Author Topic: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?  (Read 19654 times)

redwagon

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2019, 09:09:08 AM »
I think that each parenting experience is unique and very difficult to predict how it will actually be until you are living it but I think is a terrific idea to ask all of these questions beforehand!!!
I can relate to many of the notes above but wanted to add in to consider how much support you will have either from family or friends. We have always been fiercely independent couple but having kids makes you have to surrender at times and accept the help of others (whether due to illness, exhaustion, or just needing a break!) We have never lived close to relatives and for a while did not understand how our friends were managing to find downtime away from kids- but they had nearby grandparents that were constantly being used as sitters!!!!! Honestly, I had never considered how important that could be! We still don't get as many breaks as we should but we do sometimes trade off kids with close friends to allow everybody to take a little break- is important!!
We have taken our kids all over the world and has been wonderful but not going to sugar coat- kids are hard work and as noted above they are constantly changing so just when you think you have things on an even keel it all gets thrown out the window!!!

roomtempmayo

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2019, 09:55:37 AM »
@Mr. Green You've heard from a lot of people who chose to be parents.  I'll provide a little perspective from someone child-free.

In our late 20s, my wife and I were on the fence about having kids.  But watching all of our friends have kids pushed us off the fence.

I think all of our friends are great parents.  The observation I'd have is that the friends who most radically changed their lives to serve what they perceived to be the interests of their kids (or simply the social expectations of upper middle class childrearing) have been made (at least to appear) pretty unhappy and exhausted by the experience.  The ones who minimized the changes to their lives - NOT moving to the "good" school district, continuing to have both spouses work, and hiring out much of the household labor - ended up most happy.  To an outsider, there seems to be something of an inverse correlation between the percentage of the parenting work and/or accommodation they do and enjoying having a child.

There's a notable exception though, and that's that everyone I know who has adopted has without exception been made a better and more joyful person by the experience.  Maybe it's because the hormones and idealism are taken out of it.  Maybe it's because with slightly older kids the "drawing straws" nature of it that @Malkynn mentioned is minimized.  I'm not sure, but in my world of observations adoption seems like a great deal.

Someone may very well come along and say that these ^ observations are wrong, based on a limited and biased sample, and generally wrongheaded because everyone loves, loves, loves their children.  Fine.  These are just my anecdotal observations like all the others in this thread.  Perhaps there's something there that's useful.

Cassie

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2019, 10:56:00 AM »
My son is 46 and his wife is 41. They were just discussing how happy they are not to have kids as their friends are stressed out about money and time.   They on the other hand travel and do what they want. My sister also chose not to have kids and was never sorry. Actually the people I knew with no children have never been sorry. My 3 kids are grown but our lives did revolve around their needs and activities.  Money was tight for many years when they were young and many plans,etc were canceled when one got sick. I love them very much and am not sorry I had them but to think that your life won’t change a lot is wishful thinking.

Cassie

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2019, 10:58:31 AM »
A friend of mine says “One day I woke up and I had too much time, money and my body was in awesome shape.  I fixed all 3 problems by having kids:))”

Prairie Stash

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2019, 03:29:17 PM »
Semi retired with kids aged 3 and 6.

A lot changes with kids when you FIRE, a lot of anecdotes from parents no longer apply. As a benefit of FIRE, it eliminates money stress. It also frees up massive amounts of time, parenting is easier when its all you need to do.

As for the fussiness, my wife and I discussed it. Our first born was fussy and bed time use to take an hour (or more, we would put her down, she would cry and then we would repeat the cycle). One day (around 11 months) I convinced her to try the cry it out method, 4 days later our child was happier at bedtime and went to sleep in under 5 minutes. It turns out we conditioned the child to cry at bedtime, as parents we were the cause of a lot of the fuss. We taught the child that crying was appropriate, when we rectified it the child learned a new behaviour; falling asleep without crying. For us, a parenting style change reduced fussiness and decreased our stress. How many parents do you see change their style? How many anecdotes do you read where a child goes from fussy to good because the parents changed?

That lesson was applied to a lot of other times, often the source of the problem was us, not the child. I'm saying that as parents we improved with time and as a result, our child's needs became easier to accomplish and started taking a lot less time. Its shortsighted saying that children go through phases as if its solely up to the children to change, parents also grow.

Another example is daycare. We would take our child who was 1 at the time and the caregiver could handle 4 kids that age. Logically, how is this possible if all kids need 100% of your attention? How is a daycare provider better at parenting your kid than the actual parent? A lot of it is they have developed skills and techniques to keep things running smooth. Parenting is hard, it is a skill to be learned. I picked up a lot of tricks from the pros, it turns out that as you learn more about parenting, it gets easier. We were open to changing and adapting, it helped our situation.

Today our youngest is 3. We fed her breakfast, then she played toys. Then it was lunch for everyone, followed by outside play with friends. There should be bath time at some point this evening, typically an hour, with her sister. Story time and getting ready for bed is 30 minutes. Altogether, about three hours of intense time with some check ups throughout the day. She will sleep for 10-12 hours, we'll do our own thing after she goes to bed. Notice how I said "we", that's the perk of FIRE, it only takes 1 person to accomplish any of these tasks but there's two of us to do them.

SimpleCycle

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2019, 03:49:43 PM »
I haven't read the whole thread, but I want to address your central point - yes, there are different ways to parent.  Some parents tend toward higher intervention and others are lower intervention.  No one way is "right", but the idea that you can't be out of arm's reach of a toddler is not set in stone.

I have a friend who is a VERY intensive parent, and after a weekend with her and her kid I was seriously doubting if I wanted anything to do with parenting.  She barely talked to me the whole weekend, was constantly tending to the needs/desires/whims of her 2.5 year old.  But I now I have a 4 year old and a 2.5 year old at least in my perception, my spouse and I tend our kids much less than she does.  Which isn't to say they free range around the neighborhood, but they play independently (although this is highly kid dependent), get their own snacks within their own abilities, can wait at least a little bit for one of us to help them.  That said, our 4 year old is a "spirited" child and discipline is a 24/7 affair with her - making sure that the environment can support her making good choices, and being sure that we are consistent when she doesn't.  She was, in retrospect, a very fussy baby.  But I was so enamored with her every move it didn't really matter much to me.

I do really believe some of this is the attitude you bring to parenting.  For us parenting is a grand adventure, and we are excited to share our lives with our children.  So we travel, we keep the kids up late for special occasions, we go hiking and canoeing with kids in tow.  We do things to make life easier and more relaxed - the kids eat pb&j or cottage cheese and fruit for dinner more than I care to admit, we have used babysitters to make sure we have relationship time since the older one was 3 months old, and we have a cleaning person.  We have changed our lives a ton (goodbye sleeping in!) and also not changed them a in important ways (our values are still the same, how we live them out varies some).

And like someone else said, no developmental phase lasts too long with kids, so good or bad, it will be different soon.  The days are long but the years are short.  Reminding myself of that gets me through a lot of the tough parts of parenting.

Mr. Green

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2019, 08:00:36 AM »
There is some really good information here to consider. In my gut, I questioned if toddler parenting (hovering) had to be the way we are seeing it modeled. We still want a kid, and adoption is not out of the question for us. We've waited this long, so I think we're going to wait just a tiny bit longer so that we can take another cross-country journey this coming Spring. How we travel, constantly moving around, isn't really the most conducive to having an infant/early toddler. And in the event that the ACA is struck down here shortly the golden era for multi-state, long term travel with no employment may well come to an end. If something happens where we are unable to take a trip like this again (having a special needs child, physically aging poorly), we'll have fewer regrets knowing we took advantage of the opportunity when it was right in front of us.

charis

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2019, 09:12:47 AM »
I think it's important to note that parents may "parent" differently when they are with other adults, particularly those that don't have children.  I am much more likely to let my toddler fuss for a while in a closed off play area while I do the dishes or prepare a meal.  But with other adults that I am trying to interact with, I much more likely to redirect or intervene if I know it will prevent a behavior breakdown during that time.  There is much more to parenting than what you can see. 

Some kids are also more demanding of their parents' attention when other people are around, for a variety of reasons, but may do fine in a different or more private setting.  It's very difficult to predict how you will parent (or assess how others should parent) until you are in it. 

That being said, people's personalities before having children seem (in my limited experience) to correlate with their parenting style, in a lot of cases.  More so than how they intended or expected to parent.

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2019, 04:03:36 PM »
I found traveling with a pre-crawling infant infinitely easier than with a crawler, or the bolting toddler.  Then once the youngest was about 18 months, traveling got easier again.  But traveling with 5 and 8 year olds is a piece of cake.  But the travel is really different with children.  It is only funny once to have a toddler faceplant into a meal at a restaurant. Or try to eat dinner with a sleeping child in your lap.  I felt too guilty that I was torturing them after both incidents.  But you adapt - different types of sightseeing and meal times and you make it work.  We stopped hiking for a long stretch because they were too heavy to carry but unable to walk that far or that fast. 

We tried really hard to meet all our kids needs when they were really little before they knew they had a need and then when they could ask for something with words or needed to learn how to do things for themselves I started enlarging the boundaries.  I feel like I worked damn hard at parenting for a good long time, but I am cruising now.  I have these delightful teenagers that are launching into the world without any of the drama many of my cohort are experiencing.

