Author Topic: Your market predictions for 2024  (Read 13996 times)

duyen

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Your market predictions for 2024
« on: November 22, 2023, 06:46:28 PM »
Given where Fed is at and other considerations like elections and the fact that market still recovering, what is your best guess on return for SPY in 2024?

ATtiny85

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2023, 07:01:07 PM »
It’s going to go up a bunch, down a bunch, stay the same a bunch, but ultimately end up a few percent. None of those factors mentioned in the OP have anything to do with it.

VanillaGorilla

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2023, 09:33:30 PM »
To paraphrase my ninth grade Spanish teacher, the market will go up. Or down. Or stay the same.


reeshau

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2023, 09:53:07 PM »
“I think they will fluctuate.”  -- John D. Rockefeller (sometimes attributed to J. P. Morgan, and others)

I’m confident people will solve problems and become more productive over time.

I’m confident markets will allocate the rewards of that productivity to investors over time.

I’m confident in other people’s overconfidence, so I know there will be mistakes and accidents and booms and busts along the way.

It’s not detailed, but it’s good enough.

--Morgan Housel, Same As Ever


GilesMM

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2023, 10:01:10 PM »
Could be a huge drop coming this year.

ATtiny85

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2023, 04:47:05 AM »
Could be a huge drop coming this year.

So then 2024 gets a lower entry point. Similar to 2019 and opposite of 2022. (Market swings quickly fade from memory. I only recall December 2018 dip because I made some taxable moves.)

Ron Scott

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2023, 06:18:24 AM »
The post-Great-Recession era—with its signature free money—is over. So if you grew up investing in this era recognize you likely have a false sense of security with the stock market.

In 2024 US stocks will be up 5% or so and bonds yields a tad lower than today. 6040 is back!

The big unknowns for the future are A) if and when AI will start yielding its massive productivity pop, and B) whether The West will dominate the technology. 2023 revealed both potential and challenges. But if things play out right: Happy Days are here again.

Thinking about Q* so…
« Last Edit: November 23, 2023, 09:21:12 AM by Ron Scott »

The Beebsta

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2023, 01:51:12 PM »
It’s going to go up, down and sideways…. Quite a few times and not necessarily in that order!

GuitarStv

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2023, 02:51:10 PM »
Tonight I say markets will move forward, not backwards.  Upwards, not forward.  And always . . . twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!

harvestbook

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2023, 07:41:22 AM »
I predict I'd be wrong if I bothered to predict.
I don't care and it really doesn't matter that much.

Dibbels81

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2023, 08:29:08 PM »
Feds will soon signal rate cuts. Market rallies in early 2024, followed by a correction in the 2nd quarter. Election muddles the market for a while, but a strong 4th quarter ends with the year up ~18%. Book em, Danno.

Wintergreen78

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2023, 10:47:40 PM »
I’d guess about 10% up, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was up 30% or down 20%, or anywhere else in between.

Telecaster

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2023, 12:56:11 AM »
I have no idea.  And neither does anyone else.

Captain Cactus

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2023, 04:58:53 AM »
All the “we can’t predict the future” posts are boring.  OP asked for predictions, which is just another fun way to shoot the shit.  If you don’t have a prediction, maybe don’t reply?

My prediction, market earns 7% with lots of volatility, which isn’t that great when comparing to money markets right now.  Juice isn’t worth the squeeze, but then again maybe just set in the index and forget it. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2023, 08:37:25 AM »
All the “we can’t predict the future” posts are boring.  OP asked for predictions, which is just another fun way to shoot the shit.  If you don’t have a prediction, maybe don’t reply?

My prediction, market earns 7% with lots of volatility, which isn’t that great when comparing to money markets right now.  Juice isn’t worth the squeeze, but then again maybe just set in the index and forget it.

Prickly response Cactus.  :P

Dibbels81

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2023, 09:02:32 AM »
All the “we can’t predict the future” posts are boring.  OP asked for predictions, which is just another fun way to shoot the shit.  If you don’t have a prediction, maybe don’t reply?

My prediction, market earns 7% with lots of volatility, which isn’t that great when comparing to money markets right now.  Juice isn’t worth the squeeze, but then again maybe just set in the index and forget it.

Thanks for that. I fear that this forum may degenerate into a version of Bogleheads, the internet version of people clutching their knees to their chest, manically rocking back and forth while mumbling "past performance is not indicative of future results."

reeshau

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2023, 09:51:31 AM »
Personally, I invest in individual stocks, so I care much more about my individual companies than the market overall.  The market mood can influence company moves, but real business news like AI, acquisitions, drug approvals, housing market, etc. move things much more for me.  Market movement is useful as a long-erm benchmark, to judge if the effort is worth it.  Not a lot more.

I'm more a *shrug* about it, than thumping the Random Walk Bible.

waltworks

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2023, 01:33:30 PM »
Random walk that trends up.

Invest accordingly.

I personally have been just sticking money into money market funds given that ~5.3% is good enough for me and that I'm looking to buy another house sometime soon.

That said if I didn't plan to need the cash, I'd be plugging it into the market as usual.

-W

VanillaGorilla

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2023, 09:35:12 AM »
All the “we can’t predict the future” posts are boring.  OP asked for predictions, which is just another fun way to shoot the shit.  If you don’t have a prediction, maybe don’t reply?

