Author Topic: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR  (Read 3712 times)

SeattleCPA

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Some of you guys know, I've gotten sort of, er, intrigued with using Nobel Laureate Robert Merton's research and math to optimize one's allocation to equities and to think about safe withdrawal rates.

If anyone else is interested, my forum signature now provides links to two of the calculators / blog posts where I provide and discuss these tools.

P.S. ChatGPT basically wrote the JavaScript (with a bit of help from a couple of MMMers!) and also wrote the Python script used to generate the line chart. The JavaScript is visible if you display the source code for the page. Also I'm happy to provide the Python script if someone is curious.

Edit 2/20/2025:

I changed my sig so let me provide those again here:

https://evergreensmallbusiness.com/merton-share-estimator/ estimates a Merton share

https://evergreensmallbusiness.com/super-safe-withdrawal-rate/ estimates the certainty-equivalent rate.


« Last Edit: February 20, 2025, 05:23:36 AM by SeattleCPA »

ChpBstrd

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2024, 02:10:03 PM »
Not to cast shade on a Nobel Laureate with my silly internet person opinion, but if we knew some of the variables going into the equation, we'd already know what to invest in.

Geometric Equity Return - Presumably backward looking, but looking backward was a fallacy in the 1930s and 1970s. Investors in the 2000's lost decade did not get the long-term average they were promised. If forward looking, how to account for the sky-high CAPE? Maybe this is an "expected return" number, based on what other investors are paying above the risk free options.

Inflation - If we could be confident about inflation numbers, we'd be making millions doing bond swaps. Economists currently lack a working model of inflation that hasn't been debunked by previous experience, so this is an unknowable.

Equity and Risk-free SD
- The standard deviation of equities has ranged from 28.8% for International to 16.1% for large cap US. For fixed income, it's ranged from 10.2% for high yield to 2% for t-bills. Yes, we can break this down and solve for any portfolio, but there remain measurement issues such as selecting a good starting and ending point, and changes in volatility/variance within different periods of time. Looking toward the future, if I knew the next year would be a low or high SD year for stocks, I'd make millions investing in options straddles or strangles.

I suspect the returns on equities or fixed income depends more on macro factors, purchase valuation, and technological developments than the past performance or standard deviations. And inflation is currently unpredictable. So while the Merton math has theoretical beauty, its inputs are what I would be interested to know as outputs.

SeattleCPA

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2024, 08:01:03 AM »
Not to cast shade on a Nobel Laureate with my silly internet person opinion, but if we knew some of the variables going into the equation, we'd already know what to invest in.

First, let me express appreciation for a thoughtful response and good writing. Seriously.

But with regard to the variables going into the equation, in a simplified situation, only three exist: equity return, risk-free return and volatility (or standard deviation).

The risk-free return we can know with near certainty. Use the 10-year TIPS. The equity return and standard deviation trickier, sure. But don't we gain enormous insights if we do the math?

For example, I'm very interested in the formula results that say a 100% stocks portfolio for most of the last century was too low an allocation for many investors. That's a paradigm shifting insight. It also suggests to me that we miss an opportunity when we ignore the volatility and risk premiums.

I also think there's real value in having a quantitative approach to setting our asset allocation. I feel like in many online forum threads these days and also in conversations with clients, people are asking "should I dial down my equities allocation?" Seems like a quantitative answer makes more sense than some rule of thumb or gut feeling. 

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Geometric Equity Return - Presumably backward looking, but looking backward was a fallacy in the 1930s and 1970s. Investors in the 2000's lost decade did not get the long-term average they were promised. If forward looking, how to account for the sky-high CAPE? Maybe this is an "expected return" number, based on what other investors are paying above the risk free options.

You'd use expected return not historical.  (Also going to note that with the 100% allocation to stocks rule of thumb and the 4% SWR rule of thumb, people are implicitly using backward looking returns.) But regarding forward looking returns, we have a bunch of similar approaches--all of which are already calculated for you and me by the big financial services firms like Vanguard, Fidelity, Goldman Sachs etc. You can also just use the formulas yourself which financial writers (John Bogle, William Bernstein, Larry Swedroe, Rick Ferri, etc) have described and illustrated for us.

BTW, Vanguard's most recent forecast suggests a 3.8% nominal return for US stocks, 3.9% nominal return for TIPS, and 17% volatility. I like to work in real returns, so if we adjust those numbers for their expected 2.4% inflation, we're talking a 1.4% expected real return for US stocks and a 1.5% expected real return for risk-free assets.

Those are pretty pessimistic: Using the CAPE 10 approach--CAPE is nearly 40--we're looking a real return of around 2.5% for US equities.

