Author Topic: The mother of all dead cat bounces?  (Read 26583 times)

ATtiny85

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2025, 03:55:58 PM »
I think the market’s divorced from reality, and always has been. Consider that even after terrible events that impacted people for many years, the market recovered relatively quickly. Perhaps it’s only now that retail investors are part of the market that we struggle with the cognitive dissonance that was always there.

Not saying this isn’t a dead cat bounce either. No one knows.

so true!

But 2000 did not recover quickly. nor did 1929.  1966 through 1980 was a teeter totter.

Anyone eles noticing how hard it is to just find a generic chart of the stock market that goes back farther than like 1990? Seems they used to pop up with a quick google, but now  I get result after result that just doesn't meet the query. strange.

Personally I don’t care what “number” the stock market is at… All I care about is my returns/reinvestment, and maintenance of my principal (at least, the principal that I’m not already drawing down in FIRE). From this perspective, after a crash, recovery is often faster than has been historically described. Here’s an example:

“ The stock market crash of 1929 had a profound impact on the global economy, contributing to the Great Depression. The recovery of the stock market was a lengthy process, taking over 25 years to regain its pre-crash levels in nominal terms. However, when accounting for deflation, the recovery was more rapid, with investors reaching break-even within four-and-a-half years. ”

Remember, too, if you are drawing down your invested savings at 4% a year, you are not panic selling.

That's a very rose-tinted view of the stock market during that era - the sort of permabull mentality that only someone who has never lived through such an experience would write. 

Although the market did rally back in a couple of cyclical bull markets the total return peaks of 1936 and again in 1945 weren't sustained and the new highs marked the end of the cyclical bull.

It wasn't until about 1954-1955 that the new high in stock returns was sustained and to go on to make meaningful gains above the 1929 peak.   

25 years is a long time to be invested and underwater for 99% of it.

(of course this is also assuming you could invest in the S&P index for 0% fees during the era, which isn't even possible today..).


I made purchases three times a month in equities for 31 years. Peaks and troughs mean nothing to this buy and buy and buy investor.

Radagast

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #51 on: May 05, 2025, 09:20:12 AM »
I think it is not really comparable to think about stock market returns from 70+ years ago vs today.  Pre 1971 the currency inflation of the USD was tied to the amount of gold reserves held by federal reserve, as opposed to nowadays where we've seen almost 50% of all USD in existence printed in the last 5 years.  So yes in USD nominal terms, it is much easier now for stock markets to kick on and make new highs and higher highs because they are being measured in rapidly devaluing fiat.
I bet if you looked pre-71 you'd find plenty of high inflation and periods where 50% of all USD in existence had been printed in the past 5 years. Not to mention fiat currency. In fact I can tell from the fact you said that that you simply haven't looked.

dividendman

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #52 on: May 05, 2025, 09:41:43 AM »
I think it is not really comparable to think about stock market returns from 70+ years ago vs today.  Pre 1971 the currency inflation of the USD was tied to the amount of gold reserves held by federal reserve, as opposed to nowadays where we've seen almost 50% of all USD in existence printed in the last 5 years.  So yes in USD nominal terms, it is much easier now for stock markets to kick on and make new highs and higher highs because they are being measured in rapidly devaluing fiat.
I bet if you looked pre-71 you'd find plenty of high inflation and periods where 50% of all USD in existence had been printed in the past 5 years. Not to mention fiat currency. In fact I can tell from the fact you said that that you simply haven't looked.

And regardless of the "printing" of the money, what matters is inflation, and not just the CPI, but your personal inflation. Markets go up 50%, CPI inflation is 70% but your spending increased 20%... guess what, you win.

41_swish

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2025, 10:01:21 AM »
Part of me says this is a crazy dead cat bounce, because if Trump resumes the tariffs without making significant trade deals, then we will see another step decline. So really, we are jump in limbo until July 7th, when the 90 pause ends.

RWD

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2025, 11:12:34 AM »
I feel obligated to post my usual list. There are plenty of things I'm worried about right now in this county but the stock market is pretty low on the list.

