope it is just a phase...but I thought the 2s were supposed to be terrible?!?  Not the almost 4's!??!?  My older child has a totally different and completely laid back personality so I am completely at a loss of how to approach this! 

hunniebun

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2016, 02:10:16 PM »
Thanks MNP - I am aim to be calm and non reactive, as well as no unnecessary talking.  Perhaps it is just taking a while to sink in.  She is otherwise perfectly happy and healthy, so I truly believe that it is a test/phase.  I like the idea of taking a photo or even a short video clip because she loves looking at family photo albums and making funny videos to watch with my phone. Perhaps this might help her to have a different perspective of her behavior. I'll let you know how it goes...

GizmoTX

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2016, 02:48:26 PM »
MNP: Spot on!

OP, I think the hug to calm during tantrums only works during the toddler age when they are frustrated over the difficulty in communication. The older child is going for a power play, & any negotiation or comforting is a big mistake. You may need to not go to an activity if a tantrum precedes it; her actions should have a logical consequence. I found time-outs to not be effective discipline, especially since I usually had to be constantly enforcing it. That's too much energy & attention on the parent's part & feeds the tantrum.

The "Love & Logic" system of discipline emphasizes the logical consequences method & really helped me deal calmly but firmly with our young DS, with no yelling or anger. You present a child with choices acceptable to you up front, once -- s/he retains the ability to choose but suffers a logical consequence for not cooperating.  Because I was always consistent, after a while all I had to ask DS was whether he was choosing a consequence if he continued any unacceptable behavior. You never want to tell a child what the consequence will be in advance, because s/he will then decide if it's worth it! (Often I didn't know & was glad that I didn't have to come up with one.) DS is now 22 & even the teenage years were painless with this approach.

tonysemail

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2016, 03:02:55 PM »
I hear ya.  my kids have awful tantrums too.
I have not figured out a silver bullet for them either.
Had a breakfast tantrum just this morning.

There was one thing nugget I read that really stuck with me though.
It was from this book-
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17383921-all-joy-and-no-fun

essentially, it argued that toddler brains are very undeveloped.
The prefrontal cortex which controls things like decision making, cause and effect, etc, is extremely undeveloped at age 4.
it's hard for the little one to understand cause and effect because her brain can't process it yet.

One of the tips was to try distraction.
I've used that and sometimes it works.
But it's more of a de-escalation tactic to use before the full blown tantrum hits.

hunniebun

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2016, 06:37:58 PM »
I think she is partly stuck in that age where things are starting to click a bit, but she just doesn't have the skills (lobe?) to put it all together.  I never give in and I always follow through, even when the tantrums last 30 minutes or if I have to hold the door closed to keep her in time out. So I don't know if it is a test or she just has an anger management problem (ie. she knows she is not going to get what she wants and is just so angry about it and doesn't know what else to do but lash out).   I think the logical consequences work when they are bit older and are logical. We use this my older son on the rare occasion he has a snit and it is easy as pie.  I have just never encountered such emotion!  Thanks for the feed back!

Livewell

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2016, 01:11:30 PM »
We have a four year old, we've found not feeding it and using short sentences once is the trick (still occassionalky fall into the repeat or negotiate trap).
We've found this article useful:

"When tantruming: stay close to her, don't use a lot of words, empathize ('you are so upset and angry...You don't like it when I say No...I see how mad you are...')

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2011/12/05/143062378/whats-behind-a-temper-tantrum-scientists-deconstruct-the-screams

"The trick in getting a tantrum to end as soon as possible, Potegal said, was to get the child past the peaks of anger. Once the child was past being angry, what was left was sadness, and sad children reach out for comfort. The quickest way past the anger, the scientists said, was to do nothing. Of course, that isn't easy for parents or caregivers to do.

Potegal advises moms and dads to ignore their freaking-out kiddo, and soon enough, the fury will subside, leaving a whole bunch of sadness. That’s when parents can swoop in. Sad children seek comfort, and sure enough, that’s just what mine did."



ahoy

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2016, 03:11:39 AM »
You  always hearing about 'The terrible twos", actually I  think its more like 'The God awful 3's and 4's'.    I do remember once I had a trolley load of food in the supermarket and my 3 year old had a melt down, so I abandoned the cart and we left. 

I think once you find something that works eg: the reward chart.  Stick with it. 

