Author Topic: My 9 year old's dislike towards school  (Read 2936 times)

whywork

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My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« on: August 19, 2018, 11:56:14 PM »
Today my 9 year old kid asked me why she needs to go to school (especially tomorrow being the Monday morning). She tells me she doesn't like going to school and she instead prefers staying home and spending her time doing things she likes (art, playing, reading story books etc...).

I was not able to give a good reason to go to school other than social status (if someone asks me who I am, I'll say I am an engineer or I went to school at so and so) and may be being able to retire bit quicker (this may not be true as well, a person who skips college and works instead and invests his college funds can retire in 10-15 years as well).

I feel her situation is very similar to mine and most of us here who hate being tied up to a 9-5 job and want to FIRE. I am scared to do it but I want to really give my daughter permission to skip school and have fun in doing the things she likes. She can homeschool or even study only the things that add value to her life. I honestly felt I wasted a lot of time studying so many things in my life that were never useful to me. All for the fear of not being able to survive later. How is the below plan for my daughter, let me know what you think of it

- Skip school and do things she likes; Have fun but also have some discipline and read books (non-fiction) that she likes with some goals.
- Build some useful skills that can help her get a job better than a minimum wage
- At 17, open an investment account for her with 150k (her college fee equivalent) and let her start on some job; even a min. wage one. She will stay with us and saves up all her earnings in the investment account.
- Once she works for 5 years, she will have like 350k. From this point, she will work only part time and the other half of her time continues to pursue the things she likes. This way she continues to have some discipline in life while still enjoying her life. If she instead prefers to work till her FIRE number, then she continues for another 7 years to FIRE by age 29.

What do you think of this and has anyone done or is doing similar things with your kids
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 12:00:16 AM by whywork »

Freedomin5

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2018, 01:26:27 AM »
You do know that in some countries, it is illegal for children under age 16 to not attend school?  That means that you run the risk of being charged with child neglect. If you decide to homeschool, that is fine, but in my home county (Canada), you must notify the school board of this decision.

My daughter would also prefer to play at home and learn via Khan Academy, but I think school allows her to learn to work and interact with other people her age, face and resolve social conflict, learn to follow rules, obey authority figures, and respectfully disagree with authority figures, and learn that the world does not revolve around her (and her needs, wants, and desires).

Iíd also talk more with her to find out what is so bad about school. Is she being bullied? Is the work too hard? Is the teacher shaming her? Is school too easy? At nine, there are usually other reasons not to like school than simply ďitís not funĒ.

Cranky

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2018, 05:30:42 AM »
A 9yo's understanding of what she needs/wants in life is ... incomplete. And elementary school typically lasts less than 7 hours/day, including lunch, recess, art, music. It's not a grueling schedule, and leaves *plenty* of time for going home and watching youtuble videos.

JanetJackson

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2018, 06:11:09 AM »
Hi.
I'm a SINK, and I don't generally follow the Mini Mustaches posts... but yours caught my eye.

I eventually graduated HS with a 3.9GPA, BUT when I was young I really really hated school.

I wish the concept of Unschooling, Wildschooling, or even homeschooling had been more prevalent when I was young.  I think I would have still had the same outcome (great GPA, scholarship to college), but without the painful early school experience.  I'm glad I went to high school, but part of my hate for grade school led to a ton of behavioral problems/acting out/etc.


If I were you, I'd look into some of the Unschooling or Homeschooling concepts and see if you think it could be something you would be able to undertake.  I had a good friend who homeschooled for two years and then decided it wasn't the right fit for her family, and now her kids are in a regular K-12. 
It's ok to want to try something different, and it's ok to think outside of the conventional model.
Continue the conversation with your daughter and see where it leads you.

I think your ideas are valid and with some more research and planning you could give them a try. 

