12 year old refuses to spend own money on gloves

[Metric Mouse]

Make a rule that his hands have to be covered when he rides his bike and it is under a certain temp. Let him solve the problem of how. Save money by using socks? Ask grandma for another pair at Xmas? Buy cheap gloves from goodwill? Learn to knit? There are countless ways to follow the rule, and he gets to learn how to weigh options and make mistakes and good decisions.

Ooh... this is a good idea.  I like this balance of firmness - there are rules, you will follow them - with the flexibility to solve problems and be creative and even 'fail'.  I'll have to remember this example, to hopefully structure more of my parenting around it.

[TheOldestYoungMan]

Take a very long bike ride to the thrift store and remind him he still has to make it home.  You're balancing the creativity of a child against his meager resources, and the reason it's taking longer than you want is that he'll alter behavior.  In the same way he'll do more chores for money, he'll avoid spending money on things he can do without.  He'll avoid activities that now suck because he didn't spend the money.  Like walking to school, where you can safely keep your hands in your pocket, or riding the bike more slowly, where you can alternate hands in the pocket.  By the time I was 12, I could bike faster than walking with both hands in my pocket.

Also, at 12, I don't remember gloves working for shit.  Mittens was where it was at.

You could also do a "gear check" fine.  Where he doesn't have to necessarily replace things he loses, but he does pay a fine when he loses something.  So weekly he has to have a certain checklist of gear or else he owes a dollar for each missing piece.

My dad was always in the camp of the first deal.  Won't buy a hat?  Well lets go work outside in the sun all day.  Won't buy an alarm clock?  Well lets let you be late to school a few days in a row, and deal with the detention and such.  Won't buy long pants?  Shoveling snow is now your permanent job.

[arebelspy]

I just don't see why you need a rule for something that has natural consequences. Explain it to them, then let nature be the teacher, if necessary.

What does adding a rule help?  They'll break your rule, or not, you aren't there to enforce it, or provide consequences, and why should you? 

Are you going to set a rule they can't overdraft their bank account when they're an adult, too?  Teach them correct behavior and natural consequences so when you explain how the bank penalizes you as a natural consequence (not mommy and daddy penalizing you for not following their rules) they'll get it and understand.

[Metric Mouse]

Also, at 12, I don't remember gloves working for shit.  Mittens was where it was at.

You could also do a "gear check" fine.  Where he doesn't have to necessarily replace things he loses, but he does pay a fine when he loses something.  So weekly he has to have a certain checklist of gear or else he owes a dollar for each missing piece.

My dad was always in the camp of the first deal.  Won't buy a hat?  Well lets go work outside in the sun all day.  Won't buy an alarm clock?  Well lets let you be late to school a few days in a row, and deal with the detention and such.  Won't buy long pants?  Shoveling snow is now your permanent job.

Mittens are clearly superior to gloves for warmth. I wish I had learned this earlier in life.

[Poundwise]

Thanks for the further input.  The weather's been unseasonably warm so nobody has needed gloves.  The problem with letting my son deal with the natural consequences of having no gloves has been:
- we established that he's too stubborn/foolhardy to notice cold, as our experiment with letting him wear shorts in the snow showed.
-  he's also the type to bike with his hands in his pockets rather than pay for gloves.  There can be fast traffic on some roads, slippery leaves on the sidewalks, etc. It wouldn't be safe.

In short, he's an ornery cuss.

Anyway, for now he has the use of the borrowed gloves, which I noticed the other day he misplaced but I'm not going to tell him where.  If he loses them, he's paying Papa $5, plus he must obtain a new pair to wear... whether he has to buy used, wear socks on his hands, learn to knit, wear mismatched, whatever.  I have warned Papa to not enable son with a new pair. 

Unfortunately, I have no control over Grandma, who is where the ornery came from.

[Kitsune]

I'm definitely in the camp of "let him buy them, or not, and deal with the consequences."

At what point do you start edging him to be a responsible adult?  13? 15?  by 18 it's too late.

12 seems like a good time to start, to me (if not sooner), and this is an inconsequential enough thing, but good learning experience.

That's the trick of parenting, ain't it.

'oh, they're too young for these consequences... oh, they're still too young... wait, they should be handling this by now, why the hell aren't they able to handle this??!'

[Cassie]

Natural consequences are the best. When my kids forgot their lunch or homework I did not bring it to school for them. They went without.I also didn't buy them expensive gloves, hats, etc because kids do lose things.

[mustachepungoeshere]

Unfortunately, I have no control over Grandma, who is where the ornery came from.

:D :D :D

[arebelspy]

Thanks for the further input.  The weather's been unseasonably warm so nobody has needed gloves.  The problem with letting my son deal with the natural consequences of having no gloves has been:
- we established that he's too stubborn/foolhardy to notice cold, as our experiment with letting him wear shorts in the snow showed.

Doesn't seem like he needs them, then.

-  he's also the type to bike with his hands in his pockets rather than pay for gloves.  There can be fast traffic on some roads, slippery leaves on the sidewalks, etc. It wouldn't be safe.

This isn't related to the glove thing.  Explain to him why this is dangerous, then let him make a choice.