My prediction, market earns 7% with lots of volatility, which isn’t that great when comparing to money markets right now.  Juice isn’t worth the squeeze, but then again maybe just set in the index and forget it.

Thanks for that. I fear that this forum may degenerate into a version of Bogleheads, the internet version of people clutching their knees to their chest, manically rocking back and forth while mumbling "past performance is not indicative of future results."
Heh we definitely have some forum members already there. Just for fun I'll offer my prediction.

I think that we'll see an average (say 10%) return for the S&P500 in 2024. Inflation will continue to recede, we'll have a 'soft landing', pessimism will prevail but market fundamentals will be strong. The Fed will hold interest rates constant. The housing market will stay frozen, but corporate profits will be good, employment high, consumer spending strong.

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2023, 09:36:19 AM »
I predict that there will still be a stock market in 2024.

Katmandew

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2023, 10:07:58 AM »
I love these questions!  It will give me a chance to journal my thoughts now so I can review in a year and see just how wrong I am!  Knowing this, I do not plan on taking/making any significant changes to my asset allocation!  That said:

2024 will be another interesting year.  The U.S. Treasury Dept will have roughly $8 Trillion +/- in debt instruments repricing, in addition to another $2 Trillion in "new" debt issued.  A trillion here, and a trillion there but $10 Trillion is getting kind of real. Isn't it????  That is a LOT of paper to sell, and if foreign governments aren't buying it (as least as much as they used to), that leaves us investors and the Fed Reserve Bank of NY to buy it up.  Will this be inflationary?  I don't know but I will resist impulse to go out and buy physical gold and Bitcoin. . . .

One thing I have learned in 30+ years of investing:  The smartest person in the room can always lay out very specific and compelling reasons to be pessimistic, and I always want to make dramatic changes after hearing them out.  The flip side is that the people who do really well investing (common people, anyway) are the ones that "climb the wall of worry" and stay invested according to their AA.  This is my plan - keep climbing that wall!

ChpBstrd

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2023, 02:09:35 PM »
Wasn't there a 2023 Predictions thread? I can't seem to find it. I'd like to review that for kicks.

ChpBstrd's Probably Wrong Initial 2024 Predictions:

1) Inflation falls to near zero as the owner's imputed rent component catches up with this year's drop in house prices (statistical lag is about 15 months). Shelter is already the component keeping Core PCE above 2%. CPI minus shelter is currently 1.5% YoY and falling fast! With short-term rates and QT applying restrictive pressure, it would take a lot for inflation to come back. Something like an oil embargo paired with sudden creation of liquidity would be necessary.

2) Long-term Rates plummet as markets suddenly realize real interest rates are in the extremely restrictive +4-5% territory, and recession risk is higher than previously thought. Inflation is yesterday's news. E.g. if inflation is 1% and the FFR is 5.5%, that's a major disincentive for making purchases. The 10-year yield will fall below 4%. This will deepen the yield curve inversion in the short term. Meanwhile, the Fed starts the 6 month process of cautiously talking about rate cuts before making their first cut in the 2nd half, amid worsening unemployment, leading economic indicators, and bank liquidity. It is possible the Fed will leave QT on autopilot even as it makes the first cuts, because they clearly don't understand the scale of QT's impact on inflation through money supply.

3) Unemployment will rise above 4.5% by July. This is a continuation of the modest trend seen in recent months, and a probably-too-modest expectation after so many rate hikes.

4) Stocks will probably be flat or rise low-single-digits, helped by lower interest rates but harmed by rising unemployment. I don't care, because the bigger action will be in high-duration treasury bonds. ZROZ and EDV could gain over 20% next year, in either a soft landing or hard landing scenario.

5) The Bank Term Funding Program, which bailed out the banking system earlier this year and injected money supply into the system, will be extended in March. It is unclear whether this will be sufficient to keep inflation ex-shelter positive.

6) Housing Prices will continue going up modestly, as buyers increase their conviction that 5% 30y mortgage rates are just around the corner, and that the housing correction is in the rear view mirror. I've been predicting a further correction, but I'm not sure that makes sense anymore if I'm also predicting a fall in long-term rates.

7) A Recession has historically followed rate hiking campaigns 100% of the time when rates rose by more than about 3.75% within a couple of years. We just did 5.25% in 18 months! Similarly the yield curves have been predicting recession for a while now. We are currently within the typical/average timeframe for a recession to start, and the Conference Board's Leading Economic Indicators index continues to point down. A "soft landing" has literally never occurred after such a confluence of events. Still, it takes a lot to put the US economy in reverse, so I will assign only a 75% chance of recession in 2024. That probability is front-loaded, because if the recession doesn't hit within the first 6-8 months of 2024, we are likely out of the woods and on some new, never-before-seen growth trajectory. I can be agnostic about a recession because I think my long-duration bonds will benefit from lower long-term rates regardless of whether we get a recession or soft landing. Rates go down either way.

8) U.S. Elections will probably result in Donald Trump as president and a Republican controlled Senate and House. Whether or not the economy is actually bad, with sub-4% growth and GDP growth that probably exceeds China, people think the economy is bad, and the R's are successfully pinning blame for inflation on Biden. That perception has historically doomed the incumbent party. This is in line with an international trend shifting toward the right, as Western liberals continue de-organizing their grassroots operations and arguing on the internet, mostly about words. Plus Republicans will certainly have assistance from allies abroad, especially on the essentially un-moderated X, TikTok, and Telegram platforms where increasing numbers of voters get their fake news. Cultivating this support is the reason for Republican reluctance to support Ukraine. This electoral outcome will be a signal to pivot back into stocks, as it almost certainly means wealth transfers from the national account to corporate accounts (i.e. tax cuts that raise the national debt) as we saw after 2016.

