Should we nudge* our kids toward lucrative careers?

[lookingforadelorean]

I'm way on the other side of the spectrum from being a tiger mom, but the more I learn about FIRE, the more I wonder whether I should encourage our kids to pursue careers with high earning potential. Of course, my husband and I want them to be happy, first and foremost, but happiness can be achieved in multiple ways at multiple levels. How much emphasis do we put on the financial impact of their career decisions?

*This is absolutely not a question about any kind of ultimatum-style parenting. "You'll pursue a tech career or I'm not paying for college!" No, no, no. When I say "nudge," I'm referring to talking to our kids about signing up for a coding class or outlining the financial pros/cons to various majors or weighing the financial benefits of trade school vs. college vs. no post-secondary education, etc.

[Millennialworkerbee]

I’ll bite. My oldest is 3 and so we have a couple years before we tackle this. I’m interested to hear what others have to say.

From my own childhood, what my parents did right:
- Encouraged me to pick non traditional (read: non-sports) hobbies. I sang in musicals and did mathletes. I played sports but only at the recreational level, especially once I got up into high school).
- Talk a lot about what interests lead to what majors in college, which lead to what degree that pays how much out of college.
- Made me financially invested in my college success via school loans
- Made sure I have plenty of low-wage jobs starting at age 12 and worked through college.
- Once I was in college, made me responsible (via those loans mentioned earlier) for rent, food, gas, etc.
- At points when my siblings and I were thinking of non-lucrative careers, we weren’t told NO but we were told that choosing that option would mean more financial hardship compared to other more well-compensated options.

The specific example of coding camp: heck yes encourage that! But I personally wouldn’t put the pressure of a career in that conversation (I’m guessing that wasn’t your intention anyway). But I’d also encourage any camp they had an interest in. A big part of childhood is developing hobbies too!

[lookingforadelorean]

Great points, @Millennialworkerbee. I often forget how hard I worked as a teen/young adult compared to my sister (who is enough younger that her lifestyle was dramatically influenced when our mother remarried a wealthy man). I have zero doubt those differences played a significant role in our later financial decisions. And I'm personally nowhere near FIRE, so let that sink in.

[DadJokes]

I would probably incentivize my child to find the ROI on any career he plans to pursue. I would be much less likely to financially support a liberal arts degree than a STEM or business degree, but my real hope is that I've raised a self-sufficient adult who understands finances, so that he is making intentional choices by then.

[marble_faun]

Who knows if coding will still be lucrative 30 years from now? 

I would encourage them to challenge themselves intellectually on many fronts so that they can adapt to whatever the future brings.  I also want them to know what it's like to work a thankless, low-wage job so that they understand what a lifetime of that would be like. From there they can make the decision of what to do with their lives.

[Metalcat]

Instead of nudging them towards particular types of careers, just educate them about finance, and what makes a career more lucrative, and the trade offs they'll need to make for higher incomes.

I have a classic "high income" career that A LOT of parents try to push their kids towards, and I'm the first one to caution them against that.

I think it's more important to educate them on how to identify what they love and that what they love in terms of work can be found in a variety of industries, that there are creative and interesting ways to have a solid well-paying job while still nurturing your passions.

There tends to be the absurd dichotomy of "stereotypical high paying jobs vs starving artist type jobs" and it's pretty nonsensical.

Also, there's a really disproportionate focus on what kind of starting salary they can make right out of school, which is a pretty nonsense metric. Students often totally devalue humanities degrees because they don't directly lead to a well paying job, meanwhile, they disregard the enormous skills that humanities degrees confer, which could help with career progression along the way, and actually open a lot more doors down the road.

I think the best thing you can do is teach that the options available to them are nearly endless, but that all financial success comes at a cost of having to combine hard work with strategic choices.

Also, get them volunteering young, I volunteered with my dad my entire childhood and it taught me A LOT about what work is like, what kind of work I enjoyed, what roles I naturally gravitated towards when part of a team, etc.
That way they aren't making major career decisions with virtually zero comprehension of what work is like.

[GizmoTX]

Absolutely! Kids have no idea what pays & what doesn't. They get glamorized messages but no reality. Parents should encourage them to research all aspects of a career, including pay, work conditions, future growth. Some of this starts with a variety of activities to help them learn & see what they enjoy and are good at. Have a discussion of what kind of work each could become, who does it, what does it take.

Our son was an active Boy Scout; almost every merit badge has a career investigation requirement. It's not to sell the badge topic as a career, but to open the mind to the wide world, & it's a useful exercise. He did the Entrepreneur badge, which required that he start & run a business for 6 months -- he grew & sold tomatoes, which netted him $400 profit. Since he already had the equipment, he chose to do it the following summer. Is he a farmer? No, but he certainly appreciates all the hard work. He initially loved coding & gaming summer camps, so he interned his jr & sr HS summers at a small startup tech company, where he was exposed to many facets of engineering. This really helped him to zero in on college & major.

As a kid starts narrowing the career field, start discussing how to make the education for it cost effective & suitable. Also discuss that the career is likely to be several careers, one growing into another -- few get a job for life these days. STEM especially has a time limit of about ten years where more education or a transition into management or a different career is necessary.

[MayDay]

We talk a lot with our kids (9 and 11) about this. We tell them we want them to be happy in life, and some of that is liking their jobs, some is affording the fun stuff. We've explained that a lot of the fun stuff they get is only happening because Mom and Dad chose to be engineers.

We also have a built in example- their aunt is a cook and never went to college (nothing wrong with that!) And they see their cousin not getting to go on vacation, not getting to go to camps, etc.

Ultimately I don't care what they do, but I will be much less likely to fund it if doesn't have a good ROI.

I also think we will make a concerted effort to show them what the options are, and how their strengths and weaknesses fit. And ditto the PP's who mentioned jobs! I don't have to worry about that motivating them though :) they think 8-10$ is unbearably low and are already trying to figure out how to make more than that! Haha.

[A Fella from Stella]

It worked for Millennial Revolution.

She wanted to write children's books. Her dad said, "okay, but you're on your on if it doesn't work out."

To that she said COMPUTER PROGRAMMING. She has written 2 books now, and seems to be okay.

[lookingforadelorean]

It worked for Millennial Revolution.

She wanted to write children's books. Her dad said, "okay, but you're on your on if it doesn't work out."

To that she said COMPUTER PROGRAMMING. She has written 2 books now, and seems to be okay.

I'm not familiar with her story. Did she FIRE and then write the books? That's the thing -- after becoming so much more aware about the advantages to this lifestyle, I can't help but wonder if we encourage our kids to buckle down with something lucrative so they have WAY more time to pursue their passions freely?

[A Fella from Stella]

It worked for Millennial Revolution.

She wanted to write children's books. Her dad said, "okay, but you're on your on if it doesn't work out."

To that she said COMPUTER PROGRAMMING. She has written 2 books now, and seems to be okay.

I'm not familiar with her story. Did she FIRE and then write the books? That's the thing -- after becoming so much more aware about the advantages to this lifestyle, I can't help but wonder if we encourage our kids to buckle down with something lucrative so they have WAY more time to pursue their passions freely?

Kristy Shen is her name. Yes, she fired then wrote a kid's book.

More recently, she wrote "Quit Like a Millionaire," which addresses this specific issue.

[Luz]

No way! Teach them how to stay out of consumer debt, navigate education costs, live below their means, and invest their savings, but let them figure out what career brings them joy.

My parents gave my siblings and I complete freedom. They were super firm with us behaviorally, but totally hands-off in terms of controlling our choices (as long as those choices didn't cross the line behaviorally). They gave us as much freedom as we could possibly handle from a very young age. And what a gift that was!

 I was totally unaware of the financial implications of my field compared to others when I set out on my path. But would that have changed anything? Nope! I LOVE what I do. Why would I get into a more lucrative career just so I can retire early, and then finally do what I want....when I can do what I want throughout my life (as long as I have reasonable financial freedom through staying out of consumer debt, living below my means, and investing my savings)? So, choosing a career that is fascinating and meaningful is so much more important than choosing one for a certain income-level, in my opinion. In fact, the latter sounds kind've soul-crushing.

I think that most parents feel reasonable when they're trying to nudge (rather than force) their kids in a direction they feel is in the kid's best interest. But it's still controlling. In fact, I think this generation of parents has a real problem with interfering in their kid's lives when it's not their place to do so. The coding class? Unless your kid is up late at night devouring tech books or says, "hey, that class looks cool", then no!

