Author Topic: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?  (Read 3825 times)

rulesforrebels

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Okay so I'm going to be attending an Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program next week. Curious if anyone on here has been?

I'm expecting some people to tell me "you got taken" why would you spend the money and honestly I kinda agree, but my pops signed up for it and when one person signs up you get a free guest. I have the time so figured I'd attend.

Now as for their little $300 weekend class. I will say to someone who knows nothing about investing, doesn't invest in their 401k, etc, I think that probably would be well worth the money for them to get an intro to investing. Sure you could find the same info online, but to have it organized and having the accountability to have to go to a class, I can see it having some value.

So after the weekend course my dad is trying to get me to go half with him on it, it's something like 20K. I said no. I attend a lot of these hotel seminar type deals for business and investing as I am interested in the psychology behind it, like to see their sales pitch but 99.9% of the time it's a scam or complete BS.

What I will say for OTA is they do have a physical office and aren't comming to town for 2 days.

Here's what gets me though. Their trading strategy flies in the face of everything we've been told about investing. Time in the market beats timing the market. A very small percent of traders make money. Basically everything they tell you flies in the face of everything were traditionally told.

In terms of their pitch and they do make a good point and put some fear into you. They say in a market correction there's a huge loss in terms of opportunity cost if you buy in the market in 2006 or 2007 and then spend the next 3-5 years just to get back even. Your money isn't growing during that period just kind of being wasted. In the longrun obviously time heals all wounds and in the long run people are profitable but that's why they encourage you to trade so you're always making money as opposed to just buying, holding and hoping for the best.

In terms of their strategy, in a nutshell they say institutional buyers leave a track essentially when they by. They show you charts and show you how to recognize where they buy in, and eventually the market will come back down to that point where you can buy in and catch the next bounce.

I wanted to get your guys take, if you actually spend the time to learn the market, have a plan, put in the time and are disciplined do you think you can actually be profitable in the long term or is the only ones making money OTA selling their course?

Like I said it's paid up and I have the time so I'm going to go, its a 7 day course 8 hours a day so pretty intensive. Just wondering if I should have any hopes of it actually working?

clifp

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2018, 03:46:31 PM »
I've listened to their radio program on Bloomberg radio several times. This time they were talking a lot about shorting the market.  Which long-term of course is a horrible strategy, but over the short-term can work well.  Michael Lewis great book The Big Short , the movie was pretty good, goes into to detail about how small number of people made a fortune betting the real estate market in general and mortgage loan market, in particular, were going to collapse.   

I think it is very hard to be good at shorting markets, the men in The Big Short, were super smart, and more importantly just wired to be contrarians.  These are what I call strategic shorters, they don't need OTA to become smart short sellers.

My understanding of OTA, and which I suspect is less than yours, is they rely on technical analysis to identify trends.  Trends work until they don't and my guess is by the time, and trend is so well defined that you can give nationwide seminar on it no longer works.

Personally, I'd happily go to one of their weekend course,maybe even spend $300, but unlikely.  Pretty much no way I'd fork over the $5K+ they want for the pro course.

This is a pretty good read on the subject


https://www.kiplinger.com/article/investing/T052-C000-S002-our-man-goes-undercover-and-tells-all.html
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 11:37:00 PM by clifp »

Andy R

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2018, 07:06:27 PM »
Before even looking at any of the details, doesn't it strike you as odd that, the entire purpose of a business is to make money, and if their "system" actually worked, they would already be getting money and there would be no need for the business.

Abe

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2018, 08:42:34 PM »
I think the data is pretty clear that most professional traders have failed to consistently beat the buy-and-hold strategy. I'd say then the answer to your questions is no.


Dicey

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2018, 09:03:19 PM »
OMG, I listen to a station that runs their advertising. I hate it only slightly less than that awful k-a-r-s for kids jingle. If you're even asking this question here, there is a huge disconnect about what MMM is, and what OTA is, IMO. I guess the best I can muster is: good luck and try not to spend any more than you already have. And if you have debt of any kind, you shouldn't be doing this at all.

ILikeDividends

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2018, 09:18:02 PM »
Trading is to investing what renting is to owning your own home.

Probably not strictly accurate, semantically, but it's kind of how I interpret the term, "trading."
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 09:19:42 PM by ILikeDividends »

WalkaboutStache

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2018, 11:06:46 PM »
7 day course, 8 hours a day?

Son, do you know how much trading I could do in all that time? I could make millions, I tells you!  MILLIONS!!!

So you tell me that you are going to spend what amounts to a FT work week, presumably paying for your own lunch, listening to a pitch that you presumably know is not true, because you have nothing better to do?

Seriously?

Dicey

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2018, 03:03:49 AM »
I just re-read your post. Ugh. So you're still set on giving them that much of your life? Guaranteed you'll never get that time back.

