Author Topic: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?  (Read 19686 times)

Mr. Green

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Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« on: August 10, 2019, 09:16:41 AM »
My wife and I have FIREd and are seriously considering starting a family. We're struggling with a couple things and I'm afraid our own personal observations of one family may be unreasonably tainting our views of the toddler stage.

We live with another family (close friends) and they have an 11, 9, and 1 year old. The one year old constantly either has to be touching/playing with a parent and every time he starts to whine about something (anything) they intervene. Is this just the way it is? I feel like they could be letting him work out his frustrations so he learns to redirect himself but I'm also not well versed in the development in babies.

My wife and I have spread our FIRE wings this year and we're really appreciating the joys of freedom. We spent 3 months touring the US and we'd consider doing this again, even with a child. However, the attached at the hip nature of every second that we see displayed to us daily makes us seriously question if we want kids. I understand that kids need attention but what we see is literally one pair of hands on every second the child is awake. I guess I'm hoping our friends simply choose to parent this way and not that it's an unavoidable fact of this stage of life.

I'm turning 36 in a month and my wife 34 in January so we're starting to feel the pressure of Father Time but we've also had our eyes opened by our recent travel that this is very much something we want to do more of.

Muatachian parents, what has your experience been? Is our secondhand view of this stage typical?

Christof

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2019, 10:06:18 AM »
It‘s not unavoidable, but you have to live with the consequences which is crying (initially) and complaining (later). Our experience is that the younger you are, the easier you deal with this conflict. Simplified I would say, easy when your in your twenties, requires work but is somewhat manageable in your thirties, hard in your forties, impossible in your fifties, unless you pay a ton of people to take care of problems

Adam Zapple

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2019, 10:32:00 AM »
I tell this to anyone thinking of starting a family, not because I am a downer, but because I remember wishing someone had told me :)... babies are a pain in the ass!  It's not that I didn't understand this on a basic level, because I did.  And of course everyone loves all the cool and cute stuff babies do, myself included.  Everyone tells you it is the greatest thing they've ever done, which is usually also true.  But it is a GRIND.  What I was not prepared for was the complete and absolute loss of self identity and freedom.  I also moved down the ladder one rung in order of importance to my wife, which I was prepared for but felt some loneliness as a result.

I was the primary caregiver for my first born and I'm not ashamed to admit I went through a mild depressive episode around month 9 or 10.  I was just mourning my past life of living for myself (and wife), coming and going as I pleased etc.  I had the added stress of work, as did my wife, which you do not...huge plus (probably).

You seem to be ahead of the curve in that you've been living with children daily so have some first hand knowledge of the daily struggles.  My first was easy, but more attached to us than our next two, who have always been more independent but also defiant.  I don't believe in hovering over your children, but I find it to be almost universally true that parents are hyper protective of their first one.  Your friends might have a particularly needy 3rd child or it is just their nature to hover and coddle.  I don't have all the answers and try not to judge others parenting. 

I'm also very in love with my children and wish the same for you and your family.  Just start mentally preparing for a trying year or two.  You may not have the same experience as me with all your free time due to FIRE so take that for what it's worth.  Good luck.

englishteacheralex

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2019, 10:48:10 AM »
I have a 5 year old and a 2.5 year old. My husband and I both work full time.

My standard line to people who don't have kids and ask about the experience is that it's both much harder and much more rewarding than I could have understood before the kids showed up.

Um, yeah. They pretty much need you every second. And that's from birth to around 3 years old. And then it eases off a little bit, but not that much. My five year old just learned how to take a shower by himself last week. Bliss. He can entertain himself in his room without us now, and when we hang out with friends he'll play pretty nicely with the other kids while we chat with the adults. That's been true since he was around 3-ish. But the 2.5 year old is still a disaster. Peak tantrum. Needs an incredible amount of supervision.

Every judgment you ever had about somebody's parenting is going to haunt you as you become a completely different parent from how you would have thought. You suddenly acquire an enormous amount of respect for most of the parents you've been watching all this time, as you are humbled by this squirming ball of incessant need.

There's no way to entirely predict what the experience will be like, but I think for most people it's an enormous adjustment, even with typical small children (no special needs, just regular-ass insane toddlers). I get myself through the hard parts by thinking of it like boot camp or medical school or anything that comes with a period of intense work and difficulty but is inherently worthwhile even at the time, and also has a big payoff at the end--you get to have a family of your own. To me, that was a big deal. I want the experience of having my own family, watching my children grow and change and mature, getting to have that relationship and also to feel like maybe the work I'm doing will make a difference; maybe my children will grow up to be positive forces in the world in some way. The rich source of meaning that is having children of my own has been keeping me going through this. Plus I know that the toddler part doesn't last forever.

I totally understand people who decide it's not for them, though. It's really freaking hard. I read a book called Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids that I recommend to anyone who is asking these sorts of questions. It brings up a lot of points.

One last thing--if you're around folks who have small children, that's already a huge advantage. Whenever somebody I know gets pregnant I'm inclined to make an effort to jump on the support train because I understand how hard it is. Keep cultivating those parent relationships if you make the decision to dive in.


Mr. Green

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2019, 10:57:04 AM »
It‘s not unavoidable, but you have to live with the consequences which is crying (initially) and complaining (later). Our experience is that the younger you are, the easier you deal with this conflict. Simplified I would say, easy when your in your twenties, requires work but is somewhat manageable in your thirties, hard in your forties, impossible in your fifties, unless you pay a ton of people to take care of problems
I imagine there's probably a difference between constantly being around a one year old that isn't mine and one that is, but I'm very much of the mind to let the child struggle (to some degree) because that is how we learn. In that respect, I have no problem with crying (fussing). If anything I get a small sense of satisfaction? from it because I know the baby is learning vs. if he's constantly redirected he can't figure out for himself cause and effect. I suppose it kinda feels like parenting-lite for us at this point. We know the difference between the different cries, and we babysit so we've changed diapers, bathed him, put him to sleep, basically all the physical aspects of having a kid, just none of the emotional weight of responsibility that comes from it being our child.

My wife and I joke about there probably not being two people on the planet more "awake" to the realities of children, prior to having them, than we are because of our close and continuing contact with a family with three kids, including one with special needs.

