Author Topic: Mustachians in AUSTRIA  (Read 9989 times)

ChrisCambria

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Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« on: August 21, 2015, 08:47:06 AM »
Hello fellow mustachians!
Anyone out there in Austria or near Salzburg who is on the way to FIRE?
I always lived a pretty frugal but happy lifestile, but the discovery of the MMM blog a year ago opend my mind that this lifestile could free me from the need to work until 65. In May I followed a job offer from graz - a great city to live and study - to a village near salzburg. quite expansive place to live, but with a few ideas i manage to save about 60% of my paycheck. and the possibilities for leisure activities is amazing there, so many lakes and mountain trails to bike or hike are a cheap way to spend less while maximising life experience.

but it feels a bit strange to live a simple life when everyone around you throws their money out of their windows. expansive holidays, sporty cars and boats, fancy bars and luxurious houses or flats seem to be standard. sometimes this distracts me so much from my longtime goal that i get misleaded into stupid purchases that cost a few percent of my saving rate. usually MMM articles make me bunching my face and bring me back on track, but it would be even better to exchange ideas and backup motivation with like minded people.

if it happens that you are from austria and follow the same ideas or if you know how life is here:
- how do you apply MMM ideas into your daily routine?
- how do you deal with the people around you when your goals differ so much, do you tell them what you are up for or is it your little secret?
- what do you do to stay on track to achieve your goals?

happy to hear from you and your story
chris

larmando

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2015, 02:52:20 PM »
In Munich myself, which is not so far. Not too many problems with non-mustachians around, it just takes saying "that's too expensive" and making cheaper choices/proposing alternatives. Already not having a car and not getting too much house is half the success.

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College Stash

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2015, 06:27:08 PM »
Visited both of your cities this summer. While they are both relatively expensive, it'd totally be possible to FIRE in a reasonable amount of time in them.

MKinVA

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2015, 09:50:18 AM »
Chris, we have a saying here in the states: what's better than a boat? A friend with a boat. Learn to crew and thenjoy find a friend with a boat. We also have a saying: What is a boat? A hole in the water where you throw money. You just stick to your goals and sleep well at night knowing you don't have those debts and responsibilities.  You can always rent a sporty car for the weekend and get it out of your system.

larmando

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2015, 09:52:52 AM »
Not renting a sporty car for the weekend is the other half of the success! Told you! So easy! (Just joking) :) :)

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ChrisCambria

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2015, 02:01:01 PM »
Thank you for all your responses :) its good to get support from like minded people.
I agree with you that FIRE is possible here within a reasonable time. like always it is just a matter of choice and the strength of your desire. i have rented a car for the weekend before, it is dead cheap compared to ownership. for the costs of the yearly service/maintanance i get a nice new car including gas for 3,5 weekends and don't bother about taxes, fees, insurance...

Strange that after all the reading of MMM aricles i didn't applied the "oh, that is too expansive" into my language. and i haven't heared it from the people around me as well, i m sure they make funny clown-like faces when i say that!

are there ideas how MMM attidude and FIRE differ from US and Canada to Austria (except taxes, insurance,...) ?

larmando

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2015, 12:50:15 AM »
Yes, I also rent a car for weekends or sometimes for a week. Just not a sporty car. Another advantage is that if you're going as a group cost sharing includes the rental, while with your own car it wouldn't include cost for using it. There's a thread about differences, unfortunately in German. I believe the main changes is that almost all is done in taxable accounts, and you have to factor that out in the withdrawal rate. Pensions here are not invested in the market or at low expenses, have low guaranteed returns, and are only possible to withdraw when you're 67+.

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larmando

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2015, 12:56:21 AM »
Real estate is not too bad either, in many countries it has no capital gains tax after some years and property taxes are much lower than in the US. Holding it across borders can have some advantages as well, depending on cross countries tax treaties.

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ViennaBoy

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2015, 05:57:00 AM »
This post has finally motivated me to register in this forum. I thought I was the only one in Austria, after even the thread about differences in Germany didn't draw anyone out...