Dances With Fire

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2018, 09:22:11 AM »
Okay so I'm going to be attending an Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program next week. Curious if anyone on here has been?

I'm expecting some people to tell me "you got taken" why would you spend the money and honestly I kinda agree, but my pops signed up for it and when one person signs up you get a free guest. I have the time so figured I'd attend.

Now as for their little $300 weekend class. I will say to someone who knows nothing about investing, doesn't invest in their 401k, etc, I think that probably would be well worth the money for them to get an intro to investing. Sure you could find the same info online, but to have it organized and having the accountability to have to go to a class, I can see it having some value.

So after the weekend course my dad is trying to get me to go half with him on it, it's something like 20K. I said no. I attend a lot of these hotel seminar type deals for business and investing as I am interested in the psychology behind it, like to see their sales pitch but 99.9% of the time it's a scam or complete BS.

What I will say for OTA is they do have a physical office and aren't comming to town for 2 days.

Here's what gets me though. Their trading strategy flies in the face of everything we've been told about investing. Time in the market beats timing the market. A very small percent of traders make money. Basically everything they tell you flies in the face of everything were traditionally told.

In terms of their pitch and they do make a good point and put some fear into you. They say in a market correction there's a huge loss in terms of opportunity cost if you buy in the market in 2006 or 2007 and then spend the next 3-5 years just to get back even. Your money isn't growing during that period just kind of being wasted. In the longrun obviously time heals all wounds and in the long run people are profitable but that's why they encourage you to trade so you're always making money as opposed to just buying, holding and hoping for the best.

In terms of their strategy, in a nutshell they say institutional buyers leave a track essentially when they by. They show you charts and show you how to recognize where they buy in, and eventually the market will come back down to that point where you can buy in and catch the next bounce.

I wanted to get your guys take, if you actually spend the time to learn the market, have a plan, put in the time and are disciplined do you think you can actually be profitable in the long term or is the only ones making money OTA selling their course?

Like I said it's paid up and I have the time so I'm going to go, its a 7 day course 8 hours a day so pretty intensive. Just wondering if I should have any hopes of it actually working?

As a former stock trader/ trust manager, I think this is a terrible idea.

If you enjoy staring at computer screens and charts all day, everyday, hey it's your dime and time.

I truly hope your dad is NOT "playing" with money earmarked for retirement.

Just my 2 cents...But then again I didn't charge 300 bucks (or more.)

Scandium

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2018, 10:01:01 AM »
I just re-read your post. Ugh. So you're still set on giving them that much of your life? Guaranteed you'll never get that time back.

My thoughts too. OP say they "have the time".. Who in this day have too much time to waste on something like this??! I know I don't! Literally doing anything else would be better. Even watching netflix all day, it'd be more fun and you might accidentally learn something at least. Isn't there some fun hobby you could do? Work out? Go for a hike? anything? I can't imagine wasting 56 hours of my life on something like this, wow. /rant

Blueberries

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2018, 11:40:01 AM »

<edit>

In terms of their strategy, in a nutshell they say institutional buyers leave a track essentially when they by. They show you charts and show you how to recognize where they buy in, and eventually the market will come back down to that point where you can buy in and catch the next bounce.

I wanted to get your guys take, if you actually spend the time to learn the market, have a plan, put in the time and are disciplined do you think you can actually be profitable in the long term or is the only ones making money OTA selling their course?

Like I said it's paid up and I have the time so I'm going to go, its a 7 day course 8 hours a day so pretty intensive. Just wondering if I should have any hopes of it actually working?

1.)  I know nothing about this program and I've never heard of it, but for the first statement, yes, you can see institutional buying and selling on a chart. 

2.)  Again, I cannot speak to this program, but I can tell you, yes, you can learn how to be consistently profitable which isn't the same as being profitable all the time.  The thing with trading is, unlike many other professions, you can have successful trades without any training.  This is true more than many other fields, especially at the start of a bull market.  That is often what lures people in.  To get to a place where you're consistently profitable, you have to love it (IMO) and you have to put in the time and the study/work.

<edit>

I think it is very hard to be good at shorting markets, the men in The Big Short, were super smart, and more importantly just wired to be contrarians.  These are what I call strategic shorters, they don't need OTA to become smart short sellers.

My understanding of OTA, and which I suspect is less than yours, is they rely on technical analysis to identify trends.  Trends work until they don't and my guess is by the time, and trend is so well defined that you can give nationwide seminar on it no longer works.

<edit>

I agree, shorting is difficult.  I'm a natural contrarian and always have been (Charlie Munger is my spirit animal), but shorting has eluded me.  The other thing to consider is that shorting is only giving you a max gain of 100% and even that is exceptionally rare.

As to your second point, it is true this happens, but not as often as one would think.  Most people know how to lose weight, but many of those people struggle to lose the weight.