Spoiler: show

1/2013  [SP500 = 1462]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/is-now-a-bad-time-to-invest-in-stock-index-funds/
5/2013  [1583]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/starting-today!/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/$80k-sitting-in-cash-bc-scared-of-high-flying-stock-mkt-punch-me/
10/2013  [1695]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/stock-market-expensive-now-alternatives/
5/2014  [1884]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/stock-market-is-high-am-i-too-late/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/is-the-stock-market-too-expensive-to-get-back-in/
7/2014  [1973]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/current-market-has-me-scared-to-invest/
9/2014  [2002]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/is-it-a-good-time-to-invest-new-money/
10/2014  [1946]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/stock-market-would-you-buy-now-or-wait/
1/2015  [2058]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/stock-market-should-i-be-concerned/
3/2015  [2117]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/talk-me-out-of-timing-the-australian-market/
12/2015  [2103]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/where-to-put-a-large-windfall-with-stock-market-near-all-time-highs/
1/2016  [2013]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/about-to-sell-everything-talk-me-off-the-ledge-(or-push-me-off)-please!/
4/2016 [2073]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/here-it-comes-red-dow/
2/2017  [2280]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/does-anyone-think-we-are-in-a-bubble/
4/2017  [2359]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/top-is-in/
6/2017  [2430]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/continue-the-blog-conversation/recession-coming/
8/2017  [2476]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/getting-scared-of-stock-market/
1/2018  [2696]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/nervous-about-the-market/
3/2018  [2678]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/when-would-you-get-back-in/
5/2018  [2655]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investing-in-a-bull-market/
6/2018  [2735]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/moving-to-cash-market-timing-can%27t-believe-it/
10/2018  [2925]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/sell-index-funds-now-for-down-payment-during-recession/
2/2019  [2707]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/welp-i'm-going-to-take-a-stab-at-timing-the-market/
4/2019  [2867]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/buy-vtsax-now-while-its-this-high-or-wait-till-a-drop/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/how-concerned-are-you-about-the-everything-bubble/
5/2019  [2924]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/scared-of-investing-in-the-stock-market-now/
6/2019  [2890]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/uk-tax-discussion/global-index-tracker-is-so-high!-do-i-just-keep-putting-my-money-into-it-anyway/
7/2019 [3026]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/would-you-106836/
8/2019 [2889]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/vtsax-and-a-looming-recession/
9/2019 [2978]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/recession-in-2-ish-years-scale-and-nature/
10/2019 [2986]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/advice-needed-108726/
11/2019 [3110]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/questions-from-37yr-old-that-very-recently-became-serious-about-fi/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/where-to-invest-my-cash-now/
12/2019 [3169]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/help!-i-dont-know-where-to-start/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/the-old-excuses-for-down-swings-and-a-reality-yet-we-are-at-all-time-highs!/
1/2020 [3296]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/what-to-do-with-a-large-sum-of-money-bad-time-to-buy-index-funds/
2/2020 [3345]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/real-estate-and-landlording/in-a-pickle/
6/2020 [3125]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/august-is-when-it-all-implodes/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/should-i-move-my-bond-etf-to-money-market-fund-or-cd/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/anyone-else-struggling-to-not-sell/
8/2020 [3360]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/invest-lump-sum-or-wait/
11/2020 [3585]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/little-reminder-just-how-gross-the-valuation-of-equities-is/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/anyone-else-terrified-of-stock-market-right-now/
12/2020 [3703]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/i-pulled-my-index-funds-because-fear-of-market-crash/
2/2021 [3935]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/beginner-question-is-it-a-good-time-to-invest-in-stock-etf-now/
3/2021 [3939]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/sky-high-sp-500-pe-ratio/
4/2021 [4129]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/bad-time-to-enter-large-position-into-market/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/advice-121943/
6/2021 [4281]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what-to-do-with-a-windfall-122870/
8/2021 [4437]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/the-great-marital-dispute-who-is-'right'-about-how-to-invest!/
9/2021 [4535]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/thoughtshelp-took-crypto-profits-cash-heavy/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/what-to-do-with-large-bonus-123900/
11/2021 [4595]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what-to-do-with-an-inheritance-(international)/
12/2021 [4701]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/is-a-7-return-unlikely-without-a-complex-approach/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/upcoming-recession/
3/2022 [4201]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-to-do-with-$100k-126670/
5/2022 [3991]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/where-to-stuff-this-extra-income/
6/2022 [4177]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/safer-investment-ideas-for-8-years/
11/2022 [3945]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/live-off-the-cash-or-invest-it-already-fire'd/
1/2023 [4020]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/does-easy-access-to-the-market-drive-up-prices/
4/2023 [4151]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/high-yield-savings-cds-or-money-market-fund/
3/2024 [5242]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/who's-hit-fi-but-not-retired-yet/
10/2024 [5808]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/case-studies/rebalancing-for-fire-is-now-the-right-time-to-invest/
11/2024 [5894]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/is-the-market-overpriced/
4/2025 [5569]
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/the-mother-of-all-dead-cat-bounces/


