Author Topic: Young investor, VASGX vs S&P  (Read 1496 times)

vmvo

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Young investor, VASGX vs S&P
« on: September 17, 2022, 12:07:32 AM »
Hi all,

I’m a 26yo graduate student (single household). Find myself in a great position to think and really plan for the future. While I have a ~45k overall annual income (not net), I have 0 debt. My current goal is to invest long term. In terms of expenses, I just have rent and monthly bills (no tuition or car expenses). As I hope you agree, there is a lot of potential here.

Two years ago I opened a VASGX (Vanguard LifeGrowth) account that has around 22k. I’m not sure if I should also open an S&P 500 index fund where I monthly invest (say $100?; whether it’s with Vanguard or another brokerage). Or if I should keep all money in that VASGX (and continue to invest here?). The more I’m learning about mutual funds it seems VASGX might not have been the best pick (just based on expense ratio and growth %).

I know this is open ended, but what would you do if you were in my shoes?  (And trying to set yourself up in the best possible way long term).

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: Young investor, VASGX vs S&P
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2022, 01:10:30 PM »
VMVO,

You are in a really good place.  At your age, expense ratio matters a lot.  I'd recommend the index over the MF.  Now that you can buy commission free at most brokerages, VOO is better than SPY.  For you 100% equities. 

Also recommend establishing a credit rating now.  You want 800+ when it is time to get a car and/or house.  A great way is to get a signature loan at a bank and deposit the cash with them in a CD of same term as collateral.  Just plain tell them you are building credit.  They will take their tiny spread all day long with their risk hedged away.

Radagast

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Re: Young investor, VASGX vs S&P
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2022, 01:22:46 PM »
I'd be more likely to recommend Total US Stock Index (VTI) or Total World Stock Index (VT). I agree though that VASGX doesn't seem ideal. The big reason to me is that you pay taxes on the interest of its bond portion if it's just in a standard account; VASGX would be perfectly fine in an IRA or 401k. I'd also agree that you don't need a bond allocation right now unless you think you do.

You are using a Roth IRA right? Because you should be starting there first right now. See https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investment-order/

JAYSLOL

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Re: Young investor, VASGX vs S&P
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2022, 02:03:09 PM »
That’s exciting!  What do you expect to be able to save in a year?  Definitely investing in your 20s you want to go 100% equities unless you expect to tap into some within a few years to buy a house or something. 

BicycleB

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Re: Young investor, VASGX vs S&P
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2022, 05:07:06 PM »
I had some VASGX for a while but not any more. That's because it didn't suit my changing needs; it might be fine for an investor whose needs it serves more precisely. At the time I wanted something that would automatically balance several things at once - bonds vs stock, international vs US - and it did that.

I wouldn't judge it based on just the growth rate. Investments take a very long time before that can be an informative comparison, because in short periods like 1 to 10 years (grin), temporary conditions give one investment type a temporary advantage over another. Also different investment types should have different growth rates because they have different risk levels. For example, last year a fund of tech stocks would have a far superior growth rate; this year, one of the highest rates of loss. Such a fund is riskier in the sense of being more volatile that VASGX, but whether its growth is more or less depends mostly on what period of time you measure.

VASGX has a bond component. In the long term, stocks produce higher returns most of the time, so if you're 20something, growth over time by an all-stock fund will probably be better. That, not the growth rate of some recent period, is a reason for picking one fund type over another. Invest by finding an investment that suits your investing needs.

In comparing VASGX vs an S&P 500 fund, another difference is that S&P 500 is all US companies, VASGX includes international ones. Which is better depends on future trends, which of course are hard to predict, and whether there are sustainable differences between US and international companies' stock markets. I used to assume that international markets would trend over time to the same result as US ones, so that diversifying would automatically buy cheap companies that would later reach the same price as US ones; VASGX is a good way to invest in this belief, if the belief is true. Later I began to realize that some differences between countries might produce permanent differences in results and maybe the foreign stocks woudn't catch up, meaning that VASGX would mean systematically investing in weaker stocks again and again, a waste of money. I acted on my new belief by selling VASGX but maybe time will prove me wrong. It's hard to know whether the international component is actually better or worse for you, I'm just mentioning things to think about. Sorry not to have a clear answer on that one, but sometimes a clear answer just means ignoring things that make a difference.

I'd at least switch to buying S&P fund for new purchases, on general principle. Also because a fixed monthly purchase buys more shares when prices are cheap.

I hesitate to say dump VASGX for an all stock fund because I'm personally going through my first phase of maybe market timing, and am kind of nervous about stock prices AND bond prices. Full disclosure - I danced out of the market earlier this year, got back in at a discount (success! temporarily at least), and now am considering ducking at least partly back out. If my worries are correct your best tactic might be sell VASGX, then stay in cash until the market finishes crashing, then buy your stock fund(s). Historically this is considered a poor strategy, but it's why I hesitate to go full S&P right now. This paragraph expresses personal opinion, definitely not standard investing wisdom.