You can't control him when he's out of your sight.  If he's going to ride a bike with no handlebars (or lead a nation with a microphone), he's going to do it, regardless of a glove thing.

Trying to solve the problem of "don't ride without being safe" by buying gloves fails miserably when Spring rolls around.

[Anatidae V]

Natural consequences are the best. When my kids forgot their lunch or homework I did not bring it to school for them. They went without.I also didn't buy them expensive gloves, hats, etc because kids do lose things.

my problem is with shit like sunscreen. The consequences won't hit until they're older, but do I risk losing them to cancer because i let them deal with natural consequences? No, I'll teach them to wear it or no outdoor play. PPE & safety matters.

This is a great cold weather point:

Thanks for the further input.  The weather's been unseasonably warm so nobody has needed gloves.  The problem with letting my son deal with the natural consequences of having no gloves has been:
- we established that he's too stubborn/foolhardy to notice cold, as our experiment with letting him wear shorts in the snow showed.
-  he's also the type to bike with his hands in his pockets rather than pay for gloves.  There can be fast traffic on some roads, slippery leaves on the sidewalks, etc. It wouldn't be safe.

In short, he's an ornery cuss.

Anyway, for now he has the use of the borrowed gloves, which I noticed the other day he misplaced but I'm not going to tell him where.  If he loses them, he's paying Papa $5, plus he must obtain a new pair to wear... whether he has to buy used, wear socks on his hands, learn to knit, wear mismatched, whatever.  I have warned Papa to not enable son with a new pair. 

Unfortunately, I have no control over Grandma, who is where the ornery came from.

This, exactly.

[shelivesthedream]

Speaking as someone closer to the child end, that moment of "Oh no, now I'm 'old enough to handle things' but have no skills to do so" is really rough. You HAVE to let your child make bad choices when the stakes are low. Yes, they will do stupid things, but you can't control them forever.

That said, there is a purpose to rules. Not arbitrary ones dished out without explanation, but ones designed to prevent genuinely dangerous "natural consequences". "You must wear gloves below a certain temperature" is a stupid rule. "You must have both hands on the handlebars at all times when cycling near traffic" is an excellent rule.

[TomTX]

Speaking as someone closer to the child end, that moment of "Oh no, now I'm 'old enough to handle things' but have no skills to do so" is really rough. You HAVE to let your child make bad choices when the stakes are low. Yes, they will do stupid things, but you can't control them forever.

That said, there is a purpose to rules. Not arbitrary ones dished out without explanation, but ones designed to prevent genuinely dangerous "natural consequences". "You must wear gloves below a certain temperature" is a stupid rule. "You must have both hands on the handlebars at all times when cycling near traffic" is an excellent rule.

Agreed thoroughly on your rule evaluation.

[Zamboni]

Love the "just use socks as gloves" suggestion!

I know many people will disagree with me, but I always think it's funny when parents say they "give" their kids and allowance but then are so proud at how they dictate that it be spent/saved/donated etc. Parents who do this always seem to pat themselves on the back about how they are teaching responsibility.

To me the only money you are truly giving them is the money that does not have a parentally dictated purpose. Otherwise, it seems like the actual lesson being taught is that the child does not really control his/her money . . . someone else actually controls it. How is that supposed to teach responsibility? And then the same parents get mad when the child leaves the home and doesn't save anything and instead goes into debt. "This is not what I taught you!" they lament.

It's often the same parents who "make" their child do homework first, and always check up on it, and congratulate themselves on being superior parents, and then get surprised when their perfect child goes to college and doesn't do one lick of homework since no one is making him do it. It's all just so misguided that it makes me laugh.

Children learn to save up when they are ready. I did it as a young child (8 years old?) saving my $1 per week until I had $10 to buy a particular item I wanted . . . but it was definitely a want. I never would have saved up $10 for gloves because I could put hands in my pockets. My son is 13 now and just this year showing he can save if he wants something expensive . . . at 8 he spent every $1 on a hotwheels car or candy.

Lost winter outerwear: replace from Goodwill.

Your husband probably thinks the whole thing is silly, btw, and that is why he loaned the gloves. He undermined you and now you have reduced authority in the eyes of your son. I agree with ARS that you two need to get on the same page because otherwise your child is learning that mom and dad can be used against each other and manipulated . . . actually from your later posts it's very clear the boy already knows that. You need to face the reality that you can't and shouldn't think you can control your husband, so getting on the same page probably means having a discussion out from your son's earshot and listening pretty seriously to what your husband has to say in this matter. You are trying to control way too much here.

[Txtriathlete]

I see a couple of things in this post. First, how to enforce a better sense of accountability (don't lose your stuff). Second how to have an appreciation for the value of the item (gloves cost $5). Third, how to value needs over wants (gloves vs. toys).

When you figure out the accountability thing please let me know. My two (11 and 13) lose shit Every. Single. Day. We've tried yelling, docking, extra chores, grounding, yada, yada. I'm just happy when they put my stuff (tools, etc.) back when they finish using them. I DO charge them if they lose or damage my stuff. Their stuff, depending on what it is, maybe.

Value is subjective as one earlier poster stated. I would probably pay for a nice set of gloves because I don't like cold hands. My son could care less (unless they have a Vikings logo on them!). He routinely wears shorts to school in zero degree weather - we live in South Dakota. We try to tell him to dress as if the car were going to break down, but in his mind he's going from heated building to heated car to heated building, so...  and the heat is the school is cranked pretty high.