I am not predicting a debt crisis or the US dollar losing its reserve status in 2024 because everywhere else remains a mess, so TINA. Falling rates in 2024 will trigger a frenzy to lock in yield, which will further suppress yield, supporting the US's debt load. Beyond 2024, however, we'll have to watch to see if China issues a digital currency and regulatory infrastructure for international trade. Xi does not seem particularly forward-thinking on this idea, but you never know. It might happen if sold to Xi in military/strategic terms. If that did happen, I'd become a lot more interested in gold because a digital yuan would imperil the US dollar, and with gold you can avoid being tied to the risks of either reserve currency. 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 02:23:20 PM by ChpBstrd »

Psychstache

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2023, 03:12:14 PM »
Tonight I say markets will move forward, not backwards.  Upwards, not forward.  And always . . . twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!

Market predictions for some, miniature American flags for others!

WayDownSouth

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2023, 11:07:50 PM »
I predict the stock market will continue to rise heavily. We've been hitting just a few hundred points from an all-time record high on the DOW, and even less than that for all-time record EOD on the DOW. From a realist perspective, the economy (both the micro and macro) are so far detached from the stock market that it's almost impossible to predict anything particular with any amount of accuracy. Overall though, DOW is going to make an all-time record high any day now.

I've been a day trader for a long time and I'm also exceptional at deep data analysis, patterns, and reading into potentials regarding any type of catalyst imaginable. These things used to work very well as strategies and they're basically incoherent at this point. Nothing makes sense. Hedge funds were responsible for over 40% of all home purchases in the last 2 to 3 years roughly. The FED is somehow propping things up by perpetual debt issuance which is always market-positive. I suppose two "wars" are also a big factor playing into the current market highs. On the ground, regular people are struggling heavily and inflation numbers are extremely fudged. Costs and the metrics used to display these costs are continually twisted, skewed, and re-invented to fit a positive narrative, but I fear the economy itself is already in freefall yet people continually spending above their means due to being told that everyone is spending has helped fill a big gap.

I'm pretty confident that things will become perpetually more detatched, and that while fluctuations will occur, we'll see a whole lot more inflation and a whole let less people with "available" money. The markets are always manipulated by MMs (market makers), but never have I seen anything like I've seen in the last 18 months. It's to the point where sniping huge volumes of penny stocks is the only way I'm finding a spot to profit rapidly yet at a much less often frequency.

For those who don't follow the actual ins/outs of individual market movents and buy & sell orders - for example all eyes on Level II of a stock, I'll confidently inform you that the manipulation is more blatant than ever and to such a degree that I'd need to write a LOT to explain. Those who know and who are good see it, they've always seen it, but they also know it's stronger than ever. Markets are creating an extreme transfer of wealth via a handful of classic and new tactics and the average person is oblivious to this. Anyone without serious investment experience who is investing in short-term, swing trading, intra-day trading, etc., is like a bleeding seal in shark infested waters. Not going to end well for them. But they'll try something else, and lose even more.

I think that long-term investing in the market is also becoming less volatile yet increasingly risky to to a number of matters that are increasing and compounding by the day, contributing to a mix of total unpredictability even for the finest minds. If I'd have any advice it's stay out of the markets unless you're in some sort of semi-long index type of bag. Otherwise you're playing with fire. I myself am extremely reluctant and playing extremely conservatively and with very very very tight precision. Stop losses set with no margin for loss in most cases because things are just not safe.

With that said, I think there is also a good chance that the introduction of Bitcoin as an ETF is going to be a reality and a big eye-opener for a lot of crypto-lovers when they see the true results of what full-regulation of just a few major cryptos will mean for the rest of the market. I don't think it's going to end pretty.

Overall, 2024 should be one of the most insanely profitable years for the market. The problem is, who it's actually profitable for. Those who reap the biggest benefits will be the market makers and they will do so at a level that's unheard of. I think the average Joe is set to jump on the bandwagon as the news pumps the rising markets, and will lose a lot more than he imagined. It's really a mechanism of wealth transfer and you either have someone manage it all for you, or you do it your self. If you're good, and if you know what you're doing, you'll manage it yourself. Just you, your laptop and the market. Your broker being the only thing between you and the money. It doesn't get any closer than that when considering opportunity. However as beautiful as it is - that ability to "touch the gold" - it is also extremely easy to become a gambler and watch your money slip right out of your hands and into those with the tech, ability, and more shady tricks than you can imagine.

Timing is everything.

Stay long, stay extremely diverse, and if you think you're diverse and safe, please consider diversify even more. You're going to need it.

Additionally, as much as AI is being pumped and as much as I know some tech stocks will explode upward, the tech sector as a whole is not going to do nearly as well as they'd like you to think. Energy sector will be the long-win this next year, along with things like companies providing and producing raw materials. I'd stay away from anything having to do with transportation, shipping, luxury items, and the hospitality/travel industry. By February they'll already be showing hard losses IMO. Stay away from maritime anything.

I'm not an advisor, just my predictions, as the OP titled the thread - "predictions".