:::The internet is full of ideas and opinions about your parenting decisions, but ultimately, they are YOUR decisions.  Barring abuse or negligence, I think it's ok to explore different ways of parenting::::

elliha

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2018, 06:26:46 AM »
As a child I would have loved to have been homeschooled and gotten to learn as much and as little as I wanted about different subject (within some reason, I would have done very little maths in any situation without any guidance from another person and I would have needed this to become a functioning adult) and when I read what you say my childhood self says that sounds great. My adult self however recognizes that many of the skills I have used the most in my adult life and work life were what I hated at school and what I would totally have avoided if I had been homeschooled: group projects. I hated them so much and yet it is something most people will have to do in their adult careers whether they like it or not. Had I not had to practice this over and over in school I would not have been as successful as an adult. Why? The reason I hated it was that I wasn't very good at it and it basically took my whole time in school to develop this skills, I started kind of thinking it was OK by the time I was 17 and when I had graduated college I would say I had finally started to master this art. In my current job group work is an important part and I hate to think how hard this would have been if I had had to start this in college. It wasn't just the case of growing up, I still hate some of the same things with group work but doing it over and over has taught me to minimize the pain. Sure, I could just pick a career that didn't involve as much group work but that is very limiting. I would try to see what can be done to make school more comfortable or if you do choose homeschooling, be mindful of if your kid is avoiding something just because it is hard, that is usually not successful later on in life.

Plugging Along

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2018, 06:42:41 AM »
I would spend time to find out why your daughter hates school so much.  The develop a plan for that.


I think home schooling or unschooling could work, but usually you have to register and you have to have a plan.  Are you and mom on board.  Who will stay home to homeschool.   Homeschooling is not a free for all of learn only what you want.   There topics that do need to be covered.   I assuming that you would want your daughter at least get her high school diploma.  Without that, it will be difficult to show many skill sets to be hired.  Without that piece of paper, it can be limiting. 

In terms of what do kids get going to school.   Itís not just about learning things.  I know my kids were bored in school, and found it easy.  School also there to learn different views, how to deal with people, some of the most important lessons are those on the play ground.  Learning how to function in society.   

Thereís also the aspect of school open opens up other worlds and options. Unless she knows specifically what she wants to do, other than fun things, you may be closing many options to her.  How does she know what she wants to do, unless she has been exposed to them.   This means a lot of times you may do alot of things you donít want.

I think your plan for FI for her is based on a lot of assumptions.  I love the idea of investing the college amount.  At minimum wage, she will make about $30k a year, what if she doesnít want to live with you, and what if she doesnít want to save every penny.  What if she hates the idea of working and asks why she has to work if you let her live for free?   What if she decides that she hates the life of minimum wages, but many options are closed to her? 

This is a pretty unconventional which fine, but it means that you will have to put a lot of thought and research into it. 

ZMonet

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2018, 11:26:25 AM »
If you move forward with this, you might look into Sudburry schools.  "A Sudbury school is a type of school, usually for the K-12 age range, where students have complete responsibility for their own education, and the school is run by direct democracy in which students and staff are almost equals."

Here is a longer description and a list of such schools by country.  They encourage you to come to take a look at the school and before you can even get in they have your kid audit the school for a couple of weeks.

I was unable to pull the trigger for my daughter, and she changed her mind a bit after exploring it more, but maybe it works for your daughter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sudbury_schools

GuitarStv

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2018, 12:02:03 PM »
I hated school as a kid because I had to do work.  At home I could read science fiction and comic books all day.  9 year old me really would have liked a completely self directed education plan.  38 year old me is pretty happy he toughed it out through the public education system.

formerlydivorcedmom

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2018, 12:07:21 PM »
My 9-year-old "hates school" too.  He tells that to anyone who will listen.  His teachers tell me he always acts like he is having a great time at school, and he goes out to the bus without more than the normal amount of protest.