But we don't have other friends with very young children because of our ages and that not being typical for our peer group so this one experience is our lens to toddlerhood. I just don't know if it's a typical one or not.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 10:59:18 AM by Mr. Green »

gaja

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2019, 12:19:55 PM »
My main parenting goal is to raise independent adults. I have no problems listening to whining kids, if that is the best long term solution. If you are able to put on your socks, I will wait for you to do that, even if it takes me two hours. I am more stubborn than a 2 year old. But from age 0 to ~3 I did not have a minute where I wasn't aware of the kid. Especially age 1-2 is *hard*: they have started to move around, and they are testing limits and borders all the time. But their brains have not caught up, so there is no sense of danger. Look away for two seconds, and they are jumping off a cliff. Letting them struggle doesn't necessary mean they are learning, since there is a lot they are simply not ready to do. And again: this is from someone who values independence. I let my kids wear whatever they wanted in kindergarten from about age 3. By then, they were able to see the connection "swimming suit in winter time = cold", and able to remember that the next time and adapt. (I have a fantastic photo of the oldest ready for kindergarten in swimming suit on top of tights and a sweater, big woolen balaclava, and wool lined wellingtons. And a swim ring around the waist. All the patterns and colors did of course clash horribly. But it was quite well suited for the weather that day.)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 12:21:31 PM by gaja »

lookingforadelorean

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2019, 12:26:59 PM »
I think if you're doing it "right," then yeah, toddlers require you to be 100% hands on. I also think that your own child crying has a completely different effect on you than hearing someone else's child cry. It's just part of our wiring.

I am a SAHM to three children, ages 12, 10, and 7. I had my first when I was 38, and I agree that it's freaking hard. My sister just had her first at 44 (after years of trying through IVF), and my husband and I continually asked her and her husband, "Are you SURE you want to do this?" We'd talk to them on a Sunday after they'd been to brunch and a movie, after waking up at 11:00 . . . oh, the glory of that lifestyle. It is a serious dose of hard cold reality to not have your life be your own anymore. And we love our kids dearly! I homeschool, so I'm with them 24/7. I wouldn't change my decision to have children, but I also completely understand the choice not to.

I come from two narcissistic parents, and my goal has always been to break that cycle with my own kids. Choosing to have children means being there for them, like it or not. Even when you'd rather be sleeping. Even when you think your head will explode if they whine one more time. It's really no different from lots of other Mustachian endeavors in that it requires you to be extremely selective about how you spend your time and resources.

ender

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2019, 12:32:59 PM »
Hmm, I'm not sure you are really phrasing this question the best way. A lot of the answer here depends on whether you see kids as "needy" - if you phrase it like this, it likely means you don't enjoy that aspect of parenting because needy has a negative connocation. Some people do enjoy those aspects and in that case, "needy" isn't really the right word to frame the question.

As an example, a newborn is incredibly needy and needs food continuously. That is very "needy" but a lot of people love that aspect of parenting. My wife loves nursing our kiddo. She doesn't feel the "uggh, gotta nurse again" feeling for the most part even though he's needy.

It is kind of like people who love doing some things that other people see as "work." It's a matter of perspective.

Christof

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year o
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2019, 01:13:42 PM »
I imagine there's probably a difference between constantly being around a one year old that isn't mine and one that is, but I'm very much of the mind to let the child struggle (to some degree) because that is how we learn. In that respect, I have no problem with crying (fussing).

There is a difference. There is nothing wrong with letting a kid struggle. It’s good for them and we do the same. However, in reality it‘s just a lot harder to do than one might imagine. Just like you recognize the voice of a person, you will learn to recognize the crying, complaining and whining of your child in a larger group. And you will recognize behavior in the evening that has an impact on how your kid behaves the next day, or rather misbehaves...

It‘s sill worth it though, just don‘t expect your experience to be different from everyone else’s.

Mr. Green

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2019, 01:20:09 PM »
Hmm, I'm not sure you are really phrasing this question the best way. A lot of the answer here depends on whether you see kids as "needy" - if you phrase it like this, it likely means you don't enjoy that aspect of parenting because needy has a negative connocation. Some people do enjoy those aspects and in that case, "needy" isn't really the right word to frame the question.

As an example, a newborn is incredibly needy and needs food continuously. That is very "needy" but a lot of people love that aspect of parenting. My wife loves nursing our kiddo. She doesn't feel the "uggh, gotta nurse again" feeling for the most part even though he's needy.

It is kind of like people who love doing some things that other people see as "work." It's a matter of perspective.
I may not be wording the question correctly. I was having a hard time with the specificity. I definitely understand that you can't leave a 1 year old unsupervised in an unsafe environment. I guess what I'm more thinking of is whether people have solutions where a one year old can be left while you pee and there's nothing there they can hurt themselves with vs. peeing means you feel compelled to hand the child off to another adult. And with respect to struggling I was thinking along the lines of the baby is trying unsuccessfully to pull himself up or open a drawer and can't and instead of allowing him to struggle with it there is constant redirection or he'll fuss and our friends I guess don't want him to fuss? But then that means one of them is physically within 2 feet of him every waking second. I guess that's the granularity I was trying to understand better if that's typical.

I guess in my brain Im imagining that a 1 year old should be able to have an area where it can play for a couple minutes at a time (with appropriate safety measures) without an adult hovering overhead. Is that unrealistic?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 01:26:12 PM by Mr. Green »

Cassie

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2019, 01:29:08 PM »
If you have a 1 year old they go to the bathroom with you. I didn’t pee alone for years:)).  It only takes a instant for them to get into things. They cannot entertain themselves at that age and follow you everywhere.   I had all 3 of my kids by 25 so was young enough to be up for the challenge.

Cassie

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2019, 01:30:34 PM »
You can use a playpen but the second the child can’t see you it will start screaming.

gaja

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2019, 01:33:08 PM »
I guess in my brain Im imagining that a 1 year old should be able to have an area where it can play for a couple minutes at a time (with appropriate safety measures) without an adult hovering overhead. Is that unrealistic?

You could put them in a playpen with only soft toys. But otherwise: totally unrealistic.

I would let them struggle with drawers and pulling themselves up. That won't hurt them, and it might let them learn something. But I would not take my eyes of a 1 year old. Peeing and showering can be done in groups.

Christof

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2019, 01:36:39 PM »
I guess in my brain Im imagining that a 1 year old should be able to have an area where it can play for a couple minutes at a time (with appropriate safety measures) without an adult hovering overhead. Is that unrealistic?

In the US, my impression is, yes, that is unrealistic. In Germany, no, why should you need to supervise a one year old all the time. It has nothing to do with your child but only society’s perception on what is normal.

Cassie

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2019, 01:37:10 PM »
Kids have been injured or killed when pulling or climbing on dressers which can fall over.

Christof

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2019, 01:44:12 PM »
Exactly. Many families have been killed by eating fast food, many kids by other’s driving in an SUV. It‘s a matter of what is prioritized, and the US seems to value “no risk” very high, other countries don’t. And that is the rules you have to follow.

ToTheMoon

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2019, 01:50:15 PM »
It is also possible that your friends are more on top of their little one simply because of your presence. People are always judging parents, and if they feel any pressure (intended or not) they may be being hyper-vigilant when you are around so that their child does not "bother" you.