« Last Edit: December 12, 2023, 11:16:07 PM by WayDownSouth »

MrGreen

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2023, 09:13:25 AM »
Line goes up!

sayonara

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2023, 10:19:19 AM »
I'll predict:

- Fed starts cutting rates 25bps at a time starting Q2, possibly moving to 50bps; Fed Funds Rate ends 2024 somewhere in the 3.75%-4.25% range.

- CRE gets saved by the rate cuts and, while there has been much pain already to this point which I see continuing through early 2024, foreshadowed rate cuts get commercial lenders comfortable enough to afford some flexibility to borrowers with maturing debt in 2024. I also believe have seen the bottom of Office valuations (excluding the super-large buildings 500k SF+... those will be much tougher to unload) and that we'll start to see more family offices coming to the buyers table for Office assets for either conversion and/or betting on employers gaining back the upper hand with employees with a worsening economy and tightening the screws with RTO policies.

- Housing market (SFH) gradually loosens with more supply as rates move down, slowly bringing balance back to the market; home prices end the year somewhere between flat and 10% below today's market, before beginning upward trend again thereafter.

- Stocks end the year somewhere between flat and down 5%.

Heckler

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2023, 03:11:12 PM »
Line goes up!

and down! and then up! then down! eventually up!

WayDownSouth

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2023, 03:59:48 PM »
Overall though, DOW is going to make an all-time record high any day now.

Well, I guess I could have wrote "tomorrow"..  We closed at 37,090 today, making two new all-time record highs today (intra-day and close).


EverythingisNew

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2023, 04:24:43 AM »
I predict stocks will rise after interest rates go down. The Fed announced 3 rate drops in 2024 so the rate hikes are over and money supply will increase as the rate is cut. Before the rates fall and within the next 6 months, I foresee some turbulence. The next 6 months are the most critical part of the rate hike landing. There will be sharp movements and fear.

My predictions
- China invades Taiwan. Taiwan has an election in January. I predict the DPP candidate will win (current ruling party that promotes independent Taiwan and is pro-US). China will increase military activity if this candidate wins.
- cryptocurrency blood bath. This year will see a deflation of the crypto hype. It has been around 20 years and it will now be measured not for what it could be, but for what it is - not very useful.
- inflation will stay steady at 3% in the first half of the year. It will drop in the second half of the year.
- home prices will stay flat. There will be more homes for sale. When the rates are lowered (inflationary for homes), the cooling economy will stop prices from rising. I also don’t see prices falling because there is demand to move that is waiting for rates to drop and purchasing power increases with lower rates. This will balance the cooling economy.
- the economy will get worse in 2024, but stocks will go up after rates drop (after some turbulence). There will not be a major recession, but we will see 2 quarters of declining GDP (technical recession). Things will get worse for Main Street.

So basically ending a bit worse for the economy, but slightly up (3-5%) for stocks.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2023, 02:52:24 AM by EverythingisNew »

WayDownSouth

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2023, 03:14:20 PM »
I think stocks will rise after interest rates go down. The Fed announced 3 rate drops in 2024 so the rate hikes are over and money supply will increase as the rate is cut. Before the rates fall and within the next 6 months, I foresee some turbulence. The next 6 months are the most critical part of the rate hike landing. There will be sharp movements and fear.

My predictions
- China invades Taiwan. Taiwan has an election in January. I predict the DPP candidate will win (current ruling party that promotes independent Taiwan and is pro-US). I think China will increase military activity if this candidate wins.
- cryptocurrency blood bath. I think this year will see a deflation of the crypto hype. It has been around 20 years and it will now be measured not for what it could be, but for what it is - not very useful.
- inflation will stay steady at 3% in the first half of the year. It will drop in the second half of the year.
- home prices will stay flat. There will be more homes for sale. When the rates are lowered (inflationary for homes), the cooling economy will stop prices from rising. I also don’t see prices falling because I think there is demand to move that is waiting for rates to drop and purchasing power increases with lower rates. This will balance the cooling economy.
- the economy will get worse in 2024, but stocks will go up after rates drop (after some turbulence). I don’t think there will be a major recession, but I think we will see 2 quarters of declining GDP (technical recession). Things will get worse for Main Street.

So basically ending a bit worse for the economy, but slightly up (3-5%) for stocks.

I agree with cryptocurrency bloodbath but for a different reason. I'm seeing Blackrock use it's weight to pass legislation to "legitimize" BTC as an ETF. It's also my "hypothesis" that as of current, they are one of the top 5 largest holders of BTC on the planet.

Why do I see the bloodbath? I'm imagining that when a certain chosen few (which could be 100 or more) cryptocurrencies are "legalized", the others will become illegal. I think that we're also entering a period in time where cryptos will be used increasingly by big brother for malevolent subject matter. Whether the face behind the curtain is blackrock, doesn't really matter. Imagine social credit scores, full-crypto system such as central bank digital currencies utilizing blockchain to operate various monetary and social aspects of society, etc... A gloomy dystopian view is the reasoning behind my theory more than anything.

It's going to be pumped and dumped a couple more times to make the general public poorer between now and then also. I believe they will create the hype, cause a massive spike, then sell their huge holdings to catalyze a selling frenzy, then buy it all back low after simultaneously shorting it the whole way down. Just my opinion.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2023, 01:07:14 AM »
Things are quiet in the "crypto allocation" thread right now, for those who want to continue the discussion there.