Life is not all fun and games.  Sometimes we all have to do things that we don't want to do, or things we normally like to do at times we don't want to do them.  School is a really good example of that.  Even for me!  I have to get up extra early to get oldest kid to school 2 hours early so she can try out for the volleyball team tomorrow.

I want my children to have lots of options for the future.  That means I don't want to constrain them now.  I will expose them to lots of different ideas, lots of different topics, and lots of different types of people.  When they are older, they will have a solid foundation for choosing what they want to do with their lives.

mxt0133

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2018, 12:10:14 PM »
Your daughter's reason for wanting to stay home from school was one of the reasons why my wife and I decided to homeschool/unschool our children.  We emphasize curiosity and creativity, but we also encourage diligence, perseverance, and grit.  When my kids want to do something we that they might not be capable of we talk about what they need to do and the work they have to put in to accomplish it. 

My kids hate chores but the must be done if we want to continue to live an a clean house or be able to eat on a clean table with clean dishes.  If they want to buy something expensive I give them opportunities to earn extra money.  It is also the reason to learn math so they know how much money they need to save up to buy something or home much change they should get back.  When they get gifts they write thank you letters or they might not get any more gifts in the future.

I understand the concern that people have about kids not learning hard work but that only happens if everything is given to the child and the child is not empowered to accomplish this by themselves.  As for negotiating skills and working with others, in school I was told working with others was cheating and there was no negotiating with the 'authority figures', what they said was it.  I did not learn effective negotiations until I was much older because it was never encouraged in my household or in the schools that I attended.  My oldest is learning negotiating skills because as a family we are open to them and he knows his input is valued when it comes to family matters.  We just worked out adjusting his screen time that worked out for him and our concerns with how much time he spends on them.

My perspective is whether you homeschool your children or not will not matter as much as how engaged you are and how you interact with your children.  Many creative kids went to traditional school and many homeschooled children go on to college and onto professional careers.  However, neither will guarantee that your children are 'successful' or will find occupations that will allow them to FIRE.




whywork

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2018, 06:32:10 PM »
Great replies everyone. Lot of well thought out posts.

I wish school teaches negotiation and leadership skills. Atleast I haven't seen a school that specifically focuses on that. School period just makes you suffer more (instead of just the work career) for lacking those skills

Agree that quitting school totally can make them lazy and totally naive at dealing with people issues and not having a high school degree can be a bit of problem.

I really wish I can give my kid the freedom but too afraid to take the risk even though I believe not sending to school has more benefits than downsides. I am just doing it because everyone else is doing.

ZMonet, Thanks for the suggestion of the Sudbury schools, Sounds like something we might like. I will check them out.

AMandM

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2018, 12:32:16 PM »
The difference between an adult FIREing and a 9yo quitting school is that the adult has a broader range of experience, which leads to positive goals (not simply "no job"), and also the skills (including knowing how to acquire new skills) to pursue those goals.

Personally, I think home education can be more effective than traditional school at giving kids that range of experience and those skills and helping them to identify their goals, especially non-mainstream goals.  We started homeschooling over twenty years ago in part because we hated the thought of our kids spending the best hours of the day in such an inefficient learning environment.  Of course, it takes attention and guidance from the parents, just as any aspect of childrearing does.  If you are seriously interested in this avenue, you should start by investigating your state's legal requirements for homeschooling, and also for leaving children unattended.

Good luck to your daughter!

ontheway2

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2018, 08:37:07 AM »
At minimum wage, she will make about $30k a year, what if she doesnít want to live with you, and what if she doesnít want to save every penny.  What if she hates the idea of working and asks why she has to work if you let her live for free?   What if she decides that she hates the life of minimum wages, but many options are closed to her? 



Federal minimum wage in the US is about/less than half that and applies to (I believe) 21 states. States that have their own minimum wage won't even come close to 30k unless you are in DC, and that is still slightly under 30k

Trifele

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2018, 03:38:43 AM »
If your daughter is expressing a desire for self-direction and more time, homeschooling or virtual schooling may be an option.  We're in our sixth year of homeschooling our two kids.  One of the many upsides is the ability our kids have to manage their time, and the freedom to focus on things that interest them. 