FWIW - I was a stay at home parent for many years with a spouse who worked away for two weeks at a time.  I was fine to leave them (at that age) in their crib or play yard thingy for a short time in order to use the bathroom or sneak a quick shower. They are almost 8 & 10 now, and seem well adjusted enough :D (I am in Canada)

Cassie

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2019, 01:50:54 PM »
If you cannot supervise you put them in a playpen and then they are safe.  It doesn’t have to be all or nothing.

gaja

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2019, 01:52:00 PM »
I guess in my brain Im imagining that a 1 year old should be able to have an area where it can play for a couple minutes at a time (with appropriate safety measures) without an adult hovering overhead. Is that unrealistic?

In the US, my impression is, yes, that is unrealistic. In Germany, no, why should you need to supervise a one year old all the time. It has nothing to do with your child but only society’s perception on what is normal.

I might agree with you at age 3-4. Maybe down to 2.5. Ours were playing by themselves at the playground across the street by that age (Norway, low traffic, knew all the neighbours). But everyone needs to look after a 1-2 year old. They are crazy.

We put a bell (nice silver bracelet) on our youngest when she was around 18 months. If you turned your back on her for a second, she was gone. She was usually stopped by a neighbour, but one time she was walked back by a stranger who politely asked if we knew who this kid belonged to. He lived across the main road, so we are really lucky she wasn't hit by a car. Another time she climbed on top of the balcony and jumped down almost 10 feet (nothing broken, no concussion). The older was not that adventure seeking, but we have reminded her a couple of times about when she decided to decorate our shiny new-to-us car with a rock. All the way around, except for the one side where I was standing.

Christof

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2019, 02:03:13 PM »
There is a huge difference between watching them all the time, and that really means every second, or watching them most of the time and listening or relying on neighbors for the rest, especially in a closed of area.Of course you adjust your behavior to the adventurousness of your kid.

Our kid was kid 18 months when he was carrying around IKEA plastic furniture down the staircase to rearrange our home, but he also was very careful and wouldn‘t (and still doesn’t at age six) jump from hights.

Adam Zapple

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2019, 02:08:53 PM »
A bedroom or playroom where you've assessed the danger works as a playpen too.  I leave my kids alone while I shower etc.  My third never used a playpen but he had the older ones to keep an eye on him.  Now that he's two he plays alone quite often but he's not mischievous... happy to play with his cars and trucks.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 02:10:43 PM by Adam Zapple »

englishteacheralex

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2019, 02:14:13 PM »
My God the judgment you get when you have kids. If I'm being honest, so many of the things I do as a parent are purely to avoid judgment by other people. In my opinion the judgment might be the worst part about having kids.

My theory is that now that having kids is optional--which it hasn't been for most of history--it has opened the door to a barrage of criticism. People who haven't "been there" don't understand how hard it is, how it's not that you're a bad parent, it's that you have a semi-feral creature running around, keeping your heart as a hostage, and it has a mind of its own and you're doing the best you can to prevent it from doing the very thing it wants more than anything, which is to kill itself in the most tragic way imaginable. Every time you turn around the thing is trying to stab itself or run in front of a moving vehicle or swallow a Tide pod. And plenty of people have an opinion about this, and very very few people offer any help with it except to watch and either silently or vocally tell you how they'd do things differently. 

Can you leave a baby while you go pee? Yep! They have exer-saucers for that, and playpens, and even just their crib or high chair works in a pinch. Or they can just come in the bathroom with you and avoid a screaming meltdown and that works fine, too. Showering I could never do unless they were taking a nap...too unavailable. You can put 'em in a bumbo in the tub while you shower if you have to, but mostly I like my shower to be a relaxed experience, and that wouldn't be.

Some parents are more "hands on" than others, but some of the "hands on"-ness comes from all the judgment we feel, especially in public. It feels like nobody trusts that parents are doing their best anymore--there's always this feeling that if we were more on top of things and not "on our phones all the time" our kid wouldn't be skinning its knee or falling off the playground or running over and stealing a toy from the other kid. When the reality is that kids breaking shit and being horrible to each other is just the reality of childhood.


Hula Hoop

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2019, 02:16:58 PM »
I guess in my brain Im imagining that a 1 year old should be able to have an area where it can play for a couple minutes at a time (with appropriate safety measures) without an adult hovering overhead. Is that unrealistic?

In the US, my impression is, yes, that is unrealistic. In Germany, no, why should you need to supervise a one year old all the time. It has nothing to do with your child but only society’s perception on what is normal.

I used the think like you when I only had my older kid as she was a "normal" child who was relatively risk averse.  At around 1 I could rely on her not to do anything crazy while a took a couple of minutes to pee.  Enter kid #2 who was the polar opposite.  I remember finding her one day in the kitchen - she'd climbed up on the kitchen counter and was just reaching for some knives in a butcher block on a high shelf.  Another time, when she was around 2 she was playing with a bunch of balloons at a restaurant while I ate pizza with friends.  All 4 of our kids were in the next room playing with the balloons left over from a wedding and we could see them.  I stuffed some pizza into my face and took a swig of wine and looked over and kid #2 was gone.  I went into the room and could not find her.  Looked all around the room and finally found a tiny door in one corner leading to the bathroom.  She was not in the bathroom but there was another tiny door that led out into a courtyard.  She wasn't there either but there was a door off the courtyard that led to a busy road.  I went outside and looked across the road and saw a tiny figure running towards some cows on the other side of the road. 

When you have a kid like my second one you'll never again be judgmental about parents being paranoid about safety.  It's not an American thing or a Germany thing  - just a matter of the kind of child you have.

Englishteacheralex - yes the judgment is horrible.  Everyone seems to have an opinion even though it's none of their business.  However, here in Italy, it's not as bad as in other countries.  People seriously love kids here and celebrate them. The worst I've had is old people on buses telling me my kid should wear socks.  Outside Italy I've had things like people getting angry at my 5 year old for talking to me on a plane - yes just talking in a regular voice on a daytime flight.  WTF? Whenever I leave Italy, I feel like the judgment is non stop and a lot of people hate kids, which is strange as they once were kids.

MrGreen - it seems odd to make a monumental decision like this based on how "needy" a one year old is.  Babies and toddlers (and older kids) make huge demands on their parents.  Your life will revolve around them and their needs.  If that's not something you're prepared for them parenthood probably isn't for you.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 02:26:14 PM by Hula Hoop »

ysette9

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2019, 02:30:23 PM »
It depends a lot on the kid you get and to a lesser extent, how you choose to parent. From my personal experience I’d say the part of physically touching the kid all the time is unusual. My first was a needy kid who preferred me to everyone else. My husband was an acceptable second choice but no one else would do. She wanted to be near me, play in the same room as me, but didn’t need to be touching me. My second is much more independent, and while she certainly likes me, she is a busy women with things to do, and doesn’t want to cuddle as much as I would like.

As others have mentioned, you’ll learn your kid’s voice to recognize the difference between whining and true need, and adjust your behavior accordingly. But yes, the first year is incredibly tough. It is also the most rewarding thing. The highs in life are higher and the lows are lower. Make of that what you wish.