I live near Vienna and have done so for quite some time. I haven't lived anywhere else in Austria, so I can't say whether what I see applies everywhere, but the impression that I get is that all of the MMM messages about deliberate lifestyle design apply here just as well as elsewhere. We're not at your level of 60%, ChrisCambria, but here are some ways that I try to integrate MMM ideas into my life here in Austria:

1. Choosing deliberately where we live. This has two elements - (a) limiting our reliance on a car, and (b) financing.

(a) We specifically chose to live within sight of a train station and a bus station in order to keep our reliance on a car to a minimum. Compare the public transport just about anywhere in Austria to a similarly-sized town/city in most other countries, and I think Austria has a really good offer. Plus there are no social stigmas about public transport, at least not where I live. I do all of our usual errands (post office, supermarket, pharmacy, banking, etc.) on the way to or from work, or by foot/bike in our town.

(b) The place where we chose to live is one where the Wohnbaufoerdung (state funding for private housing) is really generous. There are different rules and systems but to keep it simple, Wohnbaufoerderung is essentially a loan from the state that is indexed to inflation or some nominal rate - in some cases, much of it is 1%. This will vary based on your state, but I think that you'll find that there is something on offer just about everywhere. You can get up to about 50% of your total costs covered this way if you do things right.

2. Using the outdoors. This is easy in Austria because the country has a big hiking culture - see Frugalwoods' comments on their website about how frugal hiking is. In winter, you can go in for cross-country skiing.

3. Biking. When I can, I ride my bike to work. That's 20 km each way, and do you want to know how much of that is not on a bike path, a track, or on roads without a dedicated bike path? About 500 metres. Try comparing that with some of the horror stories other forum members have to tell about having to cross multiple-lane roads, and you'll quickly see that Austria is a bike-friendly country. Again - at least where I live. It might be different in other parts of the country.

Do we tell anyone? No, but that's more to do with it being a way of living rather than a race to get out for me at least. How do we deal with others? To be honest, I don't think we do really... we're just plugging along, doing our thing, and I don't think anyone else really cares.

Is US-style FIRE do-able here? Probably not quite. The impression that I get is that FIRE here would involve working "with" or "in" the system a lot more to take advantage of the benefits that all of those tax euros generate. I'm not talking about exploiting the system, but there's no point planning on retirement without needing a state pension given that you are obliged to pay into one from the first day you clock on, for example.

ChrisCambria

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2015, 11:27:36 PM »
@laufen: expat and foreigners are welcome! you have the advantage that you recognice differences from your home country to austria! what are your learnings from these observations, any hints were your home country is more efficient with hard earned money than we austrians are? hope you enjoy your time here in this little country and that austrians treat you well, i know, we are not well known for being friendly to foreigners :(

Welcome ViennaBoy, great to read your comments and that austrians are among MMM readers. the way how i discovered MMM asured me that there will be more of us reading his blog.  it was am article in the "Wirtschaftsblatt". but so far i haven't met anyone or was able to invite people following MMM.
http://wirtschaftsblatt.at/home/boerse/investor/3846779/Pete-alias-Mr-Money-Mustache_Jeder-der-spart-gilt-als-verruckt
where did you find this blog?

1. the place to live was not really my choice. i followed a job offer and it was quite clear that i don't want to commute, so living anywhere but near office was never questioned.

1a. public transport here is really good, bus stop is only 50m away and serviced every 30 minutes. two years ago i bought a folding bike to take with me on bus and train trips. maybe my best investment so far, it gives so much joy and the possibillity to explore places + since that i haven't bought any inner city bus tickets.

1b. because i only rent out a room on a farm - it is dead cheap + entertaining - the wohnbauförderung is not applicable for me. but later when FIRE is possible wohnbauförderung will be interesting to consider: i plan to move to a cheaper area, owning will reduce the need for taxed dividends to pay the rent.

2. little to say to this point, after moving from graz to salzburg i noticed how much i missed nature and the time outside. being outside (river swimming in breaks, hiking after work, lakes for the weekend) gives me the feeling of pure luxury within my frugal lifestyle!

3. because i have no car i always take my bike, the good bike lane network make it possible to go into the city by bike or take longer tours to visit friends and family without useing on major roads. this saves the costs for public transport + is a good training to broaden the comfort zone.

state pension is a good point, for me this is lost money because i don't want to do office work until 65. i plan without this money because i would get it way too late. not that i don't like my job, but i prefer to spend more time outside with friends and family. but i havn't looked in detail about the costs of private health insurance when ER, maybe you are right that having a small job for a few hours is the better option, but there are still years until i reach this point ...
 