Needs vs. wants is an ongoing dialogue and absolutely the most important part in my mind. This is the conversation that will shape him as an adult. Again it's going to come down to what he sees as a "need" - my son would not "need" gloves until I send him out to shovel snow. Does he "need" to save right now? And if so what for? I don't have a great answer here but this is where I would focus my intellectual energy.


Now where is that iPad charger I misplaced? :)

[Plugging Along]

This is such an interesting topic.   There are so many nuisances here which reflect the different parenting styles. 

My thoughts are if there is a potential danger or harm to the child, then too bad they need to pay for it.  It can get as cold as minus 32 here, so gloves, touque, boots, and scarves are mandatory.  Tha weather can happen anytime, so gloves or mitts, are a must to have.    In the cases where my child has lost it, which they had, then they have to immediately go out and rebut it.   My daughter 11) had a really nice pair of gloves she lost early on.   As a result, she worn ugly cheap gloves in double layers that we had lying around.   Then after Christmas, she used one of her gift cards to rebut another set of gloves.   She had the choice if she wanted to use the little stretchy mismatched mitts, or buy, and that was her choice, but the fact she has to have mitts is not a choice.   

She has broken or lost other things, if they aren't for her safety or healthy or is a requirement, then she doesn't have to replace it.  I would not let here not buy something she lost that is a need because she wanted a game.  To me being responsible is not only about paying for things but also knowing that needs come first. 

When she was really little, she microwaved a phone (long story) she had  o pay that back with her allowance before anything else, because it was the family phone and it had an impact. 

[Poundwise]

Given the continuing interest, I figure you guys would like an update on this. :D

So my big guy is still plugging along in his dad's $3 "borrowed" gloves. It is now wicked cold.  Every so often he gets ragged by one of us about the $5 he owes his dad, and he shoots us a look.  It is however a big help to the family that he gets himself to school and back independently.

My mother, who lives to undermine me, tried to give him another pair of gloves at Christmas!  But ha ha! they were too small for him so his little brother got them.  So life evens out... he lost the gloves that I hoped he would pass down to his brother, but now his brother has a nice new pair of his own to grow into.  (Strangely enough, my younger son, who is otherwise one of the most forgetful creatures on the planet, has not lost any winter clothing in years.  I think it is because he feels the cold so he always bundles himself up.)

This little scuffle taught us that the kids  have to set aside some of their allowance for necessities as well as pleasures, and that it probably will be time soon to have my oldest start buying some of his own clothes. I'm thinking that he should start buying pants, socks, shoes, gloves, hats, pens, and pencils, since these are typically the items that he abuses or loses.  Maybe I'll give him an extra sum each half-year, and go shopping with him on a basic shopping list (i.e. 3 pairs athletic pants,  3 pairs regular long pants, 8 pairs socks, etc.) He'll have to stay within this amount. Not sure if it would be a good idea to let him keep money left over because otherwise he'll get the cheapest possible items, but maybe that should be part of the learning process? He might find that if he gets the cheapo socks, for instance, that they worn quickly and then he'll have to waste money on new ones. 

Then he will have to pay for any replacements out of the partition of his allowance set aside for necessities. If he doesn't lose or wreck anything by the end of a season, he gets to roll some of the "necessities" money into his "wants" savings. Another benefit to him is that he will get to indulge his own fashion sense, such as it is.

I think the only real hitch in this plan is that like I said, I do like to pass his clothes down to his siblings and cousins.  It means that he is dressed in nice looking, good quality clothes, and they last well. But, he might not want to pay for extra quality that he won't benefit from. So I'm still working on the plan...

[Poundwise]

Love the "just use socks as gloves" suggestion!

I know many people will disagree with me, but I always think it's funny when parents say they "give" their kids and allowance but then are so proud at how they dictate that it be spent/saved/donated etc. Parents who do this always seem to pat themselves on the back about how they are teaching responsibility.

To me the only money you are truly giving them is the money that does not have a parentally dictated purpose. Otherwise, it seems like the actual lesson being taught is that the child does not really control his/her money . . . someone else actually controls it. How is that supposed to teach responsibility? And then the same parents get mad when the child leaves the home and doesn't save anything and instead goes into debt. "This is not what I taught you!" they lament.

It's often the same parents who "make" their child do homework first, and always check up on it, and congratulate themselves on being superior parents, and then get surprised when their perfect child goes to college and doesn't do one lick of homework since no one is making him do it. It's all just so misguided that it makes me laugh.

Children learn to save up when they are ready. I did it as a young child (8 years old?) saving my $1 per week until I had $10 to buy a particular item I wanted . . . but it was definitely a want. I never would have saved up $10 for gloves because I could put hands in my pockets. My son is 13 now and just this year showing he can save if he wants something expensive . . . at 8 he spent every $1 on a hotwheels car or candy.

Lost winter outerwear: replace from Goodwill.