The one thing that I am so very thankful for is that I got two and their age difference is 33 months.  It was brutally difficult for the first six months of youngest - every waking moment #1 was doing stuff that could result in injury or death to #2.  (Using the bouncy chair as a catapult or giving that baby swing an extra push or pouring thomas trains into the bassinet.  Or even just trying to get into the basinet to cuddle.)  Then when number 2 could crawl, the biting and destroying started on #1 or any toys or arrangements.  But almost by magic, they started to play together.  And we could trust them not to maim one other at any moment.  They became the best of friends (something in the many sibling rivalry books I read must of worked).  Our friends with single children couldn't have a dinner conversation without a child interupting and making demands long after mine stopped doing that.  Mine would have some project or activity to get to before bed and I don't know how I taught them to just do stuff without an adult, but they did all the time for long stretches.  I don't remember when we started reading the paper while they "read" their own books, we just have done that forever. 

Many aspects of our lives changed to allow the kids to be at the center of it, but we managed somehow to create a family lifestyle that had room for the adults as well.  I did a ton of reading and tried to always be a considered parent.  I have only worked full time for a few month stretches, but have always had some sort of part time work that I did while they were at daycare or while it was crazy town in the office.  We are not yet retiring and won't be early because of the choices I made not to do full time work once I had the second.  However, I wouldn't trade a thing now. 

My kids are thoughtful, responsible, funny and kind.  They make me laugh every day.  My oldest is heading off to university in 17 days but I still have 3 years before the youngest leaves the nest.  The time flew by. 

Cassie

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2019, 08:16:29 PM »
We were never helicopter parents and allowed them freedom appropriate to their age. Although now society is making this hard for parents to do. If we had company we balanced our children’s needs with our adult needs.  If friends had kids we might invite them all and the kids kept each other busy. Or we would put our kids to bed at 7 and have adult dinner with friends. We were strict about nap and bedtime so we didn’t have cranky kids.  Little kids are physically draining and big kids emotionally draining.  I loved raising my kids. 

Hula Hoop

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2019, 02:24:26 AM »
This is timely as we're about to head off for a 4 day "cultural" trip with our kids to a hill town within Italy.  We're balancing kid friendly stuff (touring the chocolate factory) with grownup friendly stuff (seeing amazing art and architecture).  Amazingly enough, the older kid (11) started liking art at quite an early age - maybe 2 years' ago - so now it's just a matter of keeping the younger one entertained while touring art museums or churches.  We've been surprised that both our kids have loved certain museums - for example when we went to Naples in December they both loved San Gennaro's jewels. 

Frugal Lizard -kudos to you for raising kids who are best friends.  Our kids are opposites but still manage to entertain each other a lot of the time.  I'd characterize their relationship as "frenemies" though rather than best friends.  I was raised as an only child (my sibling is much, much younger than me so I'm more like her mother) so it was important to me to have 2 close together not just so that they could play together but also so that they had that relationship. 

elliha

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2019, 07:02:16 AM »
As many have said, kids are all different and will require different things from their parents. A 1-2 year old is still very small and while I do agree that they should be able to play on their own for a while they should also seek their parents' attention quite often. I was told that parenting is like a rubberband, neither you nor your kid should want it to snap and break and both should want to stretch that band in different directions. Some kids will have a tight rubberband and others a stretchy one. Even so, they should want to bounce back to you quite often.

I was never the parent that planned very much or kept exact nap- and bedtimes when my kids were little. I had a tiny diaper bag or just threw some stuff into my purse, the kids slept in the stroller or in a Manduca carrier on my back. My daughter was pretty calm, my son was wild but he just got to stay in the stroller more until he grew some sense (at about 2-2.5) in places where he could get lost or wreck stuff. My kids have often done things that us adult want and often they are OK with that. When we want to do something fun for all of us we adapt to the kids more but we still avoid stuff us parents hate. This summer for example we had an outing where we travelled by steam train and a trip to a combined zoo and amusement park. Next summer we may go on a trip to Uppsala and Stockholm and I assuem not everything we do will be completely kid friendly but then again, not so bad that they will start acting up or just be completely bored. My daughter has always found it easier to be "well behaved" even if you compare the kids at the same age but with some considerations of his personality we have still had the chance to do stuff and have him tag along too.

While a child's basic personality is unique I do think parenting plays in. Parents who get more involved and who are very routine based will often have kids who have problems responding to change. All kids may react to change but instilling at least some flexibility often does pay off. Sure, if your child has special needs more routine may be necessary but usually it is not necessary other than for shorter periods of time. That doesn't mean my kids do not have stability but we have built that around us parents and us being available for questions, hugs etc rather than predictability in what happens in general if you understand what I mean. Our kids are always described as stable, loving, imaginative etc at evaluations at day care and school and they can also easily adapt to more set environments like school because they don't take doing stuff exactly the same way for granted.

As for travelling, we have not travelled a lot but we do travel regularly within the country to visit family and I have friends who have travelled with kids. Many of them have been on more spontanous trips where they have done what they have wanted and adapted a "go with the flow" schedule and this has been fine with kids as without them. The only thing is that you need to remember that doing things with kids can take extra time so have as little as possible of "I must be in x town by y date". If you are FIRE, who cares if the trip is 6 or 8 weeks so then that should be OK.

So in short:

- Kids are all unique and may respond in different ways
- They take up time and energy regardless of parenting style
- You will need to adapt to them

But:

- By not taking unnecessary actions, develop unnecessary habits with kids or parents you are likely to have at least some kind of room for adjustment for your kid.
- Don't make it all about you or all about the kid/s, make it about family and compromise so all of you can have fun, even together.

And love those kids if you get them, with enough love many things will fall into place naturally, that I am convinced of.

Millennialworkerbee

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2019, 08:13:24 AM »
I have a 3 year old and an 11 month old right now. Yes, my husband and I are always in the same room as our kids. Mostly because there are 2 of them and we are still worried about big brother with baby sister.

Yes, babies are super needy. Yes, every parent gets mad at their baby because they are needy at times when parents want to rest. That’s the gig of parenting, you have to do it even when you don’t want to.

I think I know what you’re talking about with people always being within arms reach, my brother is like that with his kid. Young toddlers are crazy though and capable of big messes and accidents. Maybe your friends would rather play “tag” on who is watching the kid than  have to clean up a big mess because they left the kid alone for 5 minutes.

You cannot predict or control what kind of 1-2 year old your kid will be. They will be easy in some ways and hard in others. Maybe the baby you see now is extra clingy, but is a great eater or napper? Other babies are very independent but won’t sleep through the night, for example.

If you want kids but aren’t looking forward to the toddler years, you can put them in daycare during that time. HUGE difference between being with a kid 24/7 and having 8-10 hours of a break every day (especially if you are FIRE and don’t have to work!)

FIRE47

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2019, 05:13:28 AM »
For the most part those early stages and even later in life depends largely on a roll of the dice and the personality of the child as much as anything you do as a parent. There is a chance no matter what you do especially at such a young age the child will be needy. Also  all children are extremely needy if that is the right term - they are essentially helpless after all. To think that if only Friend X had applied just the right parenting a very spirited 1 year old would be an independent wonder kid is a bit naive to say the least.

Based on your responses - which of course may not include every nuance and thought and opinion you have on the matter I would probably pause before having kids.

From what I’ve read kids are a lot  harder the older you are, they are also hard if you like to travel or if you are either strapped for cash or just don’t want to part with any money due to competing interests such as FIRE,  it doesn’t seem like you are checking many boxes objectively speaking.

I’m a homebody and we had our first young, we also don’t have any money trouble and I really don’t care that each child will delay FIRE by 6 months to a year, my style of travel is also slow and conducive to children when I do get the urge once year or so or for small road trips. I can honestly say that even with a screaming newborn I’ve loved every moment of it but also have support and got lucky with a calm happy baby.

I have also seen babies that through no fault of the parent just a very curious and energetic child that has not slept the night in 2 years. He just requires constant stimulation but there is nothing wrong with him, in fact his constant curiosity and energy could actually be positive as time moves on.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 05:17:58 AM by FIRE47 »

NorCal

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2019, 09:01:45 AM »
I currently have a 2 and 5 year old.  Here's my experience.

Assuming you have a baby proofed house (no choking hazards in reach, chemicals locked, etc.), they can start playing independently sometime in the 1-2  y/o range.  They can be left in a room alone in a room, as long as you can hear what they're doing.

That being said, the times the kid is willing to play independently has roughly zero correlation with when you want the kid to play independently.  In fact, I strongly suspect a big negative correlation there. 

Kids need a lot of attention.  They also behave different and need more attention in unfamiliar situations (like when you're meeting new people for the first time).

Mrs. D.