ViennaBoy

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2015, 02:18:58 AM »
It sounds like you have things pretty well sorted at the moment, Chris, so congratulations. I'm guessing though that you won't want to spend your whole life living in a rented room on a farm. That's when being deliberate in some of those decisions really starts to count - especially if you are looking at buying property, or starting a family, etc. one day. I don't think that that is any different from what our US colleagues have to do, but it's important to make the most of the advantages that Austria does give you. One big one is the Wohnbaufoerderung that I mentioned.

I'm not planning to work in an office job until I'm 65 either, but my point about the state pension is this: most of our US colleagues have to plan to have enough resources to get them through from the day they retire until the day they die. In Austria, it's a bit different: Most people live quite happily only on the state pension from the age of 60-65 until they die. If your state pension is going to be enough for you to live on, that means you have a key option that most our US friends don't: plan to have a big enough stash to cover the gap from the day you FIRE until the day your state pension kicks in (e.g. FIRE at 40, state pension at 65). For me, the Austrian model lends itself better to some sort of gradual FIRE - work full-time until something like 40, then work part-time doing something you enjoy more until 65 (you want to be outside? Fine, get a job as a park ranger or something), then retire fully. You HAVE to pay into the state pension, so you may as well take account of it in your plans. (There are also work-related insurance benefits - e.g. disability insurance, etc. that you have in Austria as long as you are in some kind of employment - stop working and you lose those or have to pay them privately, keep working at some minimal level and they're still there). Part-time work also has various tax benefits if you fall below the relevant thresholds (i.e. your after-tax pay-per-hour may work out higher than in a full-time job because the tax burden is less).

I'm not 100% convinced by it as a product and I'm not sure if they have changed the rules since I got mine, but I have one of these as part of my overall approach: https://www.ergo-austria.at/privatkunden/produkte/vorsorge-pension/staatlich-gefoerderte-zukunftsvorsorge/ Mine has a clause allowing me to start having it pay out tax-free after my 40th birthday if I go part-time or stop working. Not sure how that will play out in the end, and the fees are pretty intransparent unfortunately, but you might want to think about it as an option.

As to how I found MMM: I can't really remember. I kept finding links to MMM on other websites, but it took a while for me to start reading seriously.

ChrisCambria

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2015, 07:06:45 AM »
ViennaBoy, you are far ahead of me when it comes about ideas how to pay for living when you are retired! working part time sounds interesting when it comes to social benefits in austria. not sure if i want to use the stash for living and trust the state pension after 65. but it is definitly a strategy to have time for family at a much earlier time of your life!
FIRE seems so far ahead at the moment that i prefer to imagine how life will be when it is achieved and to concentrate on how to get there. a major goal on that track is to be flexible enough to adapt to any situation. another is to give my best at work in order to raise my income.

you are definitly right, one day when i will be grown up ;) i will probably want to enjoy the luxury of spending time with my family in a place we own! if i see an opportunity to start a house project in the meanwhile it would be a great opportunity. if i m capable of doing this? who knows - i want to find it out ... but this would be more an investment than a home, since living on a farm is really cheap.

one of my approach is that i take care for my finances by myself - so no products that mix insurance with capital savings. instead i invest in stocks of companies where i think they share some of my ideals (environmental friendly, ressource efficient, offering high quality products ...) . this is somtimes time consuming and there is always the risk that things can go wrong, but so far i haven't made any major mistake :) in 10 years so many things can happen, i m quite sure that there is not one single right way into FIRE, but there are many paths fitting individual lifestyles and personalities.

if there are any austrian students reading here: there is a program of the BMVIT that gives fundings for students who want to attend the FORUM ALPBACH. a great way to meet interesting people, talk with people you only know from newspapers and meet a lot of young talented students! contact me if you want to know more.

Able was I ERE

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2015, 03:08:30 AM »
We recently moved to Graz from the US for language / cultural reasons.  (Unfortunately, it will likely extend my time to FIRE due to the higher tax rates.)  Glad to "meet" others in the country seeking to FIRE.

We're still assimilating, but here are some comparisons to our life in the US suburbs, so far I've noticed:

Food (Toss-up / to be determined)
  • In the US, we lived right behind a cheap grocery store, supplemented with a CSA share and farmer's market fruit and vegetables, and an occasional Sam's Club / BJ's warehouse store shopping trip
  • Here, we have a choice of multiple grocery stores, but do almost all our fruit and vegetable shopping at the daily farmer's market that's a short walking distance away.  We're eating much fresher and better tasting food here, but it will likely be more expensive.