Miscellaneous
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/%27but-right-now-the-market-is-at-an-all-time-high-%27/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/the-great-market-crash-of-2016!/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/how-to-deal-with-losing-$117k-in-stock-market/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/so-we're-basically-on-track-for-a-bear-market-by-tomorrow/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/anyone-else-feeling-depressed-about-global-equities-10-year-outlook/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/stocks-will-only-return-4-annually-for-next-decade-john-bogle/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/new-saver-worried-about-future-stockmarket/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/i-tried-to-time-the-market-roast-me-and-tell-me-what-to-do-now/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/help-i-screwed-up/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/lost-all-my-money-in-the-stock-market-made-it-all-back-and-some-need-advice/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/lessons-from-riding-the-hot-stock-train/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/is-this-bigger-than-a-'don't-try-and-time-the-market'-event/

41_swish

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #55 on: May 05, 2025, 11:26:43 AM »
@RWD , are you saying to basically just stay the course and quit checking this stuff every 30 minutes?

RWD

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2025, 12:53:33 PM »
@RWD , are you saying to basically just stay the course and quit checking this stuff every 30 minutes?
I don't have a clue what the market will do in the short term but I do know that if I am well diversified and hang on for a few decades everything (investment-wise) will be fine. Watching the moment to moment stock market swings is certainly not great for mental health.

ChpBstrd

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #57 on: May 06, 2025, 05:59:09 AM »
Watching the moment to moment stock market swings is certainly not great for mental health.
That’s my hobby you’re talking about there, buddy. Next you’re going to tell me spending 6 hours a day applying instagram filters to pictures of my face while watching slasher films and letting YouTube run is psychologically unhealthy.

AuspiciousEight

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #58 on: May 06, 2025, 06:06:23 AM »
Watching the moment to moment stock market swings is certainly not great for mental health.
That’s my hobby you’re talking about there, buddy. Next you’re going to tell me spending 6 hours a day applying instagram filters to pictures of my face while watching slasher films and letting YouTube run is psychologically unhealthy.

This is all perfectly healthy except the part where you're watching films and letting youtube run at the same time....

That....is madness, lol.

reeshau

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2025, 06:36:30 AM »
Watching the moment to moment stock market swings is certainly not great for mental health.
That’s my hobby you’re talking about there, buddy. Next you’re going to tell me spending 6 hours a day applying instagram filters to pictures of my face while watching slasher films and letting YouTube run is psychologically unhealthy.

This is all perfectly healthy except the part where you're watching films and letting youtube run at the same time....

That....is madness, lol.

Better than being allowed to run loose in the streets!

41_swish

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #60 on: May 06, 2025, 10:05:20 AM »
I have only been on my investing journey for 2.5 years. I started my 401(k) and Roth IRA in June of 2022. I started buying into a down year but felt nothing do to starting with peanuts. A -5% swing on $800 felt like nothing to me, but now the swings do feel like something. This recent bit of volatility has taught me that looking every 10 minutes is bad for you, because it is so far outside of your control. In an ideal world, I would check it once a month to track my progress, but I don't have that kind of self-control.

GuitarStv

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #61 on: May 06, 2025, 10:07:19 AM »
I have only been on my investing journey for 2.5 years. I started my 401(k) and Roth IRA in June of 2022. I started buying into a down year but felt nothing do to starting with peanuts. A -5% swing on $800 felt like nothing to me, but now the swings do feel like something. This recent bit of volatility has taught me that looking every 10 minutes is bad for you, because it is so far outside of your control. In an ideal world, I would check it once a month to track my progress, but I don't have that kind of self-control.