Before even looking at any of the details, doesn't it strike you as odd that, the entire purpose of a business is to make money, and if their "system" actually worked, they would already be getting money and there would be no need for the business.

This.  So much this.

I have a friend that became a multi-millionaire during the 2000 tech bubble and she sells her service because it brings her an additional $400Kish/year for minimal work.  I don't know if it's greedy or brilliant, but there it is.

rulesforrebels

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2018, 01:06:29 PM »
A bit off topic but to the whole point about why would someone teach someone if they had a money making machine. I think that's one of the worst arguments against this type of thing. You could say that about literally any subject matter. Why do consultants exist? If consultants were so good at improving businesses why don't they start their own instead of just making a small fee to help others businesses?

Why does education in any form exist, people could make more money doing whatever activity it is they teach about.

I think like you said with your friend, in addition to whatever she makes in tech and running tech businesses, she has through time and effort developed a knowledge that is valuable and useful to others and she would almost be a fool not to capitalize on that. Plus it's always good to diversify your income and have multiple streams of income.

If I'm a profitable house flipper and I create a course telling others how to do what I do, if the market turns south or shit happens or lending tightens up, I still have that revenue stream going.

That's not in any way an endorsement of OTA but seems everyone always has the same knee jerk reaction about paying for consulting, teaching or information why would someone sell it and I think that's a poor argument against something

ScarElbow

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2018, 04:23:11 PM »
I have gone to OTA sales pitch seminar and I can tell you a few things being a long term profitable trader myself.

Their main strategy is to identify a consolidation period and essentially wait for a pop in price action to occur presumably
from buying/selling pressure of big money (i.e institutional players) because theoretically those are the ones driving the trend of markets. THEN you would wait for the price to return to the previous consolidation level (i.e support/resistance) before going long or short in the previous breakout direction because the trend has already been established by big money. In layman terms, to give yourself an edge you always want to buy at wholesale price, not retail. That's why you want to wait for price to come back before entering a position. Although I don't have the tool/software necessary to detect sales volumn from the big players, there are other indicators out there that can paint a similar strategy particularly the MACD zero line crossing (momentum). The OTA's strategy is essentially similar to trading on the pull back after MACD has completely crossed over the other side. This has historically been a very reliable strategy in my trading career.

So, there you have it. I think their strategy is sound. I just don't necessarily think you have to pay them for an expensive course since all this information is readily available online.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 04:33:37 PM by ScarElbow »

PDXTabs

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2018, 05:27:49 PM »
I think the data is pretty clear that most professional traders have failed to consistently beat the buy-and-hold strategy.

Do you have a reference for that data? There's some data that you can't take advantage of their services and still beat the market (because of the huge price they charge), that's different from the OP who will be working for free.

Blueberries

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2018, 06:25:09 PM »
That line of argument may apply to other sectors, but in finance strategy -- esp stock picking -- it really doesn't.

IF someone has discovered a stock picking strategy that helps them outearn the market on a consistent basis, then if they want to keep getting those outsized earnings they better be damn sure to keep that information under wraps.  Because the more people who discover/start using that strategy, the sooner it starts losing its edge because eventually that information will become commonly known.  Reversion to the mean and all that.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.  Jesse Livermore was a great trader; he had a strategy, but he lacked discipline and lost it all (multiple times).

Institutions move the market, not retail investors.  Institutions are not typically following retail investment strategies.  Most of the people selling their services are simply taking advantage of people who don't want to do their own homework. 

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2018, 06:40:37 PM »
Don't expect the 2008 crash to happen again.  It's an extremely rare event that our brains tend to think is more likely because it's so scary and vivid.  You have to go back to the Great depression 90 years ago to find anything that bad.  That's worth keeping in mind if their strategy exists solely to avoid the 2008 crash.

But on the specifics they got wrong: the crisis occurred from Nov 2007 - Feb 2009, crashing -51%.  But it recovery took 3 years: Mar 2012.  So no, it was not a 5 year recovery - it took 3 years.  They're also wrong about 2006, when the market gained +15.5%.  If you invested in 2006, you broke even sooner: by the end of 2009 you had only lost -1.25%, and in 2010 you had a profit again.  So scaring you with 2006(+15.5%) or 2007 (+5.5%) is wrong.

I'd recommend you run their claims through independent data sources, like portfolio visualizer (which I did, above).  If they can't even tell the truth about things you can verify, do you really want to trust them with where to put your money?

JAYSLOL

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2018, 08:02:26 PM »
Before even looking at any of the details, doesn't it strike you as odd that, the entire purpose of a business is to make money, and if their "system" actually worked, they would already be getting money and there would be no need for the business.

Great point.  I'm going to start a business teaching people how to turn ordinary objects into solid gold, oh wait so I can turn objects into gold, never mind I'll just do that by myself, why would I want everyone else to know how to do that?