Transportation (Cheaper in Austria)
  • In the US, we walked/biked to our local grocery store, library, etc but needed our single car frequently to visit friends or go hiking.
  • Here, for 230EU / adult, we have a Jahreskarte for public transit in the city for an entire year.  We've also been being riding bikes and walking much more.  There are hiking trailheads accessible via public transit and a long river green pathway a short distance away.  We'll probably occasionally rent a car or go on a train for longer trips, but the total costs will be much less than our previous costs

Taxes (Much more expensive in Austria)
  • In the US, there are a ton of deductions available for savvy savers and parents: 401k, traditional IRA, child credit, etc.  My effective tax rate including health insurance / social security taxes was ~30%.
  • Here, typical income taxes / social / health insurance are ~50%.   After I do my taxes at the end of the year, I'll post a full comparison of US versus Austria taxes.



Anyone interested in a meetup? 

ChrisCambria

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2015, 07:14:10 AM »
Hello to Graz - great to hear that there is someone in this great City seeking FIRE :) I lived there for 11 years and enjoyed it! beside the higher tax rates i m sure the city offers enough opportunities for a low cost lifestyle with plenty of experiences and happiness.
My favourites are:
- a walk through Leechwald, Rettenbachklamm up to the Stephanienwarte is a full Sunday experience right infront of the doorstep. no transportation needed and you are in the middle of nature :)
- Compare the prices at the farmers markets. in general Lendplatz is cheaper, but there are some products (fresh Applejuice!!!!) which are cheaper at Kaiser Josef Market. Adapting your kitchen to seasonal fruits and vegetables reduces costs as well because you buy when things are plentyful and avoid the time when farmers can charge you any price they want because it is a rare good (the first tomatoes in early spring cost about 8€/kg for about two weeks-pure luxury at this time)
- along the river Mur there are many fruit trees where you can get a free harvest. i know a guerilla gardener who plants peach trees there as well, so keep your eyes open when you walk there in search for a free snack.

Sounds like the biggest difference is the tax system, maybe the right answer to this is to think twice before you spend your hard earned money :)

Meetup sounds good! since the three of us live in different cities with roughly similar distances there is no preference where to meet ... but next week i will decide if i visite graz on one of the next weekends - i will let you know!

klash

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2015, 04:59:56 AM »
Hey! I might as well present myself here too.

I'm a swede, living in Graz since two years (as my girlfriend is from here). I'm not a very hardcore mustachian, but I had an intense time reading every single blog post a while back and I'm all ears for ways to keep the costs down here.

We're about to build a house just outside Graz, so if anyone have any good tips for saving in this area it would be interesting to hear about. We're gonna do as much as we can ourselves and use the Förderungen we can get, but I'm sure there are things we don't know about.

And as for taxes, I have really no idea how it works here. My girlfriend says it's optional (?) and that she haven't done it for 5 years or so. I'm sure there are ways where we could get some money back there. Anyone with a bit of insight?

Meetup would be interesting!

Rightflyer

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2015, 06:22:47 AM »
Sorry, I do not want to hijack this thread but I have to make a comment about the writing here.

I have just read all of the above posts out to Ms. Rightflyer (a journalism major and published writer).
We are, quite frankly, shamed and humbled by all of you.
Not for your frugality but for your use of the English language. As evidenced above, your written English outshines many native speakers. You use colloquialisms and idiomatic expressions sparingly but effectively. Your sentence structure is almost always perfect.
When we have travelled in certain Northern and Central European countries (specifically Norway, Finland, Holland, UK, Germany, Switzerland and Austria) we have always marvelled at how well English is spoken. Now we see that you write better than us as well.

Back on topic, while our future FIRE plans tend more to Southern Europe due to cost of living realities, we could be swayed into moving north if the numbers worked. We will follow this thread with interest. If any of you can post COL numbers we would be grateful.

I shall not interject again but I am now following the thread; as much for the writing as for the content.



ChrisCambria

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2015, 11:29:06 PM »
Hej to all!

sounds like there is a small but growing community of MMM followers in Graz :)

has anyone of you ever been at a meeting? it seems like it is an informal come together in a park where everyone arrives by bike and that there are always loads of people doing picknick ... if there is a meeting in Graz i suggest a luxurious place: the Burggarten - the former private garden of emeror Friedrich2. quiet and a little bit hidden, but one of my favourite places in Graz :)
since it would be a much smaller meetup than the events in US i would also suggest a that each of us presents a gadget, habbit or concept he/she uses in order to be more badass on the way to fire ...