Camping may go better than you expect.  Kids love camping and being outdoors and simple things like walks and looking at leaves, throwing stones into the water they just love.

tthree

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2016, 07:16:13 PM »
I hope it is just a phase...but I thought the 2s were supposed to be terrible?!?  Not the almost 4's!??!?
As my mom informed early on it's the terrible twos, the trying threes and the fucking fours.  Apparently five year olds are fine;)

nvmama

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2016, 08:34:03 PM »
I hope it is just a phase...but I thought the 2s were supposed to be terrible?!?  Not the almost 4's!??!?
As my mom informed early on it's the terrible twos, the trying threes and the fucking fours.  Apparently five year olds are fine;)

I have to agree, but I would also say the fucking fives, because this year has been even worse than the fours.  However it's more one extreme or the other..so maybe the fabulous or fucking fives...it defends on the day.

FurtherJourneys

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2016, 06:39:05 AM »
Have you heard of RIE? It's a horribly non-descriptive acronym (resources for infant educarers) but the philosophy has been amazing for us, and it's not just for infants. I highly recommend Janet Lansbury's website, here's a link to some of her resources on tantrums:   http://www.janetlansbury.com/page/2/?s=tantrums

I also follow her Facebook page and find it helpful. Our almost 2 and 1/2 year old certainly has a lot of strong opinions, but we have yet to see a full meltdown type of tantrum. I attribute it to the communication and boundary setting skills we've developed thanks to her website. Good luck!

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2016, 08:09:04 AM »
Just chiming in to say you aren't alone. Be glad it isn't multiple times per day.

We've kind of gotten to the point where we just disengage, depending on the scale of the tantrum. If he's going to be kicking and screaming, he can do it by himself. I'm not going to get kicked in the face trying to get him to calm down when he can't hear me anyway.

rocketpj

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2016, 11:20:48 PM »
This too shall pass.

That said, clear and firm - and don't get caught up in it, even one bit.  Their tantrum is rooted in their growing awareness of a lack of power.  We have to find other ways to empower them while not giving an inch on tantrums - no matter how embarrassing it is if you are in public.

StarBright

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2016, 11:10:39 AM »
When my oldest was younger we often used the question  "Do you need comfort or do you need space?" When he seemed upset/tantrummy but was having trouble articulating what was wrong. It was a nifty trick from a daycare teacher and it was very helpful for us.

Now that he is 4 it works nicely in the reverse. If he is going crazy (past the point of listening) I simply walk away and he will often be very upset that I'm leaving him alone and ask me to stay.  I just say "I need space right now. I love you, but when you scream and hit at me, Mommy needs space." He is starting to realize that how he treats people affects whether or not anyone will want to be around him. Obviously this assumes that we are in our home when this is happening - otherwise I just make for the car and pray that we haven't disturbed too many people with his tantrum.

acroy

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2016, 11:22:48 AM »
We start the training early, between 9 and 12 months, as soon as they learn how to misbehave.

No 'terrible 2s', no tantrums. None, zero zilch nada. Much easier on kids & parents. My kids see a kid throwing a tantrum and are flummoxed, 'what is that? what is going on? something is wrong'.

We have a zero-tolerance rule for knowingly bad behavior (i.e. they know they're not supposed to climb on the shelf). They immediately get sent to the corner, no '2nd chances'. Warnings and second chances send the message that some bad behavior is ok; which is a terrible way to train a child.

Unknowingly bad behavior: they get a warning or 2. For instance: the command to 'be quiet' at a place/time that is not normal. They get a reminder or 2, in case they honestly forgot.

It's very important for the parents to be disciplined, firm, zero anger, consistent. The child brought it on them self through poor behavior, it is not us vs. them, it is not Mom/dad getting angry.

Gemma

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2016, 11:34:55 AM »
I just wanted to chime in - my oldest has had tantrums starting from age 18 months. She's now 7 and still has them occasionally, but thankfully not often anymore. It is a part of who she is and how she handles life when it doesn't go her way. When she was having tantrums (and for her, they got worse at 5, not better), she would totally lose control of herself and scream, hit, slam doors, etc. She didn't even know what she was doing anymore. I took video of her once and she didn't believe me and barely remembered it. Like what Livewell said, we would let it run it's course for a while because you can't do anything when she's in the middle of it anyway. Once she starts to calm down, then I hug and comfort her and we talk about it. We've set up a corner in our room with pillows and books as her frustration spot. We're working on teaching her that when she starts to feel frustrated or upset, to go there to calm down (instead of doing other things, like hitting her sisters), and distract herself with books or songs to get a hold of her emotions.