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #65 on: August 17, 2019, 09:55:54 PM »
Each child is SO different.  I have 4.  My first was and still is the easiest child/teenager ever.  She is almost 16.  If she had been an only we would have thought we were the "best" parents ever! Then the 2nd kid came hahaha...I love that kid to pieces but wow he was/is intense!  Number 2 has made me a better person and I have learned a lot about myself. Then 3 and 4...all different.  Different stages were/are hard.  Traveling with our kids has never been hard but we go with the flow.  We don't drive at night because they do better during the day etc.  We adapt to their needs and we all have a great time!  We always knew we wanted kids and never doubted that just how many.  Really do some soul searching!  I love having 4!

Many people parent very differently.  Also don't ever say I would never until you have been in their shoes....

This sounds like my DS. I was just saying to a friend today that my spirited son has taught me so much about myself, helped me grow in love, empathy, patience, compassion. Definitely made me a better person, but boy has it been a rocky journey.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2019, 08:15:30 AM »
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that you don't get to choose when your child needs you. We have a 15 month old. He's pretty chill on the scale of babies: in bed from 6pm to 6/7am with no nighttime crying, not massively adventurous or destructive, able to play nicely by himself in the same room as us. We do organise our life around his meals and naps but everyone is happier that way, and he has a very predictable schedule.

However! Earlier today Mr SLTD was making lunch and BabySLTD was pottering happily around looking in the kitchen cupboards when he started SCREAMING. At exactly the most crucial moment of lunch prep, he had shut his finger in a cupboard door. I was called in from doing stuff upstairs to tend to the wounded martyr.

A few weeks ago, I was ill. And then suddenly so was BabySLTD, for a week of unending misery.

Sometimes we have friends over and have just sat down with tea and cake when he does a pungent, explosive poo and we have to get up and change him that very second.

In between all of these events are lovely peaceful times when everyone can get on with their own thing (in reasonable proximity) but you have no idea when the shit is going to hit the fan...as it were. You have to arrange yourself around your toddler's unexpected urgent needs.

None of these involve what I would call "fussing". I don't think BabySLTD really does fussing. He's either fine or its the apocalypse. And I say this as someone who did hardass CIO at the youngest possible age because I was so fucking tired.

Also, a huge +1 to the luck of the draw. We have to be around BabySLTD all the time (though often passive, not active) because otherwise he gets sad and anxious. My friend has to be around her toddler all the time because otherwise she would pull all the furniture over just to see what was on top of it or something crazy like that. You can never babyproof enough to make an area 100% safe for a child that wants to get into something. But our "supervision" can be just reading our book with half an eye on him to make sure he's still in the room - it's certainly not full attention every waking minute. But if he needs us, we have to put down the book THAT SECOND.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #67 on: August 20, 2019, 10:51:25 AM »
OK, I actually take it back that BabySLTD doesn't fuss. Having spent the afternoon with him with that in the back of my mind, he definitely fusses. But I hadn't been thinking of most of it that way. Most of it is either, "I want to do this thing that I would totally be allowed to do but I need help doing it and haven't yet learned the words to ask for help, so I have to just make attention getting noises" (e.g. walk down steps, open downstairs toy trunk, open closed door) or "Muuuuuuuum, you're sooooooo mean!" (e.g. telling him not to play with the pruning saw then when he whines take it out of reach and out of sight and he gets over it, or taking him off for a nap when he doesn't want one) or "I obviously want a thing! Why don't you understand what it is? It's a thing! No, not that thing! A THING!" (and so we play the guessing game until either he gets it or I realise it's a thing he can't have). So even if I'm not hovering OVER him (which is what you seem to be describing), I'm still mentally and physically hovering AROUND him (or him around me if I try to pop out of the room - he just follows me!).

But I've been categorising all of that as either a communication attempt or him getting upset over not being allowed something or being told off. I guess if I just thought of all that as "fussing" I'd be pretty pissed off with him all the time. But I think of it as talking in a child too young to communicate his needs and wants effectively and too young to understand everything we say back to him.

I found the book "How to Talk so Little Kids Will Listen and How to Listen So Little Kids Will Talk" really helpful in framing our interactions in more collaborative ways, and how to decide when is a good time to intervene. I don't really believe in "natural consequences" at his age. Like, I believe in physical reality, but consequences beyond "Mummy and Daddy get cross" seems a bit sophisticated for him (e.g. separated by too much time, like if you eat all the treats now you won't have any tomorrow) or downright dangerous, depending on the activity.

I think you would find it helpful to read some of arebelspy's posts. I think he has a journal about travelling and posts about doing it with his children. They seem like the "freest" parents on this forum, jetting off all over the world with kids in tow.

The thing I didn't internalise until I became a parent was that even when the physical load is not too bad, the mental load is constant. I've ALWAYS got half an eye on what he's doing, and when he's asleep I've got half an ear out in case he's crying. For me it's not a choice - it's hormonal and I can't switch it off even if I know perfectly well he's being cared for by someone else. It's getting better with time, though, and I assume will fade by the point that he can actually be self-sufficient. It's calmed down since I stopped breastfeeding at ten months, and I am now able to sleep through some baby noises - so Mr SLTD can get him up in the morning, for example, and I can have a lie in rather than jolting intensely awake the second I hear them.

cloudsail

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #68 on: August 20, 2019, 11:10:24 AM »
Amen to the mental load thing. This is why even though now my kids are mostly self-sufficient, I still feel so much lighter when they're not at home and are being cared for by someone else. This summer when they were at camp was like heaven. It's not like they really need me much when they're at home, but mentally some part of my brain is always on them when they're under my care (which during the school year is 99% of the time since we homeschool).

I'm not nearly as alert as when they were babies, but it never completely turns off.

Luz

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2019, 07:38:25 PM »
Mine is 14 months. I chose a pretty old-school route after being a nanny for 15 years and studying up on modern child-raising (how things have changed over the past few decades and to what effect).
I do a number of things that make it so my life doesn't revolve around my daughter.  I don't entertain her during the day (she either plays or tags along with me with what I'm doing). She does independent play-time for at least an hour  every day (in her crib after breakfast- we built that time up over months). I always pause before I intervene with her, to give her a chance to sort things out for herself and also to teach her delayed gratification. I make it my mission to be uber-consistent with discipline and in holding the boundaries. I try to take as good of care of myself as I do her. I keep my dreams for my own life in focus.

But, despite my approach, she still has become super needy since turning 1. It's developmental (separation anxiety, frustration from not getting what she wants, for example). I don't cater to her at all, but she still WAILS at the drop of a hat (if I put her down, if I say "no"...) which she didn't do before except at 6 months with another separation anxiety period. Teething also doesn't make things easy. So I've decided to stay the course on the big things (not entertaining, pausing, consistent discipline) but let the little things go (peeing alone).

So all that to say that yes, there are many things you can do to make life more enjoyable while raising preschoolers (seriously, that independent play time is my sanity) but even so, it's unlikely that any parent would be able to avoid night wakings from sickness, clingy kids from separation anxiety and teething, kids who refuse to eat anything but fruit, toddlers throwing a tantrum when you tell them they can't stick their head in the toilet, etc. But it does help to go into it with the awareness that ages 1-3 are particularly trying. That makes it more doable, somehow.

Also totally agree that it would have been much easier to become a mother in my 20's in terms of stamina. However, I like that my identity is more established now and I'm not figuring out who I am so much, like in my twenties. There's something nice about being settled in who I am while raising kids.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2019, 07:41:15 AM »
So I've decided to stay the course on the big things (not entertaining, pausing, consistent discipline) but let the little things go (peeing alone).

One of the things which I have found interesting as a parent is the process of deciding what the big things and little things are for me. Turns out I have no desire to pee alone or go out in the evenings, but I would sell a kidney for a full night's sleep. I don't mind him having all his toys out at once all over the sitting room, but throwing things makes me furious. We try to have the minimum number of rules required to function as a family unit, but to make the rules we do have ironclad.

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2019, 04:15:06 PM »
OK, I actually take it back that BabySLTD doesn't fuss. Having spent the afternoon with him with that in the back of my mind, he definitely fusses. But I hadn't been thinking of most of it that way. Most of it is either, "I want to do this thing that I would totally be allowed to do but I need help doing it and haven't yet learned the words to ask for help, so I have to just make attention getting noises" (e.g. walk down steps, open downstairs toy trunk, open closed door) or "Muuuuuuuum, you're sooooooo mean!" (e.g. telling him not to play with the pruning saw then when he whines take it out of reach and out of sight and he gets over it, or taking him off for a nap when he doesn't want one) or "I obviously want a thing! Why don't you understand what it is? It's a thing! No, not that thing! A THING!" (and so we play the guessing game until either he gets it or I realise it's a thing he can't have). So even if I'm not hovering OVER him (which is what you seem to be describing), I'm still mentally and physically hovering AROUND him (or him around me if I try to pop out of the room - he just follows me!).

