Author Topic: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market  (Read 173838 times)

mistymoney

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #800 on: October 02, 2022, 01:28:15 PM »
Stocks are on sale, 24% off!

good! Cuz I'm buying!!!

lol. desparate to buy as many shares as I can so that small improvements in the overall market will be larger and larger improvements for my bottom line down the road.

Don't pop my bubble. It gives me comfort to think I'll come out ahead after this. It worked in 2008 after all!

Tyson

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #801 on: October 02, 2022, 01:47:47 PM »
Stocks are on sale, 24% off!

good! Cuz I'm buying!!!

lol. desparate to buy as many shares as I can so that small improvements in the overall market will be larger and larger improvements for my bottom line down the road.

Don't pop my bubble. It gives me comfort to think I'll come out ahead after this. It worked in 2008 after all! every market crash in all US history.

Fixed that for you!

mistymoney

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #802 on: October 02, 2022, 02:05:16 PM »
Stocks are on sale, 24% off!

good! Cuz I'm buying!!!

lol. desparate to buy as many shares as I can so that small improvements in the overall market will be larger and larger improvements for my bottom line down the road.

Don't pop my bubble. It gives me comfort to think I'll come out ahead after this. It worked in 2008 after all! every market crash in all US history.

Fixed that for you!

Thanks :)

BicycleB

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #803 on: October 02, 2022, 06:09:04 PM »
or he may be sitting there still out of the market and laughing at the rest of us down 24% for the year.

It works both ways....this guy took quite a bashing for a year.....now I don't hear nearly as much chortling from those who bragged about not worrying about a dip here and there. "I'm down 50K but I'm not worried....now I'm down 100K....now I'm down 200K etc. "

Down 24% is a lick for anyone. But don't worry, the bulls that have gone strangely quiet this entire year will be back bragging at some point.

If the market drops another 30-40% from here JuniorOldTimer will have broken even, except that they didn't collect any dividends in that time.


I have a friend who, if I understand correctly, invested his entire hefty life savings in a reverse equity fund when the S&P was around 3200. He says if the market goes to 2500, he'll be set for life.

DadJokes

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #804 on: October 05, 2022, 09:27:39 AM »
I'm timing the market right now.

I transferred an old HSA to Fidelity recently. I had to sell all investments in the HSA before transferring it, and then the transfer took a few weeks. By the time the money got to Fidelity, my new employer announced that they will offer a HDHP with an HSA next year...using the same bank that I just transferred my HSA out of. For the sake of simplicity, I'd rather just have one HSA account than two, so I plan to transfer the money out of Fidelity back to my new provider in early 2023. In the meantime, I'm just leaving the money in cash.

I already missed out on Q3 dividends, but I also missed out on some pretty ugly losses in September. I think the market will be lower on 12/31 than it is today, but if I'm wrong, it's a pretty small sum. I'll probably forget to check back, but feel free to point and laugh at me when I'm wrong.

Approximate math:
Sold ~$27k On 9/9 (90% VTSAX @ 99.48/share & 10% VTIAX @ 27.61/share)

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #805 on: October 05, 2022, 09:48:27 AM »
I transferred an old HSA to Fidelity recently. I had to sell all investments in the HSA before transferring it, and then the transfer took a few weeks. By the time the money got to Fidelity, my new employer announced that they will offer a HDHP with an HSA next year...using the same bank that I just transferred my HSA out of.

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waltworks

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #806 on: January 04, 2023, 09:41:24 AM »
We're approaching the 3 year anniversary!

VTSAX is at $92.70 today, vs $68-something when @junioroldtimer started the thread. I'm not going to do the full analysis because I'm too lazy, but so far... not so good.

-W

Psychstache

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #807 on: January 04, 2023, 02:56:46 PM »
I am lazy, but not too lazy to copy paste from the last update post with some additional math and commentary:

junioroldtimer sold 892.949 shares on Feb 7, 2019 at $67.59 each converting $60,354.43 into cash on the thesis that President Trump would be impeached and the stock martket would drop in the ensuing turmoil (see Post #1)

junioroldtimer purchased 907.167 shares on Mar 13, 2020 at $66.14 each for gain in position of $1,294.78 (see post #580)

However, he missed out on dividends totaling $1,282.58 during this time, for a market timing gain of $12.20 .  he had the initial $60,354.43 invested in an Ally savings account for that same ~1 year at a rate of 2.3% compounded monthly for a gain of $1,402.88 .