If one uses the Gordon dividend model to DIY your own estimate, you're talking about adding together a 1.2% dividend yield and expected real growth in the economy so depending on the forecaster, in line with the above percentages?

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Inflation - If we could be confident about inflation numbers, we'd be making millions doing bond swaps. Economists currently lack a working model of inflation that hasn't been debunked by previous experience, so this is an unknowable.

The above statement seems like maybe an oversimplification. My understanding (which is imperfect!) is the Phillips curve, monetarist (Milton Friedman), Cost-Push and Demand-Pull and the new Keynesian models aren't perfect. But I believe people think they're workable?

Quote
Equity and Risk-free SD[/b] - The standard deviation of equities has ranged from 28.8% for International to 16.1% for large cap US. For fixed income, it's ranged from 10.2% for high yield to 2% for t-bills. Yes, we can break this down and solve for any portfolio, but there remain measurement issues such as selecting a good starting and ending point, and changes in volatility/variance within different periods of time. Looking toward the future, if I knew the next year would be a low or high SD year for stocks, I'd make millions investing in options straddles or strangles.

I don't think the starting and ending date thing is issue here. We're looking forward. Also as a point of fact, we do know pretty accurately the volatility on US stocks for next month because of the VIX.

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I suspect the returns on equities or fixed income depends more on macro factors, purchase valuation, and technological developments than the past performance or standard deviations. And inflation is currently unpredictable. So while the Merton math has theoretical beauty, its inputs are what I would be interested to know as outputs.

Another point of clarification: Merton isn't talking about fixed income per se but rather risk-free assets. That's surely something like intermediate treasuries at the time he was writing. Now, seems to me, TIPS are better source?

Let me say again, I appreciate your thoughtful analysis and good writing. The scissor blades sharpen each other.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2024, 08:04:58 AM by SeattleCPA »

VanillaGorilla

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2024, 08:52:38 AM »

BTW, Vanguard's most recent forecast suggests a 3.8% nominal return for US stocks, 3.9% nominal return for TIPS, and 17% volatility. I like to work in real returns, so if we adjust those numbers for their expected 2.4% inflation, we're talking a 1.4% expected real return for US stocks and a 1.5% expected real return for risk-free assets.

Those are pretty pessimistic: Using the CAPE 10 approach--CAPE is nearly 40--we're looking a real return of around 2.5% for US equities.

It's hard to take such CAPE forecasts seriously when they've so consistently been wrong.


Wintergreen78

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2024, 11:53:03 AM »

BTW, Vanguard's most recent forecast suggests a 3.8% nominal return for US stocks, 3.9% nominal return for TIPS, and 17% volatility. I like to work in real returns, so if we adjust those numbers for their expected 2.4% inflation, we're talking a 1.4% expected real return for US stocks and a 1.5% expected real return for risk-free assets.

Those are pretty pessimistic: Using the CAPE 10 approach--CAPE is nearly 40--we're looking a real return of around 2.5% for US equities.

It's hard to take such CAPE forecasts seriously when they've so consistently been wrong.


That’s really interesting. One thing I get from that graph is that the CAPE model does give a good idea of the direction of returns. It has consistently under-estimated returns, but if you shifted the projection up by about 5 percentage points, those lines look like they would match really well.

I’m still not going to use that to make any investment decisions, but it is an interesting comparison.

Radagast

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2024, 01:00:21 PM »

BTW, Vanguard's most recent forecast suggests a 3.8% nominal return for US stocks, 3.9% nominal return for TIPS, and 17% volatility. I like to work in real returns, so if we adjust those numbers for their expected 2.4% inflation, we're talking a 1.4% expected real return for US stocks and a 1.5% expected real return for risk-free assets.

Those are pretty pessimistic: Using the CAPE 10 approach--CAPE is nearly 40--we're looking a real return of around 2.5% for US equities.

It's hard to take such CAPE forecasts seriously when they've so consistently been wrong.

What model is that? It doesn’t look like what Seattle CPA was saying. Using his model 1/CAPE then negative returns are never expected. My cape model would be 1/CAPE10 + .6% real,  so even at .com peak I would “expect” ~3% annualized positive real 10 year returns. I’d also add +/- 5% though.

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2024, 12:46:27 AM »
Vanguard had a whitepaper (now gone from their site) that examined what was most correlated with future returns.  The highest correlation, with I recall about 0.43, was the 10 year cyclically adjusted P/E ratio (CAPE).  Plain P/E ratio scored slightly lower, 0.40 I think.  And all manner of other indicators were below those two.  CAPE also has proved itself after it was invented, meaning it predicted future returns rather than just fitting past history.
https://www.multpl.com/shiller-pe

What does a better job of predicting future returns than CAPE ratio?

