Author Topic: Vanguard Diversification  (Read 3332 times)

TyGuy

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Vanguard Diversification
« on: December 05, 2023, 10:07:00 AM »
Hello,

I currently have a large portion of my net worth tied up in VTSAX. I am wanting to add a bit more diversity into my portfolio as I continue to add more money to it. I am wonder what other vanguard funds you all recommend (small index, foreign indexes, etc.) and what percentage of my portfolio I should a-lot to each fund. I thought I remembered reading about this somewhere in the past but have been unable to locate the information.

Thank you, I look forward to reading what you all have to say!

RWD

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2023, 10:45:13 AM »
Are you looking for something like this?
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Three-fund_portfolio

Portfolio theory is heavily debated and personal. No one can tell you what is best for you.

Must_ache

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2023, 11:08:08 AM »
I don't think VTSAX is as diversified as people think.  The top five holdings (AAPL, MSFT, AMZN, NVDA, GOOGL) account for almost 20% of the $$.
You could also add some VEU which excludes the United States - that would give you a decent international component.  Almost every stock is no more more than 1% of the fund.
You could also buy some TBIL or actual treasury bills and get a yield of over 5%.
My brokerage account shows JP Morgan Chase 1-yr CD's available at 5.6%.
There are easy to find bond funds that might do OK now that interest rates seem less likely to mushroon.
 

ATtiny85

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2023, 12:19:42 PM »
For the US equity market, VTSAX is about as good as most of us need, I'd say. Of course it is top heavy, because it just reflects the US market where a small number of large companies dominate. If you want to tilt, you are saying that there is some sort of imbalance in the market. There likely is...it just isn't clear where.

Like RWD posted, you can find the International and Bond components that can round out your diversification. A big decision right now likely is what to hold for the non-equity portion. Bond fund, Bonds (with the subset of types), CDs.

I will say, be careful not to fall into the trap a lot of us have at times. Don't think that more funds equals more diversification.

VanillaGorilla

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2023, 01:57:53 PM »
I don't think VTSAX is as diversified as people think.  The top five holdings (AAPL, MSFT, AMZN, NVDA, GOOGL) account for almost 20% of the $$.
That's emphatically a feature, not a bug.

Telecaster

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2023, 02:07:37 PM »
Are you looking for something like this?
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Three-fund_portfolio

Portfolio theory is heavily debated and personal. No one can tell you what is best for you.

Co-signed.  And no one will know what the "best" portfolio is until a number of years in the future.    Even if you construct the optimum portfolio, there is a possibility it will underperform the index for years at a time.   

There are good, logical reasons why it may be preferable to deviate from the traditional cap weighted index.   But I don't think there is virtue in diversification for diversification's sake. 

Telecaster

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2023, 02:10:24 PM »
I don't think VTSAX is as diversified as people think.  The top five holdings (AAPL, MSFT, AMZN, NVDA, GOOGL) account for almost 20% of the $$.
That's emphatically a feature, not a bug.

It has been lately, for sure.   In times past, not as much. 

weebs

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2023, 03:13:31 PM »
I've been thinking about this lately.  What do you guys think of the Vanguard Target Date Funds?  JLCollins seems to approve:

https://jlcollinsnh.com/2012/12/18/stocks-part-xv-target-retirement-funds-the-simplest-path-to-wealth-of-all/

RWD

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2023, 03:49:43 PM »
I've been thinking about this lately.  What do you guys think of the Vanguard Target Date Funds?  JLCollins seems to approve:

https://jlcollinsnh.com/2012/12/18/stocks-part-xv-target-retirement-funds-the-simplest-path-to-wealth-of-all/

It's certainly simpler, but you still have to choose how aggressive you want to be (by choosing a date) and they are more expensive than just buying the underlying funds directly and adjusting splits over time.

ATtiny85

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2023, 05:11:18 PM »
I've been thinking about this lately.  What do you guys think of the Vanguard Target Date Funds?  JLCollins seems to approve:

https://jlcollinsnh.com/2012/12/18/stocks-part-xv-target-retirement-funds-the-simplest-path-to-wealth-of-all/

Fine in tax advantaged. Just ignore the date and buy the allocation you want. Glide path slope might not match what you want.

In general, one can do a lot worse for sure.

nereo

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2023, 05:28:50 PM »
I don't think VTSAX is as diversified as people think.  The top five holdings (AAPL, MSFT, AMZN, NVDA, GOOGL) account for almost 20% of the $$.
That's emphatically a feature, not a bug.