What state are you in?  You could check out what the requirements are and what options are available.  States vary from loosey-goosey (just register; no requirements) to strict (must have curriculum approved and complete standardized testing annually.)   If you don't want to set up your own curriculum many states also have Virtual School, which is the public school curriculum done from home on line.   Some allow part time public school enrollment,  where you do some subjects at home, and some at the brick-and-mortar school. 

If you decide you are interested, I would also suggest that you meet some homeschool families in your area to get a feel for what they are doing.  You can search online for a co-op or group near you that might be a fit, and go visit. 

Finally, remember it's not a one way street.  You can always try it to see if it's a fit for your daughter and your family, and then re-enroll if it doesn't work out. 



joonifloofeefloo

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2018, 05:43:29 AM »
I would totally look into unschooling, homeschooling, or another path more suited to her.

A few thoughts:

1. While the type of school system she is in currently is a great fit for some people, other options fit better for other people.

2. Many children have great success doing only "bricks and mortar" school their whole young career, many do best with a version of homeschooling, and many find it ideal to switch back and forth between these every year or three, depending on personal factors and local opportunities.

3. In homeschooling, she can still get all the benefits people above encourage: face-to-face contact with peers and others, socialization, practice working things out with others, exposure to a range of activities, etc. All the kids in our homeschool community get the same number of hours per week with others and in similar environments. We just do it via activities at the community centers, etc. (I wish *I* had my kid's opportunities and social system!)

4. Homeschooling can allow one to develop academically, socially, etc, while also allowing one to practice good self-care, self-advocacy, and so on. Kids get sufficient sleep, time for great meals, time to work more deeply on a project, etc. This can make a huge difference for many.

5. As a couple of people have already mentioned, look into your region's laws and opportunities around homeschooling. You may need to make it official. You may find there is a strong homeschool network chock full of accessible opportunities, or none. You may be a secular person who finds only a highly religious network or a religious person who finds only a secular community. Etc. See what's available locally, as well as what's required in your region.

Chrissy

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2018, 07:33:35 PM »
Sudbury is a great suggestion.  You might also look into Montessori.

familyandfarming

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2018, 10:05:09 PM »
Just retired (after 38 years) high school art teacher here. I had every homeschooled high school student in our district during those 38 years, as they all wanted specials during their school day. (And Art rocks!)

From my perspective there are two different types of homeschooled students. I've had some homeschooled students who were home to mostly watch other siblings, do the laundry and barely hit the books. It was very sad to see those students and their education undermined.

The other type of homeschooling was fantastic! Those students were part of a consortium where they would not only have art classes with me, but were connected with other homeschooled students and their parents for support and activities. I just had a homeschool student (and a fantastic artist) graduate from high school at the age of 15, do well on the ACT and is enrolled part time as a community college student.

Remember, if you decide to homeschool, it's not a decision etched in stone. You can always re-enroll in public school if homeschooling doesn't fit. Just make sure your decision is grounded in "What is best for my child?" Always.

LaDeeDa

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2018, 05:14:11 AM »
Whywork, it seems we have a lot in common!

I am in a similar situation with my 10 year old. He just doesn't like school and never has. He's old enough now that I can get more answers about what he doesn't like, and as I don't have a good temperament to homeschool him, I'm working with his teachers to help them get him more engaged with the subject matter.

His last teacher noticed how much he liked a gross-out science lab they did, so he worked to highlight the gross aspects of other subjects, and it did make a difference! While there are limits to what a public school teacher can do, it's working well for us, for now!


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singpolyma

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2018, 06:29:50 AM »
Having a good answer to the question "why education?" is pretty important, and something that our society has gotten very bad at communicating. People pretend it's about future job prospects or other such things, which is a hard motivator especially when the connection is not clear.