Just check what the drops are every time Trump does something stupid, and then check when he backpedals away from the disaster he created.  Oh wait, that means every day.  :P

41_swish

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #62 on: May 06, 2025, 10:09:58 AM »
feels like it is every day...

Fru-Gal

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #63 on: May 06, 2025, 10:19:30 AM »
I have only been on my investing journey for 2.5 years. I started my 401(k) and Roth IRA in June of 2022. I started buying into a down year but felt nothing do to starting with peanuts. A -5% swing on $800 felt like nothing to me, but now the swings do feel like something. This recent bit of volatility has taught me that looking every 10 minutes is bad for you, because it is so far outside of your control. In an ideal world, I would check it once a month to track my progress, but I don't have that kind of self-control.

Eventually you learn to be more sanguine about it. Of course if it keeps you up at night, that means you are invested past your risk tolerance. Though even that is OK. The only thing you can’t do is panic sell. If you are at that point, rebalance so you don’t feel the need to do that. Hence my advice to set it and forget it and make sure to live your life. In very short order (5-7 years) you will start having options due to your stache that most people simply don’t have because they don’t save and invest.

Also know that a good portion of us are 100% low-fee stock index funds and FIREd.

Final point, I am definitely not a permabull as implied upthread but I have been tested multiple times so I KNOW I have a high risk tolerance. As you are now experiencing, when the market goes down, it feels scary. Everyone is scared/reacting, hence market dropping. The news starts printing scary headlines every 30 seconds. The headlines are always so funny to me, as if there’s one simple reason the market goes up or down. They don’t know. NOBODY KNOWS. We could have an actual great president and government in power, and the stock market could be flat or dropping. The fact that we have a pumper-dumper meme-coin-seller creates a lot of volatility and expectation that the president controls the stock market.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2025, 10:21:55 AM by Fru-Gal »

swashbucklinstache

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #64 on: May 06, 2025, 10:21:48 AM »
I have only been on my investing journey for 2.5 years. I started my 401(k) and Roth IRA in June of 2022. I started buying into a down year but felt nothing do to starting with peanuts. A -5% swing on $800 felt like nothing to me, but now the swings do feel like something. This recent bit of volatility has taught me that looking every 10 minutes is bad for you, because it is so far outside of your control. In an ideal world, I would check it once a month to track my progress, but I don't have that kind of self-control.

Just check what the drops are every time Trump does something stupid, and then check when he backpedals away from the disaster he created.  Oh wait, that means every day.  :P
I like checking each day as exposure therapy. The downside is you grow up to realize meaningful market swings are only actually scary because of foreboding of potential real world scaries. Nobody actually cares if the markets are down fifteen percent for eighteen months if there's no impact on long term average returns.

Telecaster

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #65 on: May 06, 2025, 02:06:13 PM »
Let me break out my broken record again:  Market fluctuations aren't worth worrying about.   They are barely worth thinking about.   A high market valuation (which we are experiencing right now) implies one thing:  A lower rate of future returns.    A low market valuation implies the opposite.   

We talk about the 7% average market returns a lot.   "Average" means it will be below average part of the time.   We've had above average returns for a while.  Stands to reason we'll have below average returns for a while.   That period is probably starting about now.   Nothing you can do about it, so don't worry about it.   And you can sleep like a baby at night because you already knew this was coming and planned for it.  You did plan for it, right?   

And yes, Trump is corrupt fool who isn't helping things.  And shame on all cowardly Republicans in Congress who are enabling him.  They are hurting people's jobs and lives because they lack the conviction to speak up.   These people are truly the dregs of humanity.   They are an embarrassment to this great country. 

rosarugosa

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2025, 05:36:52 AM »
You don't HAVE to just invest in US stocks, you know??

There's a huge universe of other markets that you can invest it.  VEU covering the rest of the world is solidly HIGHER than it was on Apr 1st... missing that is what you get for waiting and for tunnel-visioning on such a narrow investment thesis.

I did this 16 years ago with a globally diversified portfolio, when everyone here was saying how US companies are globally diversified. How’d that turn out for y’all?