SeattleCPA

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2024, 06:49:32 AM »
Vanguard had a whitepaper (now gone from their site) that examined what was most correlated with future returns.  The highest correlation, with I recall about 0.43, was the 10 year cyclically adjusted P/E ratio (CAPE).  Plain P/E ratio scored slightly lower, 0.40 I think.  And all manner of other indicators were below those two.  CAPE also has proved itself after it was invented, meaning it predicted future returns rather than just fitting past history.
https://www.multpl.com/shiller-pe

What does a better job of predicting future returns than CAPE ratio?

Exactly.

I think what people do is say CAPE 10 isn't perfect (or is very imperfect).

And then implicitly, assume their future returns will converge to the 150-year historical average.

Two serious flaws with the "assume future looks like the (average of) past."
1. Investors in past weren't actually guaranteed to get the average. (Sequence of returns risk is an example of this of course.)
2. The past is a very small sample size to generalize from. If we're talking 25 years of work and 25 years of retirement--so a 50-year case--we have three data points.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2024, 12:04:02 PM »
The risk-free return we can know with near certainty. Use the 10-year TIPS. The equity return and standard deviation trickier, sure. But don't we gain enormous insights if we do the math?
I wonder if we are comparing apples to oranges when only the risk-free rate is inflation-adjusted, but expected stock returns and the SD thereof are not based on inflation-adjusted numbers. One effect would be setting the risk-free rate too low. E.g. the current TIPS yield as I type this is 2.07% but one can also get a risk-free 4.387% from the nominal 10 year treasury. Drop these different numbers into Merton's equation (or a DCF equation) and you'll get very different results.

Measuring both the risky and risk-free sides in like terms, either inflation-adjusted or not, is also consequential because the effects of inflation sometimes overwhelm returns. For an example, look at Turkyie's Borsa Instanbul 100 Index. It's up 28.5% YTD in nominal terms, and that looks very good to those of us accustomed to low-single digit inflation. But in fact TTM inflation in Turkyie was 47% as of November, and their risk-free rate is currently 50%! So it's possible for the stock market to deliver strong returns that are actually losses in inflation-adjusted terms, and in many countries the inflation adjustment could flip the attractiveness of a historical series of returns, as is the case for Turkish stocks.

Maybe in the U.S. the adjustment is usually only 2-3% per year (with compounding) but even that little difference will add up in a historical series used to justify an estimate of expected returns.
Quote
You'd use expected return not historical.  (Also going to note that with the 100% allocation to stocks rule of thumb and the 4% SWR rule of thumb, people are implicitly using backward looking returns.) But regarding forward looking returns, we have a bunch of similar approaches--all of which are already calculated for you and me by the big financial services firms like Vanguard, Fidelity, Goldman Sachs etc. You can also just use the formulas yourself which financial writers (John Bogle, William Bernstein, Larry Swedroe, Rick Ferri, etc) have described and illustrated for us.

BTW, Vanguard's most recent forecast suggests a 3.8% nominal return for US stocks, 3.9% nominal return for TIPS, and 17% volatility. I like to work in real returns, so if we adjust those numbers for their expected 2.4% inflation, we're talking a 1.4% expected real return for US stocks and a 1.5% expected real return for risk-free assets.

Those are pretty pessimistic: Using the CAPE 10 approach--CAPE is nearly 40--we're looking a real return of around 2.5% for US equities.

If one uses the Gordon dividend model to DIY your own estimate, you're talking about adding together a 1.2% dividend yield and expected real growth in the economy so depending on the forecaster, in line with the above percentages?
I would expect there to be a lot of diversity in the models and outcomes produced by various academics and firms. The estimators  who are willing to release more nuance and details, like Vanguard historically has done, will apply a 2% or wider band of "plus or minus" range to the central point on their return rather than just publishing one number as their estimate. This reflects how it's hard for any mathematical model to account for investors' willingness to pay high PE ratios at some times and sell at low PE ratios at others, or more specifically to require high equity risk premiums at some times but not others. These psychological-cultural factors are based on things that can't be predicted with enough certainty to fit into the equations, like legislation, foreign affairs / wars, consumer behavior, climate events, technological developments, monetary policy decisions by humans, and worker productivity.

I lost the link, but at one point last week found a Vanguard forecast from 2012. They were pessimistic for many good reasons. They were wrong not because the reasons were wrong, but because over the next ten years investors became willing to pay higher valuations for almost all asset classes ("the everything bubble") as the money supply increased.