I got.a liberal arts degree. It was during those years of studying for a "useless" degree that I figured out what I wanted to do with my life. When I finished my degree, I went to graduate school to get the specific qualifications. You never know where your kid's paths might lead. And I so appreciate that my parents weren't constantly making covert suggestions about what I should do with my life whenever I called home. Because they would have been wrong.

Although I will say this: if your kids follow their interests, there is a chance (though I wouldn't say a greater chance) they may end up having a more modest lifestyle than the one they enjoy now. Nothing wrong with that! As long as they know how to live below their means, no matter what those means are. So part of the financial education could be about your particular lifestyle and the sort of income it takes to finance that, if they hope to maintain it. Just so they don't expect it as a given and take it for granted (which I would argue is important to teach them anyway).  The conversation would not, however, include what careers would be best for supporting that lifestyle/savings rate.

[Millennialworkerbee]

Love the other responses and came back to add more:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/can-you-unfulfilled-work-still-fulfilled-life-aaron-hurst/


Also second the idea of being “creative” to get your needs met in a non traditional way. I am a really creative person, but I also love math. Who would have known data analytics & visualization has so much creativity in it? I wouldn’t have unless I shadowed a data analyst!

Also, both my sister and I (the musical theater nerds growing up) consistently get praised at how confident we are in executive presentations at work (while being the youngest in the room). A business presentation uses the same public speaking and self confidence that playing a part in a musical does!

Also, the point about humanities degrees is a good one. In the future, the things that make us human like the ability to reason, be creative, etc is what people will look for. Coding as we know it won’t exist for our kids, robots are already writing their own code.

[Luz]

@DadJokes and @MayDay
Yes, funding your child's education is an investment, but not a financial one. You aren't going to get a ROI unless the kid happens to support you in old age.
I don't think the decision to fund based on the lucrativeness of the career therefore makes sense. If you are investing in them as a person, wouldn't you want them to pursue their interests? Better that they fund their own way and pursue what they find interesting than you selecting what you will and won't fund.

[Jenny Wren]

We nudged on finances, not so much career choices. We simply took the tactic of teaching short and long term goal planning and then had plenty of discussions once high school hit about planning education/careers to reach the goal. What we didn't do is teach that the career is the be all, end all goal. Instead, it's just a means of reaching the goal.

We have a nearly 19 year old that is a junior at uni, and a 14 yr old. Our 19 yr old wanted to be an artist. Yes, there are lucrative careers in art, but there aren't many for the demand. My spouse is a professional artist, and we know first hand how fickle income can be.

So, we encouraged art, but we also educated hard on finances and helped him with strategies that are getting him at least his Bachelor's with no debt (We DO NOT pay for college. We are not solvent enough to do so. We did provide lots of support in finding alternative funding/scholarships/state programs and helped with books/supplies). In fact, he is more MMM than we are at this point. His goal is to get a post grad in education (also with no debt), work hard at it for 10-15 years while saving maximum income, then retire to pursue his artistic goals.

Youngest is my science kid, takes after me. He is undecided at this point, mainly because he can't decided between astrophysicist, engineer, geneticist, and evolutionary biologist ;) We'll see where he is at after his first year or two of college. If he pursues these goals, then yes, his career and his goals may end up being the same, but they don't have to be.

[DadJokes]

@DadJokes and @MayDay
Yes, funding your child's education is an investment, but not a financial one. You aren't going to get a ROI unless the kid happens to support you in old age.
I don't think the decision to fund based on the lucrativeness of the career therefore makes sense. If you are investing in them as a person, wouldn't you want them to pursue their interests? Better that they fund their own way and pursue what they find interesting than you selecting what you will and won't fund.

I'm not talking about the ROI for me. I'm talking about the ROI for him. I'll be retired before he even goes to college.

Depending on interests, there is room for compromise between passion and ROI. I wouldn't support a decision to get any degree unless he can show me that the income post-college will justify the cost of college.

[Freedomin5]

I’d also nudge on finances but not career choice. To nudge on career, you need to know everything about every possible career out there, and not just base your “advice” on what you think you know about certain careers.

For example, how much do you know about speech therapists and their careers? It takes a linguistic degree and a masters. What about epidemiology? Acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine? The point is that there may be lots of well-paying careers out there that you know nothing about. How can you guide your child based on a narrow and uninformed opinion?

I was “guided” as a child towards computer programming, engineering, medicine, law, business, etc. because those were the jobs my parents knew about. But I flamed out and eventually pursued an area I did enjoy with which my parents are unfamiliar, and now make more than I would’ve in any of the above mentioned fields, with a better work schedule. The kicker is that I was told by multiple people that I would not be able to find a job or make any money.

My point is there are likely thousands of jobs that you know nothing about, in which case it’s better to teach your kids how to explore the prospects themselves. If they’re interested in underwater basket weaving, have them shadow and interview several. Some underwater basket weavers make a pittance, others have found a way to market themselves in such a way that they make a good living. Just like in my current profession. I make a lot, but some of my colleagues make a lot less.

[Luz]

@DadJokes and @MayDay
Yes, funding your child's education is an investment, but not a financial one. You aren't going to get a ROI unless the kid happens to support you in old age.
I don't think the decision to fund based on the lucrativeness of the career therefore makes sense. If you are investing in them as a person, wouldn't you want them to pursue their interests? Better that they fund their own way and pursue what they find interesting than you selecting what you will and won't fund.

I'm not talking about the ROI for me. I'm talking about the ROI for him. I'll be retired before he even goes to college.

Depending on interests, there is room for compromise between passion and ROI. I wouldn't support a decision to get any degree unless he can show me that the income post-college will justify the cost of college.

 It just sounds like you have the power to veto and I am only suggesting that doing so may be in no one's best interest. He may go into the decision fully aware of what it means financially at certain points, but still choose the less lucrative path for more compelling reasons.

My undergrad was on those "lowest paying degrees" lists. But it was a super important stepping stone to get to where I needed to go. Some people had it figured out at 18, but for the rest of us, it takes a little exploring to find the right fit. I also know a number of people that made a choice at 18 and invested in their path, only to discover that their heart was not in it and they completely burned out. I'm just saying that keeping things open may be the best (quality of life) bet in the long run.

[DadJokes]

I can't veto, as he's an individual, and I will expect him to be able to make decisions for himself long before that point. If it were entirely up to me, I would also expect him to be able to pay his own way through school, regardless of his degree choice, as I did, but I don't think the wife is as on board with that idea as I am.

My job at that point in his life is to advise him. I can agree with his decision or choose not to support it.

If I were paying for it, I would probably choose not to pay if he did not show me that the income could justify the expense. If he can shadow people who followed his desired career path, develop a presentation from research with facts and figures and sway me, then I'll support whatever he chooses to do. What I don't want is for him to go to college (or do anything) without a plan.

I originally went to school to get a degree in economics. I had never met anyone with such a degree, and had no concrete idea what I would do with it. That's what I want my child to avoid.

However, that's 17+ years from now, so I'm sure the environment will look entirely different than it does today. I'm just a planner, and I like to be prepared.

[Chris Pascale]

Yes, but in the areas that they like, or are good at, which is often only found in a wide array of experience.

Many jobs

My huge mistake as a teen was keeping the same job for 5 years. After a few months I learned everything there was to learn.

My oldest, in contrast, has worked in a nursing home, a grocery store, and is now a gardener. Today, she's 18, and applied to be a bank teller.

What is fascinating is that having hindsight on the nursing home job, which she was so glad to leave, she said, "it was really great knowing that I could help people feel better just by listening, or playing chess, or reading the newspaper."

Nudge them into a variety of jobs if you can.

[Metalcat]

@DadJokes and @MayDay
Yes, funding your child's education is an investment, but not a financial one. You aren't going to get a ROI unless the kid happens to support you in old age.
I don't think the decision to fund based on the lucrativeness of the career therefore makes sense. If you are investing in them as a person, wouldn't you want them to pursue their interests? Better that they fund their own way and pursue what they find interesting than you selecting what you will and won't fund.

I'm not talking about the ROI for me. I'm talking about the ROI for him. I'll be retired before he even goes to college.

Depending on interests, there is room for compromise between passion and ROI. I wouldn't support a decision to get any degree unless he can show me that the income post-college will justify the cost of college.

And as I said above, this kind of dichotomous illusion about education and careers is, in my opinion, pretty unrepresentative of the actual working world.

Very few degrees lead directly to jobs, and those that do lead to a very limited selection of jobs. That doesn't mean that the degrees that don't lead to jobs have no career value, they just tend to have the most value down the line. This type of training also doesn't close any doors and leaves those with good networking skills in the best position to pivot in times of change and challenge.