I'm seeing Blackrock use it's weight to pass legislation to "legitimize" BTC as an ETF. It's also my "hypothesis" that as of current, they are one of the top 5 largest holders of BTC on the planet.
According to this SEC filing, BlackRock will rely on Coinbase to hold Bitcoin.

Quote
BlackRock Fund Advisors (the “Trustee”) is the trustee of the Trust; Coinbase Custody Trust Company, LLC (the “Bitcoin Custodian”) is the custodian for the Trust’s bitcoin holdings
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1980994/000143774923028549/bit20231017_s1a.htm

Metalcat

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2023, 05:27:21 AM »
It’s going to go up a bunch, down a bunch, stay the same a bunch, but ultimately end up a few percent. None of those factors mentioned in the OP have anything to do with it.

Spot on. I love that this was the very first response.

The only "prediction" I have is that the Canadian Fed is going to lower interest rates in 2024, which isn't a prediction, that's just reading their statement that they're going to do it.

Because of that, housing will likely pick back up because we have a demand overload from a national-level supply shortage, and we now have a backlog of all the buyers waiting for rates to drop.

Besides some dumbfuck obvious real estate assumptions, I've got nothing.

WayDownSouth

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2023, 09:48:08 AM »
Things are quiet in the "crypto allocation" thread right now, for those who want to continue the discussion there.

I'm seeing Blackrock use it's weight to pass legislation to "legitimize" BTC as an ETF. It's also my "hypothesis" that as of current, they are one of the top 5 largest holders of BTC on the planet.
According to this SEC filing, BlackRock will rely on Coinbase to hold Bitcoin.

Quote
BlackRock Fund Advisors (the “Trustee”) is the trustee of the Trust; Coinbase Custody Trust Company, LLC (the “Bitcoin Custodian”) is the custodian for the Trust’s bitcoin holdings
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1980994/000143774923028549/bit20231017_s1a.htm

THAT is interesting. And a little confusing. But I know if Blackrock plans to create the BTC spot ETF they need to hold a LOT...

Check out this: https://www.thestreet.com/crypto/investing/is-blackrock-already-the-third-largest-bitcoin-holder-in-the-world
(they're assuming it's Blackrock, but transactions via Gemini possibly)

Then see this: https://x.com/WuBlockchain/status/1693905744712908968?s=20
(and check the comments, too)

Apparently, it's Robinhood?
https://platform.arkhamintelligence.com/explorer/address/bc1ql49ydapnjafl5t2cp9zqpjwe6pdgmxy98859v2

I can't confirm. They might be shuffling it around a bit while waiting for legislation and/or paperwork w/coinbase. Or, it may not be them. But you know they'll use any loophole available. The subject deserves it's own thread really. Who bought all these? I don't wanna hijack the thread. Nonetheless, interesting happenings there.

Wintergreen78

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2023, 11:04:14 AM »
It’s going to go up a bunch, down a bunch, stay the same a bunch, but ultimately end up a few percent. None of those factors mentioned in the OP have anything to do with it.

Spot on. I love that this was the very first response.

The only "prediction" I have is that the Canadian Fed is going to lower interest rates in 2024, which isn't a prediction, that's just reading their statement that they're going to do it.

Because of that, housing will likely pick back up because we have a demand overload from a national-level supply shortage, and we now have a backlog of all the buyers waiting for rates to drop.

Besides some dumbfuck obvious real estate assumptions, I've got nothing.

Every so often this blog posts historical data that I find interesting. https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2023/12/what-happens-after-a-20-up-year-in-the-stock-market/

We are on track for a +20% increase in the SP500. Apparently the average return in years following a 20% up year is 8.9% and about 2/3 of the time the next year was also positive. I think the SP500’s average is close to 10%/year and it is positive 75% of the time. So historically it might perform slightly lower in the year following a 20% increase, but there is not a big difference compared to an average year.

So, yeah, I got nothing either.

firemane

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2023, 08:44:14 AM »
My predictions:

-US Stocks will go up at least 10% in 2024. There will be tremendous pressure on the Fed to lower interest rates for election year as people are skeptical of Biden's economic policies. The federal rate going down 1/4 of a point will cause the market to go bananas at a level that is not tied to reality.

-Real estate will start going up again despite additional building - however, not at the same pace as stocks. Wealth gap will also get worse, and we will move closer toward a nation of renters. I think there could be some exceptions, such as southeast coastal areas in areas that allow Short Term Rental that are having operating costs going so high that it no longer makes sense as a business. Probably some other geographic exceptions, but those are the ones I have been paying attention to since I was interested in possibly having one at some point.

-Crypto: who cares

WayDownSouth

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2023, 09:45:22 AM »
My predictions:

-US Stocks will go up at least 10% in 2024. There will be tremendous pressure on the Fed to lower interest rates for election year as people are skeptical of Biden's economic policies. The federal rate going down 1/4 of a point will cause the market to go bananas at a level that is not tied to reality.

-Real estate will start going up again despite additional building - however, not at the same pace as stocks. Wealth gap will also get worse, and we will move closer toward a nation of renters. I think there could be some exceptions, such as southeast coastal areas in areas that allow Short Term Rental that are having operating costs going so high that it no longer makes sense as a business. Probably some other geographic exceptions, but those are the ones I have been paying attention to since I was interested in possibly having one at some point.