This brings the total position gain of "Market timing attempt #1" to be a gain of $1,415.08

Next, junioroldtimer sold 469.41 shares on Mar 27, 2020 at $63.91 each converting $30,000 into cash on the thesis that "VTSAX will be lower at some time in the future". (see Post #611)

On Jun 5, 2020 the closing price was $78.85, meaning he had cost himself $7,012.99 after 10 weeks.
On Sep 1, 2020 the closing price was $87.08 meaning he had cost himself $10,876.23 plus $159.08 in dividends after 23 weeks
On Nov 19, 2020 the closing price was $89.66 meaning he had cost himself $12,087.31 plus $312.06 in dividends after 34 weeks
On Feb 5, 2021 the closing price was $99.32 meaning he had cost himself $16,621.81 plus $489.55 in dividends after 45 weeks
On Apr 14, 2021 the closing price was $105.40 meaning he had cost himself $19,475.82 plus $641.82 in dividends after 55 weeks
On August 6, 2021 the closing price was $111.39 meaning he had cost himself $22,287.59 plus $794.85 in dividends after 70 weeks
On January 3, 2023 the closing price was $92.70 meaning he had cost himself $13,514.30 plus $1081.76 in dividends

This brings the total position gain of "Market timing attempt #2" to be a loss of $14,596.05

This is a potential total endeavor loss (sum of attempts #1 &#2) of $13,180.97

So, despite a bloodbath in the market this past year, OP is not particularly close to meeting their thesis.

For a quick sum up for those just tuning in: OP decided to time the market on the thesis that the Mueller report would have damning evidence that would lead to the impeachment of Trump, turmoil would ensue, and the markets would drop.

While OP's investment thesis was a bust, thanks to a once-in-a-century pandemic, OP was given the chance to buy back in for a small profit. Their follow-up comments indicate that they believed the they were correct in their efforts and not simply lucky. We were given the update on the second sell out attempt, then a few replies indicating they didn't quite understand the difference between a mutual fund and and ETF, and then silence.

In the interim between these posts from OP, much nonsense, bizarreness, and occasional foam ensued.

And scene.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 03:30:42 PM by Psychstache »

August26th

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #808 on: January 05, 2023, 12:29:52 PM »
This was a fantastic recap, @Psychstache! Thanks.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #809 on: January 06, 2023, 09:44:54 AM »
This was a fantastic recap, @Psychstache! Thanks.

Agreed!

Yet their timing record was actually quite good. The decision to sell before the pandemic was correct because lower prices would be available in the future. The decision to buy on the pandemic drop was perfect timing. However the decision to sell in late March 2020 was the one wrong one.

So with a 66% correct rate, they STILL walked away with a loss of 24% versus buy and hold, all due to one single mistake. This is not a story of Bob the world’s worst market timer (who made money on the long side despite being consistently wrong), it’s a story of someone who was usually correct in their future predictions (and yet lost money by not being in the market). Maybe the market still has 25% to drop and jroldtimer will be vindicated in time. We’ll see!

AJDZee

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #810 on: January 19, 2023, 01:08:18 PM »
*Spoiler Alert*

wow this was a fantastic thread read! In another tab I had the VTSAX historical chart and followed along in the time of the posts, with the privilege of hindsight knowing about pandemic and recovery...
the tense lead up to March 16 2020, very interesting not a single mention from any comment about covid or it potential effects on the market. Just a lot of mud slinging.
The redemption from OP who bought back in in mid-60s!!
But then wait, the plot twist! OP doubled down and sold in low 60s thinking it would go lower!!!!! ugh, such good drama! :D

I give it a rotten tomatoes score of 96%.
Thank you for reviving this thread, or else I would have missed it.

frugalnacho

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #811 on: February 23, 2023, 09:06:33 AM »
I also timed the market. 

In anticipation of quitting my job I sold about $62k worth of VTSAX on 12-2-21 for $113.78/share.  Not at the absolute maximum, but looking at the chart it was serendipitous timing.

I had a 401k from that job as well and I just finally got around to rolling it into my IRA.  They took a $60 processing fee to liquidate the account, but the difference in share price between the selling and the purchasing in the IRA just netted me a 4% increase in total shares totaling about $2,400. 

waltworks

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #812 on: February 24, 2024, 01:19:11 PM »
It's been more than a year!

junioroldtimer sold 892.949 shares on Feb 7, 2019 at $67.59 each converting $60,354.43 into cash on the thesis that President Trump would be impeached and the stock martket would drop in the ensuing turmoil (see Post #1)

junioroldtimer purchased 907.167 shares on Mar 13, 2020 at $66.14 each for gain in position of $1,294.78 (see post #580)

However, he missed out on dividends totaling $1,282.58 during this time, for a market timing gain of $12.20 .  he had the initial $60,354.43 invested in an Ally savings account for that same ~1 year at a rate of 2.3% compounded monthly for a gain of $1,402.88 .