But I've been categorising all of that as either a communication attempt or him getting upset over not being allowed something or being told off. I guess if I just thought of all that as "fussing" I'd be pretty pissed off with him all the time. But I think of it as talking in a child too young to communicate his needs and wants effectively and too young to understand everything we say back to him.
This behavior here is really what I had in mind when I was talking about fussing, consequences (which I really should have described as cause & effect), and figuring things out. Naturally, a baby has a limited ability to understand things but I still feel inclined to treat that baby like a person in some respects. For example, if a one year old (basically walking, pulling open drawers, all that) wanted to pick up something immovable, why would I redirect it? Would I redirect an adult if they walked up to a tree and tried to pick it up and then wanted to pitch a fit about why it wouldn't move? No, you'd let that person learn that trees don't move. In the baby's case, figuring that out may involve crying but I'm okay with that if it means the child is learning that we simply can't do certain things. Perhaps my logic here is flawed and a one year old will not learn that it can't pick something up, but when I see the kinds of things our friend's son is learning, it seems reasonable to expect that he can also learn that you can't do certain things. In our friend's case, they constantly redirect the child, rather than let him struggle through the process of learning that he can't lift the 200 pound coffee table off the ground. I suppose my big beef with this is that it creates this dependency where the parent is constantly stuck right on top of the child because at that age they are always trying to do things they can't do.

So for the fussing that comes from a learning 12-18 month old not getting what it wants, is it acceptable to just let them fuss about certain things or are they not capable of moving past not getting something they want and this is just tantamount to being cruel? This is the part I would like to understand better.

Adam Zapple

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2019, 05:08:40 PM »
You set the boundaries as a parent.  I made (make) my kids cry all the time and I only feel bad if I was unreasonably grumpy.  If I always caved to their whining they would only eat cookies and ice cream, watch TV, or live at the playground full time.  I have set the stage since they were old enough to understand the word "no" that when I say it, I mean it.  This started as soon as they began having a little personality of their own.  My wife always caves and complains that the kids don't listen to her.  Her "no" is always negotiable.  This leads to a chaotic day when she is alone with them.  Neither of us ever hovered over our kids.  We allowed them to learn a lot on their own.

I intervene in their play if they are at risk of injury to themselves or others or if they will cause damage to something that I am not willing to let them damage.  1 and 2 year olds don't share so I will occasionally try to explain sharing to them but it's mostly pointless and for show if other kids/parents are involved.  I don't know why your friends stop their child from trying to pick up heavy things.  I would find that entertaining.  As others have mentioned, they may actually parent differently because you are there.  Perhaps they feel like they are teaching the child in some way or they fear you will think their child is stupid.

I have friends who explain every little thing to their children ad nauseum and it is absolutely exhausting to be around.  Every little fight or boo boo gets an entire dissertation explaining cause and effect, how actions make other people feel etc.  Unbearable.  I am more of a "you guys figure it out" kind of parent.  By the way, I am not saying that my way of parenting is right.  There is no playbook.  I'm just saying you are allowed to ignore your kids for a while.  They'll be fine.

Omy

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #73 on: August 23, 2019, 09:20:10 AM »
I am not a parent (by choice) because I didn't see how I could give up my life to the service of another. I really love my nieces and nephews (and most other children), but the idea of spending the first 5 years trying to keep a child alive sounded very scary to me. I've never kept a house plant alive for that long.

I also have a history of cancer in my family and did not want to pass on that genetic legacy - or die young and leave my children without a mother.

And, unfortunately, I believe life is going to get harder - not easier - in the near future with respect to the direction our political leaders are going. Do I really want to bring children into an already crowded world facing significant (probably devastating) effects from climate change?

I have not regretted my choice for a minute. If you are on the fence at all, consider the alternative of living life completely on your terms without dependents. FIRE is much easier if you don't have to guess at what a child is going to cost (and they can be expensive little critters). This isn't a choice for most people because the biological drive to have kids is strong. But you can have an amazing life without children if you choose.

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #74 on: August 23, 2019, 11:11:32 AM »
Following what Omy said, it's not just the expense of children - kids also need stability.  I'd dearly love to travel the world and spend months at a time in various places once FIREd but with kids at home who are going to school we need to at least spend the school year in one place.  And homeschooling definitely isn't our thing.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #75 on: August 23, 2019, 03:33:30 PM »
OK, I actually take it back that BabySLTD doesn't fuss. Having spent the afternoon with him with that in the back of my mind, he definitely fusses. But I hadn't been thinking of most of it that way. Most of it is either, "I want to do this thing that I would totally be allowed to do but I need help doing it and haven't yet learned the words to ask for help, so I have to just make attention getting noises" (e.g. walk down steps, open downstairs toy trunk, open closed door) or "Muuuuuuuum, you're sooooooo mean!" (e.g. telling him not to play with the pruning saw then when he whines take it out of reach and out of sight and he gets over it, or taking him off for a nap when he doesn't want one) or "I obviously want a thing! Why don't you understand what it is? It's a thing! No, not that thing! A THING!" (and so we play the guessing game until either he gets it or I realise it's a thing he can't have). So even if I'm not hovering OVER him (which is what you seem to be describing), I'm still mentally and physically hovering AROUND him (or him around me if I try to pop out of the room - he just follows me!).

But I've been categorising all of that as either a communication attempt or him getting upset over not being allowed something or being told off. I guess if I just thought of all that as "fussing" I'd be pretty pissed off with him all the time. But I think of it as talking in a child too young to communicate his needs and wants effectively and too young to understand everything we say back to him.
This behavior here is really what I had in mind when I was talking about fussing, consequences (which I really should have described as cause & effect), and figuring things out. Naturally, a baby has a limited ability to understand things but I still feel inclined to treat that baby like a person in some respects. For example, if a one year old (basically walking, pulling open drawers, all that) wanted to pick up something immovable, why would I redirect it? Would I redirect an adult if they walked up to a tree and tried to pick it up and then wanted to pitch a fit about why it wouldn't move? No, you'd let that person learn that trees don't move. In the baby's case, figuring that out may involve crying but I'm okay with that if it means the child is learning that we simply can't do certain things. Perhaps my logic here is flawed and a one year old will not learn that it can't pick something up, but when I see the kinds of things our friend's son is learning, it seems reasonable to expect that he can also learn that you can't do certain things. In our friend's case, they constantly redirect the child, rather than let him struggle through the process of learning that he can't lift the 200 pound coffee table off the ground. I suppose my big beef with this is that it creates this dependency where the parent is constantly stuck right on top of the child because at that age they are always trying to do things they can't do.

So for the fussing that comes from a learning 12-18 month old not getting what it wants, is it acceptable to just let them fuss about certain things or are they not capable of moving past not getting something they want and this is just tantamount to being cruel? This is the part I would like to understand better.

I'm really struggling with this example. I can't think of anything that BabySLTD does that is analogous to this. Like, a physically impossible thing that he keeps trying to do and gets upset when he can't do it.

The closest thing is that sometimes he tugs on the childlocked cupboard doors in the kitchen (most of them are not childlocked, a few are, it's always the same ones) and seems confused about why they won't open like the other ones. I usually say to him (from wherever I am) "Those doors are locked. Why don't you try the other ones instead?" because I like to talk to him a lot about what's going on because I think it helps him learn what words mean. Sometimes he moves on straight away, sometimes he tugs a few more times.

There's fussing when he can't get something he *wants* and we take it away (physically removing it from his sight if possible, sometimes physically removing him from it if not and he's really persistent), like not allowing him to touch scissors, but this fussing when he can't achieve the impossible is...weird. It's not something he does. Can you think of any other examples? Seriously, listen to everyone in this thread telling you you're stuck on top of a toddler whether they're happy or not for their own safety.

Also, they develop so fast at this stage. The other day we were walking along and he threw his bunny out of the buggy. I bent down, picked it up, and said to him really seriously, "If you throw your bunny on the floor one more time, I am putting it away until we get to the shops." He didn't throw it again the whole trip, and I really think he understood. Understood the tone if nothing else, but made the connection between his actions and my tone and chose to act accordingly. I doubt he would have been capable of that a month or two ago. But I do think you can tell most of the time what your child can understand and what they can't, and what they're genuinely incapable of and what they're just not trying at. He's genuinely incapable of walking down a step safely by himself even holding a handrail so I'm happy for him to make "Help!" noises (and I encourage it and thank him for asking for help! I don't want him diving off face first!), but he is perfectly capable of not throwing his spoon at me when he's finished eating. However, he also now understands "Wait" (word and hand signal) so I don't have to jump up literally that second. He can't wait for long, maybe a minute if I repeat it, but it buys me some time I didn't have a few months ago.

I really recommend reading 'How to Talk So Little Kids Will Listen'. It really opened my eyes to what young children are capable of, gave age-appropriate ways to treat them as a person, but also gave age-appropriate limits on what it's reasonable to expect of them. For example, there's no point giving a two year old a dissertation on cause and effect, but you can use a simple, one-sentence "If you do this, that happens" to connect the dots for them. If I'm 15 minutes late getting my son's dinner on the table, I don't tell him off for whining at me. He's hungry and doesn't have the words to tell me or the concept of the passage of time to understand why he's hungry and that dinner will be soon. I don't love the whining, but I am sympathetic to it. I get whiny when I'm hungry too, but I have grown up tools to deal with both the hunger and the hanger. He just has to wait for me to take my own sweet time.

Also, you should know that your own child's crying is plugged directly into your lizard brain. Do NOT underestimate this. It's not weakness. It's biology.