So again, we're back to "if I knew these inputs, I'd already know how to invest." The presence of precise estimates of forward equity returns, even if produced with mathematical inputs, should not imply that we have accurate estimates. Maybe my critique of the Merton model boils down to taking a wild-ass-guess like Vanguard's estimate of equity returns and obscuring the uncertainty around that guess, treating it like an accurate measurement of something.
Quote
Quote
Inflation - If we could be confident about inflation numbers, we'd be making millions doing bond swaps. Economists currently lack a working model of inflation that hasn't been debunked by previous experience, so this is an unknowable.
The above statement seems like maybe an oversimplification. My understanding (which is imperfect!) is the Phillips curve, monetarist (Milton Friedman), Cost-Push and Demand-Pull and the new Keynesian models aren't perfect. But I believe people think they're workable?
They're certainly better than nothing, but they do not always converge on the same recommendations/predictions, and they have each been contradicted by historical experience. My statement that the economics profession currently lacks a working model of inflation is summarized in succinct terms by this video by an economist.

If anything, it seems that perhaps all our previously developed inflation models are too simplistic. Each failed to anticipate the chain of events that eventually contradicted it. Perhaps a real-world model would be some algorithmic amalgamation of each, and have some sort of branching logic or dynamic factor weighting that would rely more or less on aggregate demand (focus of Keysians), money supply (focus of Monetarists), etc. etc. Then the model would require constant tweaking to keep up with the constant changing of the economy, culture, and technology.
Quote
Quote
Equity and Risk-free SD[/b] - The standard deviation of equities has ranged from 28.8% for International to 16.1% for large cap US. For fixed income, it's ranged from 10.2% for high yield to 2% for t-bills. Yes, we can break this down and solve for any portfolio, but there remain measurement issues such as selecting a good starting and ending point, and changes in volatility/variance within different periods of time. Looking toward the future, if I knew the next year would be a low or high SD year for stocks, I'd make millions investing in options straddles or strangles.

I don't think the starting and ending date thing is issue here. We're looking forward. Also as a point of fact, we do know pretty accurately the volatility on US stocks for next month because of the VIX.
Researchers have found the VIX tends to imply volatility over 4% higher than what is actually realized 30 days later, and that there are long periods of VIX underestimation and overestimation. VIX is perhaps a superior measurement compared to forward estimates of equity returns produced by a half-dozen analysts, for motives we may not fully understand. VIX is after all a market measure, where thousands of people have money on the line. However it is still a human estimate that was historically unable to predict volatility events like the COVID crash, the taper tantrum, the GFC, and so on. If anything, VIX seems like a lagging indicator, telling us something about what volatility was in the recent past.

So if we're looking forward, I think the best we could do is guess the long-term historical average volatility. That is, to look backward. But of course that's not going to predict the next volatility event either. It would additionally be expected to fail at predicting multi-year changes in volatility, up or down.

We're left with expected equity returns and SDs being backward looking, and inflation estimates being backward looking. Are we predicting data series in the future or are we actually measuring what would have been the best portfolios in the past? Maybe this question gets to the epistemic issue of using math (deductive process) with historical data series to predict the future (inductive process). The presence of the math can trick us into thinking we're not basing everything on inductive reasoning, and drawing past trendlines into the future.

SeattleCPA

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2024, 07:00:14 AM »
I wonder if we are comparing apples to oranges when only the risk-free rate is inflation-adjusted, but expected stock returns and the SD thereof are not based on inflation-adjusted numbers. One effect would be setting the risk-free rate too low. E.g. the current TIPS yield as I type this is 2.07% but one can also get a risk-free 4.387% from the nominal 10 year treasury. Drop these different numbers into Merton's equation (or a DCF equation) and you'll get very different results.

Let me read through your remarks and comment more fully after doing that. But just a quick comment about above: Yes, agree. I think we need to use either real or nominal returns for both equity and risk-free returns. And then we usually need to convert the geometric mean or average to an arithmetic mean or average.

Not to go too far off topic, but the other question is whether you assume some volatility for the risk-free return. Conceptually, the risk-free return should show no volatility. ChatGPT tells me that's the "textbook" assumption. But the apples to oranges issue to me applies there too. If you're going to tweak assume the equity returns show volatility, shouldn't you assume the risk-free returns do too? Since obviously that happens (even if it doesn't make much of a difference.)

ChpBstrd

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2024, 07:32:40 AM »
Not to go too far off topic, but the other question is whether you assume some volatility for the risk-free return. Conceptually, the risk-free return should show no volatility. ChatGPT tells me that's the "textbook" assumption. But the apples to oranges issue to me applies there too. If you're going to tweak assume the equity returns show volatility, shouldn't you assume the risk-free returns do too? Since obviously that happens (even if it doesn't make much of a difference.)
Definitely!

People using ten-year treasuries as their risk-free asset got a rude awakening in 2022.

