Author Topic: TPP and its effects  (Read 2478 times)

astvilla

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TPP and its effects
« on: June 24, 2015, 03:48:19 PM »
What is everyone's thoughts on the TPP? I don't know much about it except that everyone says it's a bad deal for most of us.  Jobs lost, NAFTA on steroids and so on.  I'm leaning towards this is not good for us but I wanted to hear other viewpoints that might support TPP passage.  Some say we need this to counter China or else we will get left behind, which makes some sense to me.  But how would the TPP affect us, young people especially?

marty998

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Re: TPP and its effects
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2015, 04:06:34 PM »
Bad deal for you? Your companies now have the ability to sue our government.

The ISDS (Investor State Dispute Settlement) provisions allow companies to sue for theoretical lost profits if countries dare to enact laws for the benefit of citizens (say in regards to health or the environment) which are detrimental to the interests of corporations.

Case in point is the action taken by Philip Morris against the Australian Government for enacting plain packaging cigarette laws.

It's not the US getting screwed, it's the US screwing over everyone else.

Think about who are the loudest voices pushing for it (big business). If it was a good deal for the ordinary citizen then why don't so see ordinary people out in the streets demonstrating in support of it?

MissPeach

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Re: TPP and its effects
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2015, 04:08:03 PM »
I agree this is basically a bill for the corporations.

My biggest issue with the bill is that it will essentially push the worst standards of the bunch onto other countries. For example most of Europe bans or restricts GMOs. This will basically make a lot of those laws useless because the US and Canada have some of the most lax laws in that area and would be allowed to trade GMOs into Europe. This would apply to other things too where European laws or other country's laws are worse than US.

As for the competing with China argument - read into the clothing manufacturing industry. China's prices have gone up and now a lot of things have shifted to even cheaper countries like Bangladesh. Many companies that went to China came back to the US because the pricing and the backlash isn't worth it for a lot of companies. Karen Kane (clothing company) was one of these companies that was pretty vocal about it. This was an interesting book on the topic (I found it at my local library):
http://www.amazon.com/Overdressed-Shockingly-High-Cheap-Fashion/dp/1591846544

Jack

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Re: TPP and its effects
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2015, 04:20:43 PM »
As far as we know (which isn't as much as we should know), the TPP is disastrous in pretty much every way possible. In addition to the usual anti-worker bullshit, it also:


It's basically a corporate-fascist wish-list of everything the Koch Brothers and other 1%-ers want and which Americans have repeatedly rejected when they tried to push them through Congress in the normal way, all rolled up into a nice, neat, secretly-negotiated, anti-democratic package.

astvilla

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Re: TPP and its effects
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2015, 10:31:06 AM »
So this is similar to what I've been hearing a lot and I agree it doesn't sound good for us average Joes.  Why would you try to fast-track legislation and keep it secret and not let the rest of us see it?  Kind of amazing how quick Congress gets things done when there's a lot of money behind it.  20 dead kids and 6 adults can't persuade Congress to take action on assault rifles and background checks but big business and trade deals go through so fast.

So the alternative to TPP is to reject it completely.  What would be the negative effects of rejecting the TPP? Would we lose security and allies to China or is that just a fear tactic by mainstream media to scare us?  What happens in the future if we reject TPP?

adamwoods137

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Re: TPP and its effects
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2015, 01:41:03 PM »
So this is similar to what I've been hearing a lot and I agree it doesn't sound good for us average Joes.  Why would you try to fast-track legislation and keep it secret and not let the rest of us see it?  Kind of amazing how quick Congress gets things done when there's a lot of money behind it.  20 dead kids and 6 adults can't persuade Congress to take action on assault rifles and background checks but big business and trade deals go through so fast.

So the alternative to TPP is to reject it completely.  What would be the negative effects of rejecting the TPP? Would we lose security and allies to China or is that just a fear tactic by mainstream media to scare us?  What happens in the future if we reject TPP?

The reason the executive branch wants an up or down vote is so that it is easier to negotiate an agreement.  If Australia, for example, had to not only negotiate with America but also with some random senator in Kansas who insists putting his own personal amendments in the negotiations would be nearly impossible.  The problem here is basically the same as the problem of pork. You'd have 435 politicians trying to carve a chunk out of the agreement for their constituency.  Up or down is an absolute requirement for the negotiation to function.  Same with the secrecy.  You can't constructively negotiate a trade agreement while both sides are pandering to their base rather than trying to work out a reasonable compromise. (The recent debacle in greece comes to mind). 

If, once the TPP is revealed, you don't like it, instruct your congressman not to vote for it.  **Shrug**

It seems as though most reasonable people view this as an unnecessary handout to industry in terms of patents etc.  Paul Krugman makes this argument in a recent talk:  http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/03/11/tpp-at-the-nabe/

Liberalization of trade in general is a very good thing.  People opposed to this in principle are simply wrong.  This unfortunately is the left's version of global warming deniers.  Another krugman piece on the subject: http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/ricardo.htm

I'd be willing to make a wager though, if this passes or doesn't pass the US will probably be better off in the year 2025 than this year as measured by real median standard of living (ppp).  There is a great deal of nonsense on either side. I particularly enjoy the fearful cries that corporations will be able to sue governments.  Since this is an investment forum I'd argue that if you think TPP will definitely pass buy Qualcomm, and Pharma, if it is going to definitely fail sell the same.