I brought it up with our doctor as well. Her advice was to keep doing what we are doing, and that as long as she doesn't exhibit this behavior while she's in school, then she is in control of it to a degree and it happens at home because she is more comfortable there. She wasn't worried about it.

TrMama

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2016, 11:48:54 AM »
I think she is partly stuck in that age where things are starting to click a bit, but she just doesn't have the skills (lobe?) to put it all together.  I never give in and I always follow through, even when the tantrums last 30 minutes or if I have to hold the door closed to keep her in time out. So I don't know if it is a test or she just has an anger management problem (ie. she knows she is not going to get what she wants and is just so angry about it and doesn't know what else to do but lash out).   I think the logical consequences work when they are bit older and are logical. We use this my older son on the rare occasion he has a snit and it is easy as pie.  I have just never encountered such emotion!  Thanks for the feed back!

I also have one steady, stoic, even keeled kid and one who is extremely sensitive and has "big feelings". She'e either super happy or despondent. You've probably already figured this out, but you will likely need to take a different parenting approach to your DD that you do with your DS.

My sensitive, reactive kid can have absolutely epic tantrums. If we ignore the tantrum to let her "scream it out" she only escalates. She'll scream and cry for hours until she finally passes out. Needless to say, we have only let this happen a couple times and I completely regret those times. We've had much better outcomes when we take a very gentle, sensitive approach to parenting her.

Outsiders obviously think we're "letting her get away with" bad behaviour. However, our experience has been that when we listen to her complaints (whining) and then patiently explain why X is necessary, we get compliant behaviour. The level of tantrums decreases because she trusts us to listen to her and take her concerns seriously. If we say, "Do X because I told you too and stop whining" we still get compliant behaviour, but the number and level of tantrums in the following weeks increases enormously.

That was just a really long winded way of saying, traditional parenting advice doesn't always for kids who may be outliers.

hunniebun

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2016, 11:01:37 AM »
TRmama - Thank you for your input. I think I struggle with the 'letting her get away with bad behavior' vs. giving her what she needs.   I have learned that when she is over tired (missed nap because we are out doing something fun, etc.) it is 100% worth it to just go with the flow (ie. let her be whiny/bossy/rude, with only a reminder that this is not kind or respectful behaviour, but not active time out etc.) because otherwise, the meltdown escalates to uncontrolled proportions. I think she is getting better at regulating these intense emotions in normal circumstances and I have had no hitting over the last week or so, which is good.  I also started a sticker reward chart for good cooperative behaviour (which I have sort of poo-pooed in the past) and much to my surprise it is working!   You are so right that what worked for one kid, doesn't work for another. I learned that with sleep training...for ds we did a modified cry it out at 6 months which lasted about 15 minutes and he has pretty much slept through since there. Tried the same approach with dd at 8 months and the crying lasted for over an hour until I couldn't take one more second and I have been rocking her to sleep every night since.  LOL!

It is just a struggle sometimes to be firm but respecting what they need as little people!

LiveLean

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2016, 12:24:57 PM »
We put our kids through swim lessons starting at 3.

When we'd get meltdowns, I'd simply carry them outside to the pool and throw them in, clothes and all.

This usually cooled them off -- literally and figuratively.

We live in Florida and this won't be a solution for everyone. We had or niece over for a few nights last week. She's 7 but still throws tantrums like a 3-year-old. My sister, unfortunately, wouldn't let me use this technique.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2016, 12:27:57 PM »
Sounds like a smack is in order.

cheapass

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2016, 09:19:29 PM »
I hear ignoring them until they act like a human being works

Allie

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2016, 11:34:06 PM »
I was talking to my son's preschool teacher about the fact that he had turned from a nice, well behaved little boy into an emotional nut ball around the end of April.  She let me know that all little Alaskan kids go through a rough patch when the weather warms up and the sun comes back.  She recommended we scale back activities and increase sleep to help him cope with all of the fun that starts up.  She was right, the kids were playing outside much later, started swim lessons, and had lots of activities being scheduled.  When we backed off, instituted bedtimes and wake ups (my little morning boy isn't allowed up and about until 7:30 on his giant clock) that lead to more sleep, and made sure we made time for relaxation, he calmed down quite a bit.

She may be going through an internal growth spurt where she is trying to pull together increased awareness and abilities.  When she's not amped up, try stretching the rules and responsibilities.  Give her the option to try new things or do more things by herself before she has a tantrum.  If she is seeking more independence, it may work out well if you give her the option to learn new stuff and see how she does.