I say this as someone who formerly worked in staffing and the majority of people in my life are high earners with humanities degrees.

So yeah, I tend to hammer home not that kids need to only get degrees that will "pay off", but that it's not the degree that pays off at all, it's the work they do to build a career *after* that degree is done.

ETA:
Just wanted to add that I went to a particular highschool where virtually all of the kids' parents nudged them to become doctors and lawyers.

As a result, I now know A LOT of really depressed doctors and lawyers.

[MayDay]

@DadJokes and @MayDay
Yes, funding your child's education is an investment, but not a financial one. You aren't going to get a ROI unless the kid happens to support you in old age.
I don't think the decision to fund based on the lucrativeness of the career therefore makes sense. If you are investing in them as a person, wouldn't you want them to pursue their interests? Better that they fund their own way and pursue what they find interesting than you selecting what you will and won't fund.

I'm not talking about the ROI for me. I'm talking about the ROI for him. I'll be retired before he even goes to college.

Depending on interests, there is room for compromise between passion and ROI. I wouldn't support a decision to get any degree unless he can show me that the income post-college will justify the cost of college.

I agree. To add on, I am happy for my kids to pursue any interest that they care to. Good for them! But I don't feel inclined to throw 20k a year at them for is likely to become a glorified hobby.

Now for any given degree, they could convince me there is a career path and that I should help fund it. But certainly I'm not writing the check for them to pursue an interest for fun or to pursue a career with an extremely low success rate.

ETA: I don't care what my kids study, but I will nudge them to explore things that I think they should (which means I give them the exposure to see if they like it) and require them to have a clear plan before I fund anything. 

[Gin1984]

No way! Teach them how to stay out of consumer debt, navigate education costs, live below their means, and invest their savings, but let them figure out what career brings them joy.

My parents gave my siblings and I complete freedom. They were super firm with us behaviorally, but totally hands-off in terms of controlling our choices (as long as those choices didn't cross the line behaviorally). They gave us as much freedom as we could possibly handle from a very young age. And what a gift that was!

 I was totally unaware of the financial implications of my field compared to others when I set out on my path. But would that have changed anything? Nope! I LOVE what I do. Why would I get into a more lucrative career just so I can retire early, and then finally do what I want....when I can do what I want throughout my life (as long as I have reasonable financial freedom through staying out of consumer debt, living below my means, and investing my savings)? So, choosing a career that is fascinating and meaningful is so much more important than choosing one for a certain income-level, in my opinion. In fact, the latter sounds kind've soul-crushing.

I think that most parents feel reasonable when they're trying to nudge (rather than force) their kids in a direction they feel is in the kid's best interest. But it's still controlling. In fact, I think this generation of parents has a real problem with interfering in their kid's lives when it's not their place to do so. The coding class? Unless your kid is up late at night devouring tech books or says, "hey, that class looks cool", then no!

I got.a liberal arts degree. It was during those years of studying for a "useless" degree that I figured out what I wanted to do with my life. When I finished my degree, I went to graduate school to get the specific qualifications. You never know where your kid's paths might lead. And I so appreciate that my parents weren't constantly making covert suggestions about what I should do with my life whenever I called home. Because they would have been wrong.

Although I will say this: if your kids follow their interests, there is a chance (though I wouldn't say a greater chance) they may end up having a more modest lifestyle than the one they enjoy now. Nothing wrong with that! As long as they know how to live below their means, no matter what those means are. So part of the financial education could be about your particular lifestyle and the sort of income it takes to finance that, if they hope to maintain it. Just so they don't expect it as a given and take it for granted (which I would argue is important to teach them anyway).  The conversation would not, however, include what careers would be best for supporting that lifestyle/savings rate.

I don't understand that attitude.  Exposure to many different things is great for kids, so is trying things that may not seem interesting because they may realize they are interesting.

[cats]

I agree with what some others have said where it's hard to say if something as specific as coding will be valuable in 20-30 yrs time.  I have to say also that from what I have observed as a working adult...people in management positions (making very high salaries) often do NOT have much in the way of technical skills.  Even if they are managing technically skilled workers.  Also, there are plenty of examples of very skilled scientists, mathematicians, etc. having a creative pursuit on the side that seems to help with their science/math achievements (i.e. Einstein was a pretty good violinist!).

I do think I would encourage my kid to take as many challenging classes as possible, simply because it's good to develop a work ethic and learn that working hard can bring satisfaction and rewards.  I think also as far as extracurriculars go (e.g. coding camps) we will probably try out a few and see what "takes".  I would be somewhat hesitant to really invest heavily in interests like music, art, or drama if my kid wasn't *really* into them (like, showing a level of passion and skill that indicated they might be able to make a go of it professionally), whereas for something like a science camp I might be more inclined to sign them up on the basis of only moderate interest and try to help/nudge them through periods of it being not super fun.   So yes, I guess I will be doing some nudging...

My husband and I are both scientists and I think that alone is probably going to guarantee that our kid gets a certain amount of predisposition to go in that direction unless we make a conscious effort to discourage it (at least, that's what happened to me with my two STEM parents...).

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

Instead of nudging them towards particular types of careers, just educate them about finance, and what makes a career more lucrative, and the trade offs they'll need to make for higher incomes.

I have a classic "high income" career that A LOT of parents try to push their kids towards, and I'm the first one to caution them against that.

I think it's more important to educate them on how to identify what they love and that what they love in terms of work can be found in a variety of industries, that there are creative and interesting ways to have a solid well-paying job while still nurturing your passions.

There tends to be the absurd dichotomy of "stereotypical high paying jobs vs starving artist type jobs" and it's pretty nonsensical.

Also, there's a really disproportionate focus on what kind of starting salary they can make right out of school, which is a pretty nonsense metric. Students often totally devalue humanities degrees because they don't directly lead to a well paying job, meanwhile, they disregard the enormous skills that humanities degrees confer, which could help with career progression along the way, and actually open a lot more doors down the road.

I think the best thing you can do is teach that the options available to them are nearly endless, but that all financial success comes at a cost of having to combine hard work with strategic choices.

Also, get them volunteering young, I volunteered with my dad my entire childhood and it taught me A LOT about what work is like, what kind of work I enjoyed, what roles I naturally gravitated towards when part of a team, etc.
That way they aren't making major career decisions with virtually zero comprehension of what work is like.

Genuine question here. I knew growing up that I was good at science and math...engineering was almost inevitable. I enjoy it although I would have enjoyed a lot of things. My wife had a similar path. Most people I interact with (myself included at times) have made fun of humanities degrees, especially unspecific humanities degrees. By this, I mean, when my wife graduated at a private college that worked out well for her to save money even over a public college because of her particular situation in a degree that conferred good earnings, many others graduated with bachelors in liberal arts or bachelors in philosophy or whatnot. They paid a crap ton of money for a private school for that...? In my very anecdotal experience, this has translated to very low paying jobs that are taken out of need for the people I know of that fit into this, or in other situations, they have moved on into something like running an organic farm where I would think they could have done it almost as well without the degree with a lot less costs. This does not include people that get, for instance, a masters in psychology to be a psychiatrist or something of that nature. As it stands now, if my kid didn't know what they wanted to do or if they wanted to get a bachelors in philosophy to get a degree or because they liked philosophy or whatever, I would in clear conscious actively discourage that. What is the benefit of a general humanities degree like this? I wouldn't look at education totally from cost benefit standpoint, but do these humanities degrees really give you something that makes up for the costs? Do they open doors/give you some sort of insight that you wouldn't have had without it that can justify the costs?

[Gin1984]

Instead of nudging them towards particular types of careers, just educate them about finance, and what makes a career more lucrative, and the trade offs they'll need to make for higher incomes.

I have a classic "high income" career that A LOT of parents try to push their kids towards, and I'm the first one to caution them against that.

I think it's more important to educate them on how to identify what they love and that what they love in terms of work can be found in a variety of industries, that there are creative and interesting ways to have a solid well-paying job while still nurturing your passions.

There tends to be the absurd dichotomy of "stereotypical high paying jobs vs starving artist type jobs" and it's pretty nonsensical.

Also, there's a really disproportionate focus on what kind of starting salary they can make right out of school, which is a pretty nonsense metric. Students often totally devalue humanities degrees because they don't directly lead to a well paying job, meanwhile, they disregard the enormous skills that humanities degrees confer, which could help with career progression along the way, and actually open a lot more doors down the road.

I think the best thing you can do is teach that the options available to them are nearly endless, but that all financial success comes at a cost of having to combine hard work with strategic choices.