Christof

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year old
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2019, 02:37:01 PM »
That’s what I’m saying. Your behavior as as a parent should be driven by your kids behavior and personality, not by some generic society’s expectations. My kid is risk averse, but his six year old friend jumps from heights that I wouldn’t jump from (like two meters). And yes, kids are kids, be it food (I eat whatever is on the ground, but if there is parsley on my plate I’ll make a tantrum), or the way they talk (I still remember when my dad forced me to be silent for five minutes at the age of five).

Hula Hoop

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year old
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2019, 02:40:22 PM »
That’s what I’m saying. Your behavior as as a parent should be driven by your kids behavior and personality, not by some generic society’s expectations. My kid is risk averse, but his six year old friend jumps from heights that I wouldn’t jump from (like two meters). And yes, kids are kids, be it food (I eat whatever is on the ground, but if there is parsley on my plate I’ll make a tantrum), or the way they talk (I still remember when my dad forced me to be silent for five minutes at the age of five).

I think that's how parents generally parent their kids no matter where they live be it the US, Germany or anywhere else.  I'm American and would have parented my two kids this way whether they'd grown up in the US or anywhere else.  Not sure where in the US you lived with your children and got the impression that parents parent their kids by 'generic societal expectations' rather than common sense?  Obviously, the US is a very big, diverse country.  Can you elaborate?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 02:41:54 PM by Hula Hoop »

Christof

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2019, 02:55:44 PM »
I didn’t live with my kids in the US, but I have friends there, and we obviously talk a lot, even when we don‘t agree on everything ... Rural Oregon, Chicago, Detroit and Philadelphia if that makes a difference. I’m in the US between two and four weeks per year.

gaja

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year old
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2019, 02:56:12 PM »
That’s what I’m saying. Your behavior as as a parent should be driven by your kids behavior and personality, not by some generic society’s expectations. My kid is risk averse, but his six year old friend jumps from heights that I wouldn’t jump from (like two meters). And yes, kids are kids, be it food (I eat whatever is on the ground, but if there is parsley on my plate I’ll make a tantrum), or the way they talk (I still remember when my dad forced me to be silent for five minutes at the age of five).

I think that's how parents generally parent their kids no matter where they live be it the US, Germany or anywhere else.  I'm American and would have parented my two kids this way whether they'd grown up in the US or anywhere else.  Not sure where in the US you lived with your children and got the impression that parents parent their kids by 'generic societal expectations' rather than common sense?  Obviously, the US is a very big, diverse country.  Can you elaborate?

Stuff like this makes a certain impression about the US (don't know how good these sources are, but similar stories pop up every so often):
https://www.parents.com/toddlers-preschoolers/everything-kids/mom-arrested-for-leaving-8-and-9-year-olds-home-alone-for-less/
http://www.fox26houston.com/news/schools-new-policy-bans-parents-from-walking-children-to-school

Mr. Green

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2019, 03:26:41 PM »
I really appreciate all the responses. My specific concern has been harder to articulate than I anticipated.

I hope I wasn't coming across as judging the way my friends parent. I think they do a phenomenal job with their kids. Though, I don't think they parent in any particular way because we might judge them. We've all lived together for 2 years and known each other for 15. Because they are such great parents (and friends), my observation of how they're raising their toddler feels a bit like "this is just how raising a toddler is." We have only one other set of friends with a toddler and we see them a few times a year.

My wife and I are just struggling through a moment when this view feels particularly distressing. We've only really begun maximizing the freedom that FIRE provides in this past year. The way in which we traveled around the US is almost the antithesis of caring for a toddler. We boonbocked, made unplanned detours, made spontaneous decisions, and really just felt completely untethered the entire time we were on the road. After spending 13 years in an unhappy career, it was everything I dreamed financial independence would be.

However, we've been on the "start a family" fence for a couple years now. There was a miscarriage a couple years ago and minor complications afterward (that don't impact future conception). So we understand that trying does not equal pregnancy now. We were basically on board with starting to try again when we got back from our trip, but suddenly being back in an environment where we're directly observing what raising a toddler looks like has us second guessing ourselves pretty hard.

So I thought, maybe it doesn't really have to look like this and it sounds like based on some of the comments here, it doesn't (with caveats). I have no problem not following societal norms. I had to take a psych profile for my old career and one of my most dominant traits was anti-socialness in that regard. As an engineer, I'm always focused on efficiency and improving how something is done so when I see my friends so completely tied to their 1 year old (one adult within 3 feet every waking second, literally) I can't help but question if it has to be that way. Which led me to asking the question here, because to me that feels like prison. I understand it's only a phase, but I think part of the doubt we're working through is whether we want to go from absolute freedom to (what feels like) absolute imprisonment, having only had a brief taste of that full freedom. Of course there's certainly the consideration that the younger we have kids, they younger we'll be when they're basically self-directing (teenagers) and then out of the house. But we're already old enough that we may not be able to do some of the things in our 50's that we can do now. So we land back on the question of, "maybe we should wait one more year?" On the other side of that coin are the increased risks associated with waiting. I have Tourettes Syndrome, which is something that has a strong chance of being passed to a child, and like many of the other risks, increases with age. Though, we're not against adopting and I don't think either of us would be absolutely destroyed if things didn't work out for us and we just ended up with no children.

It's been a lot to suddenly reconsider. Please keep the responses coming, and thank you for your input.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 03:35:02 PM by Mr. Green »

jeninco

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2019, 03:47:35 PM »
I'd say it varies based on the kid. I was at a soccer game a few days ago with a 6-9 month old in a playpen while both of her parents were playing. I was making smiley faces at her, but she was basically doing great -- rolling over, chewing on her stuffed monkey, grabbing at stuff in the playpen, making faces at me.  Either of my kids would've been screaming after 10 minutes of that.

I had an enlightening moment at a zoo, watching a gorilla mom and baby, which was that baby primates generally seem to like being in contact with their parents. There are tools, like slings and wraps, that you can use to keep them in contact with you (and which make it much, much easier to go about doing your own stuff) , but it's likely that a child will want lots of physical contact (and lots of attention) for a number of years. We liked reading The Scientist in the Crib for actual research-based information about child development.

The other thing to be aware of is that what's developmentally appropriate depends on your kid, not your convenience. So "teach them to endure hardship" is, I'm sorry, complete bullshit when you're talking about a 1-year old. What you're going to teach the kid is that you, and adults in general, can't be relied on to meet their needs when they do their best to communicate them to you. Seriously, read some science-based research on child development. Teach you kids to do what's hard (and what's right) by modeling that and doing it with them.

cloudsail

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2019, 04:24:13 PM »
If you value your freedom at all, think long and hard before signing up for an 18-year prison term.