If you have the time and temperment for it, I would agree with the suggestions for unschooling. Done properly, unschooling can provide a better education than many other systems. Far be it from choosing between traditional school and a future career, especially at the elementary level unschooling is a very valid choice.

Montessori et al are great too, but then we're talking about private school, ick. Though I would suggest reading up on these philosophies as well as reading about unschooling directly to inform your own answer to "why education" and your own style.

elaine amj

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2018, 06:50:14 AM »
My kid quickly decided school was more fun when I let him stay home one day "sick". No sports, no TV, no phone. He went to school the next day.

We have had this conversation multiple times though. Every time I show him the connection between grade school to high school to college to " easier" white collar job to enough money to have choices. At that point it makes a whole lot more sense to him.

I don't personally see massive educational value in schools. In fact, my own mother tried to convince me to skip university to take over her very lucrative insurance career (I'd probably have made wayyyyyy more money than my current career and I acknowledged it then).

But the reality is most skilled trades / minimum wage / unskilled jobs require manual labor (where your body eventually breaks down) or exposure to hazardous materials (we actually do worry about factory environments, construction materials, etc). It's been an eye-opener as DS16 is considering the skilled trades (he still hates school). I'm encouraging him to highly consider more "white collar" skilled trades and right now he is checking out CAD technician. But for this, he still needs a high school diploma + a 2 year diploma.

So yeah - he has to suffer through school.

I have had some of your thoughts though. I dream of the FIRE life so much I wonder why my kid has to even go through the work life. Then again, there is a difference between working hard for something (which gives you the skills to be flexible and adapt to problems and stuff life throws at you) and being handed something on a silver platter. And having at minimum a high school diploma gives you options and more freedom than being stuck to only unskilled work.

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Laura33

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2018, 11:04:41 AM »
I figure my job as parent is to set my kids up for whatever future they decide they want when they get there.  And as the parent, sometimes that means that my job is to say no to some things they want, and to force them to say yes to others they don't want, because I have the perspective to know what is in their long-term interest, and they don't.  So yes, my kids have to eat some damn vegetables, even though every single one of us -- me included -- would much rather have ice cream for dinner, thank you very much.

Of course, it's also my job to make sure that my yesses and nos are based on the long-term best interests of my kids, and not someone else's vision or someone else's kid.  And that means that sometimes my decisions need to be different, too.  In particular, I have yanked my DD out of two schools because they did not know how to manager her productively and constructively, and I was even considering quitting my job and homeschooling if the third school didn't work (I got lucky that it did).*

So the first step is to figure out if there is something actually wrong with the school or how your DD is getting along there, or if this is just standard kid whining about eating broccoli.  Don't just listen to her words -- look at her behavior.  Is she acting differently: does she periodically lose it for no reason; does she complain about stomach-aches on Sunday night or Monday morning; is she just acting like a different kid than the one you know?  If so, definitely follow up with the school until you get to the bottom of what's going on -- could be bullies, could be that she is in a class that is too fast or too slow, could be a teacher whose expectations are not age-appropriate, etc. etc. etc.  But also keep in mind that kids are awesome at spotting a sympathetic target from a mile away -- which means the more she thinks you might relieve her of her school obligations, the more whining and misery you would hear.  (My mother could never figure this out.  She felt so bad dropping DD off at daycare, because DD would cling and sob like her world was ending.  I fell for it too until I realized DD never did that for DH.  So one day, I dropped DD off, withstood the typical world-ending sobs, and then stood outside the door to the room and waited.  I swear she stopped crying within about 15 seconds and then happily took her spot in the circle to sing the songs and do the morning activities.  That kid really, really should have been an actress.)