Also, get them volunteering young, I volunteered with my dad my entire childhood and it taught me A LOT about what work is like, what kind of work I enjoyed, what roles I naturally gravitated towards when part of a team, etc.
That way they aren't making major career decisions with virtually zero comprehension of what work is like.

Genuine question here. I knew growing up that I was good at science and math...engineering was almost inevitable. I enjoy it although I would have enjoyed a lot of things. My wife had a similar path. Most people I interact with (myself included at times) have made fun of humanities degrees, especially unspecific humanities degrees. By this, I mean, when my wife graduated at a private college that worked out well for her to save money even over a public college because of her particular situation in a degree that conferred good earnings, many others graduated with bachelors in liberal arts or bachelors in philosophy or whatnot. They paid a crap ton of money for a private school for that...? In my very anecdotal experience, this has translated to very low paying jobs that are taken out of need for the people I know of that fit into this, or in other situations, they have moved on into something like running an organic farm where I would think they could have done it almost as well without the degree with a lot less costs. This does not include people that get, for instance, a masters in psychology to be a psychiatrist or something of that nature. As it stands now, if my kid didn't know what they wanted to do or if they wanted to get a bachelors in philosophy to get a degree or because they liked philosophy or whatever, I would in clear conscious actively discourage that. What is the benefit of a general humanities degree like this? I wouldn't look at education totally from cost benefit standpoint, but do these humanities degrees really give you something that makes up for the costs? Do they open doors/give you some sort of insight that you wouldn't have had without it that can justify the costs?

I have a psychology BS, my husband does as well.  He is a professor of neuroscience, I work at a vaccine company.  We both went on to advance degrees (I have a Master's, he has a PhD).  I have been able to get jobs over biology/chemistry degreed people because of my psych degree as there is an expectation that I am better at writing than a Master's in chemistry/biology. 

[BlueHouse]

My cousin was a mustachian before the word existed. 
My mom called him a beach bum.  Everyone I knew shook their heads whenever speaking about "Bobby" because he had so much potential and threw it all away. 

It's only in the past few years that I realize that he won and the rest of us lost.  We're all living up to our potential and we're pretty miserable in our working lives.  And we're workaholics, because, you know, the ethos. 

[LiveLean]

Two boys, 16 and 13.

We talk to them a lot about what people do, whether it's their doctors, dentists, orthodontists, friends parents, coaches, teachers, etc.

They're big sports fans and while they won't be pro athletes, we talk to them a lot about all of the other ancillary jobs in sports. A generation ago, the only people to become general managers, college athletic directors, and coaches were ex-players and ex-coaches. That's no longer the case. If they want those gigs, they can pursue them.

We talk a lot about finances and the cost of cars. Lately we've talked about how everyone from Kia and Hyundai to Maserati and Jaguar make a crossover vehicle and they all look pretty much the same except for the logos. Ditto for sedans.

All of which boils down to two things:

1. You can make most anything a lucrative career.
2. If you don't control your lifestyle, it won't matter how lucrative that career is if you outspend it. Plus some of those lucrative careers will leave you with no time. Time is the more important asset.

[Aelias]

Story time.

I have a friend whose parents "nudged" (or maybe a little more than nudged) him into going to college and getting an engineering degree. I'm sure they thought they were acting in his best interest -- he probably demonstrated some math and science aptitude, and they wanted him to have a secure job and a comfortable life. He did it, he graduated it, he got an engineering job.  He figured out pretty quickly that he didn't like it.  He took time off to pursue teaching, which also didn't take and did engineering side jobs for a while.  Eventually, he decided he'd pursue watch making and repair.  Not an obvious choice as a lucrative career, but he was interested in it, and found a local place that would teach you to do it in a couple years with summers off for apprentice experiences.

He graduated recently and is now starting up his own business.  Hard to say whether he'll be successful monetarily, but I think he's got as good a shot as anyone, and he's now got a skill in an area he actually enjoys. 

Had he not been pushed into engineering, he might have found his way to a profession he was really committed to 10 years ago.  I suspect there still would have farting around and dead ends, but everyone has those.   

And, on a not unrelated note, he doesn't have a great relationship with his parents at this point.

All of this is to say, even for those that FIRE, a working life probably lasts at least a decade or two. That's too long for any reasonable adult to plow ahead in something they don't like just because their parents pushed them toward it. Sooner or later, they're going to say, "Screw this!" and do their own thing.  So you may as well let them do their own thing in the first instance. If you've taught them general life lessons about planning, cost-benefit analysis, and living below their means, they'll figure out a way to get by.  And they'll still want to talk to you because you didn't attempt to manipulate them into wasting precious years of their life on something they didn't want.

[Hirondelle]

I have a few questions about this.

You seem to look at jobs from a high paying vs low paying perspective. But what about the big group in the middle? What is 'good enough'? If your kid tells you he wants to study history (= broke humanities) to become a HS history teacher (= a very decent job IMO) is that lucrative enough?

Also the college vs no college question. College in the USA is insanely expensive and there's quite a few lucrative paths that don't require it. If you add in the cost savings + 5y of compound interest on both the early earnings and the college fund, that would cancel out a lot of extra earnings from many degrees. Now I'm not arguing that degrees aren't valuable in other ways, but if you'd look from a purely financial standpoint many degrees probably don't make sense at all if you look at a FIRE timeline of 10y of work, that would be more like 15y of work with a college fund as a base and working years instead of college years. All depending on the lifestyle preferences of the child ofcourse.

Lucrative careers from different perspectives; you'd be happy to pay for college. But what if your child says he wants to be a landlord and asks you to use his college fund for a downpayment(s) on rental properties, is that ok? Or a solid business idea that needs some startup capital?

[Hula Hoop]

Hirondelle - I agree.  Both my husband and I have degrees in the humanities and we both have decent careers.  Neither of us went to expensive colleges or went into tons of debt though.

[Metalcat]

Instead of nudging them towards particular types of careers, just educate them about finance, and what makes a career more lucrative, and the trade offs they'll need to make for higher incomes.

I have a classic "high income" career that A LOT of parents try to push their kids towards, and I'm the first one to caution them against that.

I think it's more important to educate them on how to identify what they love and that what they love in terms of work can be found in a variety of industries, that there are creative and interesting ways to have a solid well-paying job while still nurturing your passions.

There tends to be the absurd dichotomy of "stereotypical high paying jobs vs starving artist type jobs" and it's pretty nonsensical.

Also, there's a really disproportionate focus on what kind of starting salary they can make right out of school, which is a pretty nonsense metric. Students often totally devalue humanities degrees because they don't directly lead to a well paying job, meanwhile, they disregard the enormous skills that humanities degrees confer, which could help with career progression along the way, and actually open a lot more doors down the road.

I think the best thing you can do is teach that the options available to them are nearly endless, but that all financial success comes at a cost of having to combine hard work with strategic choices.

Also, get them volunteering young, I volunteered with my dad my entire childhood and it taught me A LOT about what work is like, what kind of work I enjoyed, what roles I naturally gravitated towards when part of a team, etc.
That way they aren't making major career decisions with virtually zero comprehension of what work is like.

Genuine question here. I knew growing up that I was good at science and math...engineering was almost inevitable. I enjoy it although I would have enjoyed a lot of things. My wife had a similar path. Most people I interact with (myself included at times) have made fun of humanities degrees, especially unspecific humanities degrees. By this, I mean, when my wife graduated at a private college that worked out well for her to save money even over a public college because of her particular situation in a degree that conferred good earnings, many others graduated with bachelors in liberal arts or bachelors in philosophy or whatnot. They paid a crap ton of money for a private school for that...? In my very anecdotal experience, this has translated to very low paying jobs that are taken out of need for the people I know of that fit into this, or in other situations, they have moved on into something like running an organic farm where I would think they could have done it almost as well without the degree with a lot less costs. This does not include people that get, for instance, a masters in psychology to be a psychiatrist or something of that nature. As it stands now, if my kid didn't know what they wanted to do or if they wanted to get a bachelors in philosophy to get a degree or because they liked philosophy or whatever, I would in clear conscious actively discourage that. What is the benefit of a general humanities degree like this? I wouldn't look at education totally from cost benefit standpoint, but do these humanities degrees really give you something that makes up for the costs? Do they open doors/give you some sort of insight that you wouldn't have had without it that can justify the costs?

Well...

Yes, people who don't put in the work to build solid careers won't end up with solid careers, but that's the same for pretty much all disciplines.

And yes, someone who wastes an entire degree not actually taking advantage of all of the research and networking opportunities available to them is silly, especially if they went to an expensive school.