They're probably still way up compared to a 70/30 US/international allocation. :) It definitely is nice to see gains in my VXUS/VEA though.

Having a chaos monkey in charge is one of those unknown unknowns.


I've got to say that "chaos monkey" is my new favorite label for the fool running the USA (into the ground).

41_swish

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #67 on: May 07, 2025, 09:44:00 AM »
I also think about if a dead cat bounce and market fluctuations really freak you out this bad, you should really consider recalibrating your risk tolerance. These last couple months made me realize that I don't quite have the risk tolerance that I thought I did. I will use that to recalibrate and act accordingly. If I have any big take away from all of this it is international is nothing to scoff at and don't keep all of your eggs in one basket.

Much Fishing to Do

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2025, 09:00:41 AM »
I also think about if a dead cat bounce and market fluctuations really freak you out this bad, you should really consider recalibrating your risk tolerance. These last couple months made me realize that I don't quite have the risk tolerance that I thought I did. I will use that to recalibrate and act accordingly. If I have any big take away from all of this it is international is nothing to scoff at and don't keep all of your eggs in one basket.

Yes, markets are about back to new highs, so it is approaching a good time to look back on the past month and consider allocating to something less risky if that was too wild a ride. Way too many people do that at the lows (like in 2009, which made recovery nearly impossible for a lot of people). 

To me personally this is nothing compared to Covid, that's the only "this time is different" feeling I've had in a long time, but somehow kept from selling and, sure enough within a few months the market was back.

It was nice to have my international help for once, I'd probably have another $1M in the bank if I had gone VTI instead of VT when I set up my main allocations 15 years ago.

ChpBstrd

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2025, 09:29:31 AM »
The dead cat appears to be made of rubber.

Yes, markets are about back to new highs, so it is approaching a good time to look back on the past month and consider allocating to something less risky if that was too wild a ride. Way too many people do that at the lows (like in 2009, which made recovery nearly impossible for a lot of people). 

To me personally this is nothing compared to Covid, that's the only "this time is different" feeling I've had in a long time, but somehow kept from selling and, sure enough within a few months the market was back.
I'm astounded that the Chinese were able to break the Trump administration in one weekend. Did they threaten to dump treasuries (or simply point out that they could not continue to afford buying them if their source of dollars stopped)? Or did they just pay a bribe?

Luckily, I went into it with a bullish allocation. Perhaps the stock market is itself a "put" on the foolish behavior of politicians. I.e. the behavior can only go on for as long as stocks keep rising, because popular support is largely tied to the stock market. Trump is reversing his signature policy initiative and main campaign issue, and moving onto the conservative media's next contrived emergency panic situation - immigration.

VanillaGorilla

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2025, 09:30:16 AM »
I also think about if a dead cat bounce and market fluctuations really freak you out this bad, you should really consider recalibrating your risk tolerance. These last couple months made me realize that I don't quite have the risk tolerance that I thought I did. I will use that to recalibrate and act accordingly. If I have any big take away from all of this it is international is nothing to scoff at and don't keep all of your eggs in one basket.

Yes, markets are about back to new highs, so it is approaching a good time to look back on the past month and consider allocating to something less risky if that was too wild a ride. Way too many people do that at the lows (like in 2009, which made recovery nearly impossible for a lot of people). 

To me personally this is nothing compared to Covid, that's the only "this time is different" feeling I've had in a long time, but somehow kept from selling and, sure enough within a few months the market was back.
I tend to mildly disagree, I think the last few months have been another moderately helpful exercise in developing the emotional fortitude to be a successful investor. If perturbations freak you out, learn to not freak out. Different allocations will not strengthen your ability to buy and hold.

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2025, 02:44:37 PM »
Perhaps the stock market is itself a "put" on the foolish behavior of politicians. I.e. the behavior can only go on for as long as stocks keep rising, because popular support is largely tied to the stock market.

One might forgive the current administration for starting to think that they can say or do whatever, and as soon as they don't like the results they can restore the status quo at will.

The problem is that there's a limit before they overextend and get caught by an opportunistic adversary, or events simply conspire against them.

If they're determined to find the hard limit, I expect they will succeed.

wantstoinvest

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2025, 03:44:48 PM »
I moved 40% of my money into bonds at the bottom like a dunce and now Im regretting it. Luckily I kept the majority in stocks but I'll remember this lesson for the rest of my life. I got caught up in the news and the doom when I should have known no one had any extra information they were operting on.