Your husband probably thinks the whole thing is silly, btw, and that is why he loaned the gloves. He undermined you and now you have reduced authority in the eyes of your son. I agree with ARS that you two need to get on the same page because otherwise your child is learning that mom and dad can be used against each other and manipulated . . . actually from your later posts it's very clear the boy already knows that. You need to face the reality that you can't and shouldn't think you can control your husband, so getting on the same page probably means having a discussion out from your son's earshot and listening pretty seriously to what your husband has to say in this matter. You are trying to control way too much here.

I see what Zamboni says about being too controlling, and I agree that it is time to start letting go.  I'm trying. But I see benefits to first micromanaging, then letting go. The idea is that in the beginning, you model how the time and money budgeting is done, hopefully long enough for the kid to learn a good way to do things.  Then you let go, and maybe they go their own way, and they make mistakes, or find a better way than they were taught. But the point is that at least they know one working way to do things.

Anyway, my son long ago learned the lesson of not spending money on small things he wants in order to save up for one big thing he wants. Now he has to learn how to take responsibility for his necessities before his wants.

P.S. Husband is on the same page as me in general wrt personal responsibility, but he didn't want son to go out without gloves in the cold (I was originally inclined to let son suffer natural consequences.)

[arebelspy]

I see benefits to first micromanaging, then letting go. The idea is that in the beginning, you model how the time and money budgeting is done, hopefully long enough for the kid to learn a good way to do things. 

Modeling isn't explaining or demanding they do it or micromanaging. It's doing it yourself, as a model/exemplar.

[Poundwise]

I guess I used the wrong word. You are right, "modeling" is what would happen if I showed him our YNAB budget.

 "Teaching" is what I meant. He needs to be taught a budgeting technique that works.  Some kids are very observant/imitative and pick up on things by watching others.  That's not my boy; he learns through doing. I fully expect he will stop following my example once I let go. But just maybe, some day when he is grown and far away, he'll look at his messy financial situation and say to himself, "Why not try putting my rent money and beer money in separate envelopes like my mother said to do?"

Or, it might go like this:

“You know," said Arthur, "it's at times like this, when I'm trapped in a Vogon airlock with a man from Betelgeuse, and about to die of asphyxiation in deep space that I really wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was young."
"Why, what did she tell you?"
"I don't know, I didn't listen.”

-Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

But at least I will have tried.

[ltt]

Have not read through the posts, but I would not be buying any 12-year-old nice gloves unless I knew they were super responsible.  I know Walmart sells gloves for around $1 or $2 a pair.  That's what I had my boys wear.  That way if the gloves were lost, we wouldn't be out much money.  And we kept extras around the house.  For our daughters, who tend to be much more responsible for their personal possessions, I didn't mind spending a little extra on gloves.

[Captain FIRE]

I think the only real hitch in this plan is that like I said, I do like to pass his clothes down to his siblings and cousins.  It means that he is dressed in nice looking, good quality clothes, and they last well. But, he might not want to pay for extra quality that he won't benefit from. So I'm still working on the plan...

So why not provide him with an incentive to pass the items down in good shape?  For example, you could tell him that you will pay him X% (e.g. 10-15%) of the price of any item that is of sufficient quality (as judged by you) that his siblings can use after he is done with it. 

This little scuffle taught us that the kids  have to set aside some of their allowance for necessities as well as pleasures, and that it probably will be time soon to have my oldest start buying some of his own clothes. I'm thinking that he should start buying pants, socks, shoes, gloves, hats, pens, and pencils, since these are typically the items that he abuses or loses. 

Are you prepared for him to buy the wrong #, type, quality of clothes?  Do you have a plan for when the allowance is gone but he has no pencils for school?  I'm concerned this will just devolve down the same path as the gloves if you haven't thought it through thoroughly.

[College Stash]

My god. Buy the kid a pair of gloves lol and let him enjoy the money he has saved. He will be responsible enough later on regardless.

[Metric Mouse]

Or, it might go like this:

“You know," said Arthur, "it's at times like this, when I'm trapped in a Vogon airlock with a man from Betelgeuse, and about to die of asphyxiation in deep space that I really wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was young."
"Why, what did she tell you?"
"I don't know, I didn't listen.”

-Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

But at least I will have tried.

I love it.

[Goldielocks]

I think the only real hitch in this plan is that like I said, I do like to pass his clothes down to his siblings and cousins.  It means that he is dressed in nice looking, good quality clothes, and they last well. But, he might not want to pay for extra quality that he won't benefit from. So I'm still working on the plan...

Honestly,  if he buys something, it is his....   you can't demand that he buy X because of little brother, or even hand over Y to little brother (instead of giving to a friend) when he is done with it.

The only way I see that you can encourage better quality clothing, is to buy them (the things he purchased himself) at a typical used price, off him, if they are sufficient wear left and no damage (stains, tears)..  he may be incented then to take care of things, and to buy a bit better quality, OR to buy cheap and wear out everything....

[arebelspy]

I think the only real hitch in this plan is that like I said, I do like to pass his clothes down to his siblings and cousins.  It means that he is dressed in nice looking, good quality clothes, and they last well. But, he might not want to pay for extra quality that he won't benefit from. So I'm still working on the plan...

Honestly,  if he buys something, it is his....   you can't demand that he buy X because of little brother, or even hand over Y to little brother (instead of giving to a friend) when he is done with it

You can't demand, but you can buy it from him for cheap (or little bro can--make sure he's not getting ripped off), so he can put it towards replacements.