It has been lately, for sure.   In times past, not as much.

I suppose it’s all in how you look at it. Certainly there are times when companies with a smaller market cap have beaten the top 25 in the SP500. But the SP500 is market weighted by design. Apple, Google and MS are worth over 6T collectively and directly employ about 500k people. Their quarterly revenue eclipses the bottom third. Companies like Alaskan Airlines are worth less than 1/500th of Apple.

Sure, you could hold all 500 companies and give equal weight to each (each company would be about 0.2% of your total portfolio)… but that’s not increasing your diversification. Your volatility would almost certainly go way up too, as smaller companies can have much greater swings.

weebs

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2023, 05:51:43 PM »
It's certainly simpler, but you still have to choose how aggressive you want to be (by choosing a date) and they are more expensive than just buying the underlying funds directly and adjusting splits over time.

Quote from: ATtiny85
It's certainly simpler, but you still have to choose how aggressive you want to be (by choosing a date) and they are more expensive than just buying the underlying funds directly and adjusting splits over time.

Thanks for the feedback.  @ATtiny85 - that lines up with what I was planning - ignore the date, focus on a more aggressive allocation and rely on our cash buffer during a downturn.

VanillaGorilla

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2023, 06:31:51 PM »
I don't think VTSAX is as diversified as people think.  The top five holdings (AAPL, MSFT, AMZN, NVDA, GOOGL) account for almost 20% of the $$.
That's emphatically a feature, not a bug.

It has been lately, for sure.   In times past, not as much.

I suppose it’s all in how you look at it. Certainly there are times when companies with a smaller market cap have beaten the top 25 in the SP500. But the SP500 is market weighted by design. Apple, Google and MS are worth over 6T collectively and directly employ about 500k people. Their quarterly revenue eclipses the bottom third. Companies like Alaskan Airlines are worth less than 1/500th of Apple.

Sure, you could hold all 500 companies and give equal weight to each (each company would be about 0.2% of your total portfolio)… but that’s not increasing your diversification. Your volatility would almost certainly go way up too, as smaller companies can have much greater swings.
Exactly. There's always all this hand-wringing about subjects that are intrinsically how indices work. You can't complain about the SP500 being dominated by a few large cap stocks, because it's by definition a market cap weighted index. It will always be dominated by large cap companies. That's by design.

There are tons of visualizations of historical data, for example this nice video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfMFDcuDKYA

Saying "oh no! The S&P is dominated by five companies!" has been true virtually always, depending on your technical definition of "dominated".
« Last Edit: December 05, 2023, 06:57:09 PM by VanillaGorilla »

tooqk4u22

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2023, 06:42:13 PM »
I don't think VTSAX is as diversified as people think.  The top five holdings (AAPL, MSFT, AMZN, NVDA, GOOGL) account for almost 20% of the $$.
That's emphatically a feature, not a bug.

It has been lately, for sure.   In times past, not as much.

I suppose it’s all in how you look at it. Certainly there are times when companies with a smaller market cap have beaten the top 25 in the SP500. But the SP500 is market weighted by design. Apple, Google and MS are worth over 6T collectively and directly employ about 500k people. Their quarterly revenue eclipses the bottom third. Companies like Alaskan Airlines are worth less than 1/500th of Apple.

Sure, you could hold all 500 companies and give equal weight to each (each company would be about 0.2% of your total portfolio)… but that’s not increasing your diversification. Your volatility would almost certainly go way up too, as smaller companies can have much greater swings.

Top companies don't stay top companies forever.   The beauty of the SP 500 is that as companies innovate and grow they replace those that slow down and become complacent.  I believe that as companies get too big they become layered with bureaucracy and that drives creatives out who then start their own things.  It's funny bc we think that megatech is different but they have only been the big dogs for the last 10-15 years or so.   

This is a great depiction to see the top companies in sp500 since 1980.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kfMFDcuDKYA

ATtiny85

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2023, 06:50:46 PM »


This is a great depiction to see the top companies in sp500 since 1980.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kfMFDcuDKYA

Thanks for sharing. I had seen static depictions of the turnover before, but never this.

TyGuy

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2023, 07:07:44 PM »
Thank you all for the replies, I'm glad to see I've been on the right track so far!