I'm going to buy back in and keep it there this time, while also going on a diet of news around markets. The news is not reflective of any special information and I was better off living my day to day and sticking to the plan.

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2025, 04:31:14 PM »
I'm astounded that the Chinese were able to break the Trump administration in one weekend. Did they threaten to dump treasuries (or simply point out that they could not continue to afford buying them if their source of dollars stopped)? Or did they just pay a bribe?


I think it is simpler than that.   Trump is an incredibly weak negotiator.   He started off with a poor hand and played it poorly.   Trump has at most less than two years to get the economy humming better than it was (which will be tough because things were going pretty well when he took office) or the Republicans will lose seats--probably a lot of them, in the midterms.   We've all seen the headlines.  There are lot of US business that depend on imports, and they were about to get hit in the chin if nothing was done.

The Chinese on the other culturally are used to playing the long game.  The CCP will be still be in charge in two years or four years regardless.   Trump and his team (apparently) were hoping to manufacture a quick crisis and get some big concessions.   But China didn't blink.   They knew Trump was too weak to go through with it and didn't make a move.   Now we're back to essentially pre-Liberation Day and no actual deal has been signed.   




reeshau

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2025, 05:31:10 PM »
I moved 40% of my money into bonds at the bottom like a dunce and now Im regretting it. Luckily I kept the majority in stocks but I'll remember this lesson for the rest of my life. I got caught up in the news and the doom when I should have known no one had any extra information they were operting on.

I'm going to buy back in and keep it there this time, while also going on a diet of news around markets. The news is not reflective of any special information and I was better off living my day to day and sticking to the plan.

You have paid tuition to the school of hard knocks.  Good for you, if you can make it stick.

If ignoring the news is difficult, think of this: If you are investing for your retirement, you are investing for the next 20, 40, 60 years.  If some news shakes you, ask yourself: "Will I care about this in 40 years?"  The answer, largely, is "No."

The other go-to is to Google "wall of worry" and see what we have been through in the past; all reasons (at the time) to give up or get out.

41_swish

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2025, 05:36:14 PM »
If everything goes sideways this will be the craziest dead cat bounce, I have ever seen

wantstoinvest

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2025, 05:39:36 PM »
I moved 40% of my money into bonds at the bottom like a dunce and now Im regretting it. Luckily I kept the majority in stocks but I'll remember this lesson for the rest of my life. I got caught up in the news and the doom when I should have known no one had any extra information they were operting on.

I'm going to buy back in and keep it there this time, while also going on a diet of news around markets. The news is not reflective of any special information and I was better off living my day to day and sticking to the plan.

You have paid tuition to the school of hard knocks.  Good for you, if you can make it stick.

If ignoring the news is difficult, think of this: If you are investing for your retirement, you are investing for the next 20, 40, 60 years.  If some news shakes you, ask yourself: "Will I care about this in 40 years?"  The answer, largely, is "No."

The other go-to is to Google "wall of worry" and see what we have been through in the past; all reasons (at the time) to give up or get out.

Yeah, you are absolutely right. I got spooked and I just let the noise creep in when I should have ignored it because it did not matter in the end. It'll hurt to take the hit, but I'd rather take it now and learn my lesson before I really regret it later.

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2025, 07:53:24 PM »
I'm astounded that the Chinese were able to break the Trump administration in one weekend. Did they threaten to dump treasuries (or simply point out that they could not continue to afford buying them if their source of dollars stopped)? Or did they just pay a bribe?


I think it is simpler than that.   Trump is an incredibly weak negotiator.   He started off with a poor hand and played it poorly.   Trump has at most less than two years to get the economy humming better than it was (which will be tough because things were going pretty well when he took office) or the Republicans will lose seats--probably a lot of them, in the midterms.   We've all seen the headlines.  There are lot of US business that depend on imports, and they were about to get hit in the chin if nothing was done.