[Poundwise]

It's a good incentive to re-buy the clothes from him... except wouldn't I be paying twice for the clothes?

It would be okay if he were really earning the money to buy his clothes, but in the artificial system described here, I'm just giving him choice over how to spend the clothes money, and in return requiring him to use part of his allowance to pay for damaged and lost supplies.  So, I could increase the amount of work he does around the house and then increase his allowance. But to be honest, right now his schedule is pretty full and I'm okay the amount of work he does (takes care of himself, does a family chore daily, plus is my go-to guy for random help and babysitting.)

[Goldielocks]

It's a good incentive to re-buy the clothes from him... except wouldn't I be paying twice for the clothes?

It would be okay if he were really earning the money to buy his clothes, but in the artificial system described here, I'm just giving him choice over how to spend the clothes money, and in return requiring him to use part of his allowance to pay for damaged and lost supplies.  So, I could increase the amount of work he does around the house and then increase his allowance. But to be honest, right now his schedule is pretty full and I'm okay the amount of work he does (takes care of himself, does a family chore daily, plus is my go-to guy for random help and babysitting.)

If that is the way you feel, then don't include clothing in his allowance, buy clothing directly yourself.   How would you feel if your husband or MIL gave you money, then controlled what and how you could spend it?

IMO The allowance is just a transfer of money you are already spending on them, even if they did NOTHING I would still be , I treat it like the allowance my husband and I get -- some personal money for us to manage and spend on what we think is important.

I feel that transferring some of the money I spend on my kids, into their hands, to help them learn decision making about  money handling, is very useful.   For example, they have to pay for all of their own school field trips, or hot lunches,  with their allowance and plan in advance for school supplies, etc...pay for contact lenses (but not basic eye glasses) and their own monthly phone plans...  and yes, they have had to stay back at the school once when they forgot to pay up and the class went on the trip without them.  They get $40 per month...   and as they have more expenses as teenagers, they have to earn the difference themselves or do without.

I actually have a phrase that the kids are tired of... "you get an allowance because you are a part of this family...   family is important because we help each other out, not because we get paid"  [.. and therefore everyone has chores].   I refuse to pay for chores that family should do because they are part of the family, and helping out is NOT a choice... I am OK with them getting paid to help out grandparents or neighbors, or for unusual tasks that we would pay someone outside of family to do (rare).

For the work ethic, I encourage them to get paid work, accept on their behalf when they are offered babysitting jobs, and take them there, so they understand what it is about, etc.

[arebelspy]

It's a good incentive to re-buy the clothes from him... except wouldn't I be paying twice for the clothes?

If you are buying the clothes, dictate where they go (to brother). If he is (from his money), buy them back at a low price, or have little bro buy them (from HIS money).

You aren't paying twice, you're using some of little bros clothing fund to funnel over to big bros clothing fund, which makes sense, since big bros needs to be bigger, buying new, while little bro gets hand me downs.

[Poundwise]

Goldielocks and arebelspy (and everyone else!),  thanks a lot for your input. I'm still mulling it over, maybe will crunch some numbers to see if it makes sense to me that way.  Good idea about having younger son buy clothes from older son, though  I'm not crazy about giving younger son (age 7) too much choice.  I suspect that it would mean more shopping for me, if he rejects older son's clothing.  I think my basic conflict is that I will have to put up with some amount of wasted money and time in order to teach kids budgeting. I'd rather not see son waste his (my) money on a leather jacket or whatever, go around with holes in his pants, and then panic because he didn't save up enough needs money.  But probably I have to grit my teeth and put up with the mistakes which will be small at this age.

Very tired at end of day, so at the moment it seems like the right thing to do is just go back to yelling, assigning more work, and  randomly docking allowance when items are lost. 

P.S. Chores in our household are not directly linked to allowance, but it's one of several privileges that might get removed.

[Captain FIRE]

Goldielocks and arebelspy (and everyone else!),  thanks a lot for your input. I'm still mulling it over, maybe will crunch some numbers to see if it makes sense to me that way.  Good idea about having younger son buy clothes from older son, though  I'm not crazy about giving younger son (age 7) too much choice.  I suspect that it would mean more shopping for me, if he rejects older son's clothing. 

Hey, did I not suggest it first?!  Where's my credit?   ;)

Just because you set up an arrangement to buy back the older son's clothes, does not mean that you need to allow the younger son the choice of accepting/rejecting the clothes you provide (whether from the store or a buyback from OS).  Like different bedtimes, you can have different rules/arrangements for different ages. 

[Poundwise]

Hey, did I not suggest it first?!  Where's my credit?   ;)

Just because you set up an arrangement to buy back the older son's clothes, does not mean that you need to allow the younger son the choice of accepting/rejecting the clothes you provide (whether from the store or a buyback from OS).  Like different bedtimes, you can have different rules/arrangements for different ages.

You did, you did!! My bad... and thanks!!! :D

[NeonPegasus]

Thanks for the further input.  The weather's been unseasonably warm so nobody has needed gloves.  The problem with letting my son deal with the natural consequences of having no gloves has been:
- we established that he's too stubborn/foolhardy to notice cold, as our experiment with letting him wear shorts in the snow showed.