Mr. Green

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2019, 05:22:03 PM »
The other thing to be aware of is that what's developmentally appropriate depends on your kid, not your convenience. So "teach them to endure hardship" is, I'm sorry, complete bullshit when you're talking about a 1-year old. What you're going to teach the kid is that you, and adults in general, can't be relied on to meet their needs when they do their best to communicate them to you. Seriously, read some science-based research on child development. Teach you kids to do what's hard (and what's right) by modeling that and doing it with them.
I think maybe the interpretation of my comment on struggle is more serious than I intended. The examples I was thinking of we're things like fussing/getting upset over not being able to lift a container full of toys, or running something into a wall and being upset because the thing stopped moving. Constantly redirecting the child in those situations it's becomes hands on every 10 seconds. That's what I observe anyway. It is my hope that there's nothing wrong with allowing that kid to not be able to pick up 10 pounds worth of toys, getting frustrated, and moving on from that to the next thing. I'm sure this would involve more fussing but does not hold the parent as much of a hostage because you're not redirecting every 10 seconds. That's the kind of stuff I was thinking about.

CindyBS

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2019, 07:00:42 PM »
A few thoughts:

1) I have 2 kids, now teens.  Child 1 was a runner - from age 1-2, if you set him down or he was wasn't secured by gates, baby devices, etc. - he was running away.  This made places without gates a nightmare.  Child 2 was a clinger - stuck to me all the time.  He needed a lot of reassurance, was very hesitant/shy, is still very reserved with outsiders.  They are both relatively well adjusted people.  I could see you thinking the same things about my clinger you are about this family you mention.  Some kids just need more physical support/touch.

2)  I am mid-40's now.  At least for me (who is in moderate physical shape) I felt a noticeable decline in my physical abilities and energy levels from 38-44ish.  For me, it would have so much more difficult to have a baby with all the sleepless nights at 42 than at 38. 

3) Along the same lines - think about the grandparent issue as well.  I think people who wait to have kids overly focus on maximizing their freedom and time without their kids, without a thought on what kind of grandparent they will be.  If you are 40 and have a kid, and your kid doesn't have a kid until age 40 - you will be 80 when the grandkids come.  Even if your kid has a kid at 25 - you will be 65 when the grandkids start coming, in your 70's when they are rough and tumble school aged.  What sort of physical endurance will you have?  How involved will you be in their lives?  I had my kids in my late 20's, my sister had her last kid at 41.  My parents have a much different grandparent relationship with her youngest than they did with my kids - solely because they are not physically able to do the things they could do 10+ years ago. 

Also - what about your parents and parents-in-laws?  Do they want to see your kid(s) graduate high school?  Be active with them or just be the person sitting in the chair in the corner at holidays?  Maybe that is harsh, but that tends to be the reality when grandma is 87 and grandchild is 6.
 
I am biased towards my own experience, but my vote would be to have kids sooner rather than later if you are going to do it.

Cassie

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2019, 07:45:33 PM »
You may never be a grandparent. I had 3 kids by 25 and at 65 am not a grandparent. I see that as a non issue.

Mr. Green

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2019, 08:41:00 PM »
A few thoughts:

1) I have 2 kids, now teens.  Child 1 was a runner - from age 1-2, if you set him down or he was wasn't secured by gates, baby devices, etc. - he was running away.  This made places without gates a nightmare.  Child 2 was a clinger - stuck to me all the time.  He needed a lot of reassurance, was very hesitant/shy, is still very reserved with outsiders.  They are both relatively well adjusted people.  I could see you thinking the same things about my clinger you are about this family you mention.  Some kids just need more physical support/touch.

2)  I am mid-40's now.  At least for me (who is in moderate physical shape) I felt a noticeable decline in my physical abilities and energy levels from 38-44ish.  For me, it would have so much more difficult to have a baby with all the sleepless nights at 42 than at 38. 

3) Along the same lines - think about the grandparent issue as well.  I think people who wait to have kids overly focus on maximizing their freedom and time without their kids, without a thought on what kind of grandparent they will be.  If you are 40 and have a kid, and your kid doesn't have a kid until age 40 - you will be 80 when the grandkids come.  Even if your kid has a kid at 25 - you will be 65 when the grandkids start coming, in your 70's when they are rough and tumble school aged.  What sort of physical endurance will you have?  How involved will you be in their lives?  I had my kids in my late 20's, my sister had her last kid at 41.  My parents have a much different grandparent relationship with her youngest than they did with my kids - solely because they are not physically able to do the things they could do 10+ years ago. 

Also - what about your parents and parents-in-laws?  Do they want to see your kid(s) graduate high school?  Be active with them or just be the person sitting in the chair in the corner at holidays?  Maybe that is harsh, but that tends to be the reality when grandma is 87 and grandchild is 6.
 
I am biased towards my own experience, but my vote would be to have kids sooner rather than later if you are going to do it.
Alas, if we could only have our cake and eat it too. There are no easy answers to these questions. My wife's parents have 4 grandkids already so they're very laid back about the prospect of more grandkids. They also all had kids young. My wife's parents are only in their mid-50s now. But my poor mom. At 63, she wants a grandkid yesterday, and my only sibling has already declared adamantly that she will never have kids. I hate to think my mom might not end up with any but that is not a reason to have a child.

I haven't really thought much about when I would be a grandparent. I can hope that I'll be in great shape at that age thanks to 30-40 years of retirement but I've seen enough people age to know that it can be a crapshoot.

I try to weigh those things but it's hard to know how much you'd regret what you don't get have. Travelling around the US was just mind-blowing. I can confidently say it was the best three months of my life and I bet my wife will say the same. Would I regret not taking the chance to do it a little more thoroughly if later in life I wasn't able to travel like that? I'm pretty confident I would. But then if we wait another year or two for kids and end up not getting pregnant again how far would we chase that? Of course there's no way to know if age would be the causing factor there but there'd always be the nagging thought. Would we regret that? I honestly don't know. I'm loving freedom so immensely that it's hard to imagine feeling bad about that choice, but I also understand the draw of a family. It's nice to think about having children who would love you unconditionally and that you would share a common bond with no matter what. But neither of us desire children so much that we aren't confounded by the questions in front of us.

cloudsail

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2019, 09:39:34 PM »
All kidding aside, I think you and your wife have to answer the profound questions of do you really want children? How much do you want them? And with the realization that your priorities may change down the road. I have known perfectly happy childless people who never regretted for one second the choice that they made. I have also known people who did regret choosing not to have kids, when they could no longer have any. I have known people who changed their minds in their forties and ended up having a baby late in life. I also know people who clearly aren't that thrilled about raising kids but still intend to do it sooner rather than later because they don't want to have regrets.

It's a tough decision for sure. Best of luck to you.