It's also OK to not love having a toddler. I hated having a baby a lot of the time. Now he's got mobile and started getting verbal he's really delightful to me and I love watching him learn and integrate into our lives like a real human. The months when the best I could hope for was him not actively crying? Not so great. But you can't give birth to a four year old, unfortunately!

Mr. Green

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #76 on: August 23, 2019, 05:29:48 PM »
OK, I actually take it back that BabySLTD doesn't fuss. Having spent the afternoon with him with that in the back of my mind, he definitely fusses. But I hadn't been thinking of most of it that way. Most of it is either, "I want to do this thing that I would totally be allowed to do but I need help doing it and haven't yet learned the words to ask for help, so I have to just make attention getting noises" (e.g. walk down steps, open downstairs toy trunk, open closed door) or "Muuuuuuuum, you're sooooooo mean!" (e.g. telling him not to play with the pruning saw then when he whines take it out of reach and out of sight and he gets over it, or taking him off for a nap when he doesn't want one) or "I obviously want a thing! Why don't you understand what it is? It's a thing! No, not that thing! A THING!" (and so we play the guessing game until either he gets it or I realise it's a thing he can't have). So even if I'm not hovering OVER him (which is what you seem to be describing), I'm still mentally and physically hovering AROUND him (or him around me if I try to pop out of the room - he just follows me!).

But I've been categorising all of that as either a communication attempt or him getting upset over not being allowed something or being told off. I guess if I just thought of all that as "fussing" I'd be pretty pissed off with him all the time. But I think of it as talking in a child too young to communicate his needs and wants effectively and too young to understand everything we say back to him.
This behavior here is really what I had in mind when I was talking about fussing, consequences (which I really should have described as cause & effect), and figuring things out. Naturally, a baby has a limited ability to understand things but I still feel inclined to treat that baby like a person in some respects. For example, if a one year old (basically walking, pulling open drawers, all that) wanted to pick up something immovable, why would I redirect it? Would I redirect an adult if they walked up to a tree and tried to pick it up and then wanted to pitch a fit about why it wouldn't move? No, you'd let that person learn that trees don't move. In the baby's case, figuring that out may involve crying but I'm okay with that if it means the child is learning that we simply can't do certain things. Perhaps my logic here is flawed and a one year old will not learn that it can't pick something up, but when I see the kinds of things our friend's son is learning, it seems reasonable to expect that he can also learn that you can't do certain things. In our friend's case, they constantly redirect the child, rather than let him struggle through the process of learning that he can't lift the 200 pound coffee table off the ground. I suppose my big beef with this is that it creates this dependency where the parent is constantly stuck right on top of the child because at that age they are always trying to do things they can't do.

So for the fussing that comes from a learning 12-18 month old not getting what it wants, is it acceptable to just let them fuss about certain things or are they not capable of moving past not getting something they want and this is just tantamount to being cruel? This is the part I would like to understand better.

I'm really struggling with this example. I can't think of anything that BabySLTD does that is analogous to this. Like, a physically impossible thing that he keeps trying to do and gets upset when he can't do it.

The closest thing is that sometimes he tugs on the childlocked cupboard doors in the kitchen (most of them are not childlocked, a few are, it's always the same ones) and seems confused about why they won't open like the other ones. I usually say to him (from wherever I am) "Those doors are locked. Why don't you try the other ones instead?" because I like to talk to him a lot about what's going on because I think it helps him learn what words mean. Sometimes he moves on straight away, sometimes he tugs a few more times.

There's fussing when he can't get something he *wants* and we take it away (physically removing it from his sight if possible, sometimes physically removing him from it if not and he's really persistent), like not allowing him to touch scissors, but this fussing when he can't achieve the impossible is...weird. It's not something he does. Can you think of any other examples? Seriously, listen to everyone in this thread telling you you're stuck on top of a toddler whether they're happy or not for their own safety.

Also, they develop so fast at this stage. The other day we were walking along and he threw his bunny out of the buggy. I bent down, picked it up, and said to him really seriously, "If you throw your bunny on the floor one more time, I am putting it away until we get to the shops." He didn't throw it again the whole trip, and I really think he understood. Understood the tone if nothing else, but made the connection between his actions and my tone and chose to act accordingly. I doubt he would have been capable of that a month or two ago. But I do think you can tell most of the time what your child can understand and what they can't, and what they're genuinely incapable of and what they're just not trying at. He's genuinely incapable of walking down a step safely by himself even holding a handrail so I'm happy for him to make "Help!" noises (and I encourage it and thank him for asking for help! I don't want him diving off face first!), but he is perfectly capable of not throwing his spoon at me when he's finished eating. However, he also now understands "Wait" (word and hand signal) so I don't have to jump up literally that second. He can't wait for long, maybe a minute if I repeat it, but it buys me some time I didn't have a few months ago.

I really recommend reading 'How to Talk So Little Kids Will Listen'. It really opened my eyes to what young children are capable of, gave age-appropriate ways to treat them as a person, but also gave age-appropriate limits on what it's reasonable to expect of them. For example, there's no point giving a two year old a dissertation on cause and effect, but you can use a simple, one-sentence "If you do this, that happens" to connect the dots for them. If I'm 15 minutes late getting my son's dinner on the table, I don't tell him off for whining at me. He's hungry and doesn't have the words to tell me or the concept of the passage of time to understand why he's hungry and that dinner will be soon. I don't love the whining, but I am sympathetic to it. I get whiny when I'm hungry too, but I have grown up tools to deal with both the hunger and the hanger. He just has to wait for me to take my own sweet time.

Also, you should know that your own child's crying is plugged directly into your lizard brain. Do NOT underestimate this. It's not weakness. It's biology.

It's also OK to not love having a toddler. I hated having a baby a lot of the time. Now he's got mobile and started getting verbal he's really delightful to me and I love watching him learn and integrate into our lives like a real human. The months when the best I could hope for was him not actively crying? Not so great. But you can't give birth to a four year old, unfortunately!
As an alternative example you can really substitute anything where a toddler is safely struggling to interact with its environment. Trying to squeeze in a space to small to fit, lift something that's too heavy, place an object inside another object that doesn't fit, open a drawer that doesn't open, ram a cart through a wall. Basically learning about physical world around them. Those actions get constant redirection and I wonder if it's necessary or if not doing so would allow the toddler to learn that the thing they're trying to do doesn't work that way.

If I were the parent and had to turn my toddlers cart around every time he ran into a wall to prevent him from crying over being frustrated that he can't run through the wall vs. letting him cry about it, then turn the cart around himself and move on, I'd spend my afternoon constantly two steps behind my kid and cart. That's the kind of thing I'm thinking of.

I have put that book on my list for our next library run.

Freedom2016

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #77 on: August 24, 2019, 04:43:21 AM »
You're pretty much on suicide watch for a 1-2 year old; you have to have your eyes on them almost constantly to be sure they don't injure/kill themselves. And baby-proofing only takes you so far - oh, who knew my kid was going to find and then eat the huge dust bunny under the couch... and then choke on it?

But there is a difference between having your eyes on them and intervening with every little thing they do.

You will learn to distinguish their noises and cries. I have no problem with my kid making frustrated noises or crying a bit while they're figuring things out. Yes as you note this is part of learning. But sometimes what started as a little cry of frustration escalates into an out-of-control-inconsolable-wail and that's when its no longer productive to let them struggle alone.

No question, the diaper years are intense. You're smart to do more travel now, especially if you can hit some bucket list things that would be hard/less enjoyable with kids. But remember that those intense years are just a blip in the decades of life you will share with those kids. You will spend more time knowing your kids as adult humans than as needy little gremlins. :)

I have friends who do tons of travel with their little ones (and seem to enjoy it!), and more power to them, but for me travel with kids is largely stressful and energy-sapping... though they're now getting to ages where it's getting better (4.5 and 7). This one is a good example of how I *thought* I was going to be one kind of parent (one who takes her kid everywhere because the kid will adapt to MY life!) and I turned out to be a very different kind of parent (who hates traveling with little kids because it's so exhausting and they don't enjoy it and won't remember much anyway so it just ruins my experience).

Probably good to expect some of that for yourself, including the possibility that with your own actual kid you might find yourself preferring to be more hands-on than you're describing here.


 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 04:45:10 AM by Freedom2016 »

shelivesthedream

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #78 on: August 24, 2019, 12:36:21 PM »
As an alternative example you can really substitute anything where a toddler is safely struggling to interact with its environment. Trying to squeeze in a space to small to fit, lift something that's too heavy, place an object inside another object that doesn't fit, open a drawer that doesn't open, ram a cart through a wall. Basically learning about physical world around them. Those actions get constant redirection and I wonder if it's necessary or if not doing so would allow the toddler to learn that the thing they're trying to do doesn't work that way.

If I were the parent and had to turn my toddlers cart around every time he ran into a wall to prevent him from crying over being frustrated that he can't run through the wall vs. letting him cry about it, then turn the cart around himself and move on, I'd spend my afternoon constantly two steps behind my kid and cart. That's the kind of thing I'm thinking of.

I have put that book on my list for our next library run.

OK, none of these things are safety issues for me. Struggling to successfully interact with their environment, I guess, but they're not going to hurt themselves.