SeattleCPA

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2024, 07:36:10 AM »

I would expect there to be a lot of diversity in the models and outcomes produced by various academics and firms. The estimators  who are willing to release more nuance and details, like Vanguard historically has done, will apply a 2% or wider band of "plus or minus" range to the central point on their return rather than just publishing one number as their estimate. This reflects how it's hard for any mathematical model to account for investors' willingness to pay high PE ratios at some times and sell at low PE ratios at others, or more specifically to require high equity risk premiums at some times but not others. These psychological-cultural factors are based on things that can't be predicted with enough certainty to fit into the equations, like legislation, foreign affairs / wars, consumer behavior, climate events, technological developments, monetary policy decisions by humans, and worker productivity.

We may be arguing (in a polite way!) about whether the glass is half full or half empty.

E.g., I think the actual volatility or variability realized when something like the COVID pandemic occurs is an example of the possible volatility or variability reflected in that standard deviation estimate.

Similarly, that the actual appearance of AI is another example of the possible volatility or variability.

Quote

So again, we're back to "if I knew these inputs, I'd already know how to invest." The presence of precise estimates of forward equity returns, even if produced with mathematical inputs, should not imply that we have accurate estimates. Maybe my critique of the Merton model boils down to taking a wild-ass-guess like Vanguard's estimate of equity returns and obscuring the uncertainty around that guess, treating it like an accurate measurement of something.

It seems unfair to call it a wild-ass guess. But if that is a fair label, what is the right label for assumption that ultimately one can be nearly assured of enjoying the historical average in the US? And what's the implicit volatility assumption when folks do that?

Many individual investors generalize from a very small sample size, assume time-in-market will ultimately redress any losses, and think returns are nearly guaranteed to revert to the mean... so is man on the street assuming a long-term "practical" volatility of, yikes, zero?

Quote

So if we're looking forward, I think the best we could do is guess the long-term historical average volatility. That is, to look backward. But of course that's not going to predict the next volatility event either. It would additionally be expected to fail at predicting multi-year changes in volatility, up or down.

We're left with expected equity returns and SDs being backward looking, and inflation estimates being backward looking. Are we predicting data series in the future or are we actually measuring what would have been the best portfolios in the past? Maybe this question gets to the epistemic issue of using math (deductive process) with historical data series to predict the future (inductive process). The presence of the math can trick us into thinking we're not basing everything on inductive reasoning, and drawing past trendlines into the future.

I'm at danger of repeating myself, or am now repeating myself, but it seems like you're arguing that one can't make better decisions by using estimates of the future... so we're just going to plug a percentage (that approach to me is the wild-ass-guess btw) into the formulas we're all using whether we realize it or not.

Respectfully I disagree. I'd say Merton style thinking and math gives you or me or others here a way to quantitively think about whether the equity premium US stocks is enough to bear the risk.

I'd also say it provides insights that may boost investors returns over a lifetime.

Final point: Again, appreciate your thoughtful analysis and clarity of expression. You make strong, good points. Thank you.

« Last Edit: December 18, 2024, 07:37:41 AM by SeattleCPA »

ChpBstrd

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2024, 01:40:21 PM »

I would expect there to be a lot of diversity in the models and outcomes produced by various academics and firms. The estimators  who are willing to release more nuance and details, like Vanguard historically has done, will apply a 2% or wider band of "plus or minus" range to the central point on their return rather than just publishing one number as their estimate. This reflects how it's hard for any mathematical model to account for investors' willingness to pay high PE ratios at some times and sell at low PE ratios at others, or more specifically to require high equity risk premiums at some times but not others. These psychological-cultural factors are based on things that can't be predicted with enough certainty to fit into the equations, like legislation, foreign affairs / wars, consumer behavior, climate events, technological developments, monetary policy decisions by humans, and worker productivity.

We may be arguing (in a polite way!) about whether the glass is half full or half empty.

E.g., I think the actual volatility or variability realized when something like the COVID pandemic occurs is an example of the possible volatility or variability reflected in that standard deviation estimate.

Similarly, that the actual appearance of AI is another example of the possible volatility or variability.
I agree in principle, and thank you for your contributions to my own thought process. For example the 9/11 attacks and the 1987 flash crash should be reflected in SD. Those exact events will never happen again in exactly the same way, but similarly volatile times and unexpected events will certainly occur again.

I just wonder if there's more to the future than SD. E.g. are periods of extreme high/low valuations or volatility mean-reverting? If anything is mean-reverting, then the actually realized movement of that variable in the future will be to only one side of the range implied by the way we use SD. I'll use a semi-related variable as an example, if the Shiller PE ratio is currently 38.5 and the 5-year SD is (making it up) 10, then we might forecast that the Shiller PE going to 48 is within the central tendency of the normal distribution. Actually, a Shiller PE above 45 is so rare it has never happened, because there are fundamental pressures that prevent it from getting that high, such as bond yields exceeding likely future returns. So as the Shiller PE approaches its upper range, movements downward become much more likely than movements upward.