Your vision sounds like the idyllic childhood.  But you also need to make sure your kid is getting enough metaphorical broccoli to grow up healthy.  I would encourage you to do a little more research before making a decision.  And that starts with getting a real sense of what those various job/career options require.**  It's easy to say "you can make good money in the trades" -- but what kind of diplomas/degrees/schooling will your DD need in order to be considered for one of those kinds of trades?  What kind of skills?  Carpenters and plumbers actually have to do a lot of math on the fly, for example, not to mention having good spacial reasoning skills (and a basic understanding of the laws of physics always helps).  Maybe your kid wants to be a teacher*** or a nurse -- historically very popular paths for little girls.  But those definitely require college degrees and various certifications.  Etc.  Once you know what your kid needs to have reasonable options in life, then look at your various educational options to get there -- public school, private schools, schools with a different philosophy, homeschooling, etc., to see what seems to suit your DD best.  But don't just listen to the speeches; learn what the days are like, what the kids do, what kind of homework there is (if any), and then look for any data you can find about whether kids who have followed that path in the past have managed to pursue the kinds of options you want your DD to have.  Then you can make an informed decision with confidence that it is the best interest of your kid.

Tl;dr:  The point of life isn't just to have the shortest path to FIRE, it's to maximize happiness over the course of your life.  So IMO, sucking it up in a job that makes you miserable for 10-15 years is a failure. 

*Ironically, the schools that didn't work were private, and the one that ultimately did was public -- turns out they had much, much more experience with ADHD kids.

**And please, for the love of Pete, look beyond fast food; good Lord, if my parents had decided that 10 years at McDonald's and then FIRE on a minimal income was my path in life, and so that was all they prepared me for, I probably would have shot myself (yes, hyperbole, but I worked fast food, and I was bored out of my mind AND physically exhausted, so at a bare minimum a variety of mood-altering substances would have become a large part of my life to get me through my day).

***It sounds counterintuitive given her current hatred of school.  But I know people who became teachers precisely because it was miserable for them and they wanted to "fix" it for other kids.

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2018, 09:45:53 AM »
I hated school as a kid because I had to do work.  At home I could read science fiction and comic books all day.  9 year old me really would have liked a completely self directed education plan.  38 year old me is pretty happy he toughed it out through the public education system.

Pretty much this. Does your daughter have a friend group? Does she enjoy specific activities at school? I think it's fine to supplement the things she enjoys on the evenings/weekends, but wonder if she has friends that she enjoys seeing at school. Both of my kids may not enjoy the concept of school so much, but do enjoy time with friends. I may probe there a bit, and see how she's doing on the friends front.

RelaxedGal

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2018, 12:19:48 PM »
I hated school as a kid because I had to do work.  At home I could read science fiction and comic books all day.  9 year old me really would have liked a completely self directed education plan.  38 year old me is pretty happy he toughed it out through the public education system.

My 7 year old asks to be home schooled, I think because she wants to stay in her pajamas all day and watch YouTube.  Her self directed education plan would involve becoming a YouTuber like Sis Vs Bro.

Sorry kid, ain't happening.

Trifele

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2018, 12:54:02 PM »
I hated school as a kid because I had to do work.  At home I could read science fiction and comic books all day.  9 year old me really would have liked a completely self directed education plan.  38 year old me is pretty happy he toughed it out through the public education system.

My 7 year old asks to be home schooled, I think because she wants to stay in her pajamas all day and watch YouTube.  Her self directed education plan would involve becoming a YouTuber like Sis Vs Bro.

Sorry kid, ain't happening.

'Self-directed' homeschool doesn't mean that the kid gets to choose video games and comic books -- in our family at least, lol.  Our kids do quite a bit more school work at home than they did when they were in public school.  Each year we give them the choice of homeschool and public school and they keep choosing homeschool -- because they can work at their own pace, and spend more time on things that interest them.   We ended up spending almost three hours on world history yesterday, for the love of Pete, because the kids thought the particular topic was super interesting and they kept asking more questions.  Fairly normal academic event in homeschool, but unknown/impossible in public school due to natural constraints on time and structure.