In those cases, I think that their parents and society failed to teach them the purpose of education and how much work they will have to do in addition to their basic studies in order to succeed.

I have a psych and linguistics degree and I had multiple lucrative job offers on the table by the time I graduated. Why? Because I did an enormous amount of volunteer work, extra research projects, and treated every single professor as a networking opportunity.

I was at the career counselor within one week of starting school.

Why? Because my mom ran a staffing agency that I had worked at and I saw first hand how degrees don't equal jobs.

If your kid absolutely loves philosophy, then I wouldn't discourage them, I would sit down and have a strategy session on what kind of doors a philosophy degree might help open and which ones it won't.

The hardest thing for kids to realize is that for most degrees, there are no specific jobs in those disciplines unless they become a PhD level expert, and even with a PhD, those jobs are hard to get.

So it's critical to better understand what kind of work most jobs actually involve, what kind of employers are out there, what skills will help get them promoted, etc, etc.

DH studied philosophy and the abstract thinking and analytical skills he learned are invaluable for his role as a policy advisor for the government. Because he is a general policy advisor, he can work on ant subject matter he wants, he has no doors closed to him. His sister is a lawyer for the government and she can only do law jobs, most doors are closed.

For most people, university doesn't teach any particular job skill. It's main benefit is teaching you how to think in a disciplined and organized fashion, and to just be a generally more informed person.

So yeah, I'm not surprised that a lot of people with humanities degrees never learned the actual purpose of their education, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have enormous value.

[DadJokes]

I have a few questions about this.

You seem to look at jobs from a high paying vs low paying perspective. But what about the big group in the middle? What is 'good enough'? If your kid tells you he wants to study history (= broke humanities) to become a HS history teacher (= a very decent job IMO) is that lucrative enough?

Also the college vs no college question. College in the USA is insanely expensive and there's quite a few lucrative paths that don't require it. If you add in the cost savings + 5y of compound interest on both the early earnings and the college fund, that would cancel out a lot of extra earnings from many degrees. Now I'm not arguing that degrees aren't valuable in other ways, but if you'd look from a purely financial standpoint many degrees probably don't make sense at all if you look at a FIRE timeline of 10y of work, that would be more like 15y of work with a college fund as a base and working years instead of college years. All depending on the lifestyle preferences of the child ofcourse.

Lucrative careers from different perspectives; you'd be happy to pay for college. But what if your child says he wants to be a landlord and asks you to use his college fund for a downpayment(s) on rental properties, is that ok? Or a solid business idea that needs some startup capital?

I think my teacher wife would happily encourage our child not to be a teacher.

I would be thrilled if he chose to forego college to pursue a trade or start his own business. All I want is for him to have a plan, rather than go to school and spend tens of thousands with no end result in mind.

[Pigeon]

My engineer father very much tried to push us all into engineering.  As each of his six kids went off to college, he got pushier about it.  I leaned toward science and at one point he threatened not to pay for college unless I became an engineer, but he didn't go through with it.  He  didn't get any engineers, and it was counter-productive on his part to push so hard.

On the other hand, I work at a university and it's not uncommon to have discussions with seniors or grad students who bemoan that nobody ever told them that a degree in sociology isn't a first class ticket to a lucrative career, while all their accounting major friends are getting good job offers.

What I did with my kids was make them think about what they wanted to do in life, what kind of lifestyle they want and what kind of working environment is important.  Then I made them sit down with the Occupational Outlook Handbook and a few other good sources and make a plan, so if they wanted to major in X, here's what they would do with it.  Or if they wanted to be Y, here's how they'd accomplish that.  They'd know how much your average Y makes, what the employment outlook is likely to be and what working conditions are generally like.

We all understood that plans change and nothing is carved in stone.  The average person these days changes careers a number of time.  I think this is a compromise between trying to force kids into fields that don't fit just for the money and having kids who are thoughtful about picking a field of study.

[BlueHouse]

...
Sooner or later, they're going to say, "Screw this!" and do their own thing. 

This is an option?  I'm 50 and haven't said "screw this" yet!  I need to have a plan and my plan is to work.   

In my experience, I went to college to get a diploma.  I didn't know what I wanted "to be".  I just wanted to have a decent job and in my day, having a diploma pretty much guaranteed that you'd be put on a path to get a decent job.  Finding a job that you like and want and offers some degree of fulfillment is up to you and requires research and networking.  But have I found what I want to do with my life?  Not at work. 

If a kid has a strong desire to follow a particular career path, I would absolutely support that whether it's a typically lucrative path or not because that kind of passion can lead to good income.  But if there is no specific dream job, then I'd push them into something generic, like business that they can turn into just about anything until they find a passion. 

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

Instead of nudging them towards particular types of careers, just educate them about finance, and what makes a career more lucrative, and the trade offs they'll need to make for higher incomes.

I have a classic "high income" career that A LOT of parents try to push their kids towards, and I'm the first one to caution them against that.

I think it's more important to educate them on how to identify what they love and that what they love in terms of work can be found in a variety of industries, that there are creative and interesting ways to have a solid well-paying job while still nurturing your passions.

There tends to be the absurd dichotomy of "stereotypical high paying jobs vs starving artist type jobs" and it's pretty nonsensical.

Also, there's a really disproportionate focus on what kind of starting salary they can make right out of school, which is a pretty nonsense metric. Students often totally devalue humanities degrees because they don't directly lead to a well paying job, meanwhile, they disregard the enormous skills that humanities degrees confer, which could help with career progression along the way, and actually open a lot more doors down the road.

I think the best thing you can do is teach that the options available to them are nearly endless, but that all financial success comes at a cost of having to combine hard work with strategic choices.

Also, get them volunteering young, I volunteered with my dad my entire childhood and it taught me A LOT about what work is like, what kind of work I enjoyed, what roles I naturally gravitated towards when part of a team, etc.
That way they aren't making major career decisions with virtually zero comprehension of what work is like.

Genuine question here. I knew growing up that I was good at science and math...engineering was almost inevitable. I enjoy it although I would have enjoyed a lot of things. My wife had a similar path. Most people I interact with (myself included at times) have made fun of humanities degrees, especially unspecific humanities degrees. By this, I mean, when my wife graduated at a private college that worked out well for her to save money even over a public college because of her particular situation in a degree that conferred good earnings, many others graduated with bachelors in liberal arts or bachelors in philosophy or whatnot. They paid a crap ton of money for a private school for that...? In my very anecdotal experience, this has translated to very low paying jobs that are taken out of need for the people I know of that fit into this, or in other situations, they have moved on into something like running an organic farm where I would think they could have done it almost as well without the degree with a lot less costs. This does not include people that get, for instance, a masters in psychology to be a psychiatrist or something of that nature. As it stands now, if my kid didn't know what they wanted to do or if they wanted to get a bachelors in philosophy to get a degree or because they liked philosophy or whatever, I would in clear conscious actively discourage that. What is the benefit of a general humanities degree like this? I wouldn't look at education totally from cost benefit standpoint, but do these humanities degrees really give you something that makes up for the costs? Do they open doors/give you some sort of insight that you wouldn't have had without it that can justify the costs?

I have a psychology BS, my husband does as well.  He is a professor of neuroscience, I work at a vaccine company.  We both went on to advance degrees (I have a Master's, he has a PhD).  I have been able to get jobs over biology/chemistry degreed people because of my psych degree as there is an expectation that I am better at writing than a Master's in chemistry/biology.

Interesting. Thank you for the specific examples. In you and your husband's cases, advanced degrees appear to have played a role in your careers. Would you say that that is more typical of humanities? From the outside looking in, that seems to be the case.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

Instead of nudging them towards particular types of careers, just educate them about finance, and what makes a career more lucrative, and the trade offs they'll need to make for higher incomes.

I have a classic "high income" career that A LOT of parents try to push their kids towards, and I'm the first one to caution them against that.

I think it's more important to educate them on how to identify what they love and that what they love in terms of work can be found in a variety of industries, that there are creative and interesting ways to have a solid well-paying job while still nurturing your passions.

There tends to be the absurd dichotomy of "stereotypical high paying jobs vs starving artist type jobs" and it's pretty nonsensical.

Also, there's a really disproportionate focus on what kind of starting salary they can make right out of school, which is a pretty nonsense metric. Students often totally devalue humanities degrees because they don't directly lead to a well paying job, meanwhile, they disregard the enormous skills that humanities degrees confer, which could help with career progression along the way, and actually open a lot more doors down the road.

I think the best thing you can do is teach that the options available to them are nearly endless, but that all financial success comes at a cost of having to combine hard work with strategic choices.