However... EXAMPLE BINGO! Running the cart into a wall is EXACTLY what we've been dealing with lately. It's a little wooden cart that doesn't have turny wheels and isn't super lightweight like plastic (but isn't unreasonably heavy either). The problem is, he runs gleefully behind it til he hits something, then either tugs it backwards and runs over his foot or tries unsuccessfully to turn it around. I don't know why he can't do it. It's not a strength issue. He just can't click with how to drag one end sideways.

At first I thought it was a strength/dexterity issue and he found the cart really fun, so we played with it together and I turned it round for him and cheered him on as he ran and put little things in it for him to run to the other end of the room. Funtimes! Then he wanted to play with it while I was making dinner. Less fun. I turned it round a few times for him but he wouldn't be patient and wait and cried every time he hit the wall. The next day I tried to teach him how to turn it round, demonstrating and trying to practice with him. I figured if I invested an hour, he'd get many hours of hands-off playing. He didn't get it. Many tears. We took the damn thing away. He can have it back again in a month or two. It's more trouble than it's worth right now.

The question is really, how long do you want to listen to your kid cry for? How long are you willing to wait for them to learn? For sleep, I was like "He can cry for a month solid if I get to sleep afterwards". For a cart? Not worth the aggro. He's got other stuff to play with. Is it necessary? Well, apart from feeding them, clothing them, letting them sleep and making sure they don't maim or kill themselves, nothing's necessary. It's all up to you. I chose to not let him work it out with the cart, but I also chose to not keep having to help him with it.

gatortator

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #79 on: August 24, 2019, 01:26:40 PM »
So for the fussing that comes from a learning 12-18 month old not getting what it wants, is it acceptable to just let them fuss about certain things or are they not capable of moving past not getting something they want and this is just tantamount to being cruel? This is the part I would like to understand better.

In addition to the "how to talk" book, other parenting books, which I like and may address the parenting style you seem to be seeking, are

"Duct Tape Parenting: A Less Is More Approach to Raising Respectful, Responsible, and Resilient Kids"  by Vicki Hoefle  which the author admits is a modern version of the work of Dreikurs .  I reference this book and her other books often.  caution-- some consider her tone a bit harsh and too direct , but it never bothered me.

The Gesell Institute Series of Child Development, originally written in the 1970s and broken down by age-- for instance, one book is titled "Your Two Year Old:  Terrible or Tender".  These books really helped me understand the hormonal cycles of kids and relating the physiological with the more emotional side of things.   I also find these at my library.

"Honey I Wrecked the Kids" by Alyson Schafer.  another modern version of work by Dreikurs.  some feel this is a softer and gentler take on the subject compared to the more direct and blunt Hoefle.  so same material but different presentation.  I think she also had a call-in radio show on CBC.

"Children: the Challenge"  by  Rudolph Dreikurs  originally published in the 1960s but reprinted in the 1990s and is carried at my library.

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #80 on: August 24, 2019, 02:16:11 PM »
So for the fussing that comes from a learning 12-18 month old not getting what it wants, is it acceptable to just let them fuss about certain things or are they not capable of moving past not getting something they want and this is just tantamount to being cruel? This is the part I would like to understand better.
The Gesell Institute Series of Child Development, originally written in the 1970s and broken down by age-- for instance, one book is titled "Your Two Year Old:  Terrible or Tender".  These books really helped me understand the hormonal cycles of kids and relating the physiological with the more emotional side of things.   I also find these at my library.

A thing that changed my perspective a lot is imagining my toddler is a teenager who can't talk and has a curfew of 6pm. I'm more sympathetic to his existential crises.

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #81 on: August 24, 2019, 09:35:46 PM »
So for the fussing that comes from a learning 12-18 month old not getting what it wants, is it acceptable to just let them fuss about certain things or are they not capable of moving past not getting something they want and this is just tantamount to being cruel? This is the part I would like to understand better.
The Gesell Institute Series of Child Development, originally written in the 1970s and broken down by age-- for instance, one book is titled "Your Two Year Old:  Terrible or Tender".  These books really helped me understand the hormonal cycles of kids and relating the physiological with the more emotional side of things.   I also find these at my library.

A thing that changed my perspective a lot is imagining my toddler is a teenager who can't talk and has a curfew of 6pm. I'm more sympathetic to his existential crises.

Bonus of this approach: it's surprisingly helpful at times when they actually ARE teenagers, but they can't manage to express themselves and they are exhausted. Sympathy (even while holding the line) is a great tool with teenagers, and everyone wants to be genuinely seen.

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #82 on: August 27, 2019, 07:19:11 AM »
OK, I actually take it back that BabySLTD doesn't fuss. Having spent the afternoon with him with that in the back of my mind, he definitely fusses. But I hadn't been thinking of most of it that way. Most of it is either, "I want to do this thing that I would totally be allowed to do but I need help doing it and haven't yet learned the words to ask for help, so I have to just make attention getting noises" (e.g. walk down steps, open downstairs toy trunk, open closed door) or "Muuuuuuuum, you're sooooooo mean!" (e.g. telling him not to play with the pruning saw then when he whines take it out of reach and out of sight and he gets over it, or taking him off for a nap when he doesn't want one) or "I obviously want a thing! Why don't you understand what it is? It's a thing! No, not that thing! A THING!" (and so we play the guessing game until either he gets it or I realise it's a thing he can't have). So even if I'm not hovering OVER him (which is what you seem to be describing), I'm still mentally and physically hovering AROUND him (or him around me if I try to pop out of the room - he just follows me!).

But I've been categorising all of that as either a communication attempt or him getting upset over not being allowed something or being told off. I guess if I just thought of all that as "fussing" I'd be pretty pissed off with him all the time. But I think of it as talking in a child too young to communicate his needs and wants effectively and too young to understand everything we say back to him.
This behavior here is really what I had in mind when I was talking about fussing, consequences (which I really should have described as cause & effect), and figuring things out. Naturally, a baby has a limited ability to understand things but I still feel inclined to treat that baby like a person in some respects. For example, if a one year old (basically walking, pulling open drawers, all that) wanted to pick up something immovable, why would I redirect it? Would I redirect an adult if they walked up to a tree and tried to pick it up and then wanted to pitch a fit about why it wouldn't move? No, you'd let that person learn that trees don't move. In the baby's case, figuring that out may involve crying but I'm okay with that if it means the child is learning that we simply can't do certain things. Perhaps my logic here is flawed and a one year old will not learn that it can't pick something up, but when I see the kinds of things our friend's son is learning, it seems reasonable to expect that he can also learn that you can't do certain things. In our friend's case, they constantly redirect the child, rather than let him struggle through the process of learning that he can't lift the 200 pound coffee table off the ground. I suppose my big beef with this is that it creates this dependency where the parent is constantly stuck right on top of the child because at that age they are always trying to do things they can't do.

So for the fussing that comes from a learning 12-18 month old not getting what it wants, is it acceptable to just let them fuss about certain things or are they not capable of moving past not getting something they want and this is just tantamount to being cruel? This is the part I would like to understand better.

I'm really struggling with this example. I can't think of anything that BabySLTD does that is analogous to this. Like, a physically impossible thing that he keeps trying to do and gets upset when he can't do it.

The closest thing is that sometimes he tugs on the childlocked cupboard doors in the kitchen (most of them are not childlocked, a few are, it's always the same ones) and seems confused about why they won't open like the other ones. I usually say to him (from wherever I am) "Those doors are locked. Why don't you try the other ones instead?" because I like to talk to him a lot about what's going on because I think it helps him learn what words mean. Sometimes he moves on straight away, sometimes he tugs a few more times.

There's fussing when he can't get something he *wants* and we take it away (physically removing it from his sight if possible, sometimes physically removing him from it if not and he's really persistent), like not allowing him to touch scissors, but this fussing when he can't achieve the impossible is...weird. It's not something he does. Can you think of any other examples? Seriously, listen to everyone in this thread telling you you're stuck on top of a toddler whether they're happy or not for their own safety.

Also, they develop so fast at this stage. The other day we were walking along and he threw his bunny out of the buggy. I bent down, picked it up, and said to him really seriously, "If you throw your bunny on the floor one more time, I am putting it away until we get to the shops." He didn't throw it again the whole trip, and I really think he understood. Understood the tone if nothing else, but made the connection between his actions and my tone and chose to act accordingly. I doubt he would have been capable of that a month or two ago. But I do think you can tell most of the time what your child can understand and what they can't, and what they're genuinely incapable of and what they're just not trying at. He's genuinely incapable of walking down a step safely by himself even holding a handrail so I'm happy for him to make "Help!" noises (and I encourage it and thank him for asking for help! I don't want him diving off face first!), but he is perfectly capable of not throwing his spoon at me when he's finished eating. However, he also now understands "Wait" (word and hand signal) so I don't have to jump up literally that second. He can't wait for long, maybe a minute if I repeat it, but it buys me some time I didn't have a few months ago.