@ klash: there is a tool called STEUERAUSGLEICH which you can do online at finanzonline.bmf.gv.at find more infos here: https://www.bmf.gv.at/steuern/arbeitnehmer-pensionisten/arbeitnehmerveranlagung.html
it is a job i don't really do with pleassure, but it is definitly worth the money! i had years where i got more than 1000€ back for about an hour of paperwork. if you don't like to do it yourself, you can pay a Steuerberater to do it for you.

there are many ways of keeping the costs of a house down. first of all is to think about the size? if you reduce the space for 10% you not only safe 10% of investing sum, but also 10% of yearly heating, insurance, maintainance ... but this discussion would fill a seperate threat! lets talk about it at a meetup!

@ rightflyer: thank you for your compliments about the language, don't you think that reading all of MMM posts is a good way of practicing the language? what do you mean with COL numbers?

ViennaBoy

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2015, 02:32:59 AM »
Thought I'd just chime in again here.

On the taxes question: What is optional is doing your tax return, not the paying of the taxes! The difference to the US is that Austria operates a pay-as-you-go system - so you're automatically paying in the maximum amount that you would have to based on your wage, and then you can apply for a refund after the end of the year (it is possible to apply for the refund to be deducted in advance based on a past tax return, but that's messy). It's really easy and can really pay off, especially if you have a mortgage, kids, switched jobs or got a pay rise during the year, make donations to charities, pay Kirchensteuer, etc. The Arbeiterkammer has some great info on it. Honestly, I find it really easy to do once you've read through the relevant documentation, as all of your wage details are entered automatically by your employer; all you have to do is put in the amounts that you can offset from tax and remember to collect the receipts during the year. As ChrisCambria mentioned, it takes less than an hour and I'd like to see any other job with the 1000 EUR after tax per hour pay rate he mentioned!

For those of you who are currently earning below the 25% tax threshold (or are not earning at all), be aware that there is another form that you can use to get your KESt refunded (this is called the "Regelbesteuerungsoption" because what you do is apply for your income from interest to be taxed as part of your normal income - if you work, the 25% KESt will normally be lower than your normal tax rate, but not always). See here: https://www.bmf.gv.at/steuern/Besteuerung-inl-sowie-im-Inland-bez-Kapitalertraege.html

As to the comparisons with the US that have been mentioned: I find it hard to do a real numbers comparison because everything seems to be ridiculously cheap in the US if you take the numbers that get thrown around at face value. Food = Cheap. Taxes = Cheap. Electricity = Dirt cheap. What I do see though is that the Austrian system removes a lot of the worry. Emergency fund? How about unemployment benefits at 55% of your last wage for five months and then a minimum wage until you find a new job? Medical costs? How about care for everyone, no matter what your conditions? Two-car families? Sure, they exist in Austria as well, but I would think that most people living in towns or cities in Austria can live happily with one.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 03:13:03 AM by ViennaBoy »

ViennaBoy

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2015, 03:07:42 AM »
Back on topic, while our future FIRE plans tend more to Southern Europe due to cost of living realities, we could be swayed into moving north if the numbers worked. We will follow this thread with interest. If any of you can post COL numbers we would be grateful.


The Austrian statistics bureau has some really good stats - unfortunately, it only does this survey once every five years, so these figures are from 2010, but if you add +20% or so (that was the rough increase between 2005 and 2010), you're probably not far off the mark:

http://www.statistik.at/web_en/statistics/PeopleSociety/social_statistics/consumption_expenditures/household_budget_survey_2009_2010/055862.html

Here's the comparison from 2005 to 2010:

http://www.statistik.at/web_en/statistics/PeopleSociety/social_statistics/consumption_expenditures/household_budget_survey_2009_2010/055863.html

They also have some good stats on average wages:

http://www.statistik.at/web_en/statistics/PeopleSociety/social_statistics/household_income/029120.html

Rightflyer

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2015, 05:54:08 AM »
what do you mean with COL numbers?

Sorry. COL=cost of living

We were just interested in what the basic costs of living in Austria were.