Merton is not modeling a normal distribution, but there is an implication in the way his equation uses SD that the equity risk premium could go either way with equal odds, as in a normal distribution. That might be the case when the ERP is in the center of its range, but may not be the case when it is far above or below its norm.

More concerning is the idea that statistical forecasts based on historical behavior are an appropriate method for things which do not change very much between the taking of historical data and the forecasted time period. E.g. We can predict the most likely temperature range on a date six months from now because climate has been relatively stable over the past few decades. Similarly, we can make a very good guess about the finishing time for the winning horse at the Kentucky Derby this spring, because the bodies of horses and the design of the racetrack are very similar to previous years. The miles-per-gallon of my car should not deviate a lot from tank to tank if I'm using the same fuel, driving the same commute, and applying the same habits.

However, does the composition of the stock market, the activities represented in the economy, culture, technology, or productivity changes resemble these steady state systems, or do these domains have more chaotic elements than we can account for with SD? If the stock market's future is a combination of many chaotic systems, it might be inappropriate to assume even our best theoretical models can predict it.

I suppose I risk getting into solipsism when I raise concerns about chaotic systems, systemic change, or mean-reversions making our estimates of future returns useless, or making our measurements from the past be measurements of a different thing than exists now. However, I do appreciate the argument from a quantitative approach. It's just that we should take any such estimate with a big grain of salt rather than considering them to be precise. It is just one forecast, based on certain assumptions that may or may not be true. I'd give it the same credit as simple CAPE-based strategies, or the even simpler "how much can you afford to lose" approach.
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So again, we're back to "if I knew these inputs, I'd already know how to invest." The presence of precise estimates of forward equity returns, even if produced with mathematical inputs, should not imply that we have accurate estimates. Maybe my critique of the Merton model boils down to taking a wild-ass-guess like Vanguard's estimate of equity returns and obscuring the uncertainty around that guess, treating it like an accurate measurement of something.
It seems unfair to call it a wild-ass guess. But if that is a fair label, what is the right label for assumption that ultimately one can be nearly assured of enjoying the historical average in the US? And what's the implicit volatility assumption when folks do that?

Many individual investors generalize from a very small sample size, assume time-in-market will ultimately redress any losses, and think returns are nearly guaranteed to revert to the mean... so is man on the street assuming a long-term "practical" volatility of, yikes, zero?
I like to think of economic information and formulas as being highly variable in terms of quality as a decision-making input, and never 100% gospel. For example, the 10/3 yield curve inverted on October 25, 2022. On that day, if you looked backward, you'd note that in 100% of cases since 1955 such a signal was followed by a recession within a year and a half.

Here we are almost 26 months later with no recession, and not only that but breakneck 3.2% estimated GDP growth. It appears an over 67 year old indicator with a 100% reliability might have stopped working, just when we started to trust it! A common explanation is that innovations like inflation targeting, QT/QA, "twist" operations, better data availability, the Fed's political independence, bank support mechanisms, and improved Fed communications may have enabled the government to control inflation without necessarily triggering recessions. The Conference Board's Leading Economic Indicators appear poised to make a similar fall, after decades of reliability.

So maybe the "practical" use for the Merton math is as a single input, not fully trusted, but also not ignored. Probably idiosyncratic factors such as the investor's personality or today's valuation levels matter more to AA selection than the outputs of an equation. Probably chaotic systems and system change are steadily reducing the validity of our assumptions, but it's nonetheless good to tie our recommendations to external data in a number of ways.
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So if we're looking forward, I think the best we could do is guess the long-term historical average volatility. That is, to look backward. But of course that's not going to predict the next volatility event either. It would additionally be expected to fail at predicting multi-year changes in volatility, up or down.

We're left with expected equity returns and SDs being backward looking, and inflation estimates being backward looking. Are we predicting data series in the future or are we actually measuring what would have been the best portfolios in the past? Maybe this question gets to the epistemic issue of using math (deductive process) with historical data series to predict the future (inductive process). The presence of the math can trick us into thinking we're not basing everything on inductive reasoning, and drawing past trendlines into the future.

I'm at danger of repeating myself, or am now repeating myself, but it seems like you're arguing that one can't make better decisions by using estimates of the future... so we're just going to plug a percentage (that approach to me is the wild-ass-guess btw) into the formulas we're all using whether we realize it or not.

Respectfully I disagree. I'd say Merton style thinking and math gives you or me or others here a way to quantitively think about whether the equity premium US stocks is enough to bear the risk.