Scotland2016

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2019, 10:13:49 PM »
Ugh, 12 months to 24 months was difficult for me. Loved the baby stage and love 2+. But when he was 18 months old, I started looking at daycares! I wouldn't make your decision to have children based on observing this one particularly tough stage.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year old
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2019, 03:33:43 AM »
That’s what I’m saying. Your behavior as as a parent should be driven by your kids behavior and personality, not by some generic society’s expectations. My kid is risk averse, but his six year old friend jumps from heights that I wouldn’t jump from (like two meters). And yes, kids are kids, be it food (I eat whatever is on the ground, but if there is parsley on my plate I’ll make a tantrum), or the way they talk (I still remember when my dad forced me to be silent for five minutes at the age of five).

I think that's how parents generally parent their kids no matter where they live be it the US, Germany or anywhere else.  I'm American and would have parented my two kids this way whether they'd grown up in the US or anywhere else.  Not sure where in the US you lived with your children and got the impression that parents parent their kids by 'generic societal expectations' rather than common sense?  Obviously, the US is a very big, diverse country.  Can you elaborate?

Stuff like this makes a certain impression about the US (don't know how good these sources are, but similar stories pop up every so often):
https://www.parents.com/toddlers-preschoolers/everything-kids/mom-arrested-for-leaving-8-and-9-year-olds-home-alone-for-less/
http://www.fox26houston.com/news/schools-new-policy-bans-parents-from-walking-children-to-school

This is the problem with foreigners judging/stereotyping the US through the media without living there.  You speak English so you can read this and it's widely reported elsewhere as it confirms stereotypes. These are extreme cases in a country of 320+ million people that were heavily criticized in the media.  This does not reflect how average Americans actually parent.

I could point you to similar controversies here in italy but news reports were in Italian. So the controversies were not reported outside Italy.  One example is the banning of middle school kids (age 11-14) from going to school without a parent after a child in Sicily was killed on the way to school.  The education minister at the time said something along the lines of "why can't the grandparents take the kids to school? Us grandparents love doing things for our grandchildren".  Tons of anger and controversy about this but no reporting internationally.  Also it's illegal here in italy to leave your kids at home alone until they are 14.  Ridiculous IMO.

BeanCounter

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2019, 06:06:04 AM »
I’m a 41 yo mom to two children aged 10 and 7. Today my DH and I will drop them off for their first week of overnight camp. It’s the first time they’ve ever been away from both of us for a whole week.
Some of the best parenting advice I got was “just when you think you can’t take a phase or stage they are in any longer it changes, and just when you think you are in a great spot with them, it changes”.
I kept working while they were toddlers because going to work was easier! That phase your friends child is in, is exhausting. You’re constantly moving. Now my kids are school aged and I’m planning to finally FIRE so I can stay home with them. I often feel sad because I realize my time with my ten year old is likely half over. I really enjoy being with them now. It does go by fast.
The biggest disadvantage I can see that you all would need to consider is that kids are limiting. Travel is not as easy. For many years you are tied to a nap schedule (my kids need their sleep or life becomes unbearable for everybody). You can’t just go sit and drink on an outdoor patio for extended periods of time. etc. I’m not going to lie, sometimes the monotony of their schedule, and their inability to be flexible has gotten to me. We are just starting to move out of this phase. We’ve taken two big trips in the last two years that were lots of fun, nobody cried, everyone enjoyed something. Prior to that we really could only manage renting a beach house for a week.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 06:07:35 AM by BeanCounter »

marion10

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2019, 08:37:11 AM »
The only young children that are not “needy” are those who have some kind of attachment disorder- like children who are neglected in an orphanage or severely autistic. This is a survival mechanism- if you don’t keep your parent close by you are gong to get eaten by a wolf or bear.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 08:42:21 AM by marion10 »

Hula Hoop

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2019, 11:42:58 AM »
The only young children that are not “needy” are those who have some kind of attachment disorder- like children who are neglected in an orphanage or severely autistic. This is a survival mechanism- if you don’t keep your parent close by you are gong to get eaten by a wolf or bear.

I agree - children, by definition, are "needy". 

Mr Green - how about having just one child?  To me that would be kind of a compromise as just  having one would be less of a commitment and the difficult phase would be over more quickly.  We recently sent our older one to camp for a week and just dealing with the younger one was like a holiday for us.  I also have couple friends where one wanted kids and one didn't and they compromised on just having one and they are both very happy.

englishteacheralex

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2019, 11:48:05 AM »
After having had two of my own, I do have a newfound understanding for the "one and done" crew. Best of both worlds. Way easier and cheaper to find a babysitter...if you have nice friends/family, it's an easier "ask" to have somebody come watch the kid for free (if you have that kind of relationship).

We just had to give our firstborn a sibling...oh well they're cute when they play together.

jeninco

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2019, 12:23:23 PM »
The other thing to be aware of is that what's developmentally appropriate depends on your kid, not your convenience. So "teach them to endure hardship" is, I'm sorry, complete bullshit when you're talking about a 1-year old. What you're going to teach the kid is that you, and adults in general, can't be relied on to meet their needs when they do their best to communicate them to you. Seriously, read some science-based research on child development. Teach you kids to do what's hard (and what's right) by modeling that and doing it with them.
I think maybe the interpretation of my comment on struggle is more serious than I intended. The examples I was thinking of we're things like fussing/getting upset over not being able to lift a container full of toys, or running something into a wall and being upset because the thing stopped moving. Constantly redirecting the child in those situations it's becomes hands on every 10 seconds. That's what I observe anyway. It is my hope that there's nothing wrong with allowing that kid to not be able to pick up 10 pounds worth of toys, getting frustrated, and moving on from that to the next thing. I'm sure this would involve more fussing but does not hold the parent as much of a hostage because you're not redirecting every 10 seconds. That's the kind of stuff I was thinking about.

This is probably still a "your kid(s) may vary" situation. In an ideal world, you might talk this situation through with a kid, i.e. "I wonder if that basket is easier to lift when it's empty .... I wonder if you can lift it when it has only one toy in it ... " etc. Because you're trying to teach them to think through possible solutions to their own problems. The, er, "problem" here is that being able to solve one's own problems is a teachable skill, but it takes a while to teach it. I always recommend How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk, which is big on empowering your kid(s) to find ways to solve their own problems as much as possible, rather then preemptively stepping in.

However, with a 1-year old, the best you can probably do is teach the kid baby sign language (because one of the major frustrations of being that age is having intentions and wishes and not being able to communicate them) and hoping you have a relatively self-entertaining kid. Or hiring help.  If you have a high-needs, high-energy, high-engagement child, there's no shame in hiring a college student for some number of hours/week to take the kid somewhere and play with her/him. Or finding a good preschool!

BeanCounter also has an important point, which is as much as any particular phase drives you crazy, it won't last. (Same for phases you're enjoying, of course.) If you have a neurotypical kid, it'll be just about when you come up with and execute the most brilliant parenting response that they'll move on to the next thing.

FWIW, I am in my early 50's, and have an 18 YO and a 15 YO.