Should you listen to my advice.  Doubtful.

Today my daughter, who is almost 3, started walking away.  I didn't realize she wasn't going to come back until I called her, she turned, told me "NO!" Started laughing hysterically, and took off running.  Thankfully I am far faster than she is so I caught up to her when she had only run into the middle of one lane of a busy parking lot.  I scooped her up, swatted her butt, and gave her a dressing down like you wouldn't believe.  I got to hear other mothers using her as the example for bad behavior...did you see how that little girl ran into traffic...never be like her...see how she scared her mother and got smacked?...you would never do that, right?...

A+ parenting here!

ubermom4

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2016, 03:25:07 PM »
Zero tolerance for tantrums/bad behavior. Period. If the child is ill/issues  that is different. You were awesome to videotape these events. Pediatrician told me to do that and it worked pretty well. We had 4 kids within 5 years and it could be loud/chaotic and there was plenty of bad behavior. As a child when I was naughty (and boy, was I), I was placed in a room by myself (not my bedroom) sitting on a chair and facing the wall. The 'timeout' was not invented in the 1960s. My mother would warn me once and then I would get the chair (usually it was in the dining room). No talking, no moving, no stimulation -- just waiting for my mom to let me out.

This chair thing is amazingly effective. My kids knew immediately after their warning what would ensue and they changed their behavior quickly. With 4 kids we did have to have 2 chairs in use at the same time (fond memories). Being sent to the bedroom is not nearly as punishing as sitting in the chair with no stimuli whatsoever. We would talk about why they are in the chair and 'how to get out'. If they kept calling for me, then I would explain the system and they would be in the chair longer. If they got up and ran away (this happened when I watched other peoples kids), I caught them re-explained the system and put them back in the chair. One quiet minute in the chair is a very, very long time for a child.

I think in some way removing all stimulation and separating the child allows the child to better focus and calm down when they are out of control. Sitting in the chair is also a big marker for the child that their behavior has crossed a line.

Bad behavior or tantrums in public resulted in one warning and then removal from the venue. We would get up and leave the restaurant, grocery store, wherever -- this was inconvenient at times but the child learned the rules quickly. No one wants to leave the restaurant hungry and go home with no dinner. If we were in  a place we could not leave (family reunion, etc) I would take the child outside and put them on the ground in the traveling 'timeout' chair.

Once the children clearly know the rules and are old enough, the bad behavior really drops off. They need to learn the rules and will test you until they decide you are never going to give in. They need to learn what behavior is not allowed, otherwise they will keep doing the bad stuff all day long.

This makes me sound like a real harshy but it is not so. It is best to try to make things easy for your child -- not going to the grocery store at 5p when they are hungry, not eating in a restaurant at 10p when they are sleepy, not shopping during nap/quiet time, etc. We all need to know what the rules are and how we can meet them.

I firmly agree with the child getting plenty of sleep -- going to bed earlier and fewer activities. Bad behavior can be an indication of tiredness for all of us. I love the posting about throwing them in the pool with clothes on -- excellent!

However you decide to proceed, you must agree with other parent and be 100% firm with your plan. Implementation of a new system will be challenged at first.  Hope this helps. Good luck!

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2016, 12:36:01 PM »
I have recently become a slightly embarrassed fan of old episodes of 'Supernanny'. Her system is pretty much the "chair" thing described above but what is emphasised so much on the programme is that EVERYONE who is in charge of the children regularly (mum, dad, grandparents...) has to do the warning-then-punishment PROPERLY and in the same way EVERY time. There needs to be consistency in where the line is and what happens when they cross it. I'm sure it's all hyped up for television, but she seems to be able to turn wild children into acceptable ones in about three days, and the curve of awfulness comes down very sharply when they realise that the parents are serious and consistent.

FLBiker

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2016, 07:56:07 AM »
Lots of good tips here, thanks!  DD is just under 15 months, and not tantrum prone, but I'm definitely going to remember this stuff.

For us, distraction and not engaging has been key.  For example, DD frequently cries when she realizes its bathtime.  I just keep moving forward (filling the tub, getting her undressed, etc.) and talking calmly.  I try to engage her in something else (looking at pictures on the wall, saying hello to the water as it fills the tub, etc.)  She typically calms down almost immediately, and always by the time the tub is filled.  Actual bathtime (meaning being in the tub) has always has gone very well, she just doesn't like the transition because she knows playtime is over.