This brings the total position gain of "Market timing attempt #1" to be a gain of $1,415.08

Next, junioroldtimer sold 469.41 shares on Mar 27, 2020 at $63.91 each converting $30,000 into cash on the thesis that "VTSAX will be lower at some time in the future". (see Post #611)

On Jun 5, 2020 the closing price was $78.85, meaning he had cost himself $7,012.99 after 10 weeks.
On Sep 1, 2020 the closing price was $87.08 meaning he had cost himself $10,876.23 plus $159.08 in dividends after 23 weeks
On Nov 19, 2020 the closing price was $89.66 meaning he had cost himself $12,087.31 plus $312.06 in dividends after 34 weeks
On Feb 5, 2021 the closing price was $99.32 meaning he had cost himself $16,621.81 plus $489.55 in dividends after 45 weeks
On Apr 14, 2021 the closing price was $105.40 meaning he had cost himself $19,475.82 plus $641.82 in dividends after 55 weeks
On August 6, 2021 the closing price was $111.39 meaning he had cost himself $22,287.59 plus $794.85 in dividends after 70 weeks
On January 3, 2023 the closing price was $92.70 meaning he had cost himself $13,514.30 plus $1081.76 in dividends
On Feb 24, 2024 the closing price was $122.66, meaning he had cost himself $27577.84 plus maybe $1300 in dividends, I'm too lazy to look it up.

This brings the total position gain of "Market timing attempt #2" to be a loss of $29,000, give or take.


Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #813 on: February 24, 2024, 02:47:45 PM »
Thank you for the update. It's so easy to lose track of these things when they are great practical examples for us to learn from.

JAYSLOL

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #814 on: February 24, 2024, 07:53:56 PM »
I’m so unbelievably thankful for posts like this, I’ve been able to enjoy watching the market go up and down and know I’m doing the right thing by just piling in what I can each month

Tyson

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #815 on: February 24, 2024, 08:03:18 PM »
junioroldtimer doesn't seem to be posting anymore.  It'd be interesting to know if he jumped back in the market at some point. 

waltworks

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #816 on: February 24, 2024, 10:14:10 PM »
I'd guess (s)he is doing just fine (and has hopefully bought back in/invested more money) - anyone who has the interest in personal finance to set up an account here is probably going to end up ok even if they do some market timing.

I mean, I've done it too. I probably cost myself $50k over the last few years pulling money out of the market and doing Ibonds and money market accounts. In my defense I thought we were buying a house and wanted DP money in something safe/stable. But since we still haven't bought one, it was a bummer of a decision.

-W


GilesMM

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #817 on: February 25, 2024, 06:06:09 AM »
junioroldtimer doesn't seem to be posting anymore.  It'd be interesting to know if he jumped back in the market at some point.


I guess we'll just keep updating for years and years until he speaks up with some update.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #818 on: February 25, 2024, 06:11:14 PM »
...
On January 3, 2023 the closing price was $92.70 meaning he had cost himself $13,514.30 plus $1081.76 in dividends
On Feb 24, 2024 the closing price was $122.66, meaning he had cost himself $27577.84 plus maybe $1300 in dividends, I'm too lazy to look it up.
Looks like VTSAX paid 1.65 per share in dividends since January 2023. If we multiply by the 469.41 shares sold on March 27, 2020, we obtain $774.53 in dividends-missed-out-on in 2023.

So if I'm calculating correctly, the total running opportunity loss of attempt #2 is $27,577.84 as @waltworks previously calculated, plus $774.53 in 2023 dividends, or $28,352.37. In other words, the original ~$30k investment would have gone up ~94% by now, almost 4 years later, and even without reinvestment of dividends.

Presumably if junioroldtimer stayed bearish all this time, they would have earned some risk-free interest in 2022 and 2023, but perhaps gotten caught by the bond bear market, but we can only wonder what assets they would have gotten into. CDs? iBonds? Money market? TIPS? Treasuries? Someone I know who works at a bank describes people with six figures in CDs - still locked in at <1% rates from five years ago. Maybe that's junior? Maybe not.

Some may see this as an old, dead thread, but to me it's only getting more interesting as the amount of gains-missed-out-on is approaching the entire amount of the investment the market timer was trying to protect and exceeds all historical worst case scenarios. And as the years go by, the argument that some short period of market gains were just the calm before the storm becomes weaker and weaker. Finally, the amount of potentially foregone gains is starting to compound into amounts that are significant from a retirement perspective. I.e. Retiring without those $28k in gains is more risky than the risk faced on the $30k stock investment.

mistymoney

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #819 on: March 02, 2024, 10:04:01 PM »
junioroldtimer doesn't seem to be posting anymore.  It'd be interesting to know if he jumped back in the market at some point.


I guess we'll just keep updating for years and years until he speaks up with some update.

jroldtimer will never return.

onecoolcat

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #820 on: March 02, 2024, 11:47:18 PM »
In 2016 I tried timing the market right after Brexit was voted on.  Sold nearly 25k in my 401k, which was half my assets at the time.  I was convinced the market was going to correct.  It rose nearly 10% and I bought back in a couple months later.  I gave up trying to time the market after that.  Best thing correction to mindset I ever had.