Also, get them volunteering young, I volunteered with my dad my entire childhood and it taught me A LOT about what work is like, what kind of work I enjoyed, what roles I naturally gravitated towards when part of a team, etc.
That way they aren't making major career decisions with virtually zero comprehension of what work is like.

Genuine question here. I knew growing up that I was good at science and math...engineering was almost inevitable. I enjoy it although I would have enjoyed a lot of things. My wife had a similar path. Most people I interact with (myself included at times) have made fun of humanities degrees, especially unspecific humanities degrees. By this, I mean, when my wife graduated at a private college that worked out well for her to save money even over a public college because of her particular situation in a degree that conferred good earnings, many others graduated with bachelors in liberal arts or bachelors in philosophy or whatnot. They paid a crap ton of money for a private school for that...? In my very anecdotal experience, this has translated to very low paying jobs that are taken out of need for the people I know of that fit into this, or in other situations, they have moved on into something like running an organic farm where I would think they could have done it almost as well without the degree with a lot less costs. This does not include people that get, for instance, a masters in psychology to be a psychiatrist or something of that nature. As it stands now, if my kid didn't know what they wanted to do or if they wanted to get a bachelors in philosophy to get a degree or because they liked philosophy or whatever, I would in clear conscious actively discourage that. What is the benefit of a general humanities degree like this? I wouldn't look at education totally from cost benefit standpoint, but do these humanities degrees really give you something that makes up for the costs? Do they open doors/give you some sort of insight that you wouldn't have had without it that can justify the costs?

Well...

Yes, people who don't put in the work to build solid careers won't end up with solid careers, but that's the same for pretty much all disciplines.

And yes, someone who wastes an entire degree not actually taking advantage of all of the research and networking opportunities available to them is silly, especially if they went to an expensive school.

In those cases, I think that their parents and society failed to teach them the purpose of education and how much work they will have to do in addition to their basic studies in order to succeed.

I have a psych and linguistics degree and I had multiple lucrative job offers on the table by the time I graduated. Why? Because I did an enormous amount of volunteer work, extra research projects, and treated every single professor as a networking opportunity.

I was at the career counselor within one week of starting school.

Why? Because my mom ran a staffing agency that I had worked at and I saw first hand how degrees don't equal jobs.

If your kid absolutely loves philosophy, then I wouldn't discourage them, I would sit down and have a strategy session on what kind of doors a philosophy degree might help open and which ones it won't.

The hardest thing for kids to realize is that for most degrees, there are no specific jobs in those disciplines unless they become a PhD level expert, and even with a PhD, those jobs are hard to get.

So it's critical to better understand what kind of work most jobs actually involve, what kind of employers are out there, what skills will help get them promoted, etc, etc.

DH studied philosophy and the abstract thinking and analytical skills he learned are invaluable for his role as a policy advisor for the government. Because he is a general policy advisor, he can work on ant subject matter he wants, he has no doors closed to him. His sister is a lawyer for the government and she can only do law jobs, most doors are closed.

For most people, university doesn't teach any particular job skill. It's main benefit is teaching you how to think in a disciplined and organized fashion, and to just be a generally more informed person.

So yeah, I'm not surprised that a lot of people with humanities degrees never learned the actual purpose of their education, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have enormous value.

That makes a lot of sense. A large part of the stigma from my perspective is that people who are the stereotypical "want to find themselves" in college in terms of careers (not wanting to learn new perspectives on life or whatnot) seem to gravitate towards the humanities instead of, say, engineering. That would be what I would actively discourage, and it seems from your feedback that you wouldn't be a big fan of that either. If my children seemed inclined to go into a more "unspecified" humanities like philosophy or something as compared to, say, history to be a history teacher, what would be the best way to go about looking for how that could apply to jobs. It's a new concept for me because I kind of started with the end in mind on my career. I could see that not being the case in my hypothetical situation - i.e. where I would need to do the nudging towards solidifying what they actually wanted to do with their degree.

[Metalcat]

That makes a lot of sense. A large part of the stigma from my perspective is that people who are the stereotypical "want to find themselves" in college in terms of careers (not wanting to learn new perspectives on life or whatnot) seem to gravitate towards the humanities instead of, say, engineering. That would be what I would actively discourage, and it seems from your feedback that you wouldn't be a big fan of that either. If my children seemed inclined to go into a more "unspecified" humanities like philosophy or something as compared to, say, history to be a history teacher, what would be the best way to go about looking for how that could apply to jobs. It's a new concept for me because I kind of started with the end in mind on my career. I could see that not being the case in my hypothetical situation - i.e. where I would need to do the nudging towards solidifying what they actually wanted to do with their degree.

That's not exactly what I'm saying.

What I'm trying to say is that kids need to be taught that no matter what education they pursue, that they need to put in a lot more work than just getting a degree.

If a kid is industrious, creative, and good at networking, they're going to be successful no matter what they study and they will find a way to utilize their education for their long-term benefit.

It's spot on that the aimless kids tend to gravitate towards less defined humanities degrees. However, it's a huge disservice to generalize anything about those degrees because of that.

History isn't fundamentally more useful than philosophy, and I encourage you to let go of this notion of any degree being more or less useful than any other. It all depends on what the person does with it.

If a kid comes out of university with only the education they went in for, then they have completely and utterly failed to maximize the opportunities that school provides.

I work with A LOT of medical professionals, who are the stereotype of getting a degree that leads to a high paying job, and even they suffer if they don't learn proper networking and general career skills.

The best thing you can do is not try and program your kids that certain degrees have value and others don't. It's to educate them as to how the working world functions, which jobs require what education and why. There are many many many jobs out there that require a university degree, but that don't care what degree you have...why??
What valuable skills does a degree actually confer?
Why do some careers require specific degrees?
Are careers that require specific degrees vulnerable to over saturation??? (The answer is yes btw)
What doors close if someone doesn't have a degree?

If you don't know all of the above answers and don't actually understand the broad world of employment yourself, then don't pretend to be an authority on it for your kids.
Teach your kid to turn to seek out expert knowledge before making decisions, talk to a career counselor, do research, etc, etc.

[Chris Pascale]

What is 'good enough'? If your kid tells you he wants to study history (= broke humanities) to become a HS history teacher (= a very decent job IMO) is that lucrative enough?

In my estate planning for if my wife and I die before the kids are grown, my executor is instructed to only pay for college in the event they have a career plan. I specifically say that studying history is off the table, but if they want to be a history teacher, then yes. Studying religion is a no-go, but if they want to be a chaplain, then ok. English? Not if it's just because you like to read.

So long as they have a plan of some sort, and some life experience to take with them, I think they'll be alright.

Life is too short, after all, not to do what you want to do. The estate planning also very clearly lays out that I don't care if they want to be a daycare worker, a lawyer, or a doctor, so long as they want to do something with the education they are taking tens of thousands of dollars to get.

[RFAAOATB]

What are some of the best nudges?  I’m gonna start with trying to put your kid in the school district where everyone is on the success track so that going to college is expected instead of the district they point to as a school to prison pipeline.

[BlueHouse]

I went to one of those schools where 99% of the kids went to college and yes, there was so much peer pressure from "where did you get in" that if you weren't going to college, you were just considered a loser.  anyone choosing a vocational track was really looked down on. 

I wasn't actively steered toward one direction or another, but I do wish I had had more understanding of what kinds of careers existed.  There were so many options that I didn't even know you could go to school to learn about.  If there's some program to help your kids understand what is available and how you pursue it, I think that would be very worthwhile.  Then you can talk about whether or not jobs are plentiful.

[Metalcat]

I went to one of those schools where 99% of the kids went to college and yes, there was so much peer pressure from "where did you get in" that if you weren't going to college, you were just considered a loser.  anyone choosing a vocational track was really looked down on. 

I wasn't actively steered toward one direction or another, but I do wish I had had more understanding of what kinds of careers existed.  There were so many options that I didn't even know you could go to school to learn about.  If there's some program to help your kids understand what is available and how you pursue it, I think that would be very worthwhile.  Then you can talk about whether or not jobs are plentiful.

I went to one of those schools too, except it was assumed that you wouldn't just go to university, but it was a given that you would also do grad school, preferably med or law school.

Suffice to say, we had a lot of suicides among my classmates.

You're absolutely right, opening kids eyes to how incredibly vast the career landscape is can be very helpful. I find teens tend to be aware of an extremely limited range of careers, and those that they are aware of are mostly from television, which gives them a terribly inaccurate sense of what the working world is actually like.