Doesn't seem like he needs them, then.

I wouldn't bet on this. I've been reading articles lately about how boys his age choose to wear shorts in spite of freezing their butts off because they feel it is the "in" thing to do. GA is a great place to see these issues. Girls wear long sleeves, pants and ugg boots to the first day of school because it's "fall" (nevermind that it's 90 degrees). And both genders wear clothes way inappropriate for the cold simply to look cool/cute. I am a firm believer in natural consequences but I also have to ensure that my kids don't kill themselves before they learn the lesson.

I see the OP has a solution, but here's my $0.02 in case you or other posters welcome another opinion. My daughters go to a private school that requires uniforms. One of the rules is they can't wear outerwear inside the school unless it has the school logo on it. So, when it's cold, they need a sweater. They have lost multiple sweaters over the years. Every time they lose one, they must pay for a replacement. There is a consignment store that lost uniform clothes are funneled into so when they need new clothes, we check the consignment store and they use their allowance to buy the replacement, often for less $ than getting a sweater embroidered with the logo.

I carry this policy to other items such as water bottles. It's amazing how their attitudes change when they've got skin in the game. My oldest looked down on consignment clothes at first but when she had to replace her sweater, boy didn't her attitude change. A $3 sweater was quite good enough for her. And they actually make an effort to find their stuff when they lose it.

So, if it was a situation of losing gloves, you better believe I'd require them to buy replacements. Whether they wore them would be more or less up to them but having them would be a requirement.

[iris lily]

What KMMK said.

And if I remember being a teenager, I drove my mother CRAZY by refusing to wear scarves and hats and gloves in Quebec winters. I survived. So did my peers, who were all doing the same thing.

Maybe open the door (in your own mind, not to him) that, when he decides his hands hurt and it's cold and waaaaaah life, he can do a few extra chores for quick money for gloves? Or open a conversation at that point; something like 'well, that IS a problem. What do you suggest as a solution?' and then see what he thinks is reasonable.

 Like, don't let him suffer and be like 'we are NOT buying you gloves, it's your problem if you have no money' (parenting 101: don't do that), but telling him 'this is your responsibility' and then taking care of him seems to do the exact opposite of what you're trying to teach.

To this day, at age 62, I  revel in the fact that I am an adult and can go outside on out patio in 40 degree F weather without shoes without my (now dead) mother yakking at me about how my feet are cold (not really)  that is a travesty! (Umm, ok mom) Same for gloves.

Kids have nuch better circulation that adults, we all forget that. And then some of us have betyer circulation and paddong :). Than others.



 

[arebelspy]

Thanks for the further input.  The weather's been unseasonably warm so nobody has needed gloves.  The problem with letting my son deal with the natural consequences of having no gloves has been:
- we established that he's too stubborn/foolhardy to notice cold, as our experiment with letting him wear shorts in the snow showed.

Doesn't seem like he needs them, then.

I wouldn't bet on this. I've been reading articles lately about how boys his age choose to wear shorts in spite of freezing their butts off because they feel it is the "in" thing to do.

...and?

That seems like a great lesson for them to learn.  Trying to fit in, and it came with a consequence (you were cold)?  Good, maybe you'll care less next time about what the "in" thing is.

Better small consequences early than big ones later (until you get to the biggest one that most people who conform do: wasting one's life trying to impress others).

[Poundwise]

To this day, at age 62, I  revel in the fact that I am an adult and can go outside on out patio in 40 degree F weather without shoes without my (now dead) mother yakking at me about how my feet are cold (not really)  that is a travesty! (Umm, ok mom) Same for gloves.

Kids have nuch better circulation that adults, we all forget that. And then some of us have betyer circulation and paddong :). Than others.

Hee hee!  Iris lily, go put some socks on right now!

I carry this policy to other items such as water bottles. It's amazing how their attitudes change when they've got skin in the game. My oldest looked down on consignment clothes at first but when she had to replace her sweater, boy didn't her attitude change. A $3 sweater was quite good enough for her. And they actually make an effort to find their stuff when they lose it.

Thank you VBACmama and ltt, it's helpful to hear from moms of older teens. Yeah, I forgot about water bottles-- another sore spot.  I think that for the rest of the season,  my policy with respect to any necessary supplies that I bought for my son will be: "Lose it-- pay for a replacement." For now, I'll decide on whether son has to replace the lost item at the same quality, or whether I'll accept a cheaper replacement.

I'm trying to think out the budget/buyback program. Suppose we just start with $10 for gloves.  He may choose a $1 pair from Goodwill or a dollar store. Then he pockets the $9. He loses them, or they wear out, but he then replaces them for another $1.  As agreed, I buy them back for, say, $0.50 and they go to his little brother.  His little brother wears them out because they're cheap, and eventually I get another pair for him. So I'm out $10.50 plus the cost of replacement for brother's worn out cheap gloves. Son makes $8.50.

 Suppose he buys, instead, for a good quality pair on sale for $10. He loses them. Then he has to replace them out of pocket for another $10.  I buy them back for $5, his brother wears them, and they are passed down to my nephew. Then son is out $5, and I am out $15.