GuitarStv

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2018, 01:16:57 PM »
That sounds well and good . . . and I can see it working for some of the elementary school curriculum.  I'm kinda skeptical for high school maths and science though.  How often does a child choose to further delve into the equations behind thermodynamics and heat and mass transfer?  Or Laplace transforms, static/dynamic load analysis, differential equations, etc.?  This shit is interesting to almost nobody . . . yet learning about them is the gateway to a bunch of stuff that can be interesting.

Trifele

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2018, 01:41:23 PM »
That sounds well and good . . . and I can see it working for some of the elementary school curriculum.  I'm kinda skeptical for high school maths and science though.  How often does a child choose to further delve into the equations behind thermodynamics and heat and mass transfer?  Or Laplace transforms, static/dynamic load analysis, differential equations, etc.?  This shit is interesting to almost nobody . . . yet learning about them is the gateway to a bunch of stuff that can be interesting.

Our kids are 10th and 7th grade, and so far so good . . . In fact, they both like math and science, and history is one of their least favorite subjects.  When they are studying something they don't enjoy, we just tell them they have to suck it up and master what they need to.  No different than public school in that regard probably.   

GuitarStv

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2018, 01:45:32 PM »
OK, well if you're forcing them to do the stuff that they hate to do then it sounds reasonable.  I was under the impression that 'self-directed' meant something different.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2018, 02:16:26 PM »
I was under the impression that 'self-directed' meant something different.

Me too.

My son is almost entirely self-directed. I'm mostly the "facilitator" -finding the classes that cover the topics he's into, getting him to the other people who want to talk about it all endlessly or who can point him to the next step.

There are areas where he's not self-directed, though. I don't believe in forcing specific academics -I simply don't see value in memorizing certain data- but I do believe in requiring some other things.

How often does a child choose to further delve into the equations behind thermodynamics and heat and mass transfer?  Or Laplace transforms, static/dynamic load analysis, differential equations, etc.?  This shit is interesting to almost nobody . . . yet learning about them is the gateway to a bunch of stuff that can be interesting.

I went to regular school but didn't take in any of that. In our homeschool community, though, a lot of the kids do. There's just a high number of science-oriented kids in it, who love nothing more than to dig down these rabbit holes without interruption.

Trifele

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2018, 02:39:53 PM »
OK, well if you're forcing them to do the stuff that they hate to do then it sounds reasonable.  I was under the impression that 'self-directed' meant something different.

:)

elliha

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2018, 01:15:13 AM »
If you want to learn D you might have to learn A, B, and most of C to do it, this is why even self-directed learning can include a lot of stuff you really don't want to do or that you are much less interested in. Also, it may refer to learning done when the student wants or in the way they want as well but that the material is decided by someone else, this is often the case when it is used in schools.

Trifele

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2018, 03:34:27 AM »
If you want to learn D you might have to learn A, B, and most of C to do it, this is why even self-directed learning can include a lot of stuff you really don't want to do or that you are much less interested in.

Yes, thank you @elliha -- you expressed it much better than I did.  That's what I meant as well.  Other than mandatory core courses we let our kids choose what to study.  Once they are in a subject, if they express the thought "this is so hard" -- that's when we tell them they need to forge ahead and master x if they want to get to y.   Our daughter plays an instrument -- her request, she's driving it -- and we just paid for a semester's worth of lessons.  If she wanted to bail next week, you can bet I would tell her no, she has to stick with it at least to the end of the semester. 