In my opinion, the key things to determine are what roles the kid tends to enjoy most in a group setting: are they more of a leader, a researcher, consensus builder, or a worker.

Do they crave autonomy or do they thrive with unambiguous instruction?

Do they do well with multiple tasks and deadlines, or are they more of a linear-focus worker who does better giving work their undivided attention?

A lot of the medical professionals I work with lament that they didn't realize how much entrepreneurial work there is involved in running a small business, that they weren't prepared to be managers and deal with HR issues.
TV never showed them doctors and dentists having to order toilet paper for the clinic bathrooms.

We all have this sense of what work is like. What sucks about having a job and what doesn't suck. Those are the things kids need to know. They need to know that no career is easy and that all of them take ongoing work, discipline, and creativity in order to survive and thrive.

Teach them that nothing will ever be handed to them, no matter what degree they get, and then you will never have to worry about them aimlessly studying nothing for no reason.

I think putting pressure on them to know what career they want after university is unfair, but I do think it's smart to educate them as to just how enormous an investment their education is and how in the end, it's on *them* to ultimately make it worth while.

I had no idea what I wanted going in to university and I changed my major multiple times, and graduated with a humanities degree, but I spent every second there getting as much out of my schooling as humanly possible. To this day I preserve that network because of how valuable it was.

[robartsd]

What are some of the best nudges?  I’m gonna start with trying to put your kid in the school district where everyone is on the success track so that going to college is expected instead of the district they point to as a school to prison pipeline.

I'll blanket disagree with the school district where everyone is on the college track. This is the district with the high housing prices because everyone is an elitist who thinks that the school is the key to their kids education. MMM wrote about the Ivy Leauge preschool parents. Parent involvement has been shown to have a much higher impact, and the kids can do without the crazy pressures. Sure the networking opportunities at the elite universities are top notch and for some career paths extremely helpful; but the high school that led to the university, not so much. I think the district where many of the kids become apprentices to the tradespeople who serve the elitist neighborhoods would be a much better environment to expose kids to a variety of potential career paths. I agree with avoiding schools where student involvement in crime is a common issue.

[jpdx]

Teach them how to stay out of consumer debt, navigate education costs, live below their means, and invest their savings, but let them figure out what career brings them joy.

Ding ding ding! Now that's an answer worthy of the MMM Forum.

[Luz]

No way! Teach them how to stay out of consumer debt, navigate education costs, live below their means, and invest their savings, but let them figure out what career brings them joy.

My parents gave my siblings and I complete freedom. They were super firm with us behaviorally, but totally hands-off in terms of controlling our choices (as long as those choices didn't cross the line behaviorally). They gave us as much freedom as we could possibly handle from a very young age. And what a gift that was!

 I was totally unaware of the financial implications of my field compared to others when I set out on my path. But would that have changed anything? Nope! I LOVE what I do. Why would I get into a more lucrative career just so I can retire early, and then finally do what I want....when I can do what I want throughout my life (as long as I have reasonable financial freedom through staying out of consumer debt, living below my means, and investing my savings)? So, choosing a career that is fascinating and meaningful is so much more important than choosing one for a certain income-level, in my opinion. In fact, the latter sounds kind've soul-crushing.

I think that most parents feel reasonable when they're trying to nudge (rather than force) their kids in a direction they feel is in the kid's best interest. But it's still controlling. In fact, I think this generation of parents has a real problem with interfering in their kid's lives when it's not their place to do so. The coding class? Unless your kid is up late at night devouring tech books or says, "hey, that class looks cool", then no!

I got.a liberal arts degree. It was during those years of studying for a "useless" degree that I figured out what I wanted to do with my life. When I finished my degree, I went to graduate school to get the specific qualifications. You never know where your kid's paths might lead. And I so appreciate that my parents weren't constantly making covert suggestions about what I should do with my life whenever I called home. Because they would have been wrong.

Although I will say this: if your kids follow their interests, there is a chance (though I wouldn't say a greater chance) they may end up having a more modest lifestyle than the one they enjoy now. Nothing wrong with that! As long as they know how to live below their means, no matter what those means are. So part of the financial education could be about your particular lifestyle and the sort of income it takes to finance that, if they hope to maintain it. Just so they don't expect it as a given and take it for granted (which I would argue is important to teach them anyway).  The conversation would not, however, include what careers would be best for supporting that lifestyle/savings rate.

I don't understand that attitude.  Exposure to many different things is great for kids, so is trying things that may not seem interesting because they may realize they are interesting.

I suppose it depends on your philosophy as a parent. I prefer benign neglect, partly in response to how nuts parenting has become. It's now normal to direct and plan your kids' lives to a degree that would be unthinkable for parents only a generation or two ago.

So from that perspective, I don't totally agree that exposure to many different things is great for kids (if that exposure is mainly through structured extracurricular activities that are supervised by adults). Not that the activity itself is necessarily negative, but just that it's replacing other pursuits (unstructured play without adult involvement) that allow kids to develop things like creativity, grit, negotiation, and a sense of control over their own world that they won't necessarily get if they're signed up for ALL the extracurriculars. If I had to choose one over the other, I'd rather my daughter develop her grit and creativity than her coding skills. 

My approach would be for my kid to pick one activity (or none) from a handful of options that work with our family's budget and schedule each season. And trust that she will discover her interests in time (and her version of success in adult life), without any nudging from me.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

That makes a lot of sense. A large part of the stigma from my perspective is that people who are the stereotypical "want to find themselves" in college in terms of careers (not wanting to learn new perspectives on life or whatnot) seem to gravitate towards the humanities instead of, say, engineering. That would be what I would actively discourage, and it seems from your feedback that you wouldn't be a big fan of that either. If my children seemed inclined to go into a more "unspecified" humanities like philosophy or something as compared to, say, history to be a history teacher, what would be the best way to go about looking for how that could apply to jobs. It's a new concept for me because I kind of started with the end in mind on my career. I could see that not being the case in my hypothetical situation - i.e. where I would need to do the nudging towards solidifying what they actually wanted to do with their degree.

That's not exactly what I'm saying.

What I'm trying to say is that kids need to be taught that no matter what education they pursue, that they need to put in a lot more work than just getting a degree.

If a kid is industrious, creative, and good at networking, they're going to be successful no matter what they study and they will find a way to utilize their education for their long-term benefit.

It's spot on that the aimless kids tend to gravitate towards less defined humanities degrees. However, it's a huge disservice to generalize anything about those degrees because of that.

History isn't fundamentally more useful than philosophy, and I encourage you to let go of this notion of any degree being more or less useful than any other. It all depends on what the person does with it.

If a kid comes out of university with only the education they went in for, then they have completely and utterly failed to maximize the opportunities that school provides.

I work with A LOT of medical professionals, who are the stereotype of getting a degree that leads to a high paying job, and even they suffer if they don't learn proper networking and general career skills.

The best thing you can do is not try and program your kids that certain degrees have value and others don't. It's to educate them as to how the working world functions, which jobs require what education and why. There are many many many jobs out there that require a university degree, but that don't care what degree you have...why??
What valuable skills does a degree actually confer?
Why do some careers require specific degrees?
Are careers that require specific degrees vulnerable to over saturation??? (The answer is yes btw)
What doors close if someone doesn't have a degree?

If you don't know all of the above answers and don't actually understand the broad world of employment yourself, then don't pretend to be an authority on it for your kids.
Teach your kid to turn to seek out expert knowledge before making decisions, talk to a career counselor, do research, etc, etc.

Thanks for the explanation. I will keep it in mind for my kids. I went into engineering knowing I liked it pretty well and that it would probably be a good paying job. I left school into a pretty good job market and immediately got a job that has lead to a pretty good career. I do not want to assume that my kids will be just like me, though, because it worked out well for me.

[Metalcat]

That makes a lot of sense. A large part of the stigma from my perspective is that people who are the stereotypical "want to find themselves" in college in terms of careers (not wanting to learn new perspectives on life or whatnot) seem to gravitate towards the humanities instead of, say, engineering. That would be what I would actively discourage, and it seems from your feedback that you wouldn't be a big fan of that either. If my children seemed inclined to go into a more "unspecified" humanities like philosophy or something as compared to, say, history to be a history teacher, what would be the best way to go about looking for how that could apply to jobs. It's a new concept for me because I kind of started with the end in mind on my career. I could see that not being the case in my hypothetical situation - i.e. where I would need to do the nudging towards solidifying what they actually wanted to do with their degree.

That's not exactly what I'm saying.

What I'm trying to say is that kids need to be taught that no matter what education they pursue, that they need to put in a lot more work than just getting a degree.