-Crypto: who cares

Nice prediction. You are more on-point than the vast majority.

Regarding crypto, trust me when I tell you not to brush it off.

Cryptos will definitely be officially regulated in 2024.... That is a precursor, and will be one of the major contributors to upcoming life-changing events which will follow. They probably won't occur as quickly as 2024, but they may. Either way, they will not be good events.

Captain Cactus

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2023, 05:29:31 AM »
My predictions:

-US Stocks will go up at least 10% in 2024. There will be tremendous pressure on the Fed to lower interest rates for election year as people are skeptical of Biden's economic policies. The federal rate going down 1/4 of a point will cause the market to go bananas at a level that is not tied to reality.

-Real estate will start going up again despite additional building - however, not at the same pace as stocks. Wealth gap will also get worse, and we will move closer toward a nation of renters. I think there could be some exceptions, such as southeast coastal areas in areas that allow Short Term Rental that are having operating costs going so high that it no longer makes sense as a business. Probably some other geographic exceptions, but those are the ones I have been paying attention to since I was interested in possibly having one at some point.

-Crypto: who cares

Nice prediction. You are more on-point than the vast majority.

Regarding crypto, trust me when I tell you not to brush it off.

Cryptos will definitely be officially regulated in 2024.... That is a precursor, and will be one of the major contributors to upcoming life-changing events which will follow. They probably won't occur as quickly as 2024, but they may. Either way, they will not be good events.

What kind of life-changing events?

firemane

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2023, 10:22:07 AM »
I am definitely not anti-crypto, I just have decided it is no longer worth my time since I don't enjoy it. The hardware wallets were a nightmare. Had to pay large transaction fees to move the crypto off them, update the firmware, then pay transaction fees to move the crypto back onto them. Coin splits would put coins into limbo, such as when bitcoin gold came out. Due to this, I ended up getting tired of it and left it on FTX, and we all know how that went :). Grayscale trusts also always lag the market, and therefore lose credibility. There is no good crypto investment option. Maybe an ETF would solve it, but the ETF would defeat the purpose of what it is supposed to be used for.

Additionally, I don't see the big deal w/ the technology. I was always into it as a form of gambling or a hobby. Asymmetric encryption and Peer-2-peer have been around since the beginning of computer networking. Additionally, the government will never trust it, and it will always be pegged to the USD or whatever USD crypto comes out. Finally, energy efficiency. I have heard since 2017 that the lightening network would solve this, but haven't seen it materialize. The reality of using crypto for a transaction is that it is about as much of a hassle as doing a western union.

The digital gold argument is no different than anything else being agreed upon by the masses as a replacement for gold (same with replacing a currency, its all our imagination). Additionally, if it was supposed to behave like gold, why didn't it hold its value when inflation went rampant.

WayDownSouth

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2023, 10:53:02 AM »
My predictions:

-US Stocks will go up at least 10% in 2024. There will be tremendous pressure on the Fed to lower interest rates for election year as people are skeptical of Biden's economic policies. The federal rate going down 1/4 of a point will cause the market to go bananas at a level that is not tied to reality.

-Real estate will start going up again despite additional building - however, not at the same pace as stocks. Wealth gap will also get worse, and we will move closer toward a nation of renters. I think there could be some exceptions, such as southeast coastal areas in areas that allow Short Term Rental that are having operating costs going so high that it no longer makes sense as a business. Probably some other geographic exceptions, but those are the ones I have been paying attention to since I was interested in possibly having one at some point.

-Crypto: who cares

Nice prediction. You are more on-point than the vast majority.

Regarding crypto, trust me when I tell you not to brush it off.

Cryptos will definitely be officially regulated in 2024.... That is a precursor, and will be one of the major contributors to upcoming life-changing events which will follow. They probably won't occur as quickly as 2024, but they may. Either way, they will not be good events.

What kind of life-changing events?

Financial, sociietal, industrial, etc... Everything. The rest of the "New normals"...

WayDownSouth

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2023, 11:07:36 AM »
I am definitely not anti-crypto, I just have decided it is no longer worth my time since I don't enjoy it. The hardware wallets were a nightmare. Had to pay large transaction fees to move the crypto off them, update the firmware, then pay transaction fees to move the crypto back onto them. Coin splits would put coins into limbo, such as when bitcoin gold came out. Due to this, I ended up getting tired of it and left it on FTX, and we all know how that went :). Grayscale trusts also always lag the market, and therefore lose credibility. There is no good crypto investment option. Maybe an ETF would solve it, but the ETF would defeat the purpose of what it is supposed to be used for.

Additionally, I don't see the big deal w/ the technology. I was always into it as a form of gambling or a hobby. Asymmetric encryption and Peer-2-peer have been around since the beginning of computer networking. Additionally, the government will never trust it, and it will always be pegged to the USD or whatever USD crypto comes out. Finally, energy efficiency. I have heard since 2017 that the lightening network would solve this, but haven't seen it materialize. The reality of using crypto for a transaction is that it is about as much of a hassle as doing a western union.

The digital gold argument is no different than anything else being agreed upon by the masses as a replacement for gold (same with replacing a currency, its all our imagination). Additionally, if it was supposed to behave like gold, why didn't it hold its value when inflation went rampant.

This is a smart post.

Grayscale is important in my outlook - not as an investment but as what it will bring to the table, theoretically so to speak. Blackrock decided to use their leverage to back Grayscale's issues in creating ETF, etc...