I'd also say it provides insights that may boost investors returns over a lifetime.

Final point: Again, appreciate your thoughtful analysis and clarity of expression. You make strong, good points. Thank you.
Yep it's been a good chat! I'm not too far off from you actually. The Merton process offers one way to incorporate the volatility of stocks and their expected returns into a decision framework. It is one way to answer the question of how much risk to take.

In practice I would recommend incorporating this decision input alongside other inputs such as age-related rules of thumb, research suggesting bond tents can improve portfolio survival, valuation-based AA strategies, historically best performing portfolios, Sharpe ratio optimization (a very close cousin to Merton's equation), and experience with the investor's actual behavior in declining markets. The outliers among all these predictions should be examined most closely.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2024, 10:41:41 AM by ChpBstrd »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2024, 06:57:36 AM »
Last week, the VIX (S&P 500 volatility index) was around $14/share, and yesterday it doubled.  The VIX is now $20.67.

Do these three levels of VIX suggest different allocations to equities, under the Merton Share algorithm?

ChpBstrd

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2024, 10:43:15 AM »
Last week, the VIX (S&P 500 volatility index) was around $14/share, and yesterday it doubled.  The VIX is now $20.67.

Do these three levels of VIX suggest different allocations to equities, under the Merton Share algorithm?
Arguably no, because VIX measures only 30 days out. But it's still a valid question: volatility across what timeframe?

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2024, 11:45:01 AM »
Yep it's been a good chat! I'm not too far off from you actually. The Merton process offers one way to incorporate the volatility of stocks and their expected returns into a decision framework. It is one way to answer the question of how much risk to take.

In practice I would recommend incorporating this decision input alongside other inputs such as age-related rules of thumb, research suggesting bond tents can improve portfolio survival, valuation-based AA strategies, historically best performing portfolios, Sharpe ratio optimization (a very close cousin to Merton's equation), and experience with the investor's actual behavior in declining markets. The outliers among all these predictions should be examined most closely.

Strongly agree with many of the points you make in the full post the above paragraphs are copied from

Also not sure that I actually disagree with anything you've said in that post. FWIW...

Definitely a useful chat.

SeattleCPA

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2024, 11:51:30 AM »
Last week, the VIX (S&P 500 volatility index) was around $14/share, and yesterday it doubled.  The VIX is now $20.67.

Do these three levels of VIX suggest different allocations to equities, under the Merton Share algorithm?

In August, I think the VIX went to 40 maybe more.

I don't know if that should trigger a Merton share adjustment. But I do personally know if one is feverishly thinking about Merton shares and watching the VIX and worrying about CAPE 10? You'll think you should adjust.

Full disclosure: For my traditional asset class investments, I'm at 65% stocks currently and a little bit light on US stocks. (This info is slightly misleading though because it looks considerably less pessimistic once I throw in the alternative asset class stuff.)


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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2025, 10:20:13 AM »
Hey SeattleCPA, I've enjoyed your contributions to the forum. When I came across these, I thought of this thread. You've probably already seen 'em, but I thought I'd post just in case....

Article by Bernstein against Merton Share type "stuff":

https://www.advisorperspectives.com/articles/2025/02/10/merton-share-why-dont-use-retirement-calculators

...and the resulting Bogleheads thread...

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=449890

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2025, 04:01:37 AM »
This is new stuff to me so yes thanks SeattleCPA for the discussion.

Merton's stuff is quite heavily referenced by Victor Haghani his receent book "The Missing Billionaires" and who you can you can find several podcast/lectures for recently, so worth checking out.

The proposal by Haghani's in his book is that - given how many rich industrialists etc we had from the Industrial revolution and given what a century of compounding can do for wealth building - we should have far more billionaire dynasties that we actually do have... so what has happened to them?  He argues that they've basically, at one time or another, held too much risk and been punished for it.

Meton proposes that the correct way to think about expected excess return is that it should rise in proption to additional risk squared in order for your to be properly compensated.

So TLDR, we are back to efficient portfolios and too many people taking on too much risk for not much additional upside... yes, it's work very well for the last 15 years, but bear in mind it has also proven ruinous to many over the last 100+ years.

Also, it heavily overlaps with the themes discussed on recent podcast with Howard Marks and Morgan Housel on how to think about debt and risk (really encourage people to listen):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea3shooJW0o

« Last Edit: February 20, 2025, 04:08:16 AM by vand »

SeattleCPA

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2025, 05:22:24 AM »
Hey SeattleCPA, I've enjoyed your contributions to the forum. When I came across these, I thought of this thread. You've probably already seen 'em, but I thought I'd post just in case....