Suppose he buys the good gloves for $10, but does NOT lose them.  Then I buy them back for $5, etc.  Then son profits $5, and I am out $15.

The system is thus tilted towards son buying the cheapest items possible, unless I agree to a 90% buyback.  Then, if he buys the good pair, he could lose $1/gain $9, whereas I would be out $19. If he bought the cheap pair, he could make $8.90 and I'm out $10.90 plus cost of another pair for younger son. Buying cheap is still a better gamble, since he will profit whether he keeps or loses his gloves.

It's all a win compared to the current system, where I can expect to spend $20 on gloves, if oldest son loses a good pair and I get a new one for younger son. Of course, if I get dollar gloves for everyone as many have suggested, I spend even less, despite having to replace the gloves several times as they wear out. 

But, maybe this is the right thing to do for items that will be worn only 2 years before getting outgrown.  Much as I hate waste and planned obsolescence.  I want the ideal world, where I buy a handsome set of quality clothes once, and because they are worn by two boys, it's like paying half price.  But in fact I buy good clothes, they get ruined, then I have to buy them again.

Anyway, I reluctantly have to admit that I don't see much of a financial incentive for son-- or me-- to do anything but buy cheap gloves.  Of course, the cheap gloves are colder and not water resistant (the boys like to play in the snow).  Maybe I should just scrap the idea of giving a clothing budget right now, get cheap gloves for oldest son who doesn't care, charge him the nominal cost if he loses them, then buy warm gloves for younger son who does like warm hands and plays in the snow a lot. And the same for pants, water bottles, school supplies, etc.

[mustachepungoeshere]

Poundwise, can I just say I'm sorry you have to expend so much mental energy on this?

It seems so dreary.

I was never the kid who lost things. The only uniform item my mum had to replace out of schedule was my school tie because my grandmother inexplicably tried to iron it and it melted. That was more than 20 years ago (oh god, I'm getting old) and thinking about it now, I still get annoyed that I had to wear the ugly melty tie that day because my grandmother was touching things she shouldn't have (namely, electrical appliances). (She wasn't impaired or unwell in any way, she's still with us, she's just least practical woman on the planet.)

Regarding kids wearing shorts in winter to look cool, this is one benefit of Australian schools having compulsory uniforms.

Wear winter uniform (including tie and jumper) in winter, and summer uniform (including hat) in summer, or get suspended.

[NeonPegasus]

Poundwise, I have three daughters so I get wanting to be able to hand stuff down.

I do think you're making this a bit too complicated. I would look at it this way - expect to pay for one or two nice outfits (pair of gloves, whatever) for each son. With my girls, I look at it from the perspective that it is a kindness to allow them at least one opportunity to choose clothes that look nice with their body type and coloring and that fits their style. While I do expect to pass down outerwear, everything else is just a pleasant surprise, including gloves. I buy only one (good) pair of shoes at a time and they wear those shoes every day until they need to be replaced.

So, I wouldn't penalize your oldest based on the idea that the gloves could be handed down. I would simply have the expectation that you bought him gloves and he needs to maintain possession of one pair of gloves, whether or not he wears them. I would expect to pay for a new pair of gloves for your youngest. If your oldest ends up passing down the gloves, well, bonus for you.

For clothes in general, do not expect to hand anything down. Your life will be much better if you assume that the clothes will be completely consumed by the oldest. To keep costs down, buy what you can at consignment stores or cheap stores. Try to have two tiers of clothes - play clothes and nicer clothes - and make sure they change into play clothes when needed.

When my girls were younger, I bought tons of clothes on the last day of a mega consignment sale, when everything was 50% off. I'd get a whole wardrobe for $30. Whenever they rolled in the mud or dripped ice cream all down their tops, I was able to shrug it off because I'd paid $1 for it. I'd rather them be able to play and make messes without me getting upset that they've ruined something nice that, frankly, they couldn't care less about.

[Poundwise]

I know, I know, I'm overcomplicating!  It's not just a pair of gloves, you understand. What I'm trying to do is create an environment where my kids learn how to budget and take responsibility.  Some kids get it by nature.  I personally was one of those dollar-bill-ironing, bean-counting kids, so it's hard for me to understand how to deal with my son, who leaps before he looks, who craves novelty and eschews routine, and is hardy to physical discomfort until he reaches emergency status.

I haven't discussed it here before, but it is very important to me to teach my children how to deal with money, as I have near relatives who are very bad examples, spending on wants and unable to pay for needs.

Arebelspy, some tweens can be stoooooooopid!! They will make the same mistake, like going out under dressed, again and again until it becomes the parents' problem because they get chilblains which have to be treated, or wear down their immune systems, etc. Then they will go out and make the same mistake again.  And this is because they don't make the connection between a cause and the slightly distanced negative consequence. So that's why I have to come up with an immediate consequence.

Anyway, VBACmama, you've got it dialed down, so I will follow your advice. Fortunately son #1 already does get a lot of clothes passed down from my oldest nephew, but the rest of his clothes will have to be used or cheap from now on, too.

[Captain FIRE]

I agree with VBACmama that you're really overthinking it. 

Either you want to teach your OS the concepts of budgeting, planning ahead and you are willing to invest a bit of extra time, cost, and aggravation into it, or it's more important to maintain strict control of the budgeting and clothing.