Telecaster

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2023, 04:51:56 PM »
I suppose it’s all in how you look at it. Certainly there are times when companies with a smaller market cap have beaten the top 25 in the SP500. But the SP500 is market weighted by design. Apple, Google and MS are worth over 6T collectively and directly employ about 500k people. Their quarterly revenue eclipses the bottom third. Companies like Alaskan Airlines are worth less than 1/500th of Apple.

Sure, you could hold all 500 companies and give equal weight to each (each company would be about 0.2% of your total portfolio)… but that’s not increasing your diversification. Your volatility would almost certainly go way up too, as smaller companies can have much greater swings.

It definitely increases your diversification.   Your dollars are spread more evenly across the field instead of being concentrated in fewer companies with similar characteristics.  That is the definition of diversification.  Now, you may not want that.  But you are indeed getting more diversification.

Since you've already started drilling down to individual companies in the index, let's take it a bit further.   The Big Seven tech companies have an average P/E of about 40, compared to the rest of the index which is about 18.    Several of those companies had P/E in the teens just a few years ago, so they've gotten much more expensive over the last few years.   Same for other metrics like P/S.    Is concentrating your portfolio in high P/E companies good diversification? 


Exactly. There's always all this hand-wringing about subjects that are intrinsically how indices work. You can't complain about the SP500 being dominated by a few large cap stocks, because it's by definition a market cap weighted index. It will always be dominated by large cap companies. That's by design.

It is indeed by design, but the S&P 500's design has nothing to do with investing.   The S&P 500 index was created to describe leading industries in a format simple enough it could be calculated once per hour.   This replaced predecessor indices that included smaller numbers of stocks that were calculated once per day, or even once per week.   Investing in the S&P 500 index wasn't even possible for another couple decades after it was created. 

I think it is entirely reasonable, prudent in fact, to examine the idea there might be improvements to the OG index in the decades that followed.  And in fact, Standard & Poor created an equal weight S&P 500 index about 20 years ago, which has outperformed the OG index since that time.   This is a post-discovery finding, so the results are compelling.  But S&P's backtest to 1990 showed even more outperformance.  And others have backtested equal weight even farther and on other indices like the NASDAQ and Wilshire 5000 which resulted in similar outperformance of about 1-2% over any reasonably long period of time.   

To be 100% clear, I think the traditional "fire and forget" advice of putting in VTSAX and not looking back is great advice.   I've never discouraged anyone from doing that.   The opposite in fact.   But it doesn't follow there aren't good logical reasons why other strategies are worthwhile too.   

VanillaGorilla

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2023, 06:14:12 PM »
I don't mean to quibble - you can buy whatever you want, whether it's QQQ or VTI or VFINX or a small cap value fund or whatever, and all investing principles apply and you'll probably do well if you buy and hold and buy some more.

Quote
I think it is entirely reasonable, prudent in fact, to examine the idea there might be improvements to the OG index in the decades that followed.  And in fact, Standard & Poor created an equal weight S&P 500 index about 20 years ago, which has outperformed the OG index since that time.   This is a post-discovery finding, so the results are compelling.  But S&P's backtest to 1990 showed even more outperformance.  And others have backtested equal weight even farther and on other indices like the NASDAQ and Wilshire 5000 which resulted in similar outperformance of about 1-2% over any reasonably long period of time.   
Really? I'm not very familiar with the Wilshire 5000 but it looks like it lagged the total market quite consistently over the last 20 years. The Invesco equal weight S&P500 fund performed very similarly to the total market over the same period of time.

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/backtest-portfolio?s=y&sl=6l4ILCAhwjbEyMqdM741H8

Doesn't seem to be a compelling reason not to do the simplest possible thing - but the index of your choice and buy some more.

Telecaster

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Re: Vanguard Diversification
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2023, 06:52:36 PM »
Really? I'm not very familiar with the Wilshire 5000 but it looks like it lagged the total market quite consistently over the last 20 years. The Invesco equal weight S&P500 fund performed very similarly to the total market over the same period of time.

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/backtest-portfolio?s=y&sl=6l4ILCAhwjbEyMqdM741H8

Doesn't seem to be a compelling reason not to do the simplest possible thing - but the index of your choice and buy some more.

To be clear, the equal weight Wilshire 5000 outperformed the cap weighted Wilshire 5000 (as per the link).   Just another data point that equal weight outperforms cap weight across multiple indices. 

And yes, simple when it comes to investing has great virtue.