Rightflyer

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2015, 05:59:12 AM »
Back on topic, while our future FIRE plans tend more to Southern Europe due to cost of living realities, we could be swayed into moving north if the numbers worked. We will follow this thread with interest. If any of you can post COL numbers we would be grateful.


The Austrian statistics bureau has some really good stats - unfortunately, it only does this survey once every five years, so these figures are from 2010, but if you add +20% or so (that was the rough increase between 2005 and 2010), you're probably not far off the mark:

http://www.statistik.at/web_en/statistics/PeopleSociety/social_statistics/consumption_expenditures/household_budget_survey_2009_2010/055862.html

Here's the comparison from 2005 to 2010:

http://www.statistik.at/web_en/statistics/PeopleSociety/social_statistics/consumption_expenditures/household_budget_survey_2009_2010/055863.html

They also have some good stats on average wages:

http://www.statistik.at/web_en/statistics/PeopleSociety/social_statistics/household_income/029120.html

Thanks ViennaBoy

How do these numbers compare with a mustachian's?

ViennaBoy

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2015, 07:19:28 AM »
How do these numbers compare with a mustachian's?

I can't speak for others, and I make absolutely no claim whatsoever that we lead a totally optimised life, but here's roughly how we compare:

Using the calculation rates explained on that page, our household expenses should be:

Per full adult: 1880 (total consumption expenditures) + 283 (the figure given for "not for private consumption") = 2163 euros per full adult. For the sake of the argument, I'm going to assume 10% price increases across the board since 2010, so 2163 * 1.1 = 2379.3

Our household = 1.8 full adults (i.e. using the percentages that Statistik Austria does = 1 for the first adult, 0.5 for the second, and 0.3 for each child under 14 - we actually have two children, but one is so young that he hasn't really caused any costs yet).

2379.3 * 1.8 = 4282.74 euros per month

We spend almost exactly 70% of that figure (just over 3000 euros per month), despite some costs that are much higher than those in the table (e.g. childcare eats just under 400 euros per month). With some thought, I reckon you could easily beat those numbers from Statistik Austria. I'm sure some of the others who have posted here will be able to tell us how!

Frank Einstein

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2015, 04:41:40 AM »
Just wanted to chime in with a quick hello from a Scottish person who's been in Graz 15 years now. A meetup sounds like it could be fun - I've spent so long thinking I was the lone Mustachian here in Austria! :-)

Moonwaves

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2015, 11:02:01 AM »
Not Austria but close enough that I thought I'd mention it. Well, close for some - maybe not those of you in Graz. :)

Anyway, arebelspy and his wife will be in Munich towards the end of Oktober. I've posted in the German thread so that perhaps someone who lives in the area will start a meetup thread soon. Keep an eye out.

ChrisCambria

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Meetup in Graz on October 9th
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2015, 01:37:07 PM »
since there are so many mustachians in graz who seem to be eager for a meetup ... this weekend would suit me well, because i m in the city anyway! what about a meeting in the afternoon? according to the weather forecast friday (9.10.2015) would be best, lets say between 4pm and 6pm?

i would suggest an outdoor place with roof since rain is possible. i know pavillions in stadtpark, augarten, volksgarten and the schlossberg. but there is also a lovely porch at the garden entrance in burggarten which i would prefer. if it rains too much we could walk to parkhouse to warm up and have a beer.

plenty of time to talk hard facts about COL in austria, cheap building constructions, ways to optimice tax payments and possibilities for free leisure in styrian countryside and much more. who is in?

PS: sorry for being away a while - i followed a mustachian principle: work your ass off! :)

Able was I ERE

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Re: Meetup in Graz on October 9th
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2015, 09:50:54 AM »
I'm up for a meet-up this Friday.  Can't do 4pm.  How about later at 5pm-ish?  (I'll just arrive late if others meet at 4pm.)

If Friday doesn't work for others, perhaps Saturday at 4-6pm?  (The weather forecast looks better now.)

The locations looks nice.  I haven't had a chance to check out the Burggarten yet.

klash

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2015, 02:23:41 PM »
I'm also sorry for being a bit absent here, but I'm totally up for a meetup. Unfortunately I already have plans for Friday, but Saturday would suit me good. Would that work for you? The weather looks pretty bad for the next days, so I would suggest we meet at a pub or whatever. Is that ok with you guys, or is that too unmustachian for you? I would suggest The Pub (best mexican food in the city) at 19.00 at Saturday or so, but I'm open for whatever!