CBDCs (Central Bank Digital Currencies) are one nightmare scenario, and there are many others. When they use blockchain to "tokenize" our everyday lives, legislate madatory smart contracts wherever possible in/around commerce, and combine that with "crypto" (which will be nothing more than federally regulated digital monies or CBDC), things will not be looking very pretty... CCP China is the next stop for USA, just with a softer and more appealing face to it.

You can't afford a home with real monies, but now, since you're social credit score is so high because you obey the rules, you qualify for a free/discounted housing thanks to the fact that central banks, blackrock, and other such companies own them all (or at least the majority). Current land & property owners will be forced/incentivized to participate or else be punished with extreme taxes and lower social credit scores.

Literally, "legitimizing" or regulating Crypto is the gateway to a "voluntary" new way to live, which won't be very voluntary at all unless you enjoy suffering financially, socially, economically, and physically. This is fact, it's already setup and in the works it just requires a VERY large step back to understand and see the full picture.

Heckler

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2023, 01:25:14 PM »
WayDownSouth, are you a Black Mirror script writer?  Should be.  :)

It's a compliment, I love Black Mirror.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror)

firemane

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2023, 01:33:32 PM »
I thought black mirror too, however, it is not that farfetched considering how accurate satellite images are getting. I figure there will be a live feed of pretty much everything from a variety of cameras at some point
« Last Edit: December 21, 2023, 01:37:38 PM by firemane »

GuitarStv

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2023, 01:56:37 PM »
I thought black mirror too, however, it is not that farfetched considering how accurate satellite images are getting. I figure there will be a live feed of pretty much everything from a variety of cameras at some point

I guess that will shift outdoor sex from 'thrilling and risky' to 'exhibitionist'.

firemane

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2023, 02:20:44 PM »
LMAO

WayDownSouth

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2023, 02:39:19 PM »
WayDownSouth, are you a Black Mirror script writer?  Should be.  :)

It's a compliment, I love Black Mirror.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror)

Right now I'm not, but yes, indeed I was before they fired me. You see, there are a lot of facts that have been delivered within that series. Let's call them predictions... These were routinely ordered by people within the company, people with much more authority than production teams or any manager. The thing is, certain messages or themes MUST be written into the script or else it's a no-go.

Well I took their "special messages" and wrote them in a style and fashion in which they became too blatantly obvious and deeply impactful. This caused them to tell me that it was now "too much", and to "tone it down" or "embed it less realistically". I told them to fuck off and write it themselves then. I still have a free lifetime membership from netflix and a box of netflix t-shirts which I use as garage rags...

I thought black mirror too, however, it is not that farfetched considering how accurate satellite images are getting. I figure there will be a live feed of pretty much everything from a variety of cameras at some point

You're basing it on satellite images? The technology to read (via satellite photograph) a newpaper or a letter on the ground has been around since at least the early 2000's.

I'm not sure where you guys live or what you do or whatever, but... Have you seen any documentaries or information on what's actually going on in the real world?

Here's an interesting watch from 6 years ago, to provide perspective to the progress they made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ5LnY21Hgc

Did anyone see the video of the kids from Silicon Valley companies over there in Beijing for business? They were having drinks, and one was exclaiming how surprised he was because from his passport photo alone (provided when he entered), he was fined for j-walking. He received a text message on his phone less than 30 seconds after his j-walk that he'd been fined and the money was automatically deducted from his bank account. This was a tourist. This was also years ago.

The third paragraph I wrote in my previous message was hypothetical but more or less that's how things are going to roll out. These technologies and plans are already in place. Legislation is accumulating. Banks are making massive moves to embrace and absorb impacts, along with private companies working with government entities and establishment stakeholders to ensure their own losses are mitigated. I'm not playing around. It sound all science-fictionally and everything - I get it....

If I had told you in May of 2019 that the whole world would be locked down due to a pandemic within 12 months, I'd be a kook, right? "Impossible, people wouldn't comply, etc.".....

Watch and learn. Markets going to fly to new highs in 2024 but your guess is as good as mine about when and where it stops. When it does, you'll remember this post and soon after you'll begin to realize why.


WayDownSouth

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2023, 02:46:22 PM »
I thought black mirror too, however, it is not that farfetched considering how accurate satellite images are getting. I figure there will be a live feed of pretty much everything from a variety of cameras at some point

I guess that will shift outdoor sex from 'thrilling and risky' to 'exhibitionist'.

It will be considered lewd/illicit conduct just as it already is but yeah the thrill and risk factor will actually continually increase.

Space-X already has 5k satellites up there with plans for at least 7k more. That's a lot of coverage. You may technically be a pornstar and not even know it!

MrGreen

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2023, 04:59:05 PM »
Pretty cool chart from Visual Capitalist. Might be the start of another bull run!

WayDownSouth

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2023, 09:13:12 PM »
Pretty cool chart from Visual Capitalist. Might be the start of another bull run!

That chart is extremely aesthetically pleasing - love it. Anyway, it's not truly correct.

If you look at the real chart history the S&P has been on a bull run since January of 2013. Just because there is a dip doesn't mean it's a bull market. It needs to drop at least 20%. Biggest drop since '13 was October of last year and it wasn't even 20%. The bull S&P has been a buckin' bronco for 10 years solid.