Plugging Along

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2019, 12:29:31 PM »
Quote
I guess in my brain Im imagining that a 1 year old should be able to have an area where it can play for a couple minutes at a time (with appropriate safety measures) without an adult hovering overhead. Is that unrealistic?

Of course you can, you said with the appropriate safety measure.  When they are babies and toddlers, they can be left alone.  They may fuss or cry or shriek as if they are being murder, but if you are certain they are safe, then being left along for a bit will not cause long term harm

What you described about your friends, its also very normal when they hit about 2 they go through a separation anxiety.  This is a normal developmental piece where they realize that the world is a much bigger place than their immediately area and they don't want to be left alone.  That doesn't mean you have to be tied at the hip.  It means you have to find ways to teach your kids that its okay that you are out of the room for a bit as you will always come back.   Each kid is different.

My thought on being a parent is that you have to remember that when a baby is brought into this world they know NOTHING.  The don't know how to eat very well, they don't know how to sleep or sooth themselves, they can't even pass gas without help, they can't do their basic needs with out parents providing, protecting and teaching them everything.  This doesn't stop as a baby.

Quote
I think maybe the interpretation of my comment on struggle is more serious than I intended. The examples I was thinking of we're things like fussing/getting upset over not being able to lift a container full of toys, or running something into a wall and being upset because the thing stopped moving. Constantly redirecting the child in those situations it's becomes hands on every 10 seconds. That's what I observe anyway. It is my hope that there's nothing wrong with allowing that kid to not be able to pick up 10 pounds worth of toys, getting frustrated, and moving on from that to the next thing. I'm sure this would involve more fussing but does not hold the parent as much of a hostage because you're not redirecting every 10 seconds. That's the kind of stuff I was thinking about.

 As they become toddlers, they need to learn everything.  I believe in natural consequences when possible. However, one has to remember that the toddler doesn't understand that it is a natural consequence.  So just letting the toddler struggle with a 10lb box and letting him get frustrated doesn't do anything, cause he doesn't understand why he can't lift the box.  He needs to be TAUGHT the natural consequence.   For us, that would have meant we would have allowed our toddler to try to lift the 10lb box, when she couldn't we would then explain it's very heavy and give her some options on what she can do.  It's tricky at this age, if they can't communicate very well.  You can't think about it as being hostage, but you are there to redirect and teach.  That can be every 10 seconds.    We pretty lucky, we had early communicators and they both seemed to learn very quickly so we didn't have to tell them something so many times.  We also worked hard with them to teach them the appropriate behavior which took longer but paid off.  I think its really dependant on the child though. 

I can tell you that each phase is different.  The baby/toddler phase is all about survival, yours and theirs.  Then it gets hard when you start worrying about schools and their future, then as school agers if they are making friends and learning, then as tween.  OMG I don't even want to talk about that.  It's different at each stage.

My observations are parents who seems to adjust better are those that understand that they no longer have the life they did pre-kids.  They will no longer mourn the lost of freedom (which I did), and embrace the new life.  It just a different path.  They realize that the well being of children and family are more important than the individual dreams they had.  They can't just try and fit in the kids into the life they had prior.  They need to figure out the new life which include these being they brought into the world and are responsible for.

I will give examples of some of our biggest changes in life:
Career - We were both high flying career climbers prior to kids.   I have had to turn down or even demote myself into jobs that I don't enjoy as much to be able to have the time I want with the kids.  I gave up more fulfillment at work and $  to gain a more fulfilling life with my family.  My spouse would travel all the time, now, he only looks at jobs that have minimal travel and flexible hours.    We could have made so much more money, but the family is more important.  We are lucky we can have the work life balance we want/   Not a big deal if you are retired. 

Personal time - there is hardly any for ourselves.  I spend my free time volunteering 2-3 times a week with my kids activities.  The evenings are spent with the kids.  We did find it important to reserve time for ourselves, but we had to really work at finding a kid 'free' time as a couple, we did lunches during work, and would plan a date night about once a month.  We also went out with friend once a month when they were little.  Now, we can do it more frequently because the kids can stay at home along. (yeah)

Activities - our leisure activities revolve around the kids.  You will find you friend other parents so you can have some social time.   

Travel - we changed the type of travel we do.  No more can we just go anytime we want on a seat sale.  We have to go during the most expensive times of the year (summer, xmas, spring break) where every where is crowded.    We loved international travel before, but now it's done in much safer, cleaner kid friendly way = $$$$. 

My kids are not 10 & 13, and I would go back to when they were toddlers in a moment.  It felt like we would never get out of those tough times, and I know we still have many ahead, but I wouldn't trade them for anything.  The days were really long but the years are certainly short.

cloudsail

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2019, 12:46:21 PM »
I can tell you a little bit about our experiences traveling with children, since this is an aspect that you may not be that familiar with compared to the daily life that you are involved in. With the caveat of course that all children are different.

We traveled extensively with our children ever since infancy with many 10+ hour flights, mostly because during those years we had several ill or dying relatives abroad.

1. Infant years: Plane and car rides are pretty easy. They basically just sleep and nurse. On the plane you can sit by the bulkhead and the baby will sleep in a bassinet. At your destination you will often have to change and nurse, and will not always be able to find private places to do so. You will also have to carry around a LOT of stuff. You will however be mostly free to visit museums and nice restaurants and such, as long as they don't forbid babies. (I did once almost get kicked out of a high tea place for nursing my baby there, even though I was wearing a cover.)

2. Toddler years: Plane and car rides will be tougher. If you thought economy seats were uncomfortable, imagine now carrying a child in your lap the whole way. Who will not want to sit still. I once spend almost the entirety of a 2 hour flight walking up and down the aisle with my son. At your destination, your child may or may not want to sit in their stroller. I never had a problem with mine, but I've seen parents pushing an empty stroller while carrying their fussy toddler on their hip. Also lots of places are not stroller friendly. Your child will be potty trained but prone to accidents, and finding a clean bathroom for them to use can be challenging. You'll continue to carry around a ton of stuff.

3. School years: No more giant diaper bag! More complaining though. Also now bound by school schedules, unless you homeschool, but you'll still have to concern yourself with making sure they are progressing academically.

4. All ages: Children get sick more easily when they are exposed to new environments and when their schedules are disrupted. Illness is one of my top concerns when we travel. Anyone who has cared for a sick child can tell you that it is miserable. You will also not have access to your familiar doctor and may have to deal with unfamiliar medical systems.
After the infant years, your activities will now be dictated by how child friendly they are. When you travel with kids you naturally want to see them enjoy themselves, so this will mean lots of parks, zoos, amusement parks, etc... Also restaurants that serve food they will be willing to eat. Your schedules will revolves around theirs, so you can basically forget night markets or spending all day exploring a new city. You really don't want to drag a tired child around with you. You'll be spending a lot more time in your hotel or vacation rental because children need more sleep than adults, so you'll probably want comfortable accommodations.

meandmyfamily

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2019, 01:32:03 PM »
Each child is SO different.  I have 4.  My first was and still is the easiest child/teenager ever.  She is almost 16.  If she had been an only we would have thought we were the "best" parents ever!  Then the 2nd kid came hahaha...I love that kid to pieces but wow he was/is intense!  Number 2 has made me a better person and I have learned a lot about myself.  Then 3 and 4...all different.  Different stages were/are hard.  Traveling with our kids has never been hard but we go with the flow.  We don't drive at night because they do better during the day etc.  We adapt to their needs and we all have a great time!  We always knew we wanted kids and never doubted that just how many.  Really do some soul searching!  I love having 4!