You budget for a buy-back program to encourage better care of his things.  It can be done multiple ways, such as:
- Positive orientation: Here's a large allowance and I expect you to buy your clothes with it.  I'll buyback any clothes still good for your brother at the end.  Note: You can choose to dictate (in the beginning particularly) the # and type of clothes he buys, or let him completely have free rein.
- Negative orientation: Here's a much smaller allowance, but I will subtract the costs of any replacement items from it.

You can even take into consideration the expected buyback.  For example, here's $50/month for clothes.  This is the average of what I spend monthly on clothes for you, and includes the assumption that half of the clothes will be bought back at 20% cost.  If you don't take care of the clothes, you'll have to make up the difference through chores/job/birthday gift money, or buying more clothes from goodwill than I normally do.

From what I've read in this thread, you're not willing to step back and watch your son make mistakes and learn from the natural consequences, so I'd suggest holding off on this experiment for now.  It's ok, it's not for everyone.  My parents never did this for me and I can budget and plan just fine.  :)

[Kitsune]

I agree with not expecting hand-me-downs necessarily...

But there's also absolutely nothing wrong with saying "we see this as a minimal functional wardrobe (with a list of X pairs of pants and Y number of different kinds of shirts and gloves and hat and winter coat and the like), and we are willing to spend This Amount Of Money to provide it to you, you're old enough to have some input on how it's spent and what you prefer to wear. However, the expectation is that you maintain it. Losses, rips, etc require a replacement, which will come from your personal money (or from money left over from sales-shopping with the original amount, or whatever)."

Frankly, I think a buy-back system for clothes you subsidize is way overthinking and way complicating things.

[hunniebun]

This exact thing happened in my house, two lost (expensive) pairs of winter gloves in 4 months. We live where today's temp is -43 C with the wind chill and gloves are not optional.  After the second lost pair I told him he had to pay for new one's out of his own money despite that he is saving for goalie equipment.  He didn't complain and was just upset that his lack of responsibility with the gloves is keeping from his goal...and he is 7.

[golden1]

You can't have it both ways - if you want him to learn how to manage his own money you have to let him do so.

Agreed. 

I "might" buy him the super cheap cotton gloves you can get at Walmart or Primark.  That is what my daughter uses.  Basically just provide him the bare minimum necessity and if he loses them then it's no big deal. 

"- Positive orientation: Here's a large allowance and I expect you to buy your clothes with it.  I'll buyback any clothes still good for your brother at the end.  Note: You can choose to dictate (in the beginning particularly) the # and type of clothes he buys, or let him completely have free rein."

I REALLY like this idea and I think I am going to implement this with the teenager, except maybe do Craigslist or consignment for the buyback option since she only has a brother. 

[Plugging Along]

POUNDWISE, I see you are trying to be very mustachian by trying to accomplishing multiple goals with one solution.  However, in this cas I think you need to determine what is most important.  From your posts I see the following goals/constraints

Son to learn responsibility of taking care of things - not lose gloves
Son to learn to make spending choices - is it to save up for the game, decide IF he needs gloves, HOW much to spend on gloves
Quality of gloves - hand me downs to the youngest for YOU to spend less money

This is getting complicated as an adult, what do expect from a 12 year old.

My thought is, it's important to teach kids that needs come first so if you lose/break your needs, then they need to pay for it.     People here are on the fence of whether gloves ar needs are wants.  I assume that are a need, it does have to do with their healthy and keeping them safe.  Here is was -30 so it's a need.   I determine a need if child services could be called for it, or if there are rules at school, it's a need.  That's one battle I would pick.   Make him buy the gloves.

The type of gloves for hand me downs is not his problem.  I think this is where you are over thinking.  You could just say, based on the condition and value of the gloves at the end, you will buy it back.  Thing of it as if he brought it to consignment, they would look at the type of gloves (where they cheap ones) and the condition.   For hand me downs, I have two girls, there are certain things that I tell them I expect them to hand down (outwear, fancy dress clothes because they are meant to be used less often).   Everything else, is a nice to have.   My oldest will buy some of her own clothes, and those I say she may do what she want.   I don't buy back because I do pay for most clothes.

One example we did a buy back is on my child phones.   We sold her an old phone for $75 but told her when she is done with it, if it is still usuable then we will give her up to $25 back depending on time and condition.

I say pick what is really important and keep it simple.   If you make it too complicated he will not learn any of the lessons well. 

[arebelspy]

The kid is learning.

We parents are learning too.

Don't take it too seriously, any which way it ends up. 

Have a laugh, hug the kid, it'll all seem small in the end.  :)

[shelivesthedream]

Yes, tweens are stupid and sometimes fail to understand the natural consequences of actions and act accordingly, but the solution to this is to let the consequences happen and then join the dots for them. You can point out the chain of causality that they might not consciously think through.

And seriously, you need to simplify all of this and let go. Decide what the priority is (teaching your child lifelong lessons about responsibility vs saving a bit of money on one clothing item for your younger child... oops, guess I'm biased!) and act accordingly. It's like training a puppy - it might seem easier to just clean up after him now than put in the work to train him properly but it won't be so cute when a grown up dog pisses in your bed.