I really recommend reading 'How to Talk So Little Kids Will Listen'. It really opened my eyes to what young children are capable of, gave age-appropriate ways to treat them as a person, but also gave age-appropriate limits on what it's reasonable to expect of them. For example, there's no point giving a two year old a dissertation on cause and effect, but you can use a simple, one-sentence "If you do this, that happens" to connect the dots for them. If I'm 15 minutes late getting my son's dinner on the table, I don't tell him off for whining at me. He's hungry and doesn't have the words to tell me or the concept of the passage of time to understand why he's hungry and that dinner will be soon. I don't love the whining, but I am sympathetic to it. I get whiny when I'm hungry too, but I have grown up tools to deal with both the hunger and the hanger. He just has to wait for me to take my own sweet time.

Also, you should know that your own child's crying is plugged directly into your lizard brain. Do NOT underestimate this. It's not weakness. It's biology.

It's also OK to not love having a toddler. I hated having a baby a lot of the time. Now he's got mobile and started getting verbal he's really delightful to me and I love watching him learn and integrate into our lives like a real human. The months when the best I could hope for was him not actively crying? Not so great. But you can't give birth to a four year old, unfortunately!
As an alternative example you can really substitute anything where a toddler is safely struggling to interact with its environment. Trying to squeeze in a space to small to fit, lift something that's too heavy, place an object inside another object that doesn't fit, open a drawer that doesn't open, ram a cart through a wall. Basically learning about physical world around them. Those actions get constant redirection and I wonder if it's necessary or if not doing so would allow the toddler to learn that the thing they're trying to do doesn't work that way.

If I were the parent and had to turn my toddlers cart around every time he ran into a wall to prevent him from crying over being frustrated that he can't run through the wall vs. letting him cry about it, then turn the cart around himself and move on, I'd spend my afternoon constantly two steps behind my kid and cart. That's the kind of thing I'm thinking of.

I have put that book on my list for our next library run.

I have a few thoughts:

-It sounds like you might be interested in Janet Lansbury's parenting work. Some of the things she emphasizes are a "yes space" where kids can entertain themselves, observing rather than distracting them, and letting them communicate their needs (which sometimes means giving them a minute to be frustrated about something without fixing it). Link: https://www.janetlansbury.com/2010/04/baby-interrupted-7-ways-to-build-your-childs-focus-and-attention-span/  I find reading her articles (I follow on facebook) to make me a calmer parent, one who does take that beat before reacting.

-For me personally, the newborn-1 year time period was incredibly hard for a variety of reasons you probably don't need details about. At 14 months, however, for the first time I thought, "Oh shit. I'm going to want to go through all of that again just to have a fourteen-month-old one more time in my life." I have felt that way consistently from then until now (3yo)!

-You don't know what you're going to get. My kid turned three this summer and this week, for the first time, slept through the night more than 3 nights in a row without needing a parent. (GLORY.) It wasn't that we didn't try to sleep train, it's that when we did even the gentlest of training he would cry so hard he would vomit. A lot. We had friends who sailed through sleep training and had kids who slept through the night at 6 weeks. A lot of it just really depends on your kid.

-I was talking about wrestling with the idea of having a second child (which for us will likely involve intrusive, expensive IVF again) and going through both the getting pregnant, the staying pregnant, and that first year again. She pointed out that having a baby is signing up for a very intense three years, but you're hoping for 40+ years of joy and connection out of that. I hadn't really thought about it that way before.

I used to think that people on the fence should probably go for it, though now I feel like the first year was for us So Hard that I don't think that anymore; I am actually grateful to the struggles we had conceiving because I am constantly grateful for even the hard stuff, because we might not have gotten to experience this, and I'm constantly reminded that we chose every bit of this and worked hard to get it. Parenting has been the hardest and most exhausting thing I've ever done and also the most joyful, important, meaningful, existential thing. But for people who do want it, I think it's amazing. I wouldn't trade it for any amount of money or travel or sleeping in.

Check out Janet Lansbury and RIE, I think that could be what you're looking for in terms of what might be reasonable to hope/expect/encourage in terms of independent play and intervention.

Mr. Green

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #83 on: August 28, 2019, 07:39:52 AM »
Ironically, my wife and I are currently experiencing a week of Parenthood. Our friends had to go out of town for a once in a lifetime opportunity and we agreed to watch the kids. So we're taking care of two school age children and a 1-year old for eight days.

We now realize that people who have kids in two different age groups that require completely different demands are superhuman. Even with my wife and I not working it is almost non-stop every moment the kids are awake and present because the different demands between the age groups typically requires and adult to be dealing with each so no one gets a break. If we had jobs, I'm not so sure that we would even exist anymore as individuals because there would be no time to do the first thing for ourselves. It's quite disturbing.

Coming from the position of FIRE and doing whatever we want when ever we want there's no way around it. The forced daily routine just....sucks. I could see where if you're already held to a routine for work that having a child routine doesn't profoundly change your life as far as freedom is concerned, but being constrained by jobs makes it a totally different ballgame. This has been an incredibly eye opening experience for us, probably not in a good way for the thought of having kids.

Cassie

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2019, 09:58:28 AM »
My kids were 3 and 7 when I had my third and I found the spacing to be very helpful. I am glad you are having this experience because I don’t think you guys really want kids.  People that usually want children have a strong desire and aren’t questioning it.  What I have experienced is that when people are questioning it they usually don’t deep down want children.  I think having children should not be taken lightly and are glad that you are making a thoughtful decision. My kids did the same.

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #85 on: August 28, 2019, 10:19:49 AM »

Bonus of this approach: it's surprisingly helpful at times when they actually ARE teenagers, but they can't manage to express themselves and they are exhausted. Sympathy Empathy (even while holding the line) is a great tool with teenagers human beings, and everyone wants to be genuinely seen.

love your post, but added some edits for all of us to chew on about all relationships. Let's all try to have a little more awareness and appreciation of the beautiful struggle that is life. Be kind to one another.

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #86 on: August 28, 2019, 10:51:53 AM »
I agree with @Cassie - it sounds like deep down you don't really want kids.  I've always wanted kids so nothing would have made me question this. If you're questioning the life style changes that having kids would bring then it's probably not your thing.

Mr. Green

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #87 on: August 28, 2019, 03:01:44 PM »
You could stop at one -- many people do.  And two retired adults managing one small person with total flexibility about when and where the other tasks of adulting get done is not that hard to manage.
We are both pretty firmly in the one and done category if we choose to have kids. We do understand that being responsible for three children requiring two totally different sets of needs over the course of a week is not the same as having one baby and growing into the routine of parenting as the child grows. Perhaps we'll travel extensively for a year and realize it isn't for us. I don't think we want to homeschool so at the moment we just see a 5 year old needing to start school and locking us I one location and it feels like prison. Hopefully this view will moderate a bit as freedom becomes old hat.

cloudsail

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #88 on: August 28, 2019, 11:01:08 PM »
You could stop at one -- many people do.  And two retired adults managing one small person with total flexibility about when and where the other tasks of adulting get done is not that hard to manage.
We are both pretty firmly in the one and done category if we choose to have kids. We do understand that being responsible for three children requiring two totally different sets of needs over the course of a week is not the same as having one baby and growing into the routine of parenting as the child grows. Perhaps we'll travel extensively for a year and realize it isn't for us. I don't think we want to homeschool so at the moment we just see a 5 year old needing to start school and locking us I one location and it feels like prison. Hopefully this view will moderate a bit as freedom becomes old hat.

Well, your views could also change. As recently as a couple years ago, I thought people who homeschooled were crazy :) And now I'm doing it! At first because we didn't have a better option for our oldest, but now we like it so much we are going to homeschool the second one. Granted both the kids will still go to a "school" five days a week, it's just not a traditional one and gives us a lot of flexibility for travel. Though it's true that we are now reluctant to move away from our current location until both kids are much older. Kids need stability and some place to call "home".

elliha

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #89 on: August 29, 2019, 01:23:42 AM »
When I only had one child I was very much leaning towards not having more but then I had this little longing for another one at the same time as my husband and we kind decided to see what happenend and you know, that thing that can happen if you have sex without birthcontrol happened. We now have two and I think two is much easier than one, much easier. They are four years apart and the older has always been able to amuse the younger and with time the opposite was also true. They love each other deeply, that is clear, and while they do fight, they are mostly pretty good friends. An example: With one three year old one of us had to get up every weekend morning when she woke up. Now with a three year old and a seven year old I stay in bed and tell them to have some fruit until I am ready to get up. They love being able to watch TV on their own, pick what to eat for breakfast and have some time for themselves and I get to sleep. Their dad often makes errands in the morning and leaves around the time they wake up.

mubington

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #90 on: August 29, 2019, 10:55:47 AM »
If you had stuck with one, would the 7 year old  get up on their own, eat fruit and watch TV safely? Or is the interaction vital to this happening without bugging you?

StarBright

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #91 on: August 29, 2019, 11:10:12 AM »
Every time I see this thread title pop up I just want to laugh - I can opine on the neediness of my children for days! :)

. . . so no one gets a break. If we had jobs, I'm not so sure that we would even exist anymore as individuals because there would be no time to do the first thing for ourselves. It's quite disturbing.