Many people parent very differently.  Also don't ever say I would never until you have been in their shoes....

jeninco

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2019, 01:44:37 PM »
To follow up a bit on Cloudsail: if you have kids for whom it's a good match, and you do the work early on, you can do quite a bit of traveling with little, medium-sized, and large kids. It will be different, though.  Also, if your kid will tolerate it (and you can, too), I strongly suggest using wraps or baby carriers instead of strollers: it's one less bulky thing to deal with.

Small to medium-sized kids are fun to have in Southern Europe -- Spain and Italy, in particular, are really child-friendly and have low birthrates. This means that people will be friendly toward your kid (unlike in the US) and also be tolerant of kid behavior. We had our 20-month old get a tour of the espresso machine, the gelateria, and meet the owner's dog while we were finishing lunch in Italy, because the owners noticed that he was finished and getting bored. He also got passed lap-to-lap on a train in Italy, because he was tired and getting fussy.

Older kids, who can learn languages with you and help plan, can be a real blast to travel with. And they can lead you into experiences you might not've had otherwise: that same kid, age 16 or so, wanted to take a kite-boarding lesson in Sicily. He and the instructor only really had Spanish in common, and they had a blast. He was also reading Edith Hamilton's Mythology as summer reading as we were touring around a number of historical sites that featured in the book...

As always when traveling with other humans, you'll need to take their abilities and preferences into account. Also, it helps if you teach them basic manners early on -- "please" and "thank you" and reasonable table manners go a surprisingly long way. But civility is a thing we all practice, right?

Adding to @meandmyfamily: we always did our driving at night when the kids were small, because our kids HATED being in car seats for very long. We'd have dinner, put them into PJs, and drive until we couldn't drive safely, then camp. This usually put us within striking distance of wherever we were wanting to be (this was mostly for camping trips 7ish hours away from home) and we woke up in a lovely place that was very different from home. But it's part of adapting to the needs of the kids.

Metalcat

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2019, 02:12:37 PM »
As someone who chose not to have kids, here's my best advice for contemplating having them:

You're not deciding between being child-free vs having a perfect, sweet, healthy, little clone of yourselves to have precious moments with. That's just one possible future and you might not pull that straw.

Kids come in a lot of flavours, and you don't get to choose.

Every time I hear an update about SIL's daughter being hospitalized, or watching her be fed through a tube, or seeing that only her parents can understand her non-verbal communication, I am reminded that I never wanted to be a parent.

I thought I wanted kids. I spent a few years in my late 20s (thanks hormones!) thinking it would be so much fun to have a little version of myself, a talkative, creative, nerdy kid with a big vocabulary who liked to alphabetize things and who would be my best friend like I am to my mom, but that's not wanting to be a parent, that's wanting something *for me*, which is NOT what parenting is about.

Parenting isn't about what a kid brings to your life, it's the support your provide for theirs. It's not about you, it's about them, whatever their needs turn out to be.

Spend some serious time, both of you, contemplating a life with a child who has serious special needs. If that makes you say "nope", then think long and hard about choosing to become a parent.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2019, 06:52:21 AM »
As someone who chose not to have kids, here's my best advice for contemplating having them:

You're not deciding between being child-free vs having a perfect, sweet, healthy, little clone of yourselves to have precious moments with. That's just one possible future and you might not pull that straw.

I'd add to that that even if your child does not have special needs, s/he will be a whole new person with their own personality and interests - not a clone of yourself to have precious moments with. That would be a bad motivation to have kids. To me that half the fun of parenting is that my kids are very different from me and from each other.  It is so fun to discover new things about my kids' personalities that are completely unlike my own.  Just little things like how they see the world and what they love.

Like this morning, since we're on staycation right now and went to the zoology museum yesterday, my younger daughter wanted to make a diorama with home made sea creatures.  I haven't got a crafty bone in my body but spent the whole morning with the kids making this diorama.  Hard to explain but it's thrilling for a parent to see their kids' really interested in something cool.  If I didn't have kids I would never have gone to the zoology museum, never would have discovered with my daughter how great the sea creatures are and never would have spent a morning making a diorama of sea creatures and looking up descriptions on the internet. 

Parents tend to think their kids are the most fascinating creatures ever to walk the earth (which can be irritating when you hear them drone on about their kids) but this is a wonderful thing when it happens to you.  And the special needs parents I know are also completely in love with their kids although I guess it would be better to let someone with the experience of parenting a special needs kid opine on this.

Metalcat

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Re: Can parents opine on the neediness of their 1-2 year olds?
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2019, 07:07:22 AM »
As someone who chose not to have kids, here's my best advice for contemplating having them:

You're not deciding between being child-free vs having a perfect, sweet, healthy, little clone of yourselves to have precious moments with. That's just one possible future and you might not pull that straw.

I'd add to that that even if your child does not have special needs, s/he will be a whole new person with their own personality and interests - not a clone of yourself to have precious moments with. That would be a bad motivation to have kids. To me that half the fun of parenting is that my kids are very different from me and from each other.  It is so fun to discover new things about my kids' personalities that are completely unlike my own.  Just little things like how they see the world and what they love.

Like this morning, since we're on staycation right now and went to the zoology museum yesterday, my younger daughter wanted to make a diorama with home made sea creatures.  I haven't got a crafty bone in my body but spent the whole morning with the kids making this diorama.  Hard to explain but it's thrilling for a parent to see their kids' really interested in something cool.  If I didn't have kids I would never have gone to the zoology museum, never would have discovered with my daughter how great the sea creatures are and never would have spent a morning making a diorama of sea creatures and looking up descriptions on the internet. 

Parents tend to think their kids are the most fascinating creatures ever to walk the earth (which can be irritating when you hear them drone on about their kids) but this is a wonderful thing when it happens to you.  And the special needs parents I know are also completely in love with their kids although I guess it would be better to let someone with the experience of parenting a special needs kid opine on this.

Every parent with special needs kids I've ever worked with is madly in love with their kid. No exception, and I wasn't implying anything otherwise, nor speaking for any parents.

I was using myself as an example of someone who clearly never actually wanted to be a parent because my motivations were nonsense, hormones and nonsense.

The moment I realized that my desire for a baby came with conditions, I knew I wasn't meant to be a parent.