PFHC

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2016, 11:23:10 PM »
What has worked wonders for us is to create a "road" with clear boundaries. We want our kids to have confidence and to make their own way in life, thus the broad road, but there are very firm boundaries. One is tantrums.

First step is to ignore it for a while. Distraction, walking away, talking to your husband or other children works well. As the kid becomes old enough to reason with, you can talk it over with them. If they continue to throw the fit, then calmly tell them this, "If you'd like to talk, we can talk. If you'd like to [cry, scream, kick, etc.], then it will be time for a time out. What would you like to do?" 100% of the time with our son, he calms down enough to continue to talk. His angers often reignites, at which time we just go back to saying the above.

If the child is too young to reason, give them a calm warning that time out will happen at the count of three. If you reach three, then the kiddo is placed in time out. The level of misbehavior determines the time out.

Time out: At a young age, it often requires them standing in a corner. There were rules there. You must be standing, quiet, with no kicking, hitting, or moving. At that young age, keep the time appropriate. 30 seconds for 2 year olds, and a max of 3-5 minutes for 3-4 year olds. Once this precedent has been established, you rarely need to reach counting to 2. As they age and gain the ability to reason, time out changes. We start calling it a break and it can be as simple as going to their room or a reading nook to read. We usually give them a choice (read in the nook or in your bedroom, or go outside for a walk or sit down for some painting) and let them know it is not a punishment. Giving them a choice helps them to retain a feeling of some control which helps to curb the lashing out. Reassure them that you are just helping them to calm down.

If they fight back about time out, then give them another option that is significantly less desirable. Going to bed is our stand by.

Consequences: We have used consequences to relatively good success. They need to be appropriate, consistent, and actionable. For instance, if our son wrecks something, we don't get mad, he just has to pay to replace a portion of it (within reason). If he hits his sister, he goes to bed. If she doesn't stay in bed, then she loses her stuffed animal for the night. For physical reinforcement, we avoid spanking. A far more effective show of force, that is much less violent, is to pick them up and carry them to another room, set them down, and calmly talk to them. That helps to shake them out of whatever mindset they were in before.

Rewards: We are hesitant to attach tangible rewards to behavior. For instance we do not tie allowance or gifts to good behavior. The rewards we do give are less tangible. We are a very affectionate family, and are free with hugs and snuggles and "I love yous". Our basic plan is that if you behave and are a contributing member of the house, then there are many rewards. We have tons of fun. We go fun places, we play as a family, we have adventures. These are everyone's to share because our kids are well behaved and good people. Be sure to be present and react positively (sometime overly so), when they have good behavior. Whenever we leave a place, if the kids were good, we often thank them liberally. If the mood is right, it may include a fun treat for the family.

I have to stop because there is so much to say about this. Tantrums segue into behavior in general, and there are volumes to be written about that subject.

The big things here are:
  • Be calm. It does no good to do this in anger. If you do get angry, take a time out yourself.
  • Be consistent! If you say it is time for time out, follow through.
  • Be kind. To yourself and child. You both are only human. If you make a mistake, or perhaps make a punishment that is too severe, apologize. Don't let them go to bed mad or sad. Be sure you let them know how much you love them.
  • Be patient. With them, and you.

TL;DR
Create a broad road with clear boundaries for your kids. Be calm, consistent, kind, and patient, Set boundaries and follow them. Time out works, but give them a choice on what it is (once they can reason). Set clear consequences. Reward liberally, but not so much tangibly.

Good luck! Being a parent is a joy! Just shower them, yourself, your spouse, hell everyone, with love (which includes tough love) and you'll be great!

Cassie

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2016, 05:52:22 PM »
As someone suggested reading the book "Love and Logic" written by a teacher that lost his temper at a student and hit him -it has another author too but I have forgot.  It is great and effective from the age of 1 on. We also used putting kids to bed early.  Dr. Rosemond uses a technique called "The Doctor". Basically you tell the child that you called a doctor-not their doctor-and he/she said the child must not be getting enough sleep. So everytime there is a tantrum the child has to go to bed early for 2 weeks. If they go 2 weeks without one then they can revert to normal bedtime. He said that when parents do this most problems disappear after a few months but you must remain consistent.

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Re: Dealing with Tantrums?
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2016, 02:03:28 PM »
We've had weeks of bad behavior and then weeks of great behavior. Kids are little assholes. Wonderful, fun, creative assholes. Sometimes I'm an asshole too though, so I think it happens and we dramatize it.