ChrisCambria

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2015, 03:21:32 PM »
great, lets meet on saturday! i m fine with both suggested times - one of you needs to be a bit flexible ;)

as for the location, meeting outside will be cold and wet ... and i don't want to get a cold! if the pub offers a quiet place to sit and talk it should be fine for me, and i doubt that at this time pubs are crowded and loud! although i ve never been there i would be fine with the Pub. please post the adress that noone can say the couldn't find it!

 there will be the three of us and all the other readers who haven't com out of the shade :)

Fi(re) on the Farm

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2015, 04:09:00 PM »
I'm excited that there's a mustachian community in Austria - I live in NY but was in Vienna, Linz and Salzburg for my cousin's hockzeit this summer and was blown away by the amazing transportation system (and the low cost of Gruner).  Between buying a year pass for transportation and the designated bike lanes in Vienna and Linz I was very impressed.  I've been trying to convince my husband ever since that we need to FIRE in the Salzkammergut, or at least Linz where my cousins all live.

Able was I ERE

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Graz, Austria meet-up on 10th of October
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2015, 04:08:10 AM »
Saturday at 19:00 works for me.  Ideally, I'd like a quiet spot as well.  I believe klash has suggested The Pub, Mariahilferstraße 20, 8020 Graz (south of Lendplatz and north of Mariahilferplatz).
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 10:55:05 AM by Able was I ERE »

klash

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2015, 05:06:50 AM »
That's the one I suggested, yes. I'm totally open for doing it earlier on Saturday or at another place as well. Surely there are quieter places than The Pub, so I'm fine with whatever!

Able was I ERE

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Austria meet-up 10-Oct, 19:00 at Café Centraal in Graz
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2015, 08:59:28 AM »
I suggest Saturday, 19:00 at Café Centraal, Mariahilferstraße 10 (near the Kunsthaus).  It's supposed to be fairly quiet. 

I'll be wearing / carrying a bright yellow jacket and an orange winter hat.  PM me for a cell phone number if you think you'll need help finding us.  Looks like we should have at least three people: klash, ChrisCambria and myself.

ChrisCambria

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2015, 09:18:06 AM »
Great to meet u at cafe centraal, i ll wear a blue hoodie and wait at the bar. make sure that your girlfriends come along as well if they are interested in FIRE!

klash

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2015, 07:56:33 AM »
Ok, I'll see you at Centraal at 7! I'll be wearing a orangebrownish jacket.

Able was I ERE

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2015, 12:55:33 AM »
It was a pleasure to meet you, klash and ChrisCambria!  We meet up and chatted for way too short of time, discussing:
  • How we'd learned of, decided to try to become FI
  • What we do for a living
  • What our current savings rates were
  • What our significant others think of our plans
  • How we feel if our stock portfolio drops
And lots more.  Looking forward to meeting up again next time ChrisCambria comes into town, if not before.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 10:54:52 AM by Able was I ERE »

klash

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2015, 08:06:18 AM »
Likewise! Let's try to make it into something regularly!

Frank Einstein

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2015, 10:17:34 AM »
Likewise! Let's try to make it into something regularly!

Sorry I missed you - I'll be there next time.

ChrisCambria

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2015, 02:59:58 PM »
Thank you for the interesting conversation! Great that you summarized the key points.

I take away a little insight in life and values of you and how you work out your way to your goals. it seems that a country with a high level social security system financed by (income) taxes makes saving for retirement a little more challenging, but with a few adaptions to the american way from MMM it should be achieveable in acceptable timespan. would be interesting to talk to people who reached FIRE the MMM style in austria or a compareable country.

however it was great to meet people who share similar ideas about life, experience and finance. for sure i will let you know when i come back to the city next time to meet again.

@ klash: i m going to prepare a few lines about my perspective of efficient and cheap planning of buildings, but it might take a week or two. hope you can wait that long!

klash

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2015, 01:11:33 AM »
Sure Chris, thanks!

What would be good for me to know now though would be a bit about the general building rules for Austria (for example what room height counts as floor space, how much window area is needed and how many fire escapes do we need to have) as I'm meeting our architect in Sweden tomorrow evening. Do you know of any website that lists this in a good way?

(I think we can do the rest of this conversation privately)

Matthias

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2015, 01:25:41 PM »
Very happy to see fellow Mustachians here in Graz and Austria in general - a good reason to finally start looking at the forum more often :).