Honestly, I think the quoted is a very accurate take on parenting more than one child. We are a two job, two kid household and both DH and I struggle to maintain a sense of identity (though I do think this would be easier with just one child). The other caveat is that people who have family nearby that are able and willing to support and provide childcare also seem to maintain their lives better as well.

elliha

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #92 on: August 29, 2019, 11:26:36 AM »
If you had stuck with one, would the 7 year old  get up on their own, eat fruit and watch TV safely? Or is the interaction vital to this happening without bugging you?

At seven, she would probably have gone up and been on her own for a while but for a significantly shorter time and there would be much more of "moooooooooooom!" I think. When she is alone even now she is easily bored.

charis

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #93 on: August 29, 2019, 11:42:22 AM »
If you had stuck with one, would the 7 year old  get up on their own, eat fruit and watch TV safely? Or is the interaction vital to this happening without bugging you?

Many, if not most, younger kids like company and tend to seek it out when they are alone.  My kids (6 and 9) are somewhat mischievous though, particularly when they are together, so I can't fall back to sleep when I know that they are up for the day and bumming around the house alone.

elliha

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #94 on: August 30, 2019, 02:26:10 AM »
If you had stuck with one, would the 7 year old  get up on their own, eat fruit and watch TV safely? Or is the interaction vital to this happening without bugging you?

Many, if not most, younger kids like company and tend to seek it out when they are alone.  My kids (6 and 9) are somewhat mischievous though, particularly when they are together, so I can't fall back to sleep when I know that they are up for the day and bumming around the house alone.

Mine haven't yet done anything big but I have woken up to banana peels on the floor, very "inventive" games involving things I don't like them playing with without asking but no catastrophe. I am somewhat protected by the fact that the older likes to tell on her brother doing stuff he isn't supposed to do and that her love of getting him into trouble is still higher than her will to do stuff I don't allow.

Mr. Green

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #95 on: September 10, 2019, 01:49:54 PM »
I wanted to circle back to this topic with some final observations now that our friends are back home and have resumed parenting duties.

I solidly believe now that some of the struggles I see them going through are entirely self-inflicted. While they were away we had to watch a 13-month old for 8 days and we were much more hands off than they were. We didn't pick the baby up every time he wanted to be held, we didn't redirect him every time he couldn't do something, etc. And it was all fine. We were still attentive but you could see just in that week that he was learning to fuss at us less and become a little more independent. Now that they are home and hovering he is back to fussing all the time about something because their reaction to that fussing has reinforced the idea that if he fusses someone else will do the thing he wants for him.

It has been great to see this change directly because it does a lot to allay my fears that this is just they way having a 1 year old is.

I very much appreciated all the input from my fellow Mustachians!

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #96 on: September 10, 2019, 05:45:42 PM »
If you had stuck with one, would the 7 year old  get up on their own, eat fruit and watch TV safely? Or is the interaction vital to this happening without bugging you?

Many, if not most, younger kids like company and tend to seek it out when they are alone.  My kids (6 and 9) are somewhat mischievous though, particularly when they are together, so I can't fall back to sleep when I know that they are up for the day and bumming around the house alone.

Mine haven't yet done anything big but I have woken up to banana peels on the floor, very "inventive" games involving things I don't like them playing with without asking but no catastrophe. I am somewhat protected by the fact that the older likes to tell on her brother doing stuff he isn't supposed to do and that her love of getting him into trouble is still higher than her will to do stuff I don't allow.
One time in the early hours of the morning (5ish IIRC) I was awakened by the furnace in high gear.  It was still dark so not typical for the furnace to really cycle a lot- and it was early spring so it wasn't like it was -25C, just around freezing but the fan was in overdrive. Realizing the hall light was on, I got up.  Son was not in his bed.  And the front foyer light was on.  The front door was open - wide open.  Just as I was slipping into panic mode and checking for winter coat and boots, I noticed the kitchen light was on too.  And the lights down to the family room and all the family room lights...and the lights to the basement and all the lights in the Lego room too.  Son was about six and he was happily engrossed in Lego that he didn't notice me until I was right beside him.  He had let the cat out before he got busy with Lego.  He was having trouble sleeping.  I went back to bed but I didn't go back to sleep because I had gotten that Mom adrenaline going thinking he had gone for a walk in the cold darkness in his pj's. Some kids do that kind of thing.

KBCB

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #97 on: September 28, 2019, 07:02:13 AM »
This is an interesting post. Children can be the same and yet very different. I have a son and he is as independent as he can be. Children need constant supervision until they are over three and even then it needs to be safe (children still swallow  small objects until 5 years old, including but not limited to stuffing stuff in noses and ears). As my son is 2.5 we have seen the first few stages and although it is super challenging at times it is rewarding in so many ways.

Think about not the immediate hardship of an infant but your future. Do you want a child, do you see yourself with a bigger family. If the answer is yes, its worth the hard work. If the answer is no then don't have the kid.

For what its worth we are thinking of a second child and going through this similar discussion (minus the travel and being fired).

AO1FireTo

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #98 on: September 28, 2019, 07:18:31 AM »
It's good that you are asking this.  I see a lot of good advice in this thread.  My wife and I have a 2.5 year old daughter, and although we both love her dearly, it is not easy some days.  Kids need a lot of attention and it will soak up most of your free time.  We also don't allow her any screen time so that increases the amount of time we need to play and entertain her.  You always have to keep in mind, their minds are developing and when thy cry, that's their response to being frustrated.  If you have family that can help out, it makes it a lot easier.  If Grandma or Grampa can come over a few hours when you need a break it will make it much easier.  Don't feel guilty about needing a break:)

You will mourn the freedom you had in your old life, my wife and I talk about that often.  However, it's also been an amazing experience and watching them grow and experience new things is amazing.  Don't let anyone push you into this, my wife and I both agree, if we chose not to have kids, life would still be good.  Anything worth doing takes sacrifice.

Laura33

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #99 on: October 01, 2019, 11:19:40 AM »
OK, some thoughts from (almost) the other side of things:

1.  Some kids are easy, some kids are tough.  You have no control over which one you get.

2.  There are as many different types of parenting styles as there are kids.  The key is finding the style that works with the kid you have.

3.  Luckily, humans have big brains and are readily adaptable.  The key is to be flexible about it, and have the humility to admit that you may not know it all and that there isn't only one "right" way.  The right way is that one that results in a healthy, happy family.  Period.

4.  You can live whatever kind of life you want with kids, including full-time travel if you want.

5.  People here are, in general, tremendously well-suited to handle parenting, if they so choose.  Because they are creative and independent enough to chart a course different than most of society, and flexible and self-confident enough to change that course when needed.

6.  IME, people with one special-needs child may be overprotective with their other kid(s).  So that may not be an ideal example to judge from.

7.  Also IME, all of the parenting styles within the realm of reason result in pretty good, normal kids.  Barring abuse, the biggest issue is when there is a huge disconnect between the kid's needs and the parent's natural style, and the parent is very "respect my authori-tay" and refuses to even consider changing.  So if you avoid being quite so full of yourself, your kid's most likely going to be fine.

8.  Whatever you do, keep your sense of humor intact.  Because it is all fundamentally absurd.

Look, I have two.  The first was a giant PITA whose terrible twos went from 13 mos. to 42 mos., who couldn't tolerate being out of my sight for even a second, who was ADHD basically from birth, and who never. shut. up.*  I was a pretty hands-off, no-nonsense parent, and BOY did none of that work with her; she was basically a remora.  My second was a big, cute, fluffy marshmallow, who was happy to play quietly by himself from day 1 -- if I'd had him first, I'd have thought I was the best parent ever.

With my first, I worked harder than I ever had in my life to try to figure her out -- and I mean, harder than studying for the Bar exam in two different states.  I spent probably what amounts to months of my life worrying about her.  When she was 12, all I could think was this kid is never going to be able to move out of my house, hold a job, and function independently.  And yet the older she got, the better her grades got, the more independent she became, and the happier she became as I trusted her to make her own decisions.  And now here she is off at college, managing 100% of her shit on her own.

Obviously, she's not your kid, so there's no reason you should care.  But I say this for one simple reason:  she is what I am most proud of in my life.  Not because she is perfect or wonderful, but because she is not.  Because she made me stretch and learn more than anything else I had ever done in my life (again, including entire legal career).  Because it was hard as shit -- and I figured it out.  Yes, I screwed up -- daily, hourly -- along the way.  But she and I navigated it, and I played a part in helping grow an adult, despite serious doubts that that would ever happen at several points along the way. 

Part of what MMM talks about is the satisfaction of pushing yourself, of learning new things, of dealing with temporary discomfort for long-term growth.  I have gotten more of that from parenting my DD than from anything else I have ever done.  And that's why I wouldn't trade any of it, even if I could.

(And here I am patting myself on the back for being such an awsome parent, and now my formerly-easygoing DS is 13 and starting to act out in a completely different way, so now I get to go back to square 1 and learn an entire new set of parenting skills.  Oh joy. . . .)

*Talk about showering on your own?  I had to put her on the bathroom floor and play peek-a-boo around the shower wall; this is kinda mean, but sometimes I'd pop out and back on purpose to make the crying start and stop and start and stop.  Made me laugh every time.