Author Topic: Yield curve inversions in strange places - who has an explanation?  (Read 1035 times)

ChpBstrd

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I've learned to periodically check the spread between shorter-duration and longer-duration bonds, because whenever shorter duration bonds yield higher than longer duration bonds, this is a fairly reliable recession or bear market indicator.

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/interest-rates/pages/textview.aspx?data=yield

I'm noticing two things:

a) Occasional small inversions in the 1mo, 2mo, and 3mo durations this month.
b) 20 year treasuries have yielded slightly higher than 30 year treasuries since 10/28.

These inversions have been much smaller than the 15-20 basis point differences seen in fall 2019, much less the 100+ basis point inversions seen in early 2008. More importantly, the historically accurate inversion signal between the 2y and 10y treasuries has yet to occur. Thus, I'm not predicting a recession or bear market, but I'd like to understand the story around these strange signals. The fed is supposed to start tapering purchases "later this month" but I'm not sure why that would cause an inversion.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/bst_recenttrends.htm

Please add your own hypotheses or debunk my hypotheses below:

1) Fed asset buying is relatively higher in the 20y duration than in the 30y duration, and the taper-down of demand for 20y treasuries has propped up their prices and lowered their yield relative to the 30y durations.
2) 30y mortgages compete with treasuries for investor dollars. A constriction in the supply of mortgage securities occurred because of a dip in home sales in August, is forcing investors into 30y treasuries today.
3) Investors are pivoting out of mortgage-backed securities and buying 30y treasuries in their place, anticipating a potential housing meltdown next year as rates are increased, first by lower federal buying of mortgages, and second by the Fed raising rates.
4) The 1, 2, and 3 mo treasury markets have such flat interest rates, the one-basis point differences between them are noise plus rounding errors. This does not explain's today's sudden sell-off in 1 month treasuries, which doubled their yield.
5) Investors in 1mo treasury notes are pivoting en masse to 30y bonds because of dovish comments by Chicago fed president Charles Evans.
6) Investors in short-duration treasury notes are pivoting en masse to increased stock exposure, due to positive seasonality and consumer spending data.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Yield curve inversions in strange places - who has an explanation?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2021, 06:09:12 PM »
I think some insurance companies and pension plans use liability matching, and always buy 30 year treasuries.  That might explain the slightly lower yield on 30 year vs 20 year, as the demand is higher.

Radagast

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Re: Yield curve inversions in strange places - who has an explanation?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2021, 11:00:16 PM »
I think investors interested in longer than 10 year bonds think, if going with 20, might as well just go all the way to 30 years. I think many long term bond holders are in it for risk parity strategies, and for big capital gains in case of deflation. They don't care about the tiny dividend. That's my case anyhow. My bond exposure is mostly 25-30 year STRIPS because they have the greatest price motion.

STRIPS bonds have had the last 2-5 years (ie 25-28 to 30 years out) inverted for as long as I have been paying attention (5 years maybe), so that's not surprising to me.

Short term: meh who knows what that means or why it probably doesn't matter. It seems like things like that were also happening 5 or so years ago, but you can check the history.

vand

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Re: Yield curve inversions in strange places - who has an explanation?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2021, 05:06:17 AM »


Seriously though.. I'm not going to pretend I have any idea. Bonds are not a free market, so it's somewhat futile to try interpreting them..


BicycleB

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Re: Yield curve inversions in strange places - who has an explanation?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2021, 04:07:01 PM »
PTF, baby.

NorCal

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Re: Yield curve inversions in strange places - who has an explanation?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2021, 04:33:50 PM »
I can’t say I have any real answers. I don’t believe point #2 has much validity. My understanding is that mortgages are typically indexed to 10 yr treasuries, as a typical mortgage is only open for about 10 years (refinance, sale, etc).

I’ll take a wild guess that the 2-3 month inversion is related to short term government debt ceiling/ fiscal funding issues.  Combine this with year end window-dressing, and I can see where the short term stuff would be getting wonky.  This is all a complete guess though.



ChpBstrd

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Re: Yield curve inversions in strange places - who has an explanation?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2021, 07:29:39 AM »
I can’t say I have any real answers. I don’t believe point #2 has much validity. My understanding is that mortgages are typically indexed to 10 yr treasuries, as a typical mortgage is only open for about 10 years (refinance, sale, etc).

I’ll take a wild guess that the 2-3 month inversion is related to short term government debt ceiling/ fiscal funding issues.  Combine this with year end window-dressing, and I can see where the short term stuff would be getting wonky.  This is all a complete guess though.

2 excellent points @NorCal .

habanero

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Re: Yield curve inversions in strange places - who has an explanation?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2021, 08:00:56 AM »
In general there is no shortage of weird stuff in global rates markets these days. There has been rather large moves across global rates markets for various reasons - surging inflation, repricing central bank reactions, massive stop-outs / risk reduction from the fast money community (aka hedge funds) and so on. Risk apetite is reported to be pretty low and that the year is almost over doesn't help.

Bearn in mind, there ain't that much assets around in circulation. A very, very good chunk is sitting on central bank's balance sheets.

Think you can drop 5). Buyers of 1m and 30y treasuries are quite different characters.

maizefolk

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Re: Yield curve inversions in strange places - who has an explanation?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2021, 08:25:53 AM »
I’ll take a wild guess that the 2-3 month inversion is related to short term government debt ceiling/ fiscal funding issues.  Combine this with year end window-dressing, and I can see where the short term stuff would be getting wonky.  This is all a complete guess though.

That was my guess as well. The current resolution funding the government only runs through Dec 3rd and the current forecast is we hit the debt ceiling on December 15th. It's probably worth giving up a tiny amount of yield just to not be caught up in any weirdness that might ensue right at the cusp.

 

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