Scandium

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2018, 08:15:30 AM »
A bit off topic but to the whole point about why would someone teach someone if they had a money making machine. I think that's one of the worst arguments against this type of thing. You could say that about literally any subject matter. Why do consultants exist? If consultants were so good at improving businesses why don't they start their own instead of just making a small fee to help others businesses?

Why does education in any form exist, people could make more money doing whatever activity it is they teach about.

I think like you said with your friend, in addition to whatever she makes in tech and running tech businesses, she has through time and effort developed a knowledge that is valuable and useful to others and she would almost be a fool not to capitalize on that. Plus it's always good to diversify your income and have multiple streams of income.

If I'm a profitable house flipper and I create a course telling others how to do what I do, if the market turns south or shit happens or lending tightens up, I still have that revenue stream going.

That's not in any way an endorsement of OTA but seems everyone always has the same knee jerk reaction about paying for consulting, teaching or information why would someone sell it and I think that's a poor argument against something

Nope, not the same. Stock picking is basically zero labor at this point, so any strategy that (allegedly) works would be trivial to do yourself. On the other hand consulting in running a business (e.g. saying where to improve), compared to all the other complexities of running a business are vastly different. Same with house flipping; instructing people on how to do it is simple. Actually doing it requires capital, research, work, connections etc etc. So teaching is much easier than doing. I struggle to think of any other field where the selling of a teaching program actually takes more work than the activity it purports to teach. Stock picking is perhaps unique in that regard.

tralfamadorian

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2018, 04:39:16 PM »
Now as for their little $300 weekend class.

Just wondering if I should have any hopes of it actually working?

Zero chance. Absolutely zero.

What is a non-zero chance is that they will try to sell you on the next level intensive. Yep! BBB tells me the next level is $55k. From the full 2016 pricelist I found elsewhere, that appears to be the training for all five "markets." Don't have $55k handy? Don't worry- they'll finance it for you at 17%.

Instead of going with him, I would do anything I could to prevent my father from going. BBB reviews, forum discussions, paying him back the $300 and asking him to go on a real week long father/son trip together instead of attending a scam designed to steal the financial future of the attendees.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 07:35:05 PM by tralfamadorian »

WalkaboutStache

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2018, 06:28:05 PM »
A bit off topic but to the whole point about why would someone teach someone if they had a money making machine. I think that's one of the worst arguments against this type of thing. You could say that about literally any subject matter. Why do consultants exist? If consultants were so good at improving businesses why don't they start their own instead of just making a small fee to help others businesses?

Why does education in any form exist, people could make more money doing whatever activity it is they teach about.

I think like you said with your friend, in addition to whatever she makes in tech and running tech businesses, she has through time and effort developed a knowledge that is valuable and useful to others and she would almost be a fool not to capitalize on that. Plus it's always good to diversify your income and have multiple streams of income.

If I'm a profitable house flipper and I create a course telling others how to do what I do, if the market turns south or shit happens or lending tightens up, I still have that revenue stream going.

That's not in any way an endorsement of OTA but seems everyone always has the same knee jerk reaction about paying for consulting, teaching or information why would someone sell it and I think that's a poor argument against something

Nope, not the same. Stock picking is basically zero labor at this point, so any strategy that (allegedly) works would be trivial to do yourself. On the other hand consulting in running a business (e.g. saying where to improve), compared to all the other complexities of running a business are vastly different. Same with house flipping; instructing people on how to do it is simple. Actually doing it requires capital, research, work, connections etc etc. So teaching is much easier than doing. I struggle to think of any other field where the selling of a teaching program actually takes more work than the activity it purports to teach. Stock picking is perhaps unique in that regard.

Yet another ludicrous aspect of this whole stock picking scam.  It is either cheap as chips (just use this here method and get rich), or ludicrously expensive.

Banks and proprietary trading houses (guys who trade their own money) spend millions employing people whose math skills often are good enough for theoretical physics, researching and poking obscure corners of markets, buying hardware, software and dedicated network lines to try to do this.  Then a guy comes and says that for $99.99 and a sandwich, he can teach you to outsmart all those people.

You'd do better buying a bridge somewhere.

Andy R

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Re: Attending Online Trading Academy Core Strategy Program - Anyone been?
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2018, 08:13:09 PM »
Instead of going with him, I would do anything I could to prevent my father from going. BBB reviews, forum discussions, paying him back the $300 and asking him to go on a real week long father/son trip together instead of attending a scam designed to steal the financial future of the attendees.

This is a very good point.
It's one thing to realise there is a load of b.s. in there and all you lose is a few hours of your time. It is is a whole other thing to realise that your gullible dad will get talked into losing losing 10's of thousands of dollars that he worked so hard to save for retirement. Ugh .. it's very very hard seeing the ones you care about totally fk things up and then have to wear the consequences.