If a kid is industrious, creative, and good at networking, they're going to be successful no matter what they study and they will find a way to utilize their education for their long-term benefit.

It's spot on that the aimless kids tend to gravitate towards less defined humanities degrees. However, it's a huge disservice to generalize anything about those degrees because of that.

History isn't fundamentally more useful than philosophy, and I encourage you to let go of this notion of any degree being more or less useful than any other. It all depends on what the person does with it.

If a kid comes out of university with only the education they went in for, then they have completely and utterly failed to maximize the opportunities that school provides.

I work with A LOT of medical professionals, who are the stereotype of getting a degree that leads to a high paying job, and even they suffer if they don't learn proper networking and general career skills.

The best thing you can do is not try and program your kids that certain degrees have value and others don't. It's to educate them as to how the working world functions, which jobs require what education and why. There are many many many jobs out there that require a university degree, but that don't care what degree you have...why??
What valuable skills does a degree actually confer?
Why do some careers require specific degrees?
Are careers that require specific degrees vulnerable to over saturation??? (The answer is yes btw)
What doors close if someone doesn't have a degree?

If you don't know all of the above answers and don't actually understand the broad world of employment yourself, then don't pretend to be an authority on it for your kids.
Teach your kid to turn to seek out expert knowledge before making decisions, talk to a career counselor, do research, etc, etc.

Thanks for the explanation. I will keep it in mind for my kids. I went into engineering knowing I liked it pretty well and that it would probably be a good paying job. I left school into a pretty good job market and immediately got a job that has lead to a pretty good career. I do not want to assume that my kids will be just like me, though, because it worked out well for me.

Please don't take this as a criticism, because it isn't, but if your personal experience is the extent of your knowledge of how education and career trajectory are connected, then you are not particularly well equipped to provide your children with meaningful guidance with respect to their professional futures.

Even if they wanted to follow the exact path that you did, the world is changing so rapidly that "go to school for engineering and then get a good job and have a good career for a few decades" probably won't even be an option for them by the time they're trying to forge their own careers.

I field a lot of bad career advice given by well meaning parents in my work with medical professionals and it can be downright heartbreaking, especially AFTER they've spent hundreds of thousands and a decade of their life pursuing a career based on outdated perceptions of their parents, which is often frankly BAD information.
Meanwhile, I see tons of industrious, smart kids making major successes of themselves in all ranges of industries because they're...well...industrious and smart.

If you want your kids to be equipped with the best information, then give them the best and most up to date information. Either learn yourself or bring in the expertise of a professional, but don't feed them generalizations based on a very limited set of data from a decades old source.

Lastly, I want to share a little from a personal perspective what benefit my liberal arts background has done for my career.
In this increasingly multicultural and global economy, my courses in anthropology, history, religion, psychology, philosophy, psychology and linguistics has helped me immensely with respect to communication, management, and client relations, which has opened A LOT of doors for me.

I've seen careers live and die on matters of cultural awareness. I've seen a major client won over by someone having a knowledge of traditional cooking from their home region, and I've seen a career utterly crushed by someone being ignorant about middle east history and working for a new Persian boss.
Now, you don't *need* a liberal arts degree to be well informed, but shiiiit, it sure does make it a lot easier.

The point is that there is real and tangible career value to broader humanities studies, even if it just makes someone more well rounded and generally knowledgeable. That stuff matters. Well rounded, knowledgeable people aren't born that way, they need to learn it somewhere, and some learn it in university.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

That makes a lot of sense. A large part of the stigma from my perspective is that people who are the stereotypical "want to find themselves" in college in terms of careers (not wanting to learn new perspectives on life or whatnot) seem to gravitate towards the humanities instead of, say, engineering. That would be what I would actively discourage, and it seems from your feedback that you wouldn't be a big fan of that either. If my children seemed inclined to go into a more "unspecified" humanities like philosophy or something as compared to, say, history to be a history teacher, what would be the best way to go about looking for how that could apply to jobs. It's a new concept for me because I kind of started with the end in mind on my career. I could see that not being the case in my hypothetical situation - i.e. where I would need to do the nudging towards solidifying what they actually wanted to do with their degree.

That's not exactly what I'm saying.

What I'm trying to say is that kids need to be taught that no matter what education they pursue, that they need to put in a lot more work than just getting a degree.

If a kid is industrious, creative, and good at networking, they're going to be successful no matter what they study and they will find a way to utilize their education for their long-term benefit.

It's spot on that the aimless kids tend to gravitate towards less defined humanities degrees. However, it's a huge disservice to generalize anything about those degrees because of that.

History isn't fundamentally more useful than philosophy, and I encourage you to let go of this notion of any degree being more or less useful than any other. It all depends on what the person does with it.

If a kid comes out of university with only the education they went in for, then they have completely and utterly failed to maximize the opportunities that school provides.

I work with A LOT of medical professionals, who are the stereotype of getting a degree that leads to a high paying job, and even they suffer if they don't learn proper networking and general career skills.

The best thing you can do is not try and program your kids that certain degrees have value and others don't. It's to educate them as to how the working world functions, which jobs require what education and why. There are many many many jobs out there that require a university degree, but that don't care what degree you have...why??
What valuable skills does a degree actually confer?
Why do some careers require specific degrees?
Are careers that require specific degrees vulnerable to over saturation??? (The answer is yes btw)
What doors close if someone doesn't have a degree?

If you don't know all of the above answers and don't actually understand the broad world of employment yourself, then don't pretend to be an authority on it for your kids.
Teach your kid to turn to seek out expert knowledge before making decisions, talk to a career counselor, do research, etc, etc.

Thanks for the explanation. I will keep it in mind for my kids. I went into engineering knowing I liked it pretty well and that it would probably be a good paying job. I left school into a pretty good job market and immediately got a job that has lead to a pretty good career. I do not want to assume that my kids will be just like me, though, because it worked out well for me.

Please don't take this as a criticism, because it isn't, but if your personal experience is the extent of your knowledge of how education and career trajectory are connected, then you are not particularly well equipped to provide your children with meaningful guidance with respect to their professional futures.

Even if they wanted to follow the exact path that you did, the world is changing so rapidly that "go to school for engineering and then get a good job and have a good career for a few decades" probably won't even be an option for them by the time they're trying to forge their own careers.

I field a lot of bad career advice given by well meaning parents in my work with medical professionals and it can be downright heartbreaking, especially AFTER they've spent hundreds of thousands and a decade of their life pursuing a career based on outdated perceptions of their parents, which is often frankly BAD information.
Meanwhile, I see tons of industrious, smart kids making major successes of themselves in all ranges of industries because they're...well...industrious and smart.

If you want your kids to be equipped with the best information, then give them the best and most up to date information. Either learn yourself or bring in the expertise of a professional, but don't feed them generalizations based on a very limited set of data from a decades old source.

Lastly, I want to share a little from a personal perspective what benefit my liberal arts background has done for my career.
In this increasingly multicultural and global economy, my courses in anthropology, history, religion, psychology, philosophy, psychology and linguistics has helped me immensely with respect to communication, management, and client relations, which has opened A LOT of doors for me.

I've seen careers live and die on matters of cultural awareness. I've seen a major client won over by someone having a knowledge of traditional cooking from their home region, and I've seen a career utterly crushed by someone being ignorant about middle east history and working for a new Persian boss.
Now, you don't *need* a liberal arts degree to be well informed, but shiiiit, it sure does make it a lot easier.

The point is that there is real and tangible career value to broader humanities studies, even if it just makes someone more well rounded and generally knowledgeable. That stuff matters. Well rounded, knowledgeable people aren't born that way, they need to learn it somewhere, and some learn it in university.

Again, thanks for the feedback. You clearly have more experience in this than I do. I feel like I was probably selling myself a little short by not elaborating, but you are right in that there are definitely holes in my knowledge. I guess my summary of everything is this. I have many friends and family that have what I would call careers (as opposed to hopping from floor level manufacturing job to fast food to retail etc.). There is diversity in their occupations, and I have talked to them enough to know things about their schooling, how they paid for college, their ensuing jobs, etc. However, they are all without fail straight to career paths or something wildly divergent from their college studies (computer programming to retail management, for example). The main group of straight to career paths are teachers, nurses, pharmacists, engineers, computer programmers, farmers, landscapers, pastors, etc. etc. I know at least a little bit about quite a few different careers, but they all without fail said, I want to be a math teacher, let's go to school for teaching math, graduate, then get a career in that. It seems to work pretty well. I have almost no experience in someone saying, I am interested in sociology but don't really want to teach at a university, just use it to do something.....that part is where I know I will need help.