***

If you're going to stay fully invested, and take a long term approach, you might consider a fund that includes small cap stocks, not just an S&P fund. Sometimes small stocks perform much better than large ones. Historically over really long periods, the small stock advantage has been pretty strong, especially for small cap value. No one knows whether that will be true in future but there's a decent chance your returns will eventually be better that way. For example, instead of VOO (Vanguard S&P 500 ETF) you could buy VTWO (Vanguard Russell 2000 ETF). Or half VOO, half VTWO, and rebalance annually.  https://money.usnews.com/funds/etfs/small-blend/vanguard-russell-2000-etf/vtwo
« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 05:34:01 PM by BicycleB »

PDXTabs

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Re: Young investor, VASGX vs S&P
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2022, 01:21:33 PM »
I'd be more likely to recommend Total US Stock Index (VTI) or Total World Stock Index (VT). I agree though that VASGX doesn't seem ideal. The big reason to me is that you pay taxes on the interest of its bond portion if it's just in a standard account; VASGX would be perfectly fine in an IRA or 401k. I'd also agree that you don't need a bond allocation right now unless you think you do.

I agree with all of this. If I were you I would keep the VASGX and start adding some VT.

vmvo

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Re: Young investor, VASGX vs S&P
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2022, 08:52:23 PM »
I'd be more likely to recommend Total US Stock Index (VTI) or Total World Stock Index (VT). I agree though that VASGX doesn't seem ideal. The big reason to me is that you pay taxes on the interest of its bond portion if it's just in a standard account; VASGX would be perfectly fine in an IRA or 401k. I'd also agree that you don't need a bond allocation right now unless you think you do.

You are using a Roth IRA right? Because you should be starting there first right now. See https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investment-order/

This is really helpful, thank you! I do not have Roth IRA, my only investment is that VASGX. For context, have never had a 401k as I’m in grad school and have no employer to match and to someone’s point don’t have 800+ score yet but have 760 currently.

Say I can put at least $200-300 away long term monthly (aka forget about it) while maintaining a separate liquid emergency fund. Would you recommend a combination of Roth IRA and VT for that long term allocation? Not sure what the benefits might be to having either or both. Thanks for the help!

Radagast

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Re: Young investor, VASGX vs S&P
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2022, 01:33:17 AM »
Yes. I think VT is best because first bonds are not tax efficient except in a IRA or 401k, and VT is basically like VASGX without bonds. Also bonds are more of a defense for people who have something to lose but provide poor long term growth, while you have little to lose and great prospects for long term growth. Also your e-fund and future earnings effectively act like bonds, so you are totally covered there already. VT is a tiny equal ownership % in all feasibly traded companies in the world so you never have to wonder if you are in the right thing.

Roth IRA yes, because you pay taxes up front when you are poor and untaxed, then when the stocks have doubled a few times in the future you owe no tax to sell them. And no tax on dividends or capital gains along the way. Bonds will likely have lower growth, and should go in a pretax account later (401k + IRA etc).  Finally if you do need the money sooner than expected, principal comes out of a Roth tax free anytime.

In fact it is probably best if you sell some VASGX and max out a Roth of VT right now. Then do it again in January. For that matter may as well and go ahead and sell all VAGSX and buy VT in the taxable account as well. Probably you have low cap gains and probably even losses, so good time to do the switch with no tax penalty.

Nothing against VAGSX, I think it is a great choice for a 401k in a firehose of cash career situation. Just VT and Roth are a better match for you right now.

Radagast

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Re: Young investor, VASGX vs S&P
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2022, 01:55:24 AM »
Ok tax note use Roth if your marginal tax rate is 12% or less. For more than 12% use traditional IRA. You make a lot for a grad student maybe. The cutoff is under $42k for 22% depending on what else you have going on. Use traditional IRA and others as possible to keep your marginal tax rate at 12% to the greatest of your ability.

vmvo

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Re: Young investor, VASGX vs S&P
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2022, 02:10:22 PM »
You’ve been really helpful, thank you! I feel much more oriented now.

Double checked my numbers and after standard deduction my taxable income is right below $42k but you gave me the insight to be careful not to fall into the next tax bracket (big way to do this is to use traditional IRA). And you’re right, actually have some losses on the VASGX (~1,800). Still worth it to move things over (including to a VT) at a loss? If I do, would max out Roth this year + Jan like you suggested and move to VT with the rest.

Radagast

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Re: Young investor, VASGX vs S&P
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2022, 07:41:47 PM »
You’ve been really helpful, thank you! I feel much more oriented now.

Double checked my numbers and after standard deduction my taxable income is right below $42k but you gave me the insight to be careful not to fall into the next tax bracket (big way to do this is to use traditional IRA). And you’re right, actually have some losses on the VASGX (~1,800). Still worth it to move things over (including to a VT) at a loss? If I do, would max out Roth this year + Jan like you suggested and move to VT with the rest.
Looks like VASGX also issues short and long term capital gains, which along with bond interest are taxable account poison. I would absolutely sell it and move to VT at your earliest convenience. Maybe tomorrow. Losses are actually good in this case because you can deduct them, while gains are taxable (maybe).

Along those lines, you pay no capital gains if you stay in the 12% bracket. 12% is really an area of indifference for Roth versus Traditional IRA, so do what you need to do to stay at 12%, including using an IRA when in doubt. Also look for ways to lower your adjusted income in general because there can be benefits to that in unexpected places. For example if you get a 401k and max it out the first year after school, you might get a savers credit. Others pop up too but I don't have experience and am not an expert.

vmvo

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Re: Young investor, VASGX vs S&P
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2022, 11:14:29 AM »
Thanks so much @Radagast (and everyone who replied)! Really appreciate all the advice, super helpful.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 11:16:07 AM by vmvo »