Article by Bernstein against Merton Share type "stuff":

https://www.advisorperspectives.com/articles/2025/02/10/merton-share-why-dont-use-retirement-calculators

...and the resulting Bogleheads thread...

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=449890

Bill Bernstein is a smart guy. But I think his arguments there are flawed.

The way I'd look at this: Does the Merton framework provide a better way to think about portfolio risk and to think how you and I allocate assets to equities and risk-free assets like TIPS. (A better way, for example, than ignoring risk which is what many people do. Or a better way than ignoring risk when things are good and then overreacting when things are bad which is probably what even more people do.)

I think Merton framework does do this. Imperfectly, sure.

In my first post in this thread, I referenced the JavaScript calculators I created and which were then in my signature. I changed my sig so let me provide those again here:

https://evergreensmallbusiness.com/merton-share-estimator/ estimates a Merton share

https://evergreensmallbusiness.com/super-safe-withdrawal-rate/ estimates the certainty-equivalent rate.

Note: I used ChatGPT to write the JavaScript and the Python that those to blog posts discuss.

P.S. In comparison, I think that in the thread above @ChpBstrd and I have a really good, useful objective discussion of the pros and cons of trying to use something like Merton framework.

SeattleCPA

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2025, 05:34:19 AM »
This is new stuff to me so yes thanks SeattleCPA for the discussion.

Merton's stuff is quite heavily referenced by Victor Haghani his receent book "The Missing Billionaires" and who you can you can find several podcast/lectures for recently, so worth checking out.

The proposal by Haghani's in his book is that - given how many rich industrialists etc we had from the Industrial revolution and given what a century of compounding can do for wealth building - we should have far more billionaire dynasties that we actually do have... so what has happened to them?  He argues that they've basically, at one time or another, held too much risk and been punished for it.

Meton proposes that the correct way to think about expected excess return is that it should rise in proption to additional risk squared in order for your to be properly compensated.

So TLDR, we are back to efficient portfolios and too many people taking on too much risk for not much additional upside... yes, it's work very well for the last 15 years, but bear in mind it has also proven ruinous to many over the last 100+ years.

Also, it heavily overlaps with the themes discussed on recent podcast with Howard Marks and Morgan Housel on how to think about debt and risk (really encourage people to listen):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea3shooJW0o

Thanks for feedback @vand!

FWIW, I find it really challenging to wrap my head around the math in the Merton framework. Had to read Hagani's book twice to feel like I understood. (And then after that, had to do a bunch more reading and learning. Which is ironic because I know we covered this stuff in my MBA in finance program in the early 80s.)

But I really like the perspective the Merton framework gives. And I think it provides people with actionable insights.

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Re: Using Robert Merton's Math to Calculate % in Stocks and a super safe SWR
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2025, 11:08:42 AM »

BTW, Vanguard's most recent forecast suggests a 3.8% nominal return for US stocks, 3.9% nominal return for TIPS, and 17% volatility. I like to work in real returns, so if we adjust those numbers for their expected 2.4% inflation, we're talking a 1.4% expected real return for US stocks and a 1.5% expected real return for risk-free assets.

Those are pretty pessimistic: Using the CAPE 10 approach--CAPE is nearly 40--we're looking a real return of around 2.5% for US equities.

It's hard to take such CAPE forecasts seriously when they've so consistently been wrong.

What model is that? It doesn’t look like what Seattle CPA was saying. Using his model 1/CAPE then negative returns are never expected. My cape model would be 1/CAPE10 + .6% real,  so even at .com peak I would “expect” ~3% annualized positive real 10 year returns. I’d also add +/- 5% though.


I am not sure how the chart is calculated so I take it with a grain of salt.  But assuming it is correct, then there appears be a directional relationship as wells as about a 5% differential on average throughout the chart with contraction/expansion at different points.  It is interesting that it was wider in 1999 (dot com era, rapid multiple expansion) and then trends down and the margin contracts.  More recently it has widened as multiples have expanded significantly from 2015 onward (even in the lows of 2022 the PE was 20x).

The gap between the two has gotten ever wider since 2018 and the end of the chart is the widest, and I suspect if you brought it forward to today it would be even wider. All of this intuitively makes sense given just about every metric out there is showing the market is highly valued. Unfortunately the chart isn't long enough or detailed enough to draw conclusions.

As for the negative return presumption, it could be derived from Shiller PE of 44 in 1999 (or 2.27% inverse) and then subtract out the then inflation rate which was 2.74%.....so -0.47%....over 10 years that equates to a negative return of 4.6% so kind of inline with the chart.   Applying the same logic then the next 10 years will experience a negative 4.1% return.   

I say it all the time but regression to the mean is real and things can't grow to the moon.