Homeschooling is hard to explain to people who haven't done it.  I know I did not understand it before we did it.  But it just ... works, for us.  The issue of the kid not wanting to learn just doesn't happen, IME.  I think it is hardwired into humans somehow to enjoy learning.  (I suppose if an unfortunate kid was in a family where the parents didn't value learning, and weren't facilitating anything, then it would be a different story.  But that's not the reality for us or the dozens of other homeschool families we know.) 




reeshau

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2018, 05:17:01 AM »
That sounds well and good . . . and I can see it working for some of the elementary school curriculum.  I'm kinda skeptical for high school maths and science though.  How often does a child choose to further delve into the equations behind thermodynamics and heat and mass transfer?  Or Laplace transforms, static/dynamic load analysis, differential equations, etc.?  This shit is interesting to almost nobody . . . yet learning about them is the gateway to a bunch of stuff that can be interesting.

Said in such isolation, I think you are right.  But learning Laplace transforms can lead to an understanding of FM radio, and eventually lead to optics / lasers.  Of course, the natural thing to do with thermodynamics is to melt something.  (not too fast--aka an explosion)  Very few people begin their inquiries with the theory--even the discoverers.  Rather, they are looking to solve a problem, or ask "Why?" about something.  Part of the trick in teaching these things well is to also be curious--either already be knowledgable about it, or involved enough to find materials/people who know it on a practical level.

GuitarStv

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2018, 07:29:37 AM »
If you want to learn D you might have to learn A, B, and most of C to do it, this is why even self-directed learning can include a lot of stuff you really don't want to do or that you are much less interested in. Also, it may refer to learning done when the student wants or in the way they want as well but that the material is decided by someone else, this is often the case when it is used in schools.

That makes sense I suppose.  Actually getting over my initial distrust of the concept - I think that self-directed learning is more or less how I ended up pursuing studies in the system as well.  Application is pretty much the only way that I learn anything, I can't grasp lectures and theory on their own.  By third year of university I figured this out . . . skipped all my lectures that year and the next, did problems from my texts every day and showed up for labs and actually started to get concepts much better.  My test marks improved noticeably (although I had a few strange looks from professors when I showed up to write exams in a class I'd only attended on the first day).

Trifele

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2018, 08:05:46 AM »
If you want to learn D you might have to learn A, B, and most of C to do it, this is why even self-directed learning can include a lot of stuff you really don't want to do or that you are much less interested in. Also, it may refer to learning done when the student wants or in the way they want as well but that the material is decided by someone else, this is often the case when it is used in schools.

That makes sense I suppose.  Actually getting over my initial distrust of the concept - I think that self-directed learning is more or less how I ended up pursuing studies in the system as well.  Application is pretty much the only way that I learn anything, I can't grasp lectures and theory on their own.  By third year of university I figured this out . . . skipped all my lectures that year and the next, did problems from my texts every day and showed up for labs and actually started to get concepts much better.  My test marks improved noticeably (although I had a few strange looks from professors when I showed up to write exams in a class I'd only attended on the first day).

You got it.  Many people learn 'differently', and being able to tailor how the learning happens is key.  That and the freedom/time to follow your interests down whatever rabbit hole you desire. 

AMandM

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2018, 06:54:30 PM »
That sounds well and good . . . and I can see it working for some of the elementary school curriculum.  I'm kinda skeptical for high school maths and science though.  How often does a child choose to further delve into the equations behind thermodynamics and heat and mass transfer?  Or Laplace transforms, static/dynamic load analysis, differential equations, etc.?  This shit is interesting to almost nobody . . . yet learning about them is the gateway to a bunch of stuff that can be interesting.

Well, first off, AFAIK very few high schools even teach most of those, let alone delve into the underlying ideas. And homeschooling gives kids more of an opportunity to pursue questions like these than most schools, I think. In school, at least IME, you get plug-and-chug equations thrown at you and woe betide you if you ask why they are what they are.

CanuckExpat

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Re: My 9 year old's dislike towards school
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2018, 12:05:35 AM »
A book recommendation for you and/or your daughter, do with it as you will: The Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to Quit School and Get a Real Life and Education

Last edition was published in 1998, so some of the specifics are old (mainly the parts where the internet is new), but most of the ideas are not dated.