First of all a big big thank you to @ViennaBoy for pointing out the "Regelbesteuerungsoption" for the KESt - I did not know something like this existed and thought the 25% cannot be easily avoided (apart from some private retirement funds...)!! Although it is not very useful now, it definitely is for a possible FI(RE) future.

Apart from this, are there any more meet ups in Graz to join?

klash

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2015, 12:00:38 AM »
Hello Matthias and welcome to the discussion (which obviously is a bit non-existent at the moment...)

There's no new meet-up planned as far as I know, but I'm up for it. How about we would make it into some sort of winter sports activity when the weather allows for it? Like ice skating or cross-country skiing or so?

ViennaBoy

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2015, 02:24:05 AM »

First of all a big big thank you to @ViennaBoy for pointing out the "Regelbesteuerungsoption" for the KESt - I did not know something like this existed and thought the 25% cannot be easily avoided (apart from some private retirement funds...)!! Although it is not very useful now, it definitely is for a possible FI(RE) future.


No problem - I was pretty pleased when I realised what that means as well - to my mind, it makes "thesaurierende" funds a very attractive option for as long as I am earning. The instant that I stop working, I can start selling those off slowly, and avoid the KESt using the Regelbesteuerungsoption (as long as I stick below the limits) - and voila - tax-free investing in Austria!

Matthias

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2015, 01:19:33 AM »
Damn, forgot to activate the notification - glad to see that the thread did not die :)

@klash: always up for some winter activities (as soon as winter decides to pass by...), I do not have ice skates/cross country skis though, I am more into ski touring or downhill skiing.
Alternatively I would suggest a hike, e.g. up the Schöckl, taking the long way from the west. Really nice in winter if the fog takes over the valleys, with or without snow, more of a walk, good for some spontaneous weekend activity, nothing special, just good to get outside without a long journey, and a lunch at one of the huts on the top or some tea/food you bring. Could be an idea for a meet-up?


First of all a big big thank you to @ViennaBoy for pointing out the "Regelbesteuerungsoption" for the KESt - I did not know something like this existed and thought the 25% cannot be easily avoided (apart from some private retirement funds...)!! Although it is not very useful now, it definitely is for a possible FI(RE) future.


No problem - I was pretty pleased when I realised what that means as well - to my mind, it makes "thesaurierende" funds a very attractive option for as long as I am earning. The instant that I stop working, I can start selling those off slowly, and avoid the KESt using the Regelbesteuerungsoption (as long as I stick below the limits) - and voila - tax-free investing in Austria!

Unluckily not that easy with the "thesaurierenden" funds as you think - there are still the "ausschüttungsgleiche Erträge" which are taxed once a year: the companies have to report the dividends/gains from selling shares etc. at the end of the fund's business year and those gains are also taxed with the KESt. This raises the taxable acquisitions price, and when selling the funds the taxes you paid before are deducted. Normally the brokers have a separate list for the taxable values. See also here: http://www.konsument.at/geld-recht/investmentfonds-und-kest. Regelbesteuerungsoption still applies though.


Poor Daniel

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2017, 12:42:39 PM »
Servus from Vienna,

would love to get to know more people from around the area and exchange ideas :)

I'm 27 and and my current networth is around 13 years worth of annual expenses.

greets

« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 04:35:07 AM by Poor Daniel »

Able was I ERE

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2017, 06:30:33 AM »
Servus, Daniel!  Come to Graz and say hello!

Sounds like you are well on your way to FI.  There aren't many Austrians on the forum -- what attracted you to MMM / FI?

There might be a MMM/FI meet-up in Vienna soon.  I'll post details here if it happens.

Poor Daniel

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2017, 07:04:52 AM »
Thanks!
Will be in graz on the 10th of june :)
the independence
would be cool to meet some guys in vienna!

Matthias

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2017, 01:37:15 PM »
Grüß dich Daniel, you are always welcome here in Graz, we have small and fine community here - and it is always good to hear about other Austrians around!

@Brian - let me know about a possible Vienna Meetup as well please!

Able was I ERE

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Re: Mustachians in AUSTRIA
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2017, 03:41:24 PM »
FI meetup in Vienna on Sun. 25-Jun afternoon.  Exact time / location TBD.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/meetups-and-social-events/vienna-austria-meet-up-sun-june-25th/
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 01:47:25 PM by Able was I ERE »