Monocle Money Mouth

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #821 on: March 03, 2024, 04:24:50 AM »
junioroldtimer doesn't seem to be posting anymore.  It'd be interesting to know if he jumped back in the market at some point.


I guess we'll just keep updating for years and years until he speaks up with some update.

jroldtimer will never return.

Thorstach is the only market doomsayer on this board brave enough to show his face years after making a prediction.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #822 on: March 07, 2024, 09:17:41 AM »
The frequency of Thorstach's posts dropped as dramatically as his prediction.

JAYSLOL

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #823 on: March 07, 2024, 10:36:03 AM »
junioroldtimer doesn't seem to be posting anymore.  It'd be interesting to know if he jumped back in the market at some point.


I guess we'll just keep updating for years and years until he speaks up with some update.

jroldtimer will never return.

Thorstach is the only market doomsayer on this board brave enough to show his face years after making a prediction.

That’s why he’s the GOAT.  Or should I say GOAT MOAT?

ChpBstrd

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #824 on: March 08, 2024, 11:39:31 AM »
junioroldtimer doesn't seem to be posting anymore.  It'd be interesting to know if he jumped back in the market at some point.
I guess we'll just keep updating for years and years until he speaks up with some update.
jroldtimer will never return.
Thorstach is the only market doomsayer on this board brave enough to show his face years after making a prediction.
That’s why he’s the GOAT.  Or should I say GOAT MOAT?
Courage top is in.

clarkfan1979

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #825 on: March 10, 2024, 08:58:10 PM »
I'm giving credit to jroldtimer for having the balls make public statements regarding his trades and being time stamped.

I try to time the market with my asset allocation by going back and forth between 90% Large Cap/10% bonds to 100% large cap. I think it's been working but I can't verify without investing a ton of hours because my 401a at work was originally VOYA and now it's Empower. When I try to track performance, I don't have my first 3 years of data from Voya. 

dragoncar

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #826 on: March 12, 2024, 11:00:29 PM »
junioroldtimer doesn't seem to be posting anymore.  It'd be interesting to know if he jumped back in the market at some point.


I guess we'll just keep updating for years and years until he speaks up with some update.

jroldtimer will never return.

Thorstach is the only market doomsayer on this board brave enough to show his face years after making a prediction.

That’s why he’s the GOAT.  Or should I say GOAT MOAT?

Oh god the top is spreading

Psychstache

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #827 on: March 13, 2024, 08:59:29 AM »
junioroldtimer doesn't seem to be posting anymore.  It'd be interesting to know if he jumped back in the market at some point.


I guess we'll just keep updating for years and years until he speaks up with some update.

jroldtimer will never return.

Thorstach is the only market doomsayer on this board brave enough to show his face years after making a prediction.

That’s why he’s the GOAT.  Or should I say GOAT MOAT?

Oh god the top is spreading

I think there is an ointment for that.

GuitarStv

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #828 on: March 13, 2024, 09:05:32 AM »
junioroldtimer doesn't seem to be posting anymore.  It'd be interesting to know if he jumped back in the market at some point.


I guess we'll just keep updating for years and years until he speaks up with some update.

jroldtimer will never return.

Thorstach is the only market doomsayer on this board brave enough to show his face years after making a prediction.

That’s why he’s the GOAT.  Or should I say GOAT MOAT?

Oh god the top is spreading

I think there is an ointment for that.



Topical ointment fixes everything.

Wintergreen78

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #829 on: March 13, 2024, 09:05:51 AM »
junioroldtimer doesn't seem to be posting anymore.  It'd be interesting to know if he jumped back in the market at some point.


I guess we'll just keep updating for years and years until he speaks up with some update.

jroldtimer will never return.

Thorstach is the only market doomsayer on this board brave enough to show his face years after making a prediction.

That’s why he’s the GOAT.  Or should I say GOAT MOAT?

Oh god the top is spreading

I think there is an ointment for that.

Nope, once it gets started it is really difficult to get rid of. Only solution is to completely cut off the old infected part.

GuitarStv

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Re: Welp, I'm going to take a stab at timing the market
« Reply #830 on: March 13, 2024, 09:12:49 AM »
junioroldtimer doesn't seem to be posting anymore.  It'd be interesting to know if he jumped back in the market at some point.


I guess we'll just keep updating for years and years until he speaks up with some update.

jroldtimer will never return.

Thorstach is the only market doomsayer on this board brave enough to show his face years after making a prediction.

That’s why he’s the GOAT.  Or should I say GOAT MOAT?

Oh god the top is spreading

I think there is an ointment for that.

Nope, once it gets started it is really difficult to get rid of. Only solution is to completely cut off the old infected part.

Just a little off the top?

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!