The percentage drops on the returns, or in this case "logarithmic scale" of total returns, doesn't denote a bull market. Bull and bear markets are based on the prices of stocks or indexes themselves... not their various types of potential returns. That chart is nothing more than great graphic design and pure BS.

There's always a way to twist the data with graphs and charts like the one you posted. I'm sincerely telling you to stick with the actual official market performance chart and never let any outside charts and graphs influence your trading or opinion. They're almost always fudged up, feel-good bullshit. One more reason why so many people miss opportunities and lose money.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2023, 09:16:47 PM by WayDownSouth »

MrGreen

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2023, 10:01:33 PM »
Pretty cool chart from Visual Capitalist. Might be the start of another bull run!

That chart is extremely aesthetically pleasing - love it. Anyway, it's not truly correct.

If you look at the real chart history the S&P has been on a bull run since January of 2013. Just because there is a dip doesn't mean it's a bull market. It needs to drop at least 20%. Biggest drop since '13 was October of last year and it wasn't even 20%. The bull S&P has been a buckin' bronco for 10 years solid.

The percentage drops on the returns, or in this case "logarithmic scale" of total returns, doesn't denote a bull market. Bull and bear markets are based on the prices of stocks or indexes themselves... not their various types of potential returns. That chart is nothing more than great graphic design and pure BS.

There's always a way to twist the data with graphs and charts like the one you posted. I'm sincerely telling you to stick with the actual official market performance chart and never let any outside charts and graphs influence your trading or opinion. They're almost always fudged up, feel-good bullshit. One more reason why so many people miss opportunities and lose money.
The S&P 500 peaked in January 2022 at 4796.56. The low point in the downturn later that year was 3577.03 in October. That's a peak to trough drop of 25.4%. That brought the bull market of the 2010s to a close. It was a short bear but we're technically in a new bull market, no?

Edit: the S&P also dropped more than 20% when pandemic lockdowns hit in early 2020 but I feel like most folks don't count that one since we went from bull to bear to bull again in less than 2 months.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2023, 10:12:06 PM by Mr. Green »

WayDownSouth

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Re: Your market predictions for 2024
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2023, 11:59:56 PM »
Pretty cool chart from Visual Capitalist. Might be the start of another bull run!

That chart is extremely aesthetically pleasing - love it. Anyway, it's not truly correct.

If you look at the real chart history the S&P has been on a bull run since January of 2013. Just because there is a dip doesn't mean it's a bull market. It needs to drop at least 20%. Biggest drop since '13 was October of last year and it wasn't even 20%. The bull S&P has been a buckin' bronco for 10 years solid.

The percentage drops on the returns, or in this case "logarithmic scale" of total returns, doesn't denote a bull market. Bull and bear markets are based on the prices of stocks or indexes themselves... not their various types of potential returns. That chart is nothing more than great graphic design and pure BS.

There's always a way to twist the data with graphs and charts like the one you posted. I'm sincerely telling you to stick with the actual official market performance chart and never let any outside charts and graphs influence your trading or opinion. They're almost always fudged up, feel-good bullshit. One more reason why so many people miss opportunities and lose money.
The S&P 500 peaked in January 2022 at 4796.56. The low point in the downturn later that year was 3577.03 in October. That's a peak to trough drop of 25.4%. That brought the bull market of the 2010s to a close. It was a short bear but we're technically in a new bull market, no?

Edit: the S&P also dropped more than 20% when pandemic lockdowns hit in early 2020 but I feel like most folks don't count that one since we went from bull to bear to bull again in less than 2 months.

The Jan to October was with many other peaks and troughs. I see what you're saying, but it doesn't work like that. First, you need a literal 20% drop that is sustained for at least a substantial period. Bouncing all over the place with a peak and trough difference of 25% over a long period doesn't count. At least not the way I see it, nor the way professional traders see it.

The news, and "pro economists" on TV might say that, but the people making the real money and trading in it don't think of bull and bear markets in that sense. I'm telling you - not to be a dick, so you understand. It will help your strategy and you'll make more money. The S&P is not a 12-month market, it's a 20 year market. If you want to really comprehend how to win consistently in the long term, you'll consider what I'm saying.

You're looking at daily, which is important because yes each day counts. And yes, it WAS slowly trending downward to make that 25%, but it wasn't a drop and stay without serious fluctuation. Very short-lived and volatile times like that and the MMs want you to think the whole market has changed so they can suck your money out. What can you do, right? It's just a bear market at that time, right? WRONG. You get in there and you make adjustments, and you win. For them, there is no bear market or bull market. They win on the way up, and they win on the way down.

None of this should be received as condescending my friend. I'm genuinely trying to help you here. Think about it.

Edit to Add about YOUR Edit: In 2020, they knew exactly what was going to happen several months before it happened. Major players dumped their investments in anything related to travel/hospitality and invested in textiles (face masks), plastics (medical supplies), and medical industry in general - and that began 6 months before the first case of Covid was announce in the US. A lot of people also shorted the travel markets hard, or ran very tight & specific put options and made incredible sums. That doesn't mean you're wrong, I'm just saying, this is how it works. If you play like an average Joe, you win like an average Joe. I knew on Jan 31st of 2020 these guys were investing in textiles and I couldn't figure out why. The proper data wasn't there yet for me to connect the dots and consider 1.5 years of global masking for 7 billion people.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2023, 12:12:59 AM by WayDownSouth »