The Chinese on the other culturally are used to playing the long game.  The CCP will be still be in charge in two years or four years regardless.   Trump and his team (apparently) were hoping to manufacture a quick crisis and get some big concessions.   But China didn't blink.   They knew Trump was too weak to go through with it and didn't make a move.   Now we're back to essentially pre-Liberation Day and no actual deal has been signed.

I'd argue that America is not back to pre-Liberation Day . . . the nation as a whole has been significantly weakened from that point.  Trade relations with the world are worse than they were, and every other country in the world is working to avoid doing business with the States.

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #78 on: May 12, 2025, 08:43:58 PM »
I'm astounded that the Chinese were able to break the Trump administration in one weekend. Did they threaten to dump treasuries (or simply point out that they could not continue to afford buying them if their source of dollars stopped)? Or did they just pay a bribe?


I think it is simpler than that.   Trump is an incredibly weak negotiator.   He started off with a poor hand and played it poorly.   Trump has at most less than two years to get the economy humming better than it was (which will be tough because things were going pretty well when he took office) or the Republicans will lose seats--probably a lot of them, in the midterms.   We've all seen the headlines.  There are lot of US business that depend on imports, and they were about to get hit in the chin if nothing was done.

The Chinese on the other culturally are used to playing the long game.  The CCP will be still be in charge in two years or four years regardless.   Trump and his team (apparently) were hoping to manufacture a quick crisis and get some big concessions.   But China didn't blink.   They knew Trump was too weak to go through with it and didn't make a move.   Now we're back to essentially pre-Liberation Day and no actual deal has been signed.

I'd argue that America is not back to pre-Liberation Day . . . the nation as a whole has been significantly weakened from that point.  Trade relations with the world are worse than they were, and every other country in the world is working to avoid doing business with the States.

That's why it's different this time!

Trying to nerve myself up to sell stock and Buy More Gold tomorrow!

But I have a doctor appointment tomorrow, and family affairs to tend to, so maybe not.

Daley

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #79 on: May 12, 2025, 09:05:48 PM »
I'm astounded that the Chinese were able to break the Trump administration in one weekend. Did they threaten to dump treasuries (or simply point out that they could not continue to afford buying them if their source of dollars stopped)? Or did they just pay a bribe?


I think it is simpler than that.   Trump is an incredibly weak negotiator.   He started off with a poor hand and played it poorly.   Trump has at most less than two years to get the economy humming better than it was (which will be tough because things were going pretty well when he took office) or the Republicans will lose seats--probably a lot of them, in the midterms.   We've all seen the headlines.  There are lot of US business that depend on imports, and they were about to get hit in the chin if nothing was done.

The Chinese on the other culturally are used to playing the long game.  The CCP will be still be in charge in two years or four years regardless.   Trump and his team (apparently) were hoping to manufacture a quick crisis and get some big concessions.   But China didn't blink.   They knew Trump was too weak to go through with it and didn't make a move.   Now we're back to essentially pre-Liberation Day and no actual deal has been signed.

I'd argue that America is not back to pre-Liberation Day . . . the nation as a whole has been significantly weakened from that point.  Trade relations with the world are worse than they were, and every other country in the world is working to avoid doing business with the States.

Especially since the tariffs never actually went away! They're just back down to 30% (someone probably forgot it was originally supposed to be 34%) plus the 20% levees for "most" stuff - with a pinkie swear of a 90 day hold at that level for imported goods from China from a man who perpetually breaks his word, breaks the law, throws truth to the ground, and has pissed on the social contract of civil society. How the bloody hell is this even remotely "pre-Liberation Day"?

I am appalled at the complete lack of critical reading skills within this very community and the greater financial markets some days... because, seriously, claims like this are playing into and reinforcing the gaslighting of the entire world by this man! Literally nothing has changed except a walk-back of the punitive triple digit tariffs on the American public for Chinese goods, and even that is only a "pause".

NOTHING HAS ACTUALLY CHANGED! IT'S ALL PERFORMATIVE DOG AND PONY SHOWS TO KEEP YOU ON THE STRING DANCING AND HOLDING THE BAG! NOTHING STOPPED THE TRADE WAR! THIS IS A MARKET RALLY FUELED BY COPIUM!

When the bloody hell are you lot here (not you, Steve - I'm talking collective MMM community you, here) going to get it through your thick skulls that the tariffs AREN'T GOING AWAY UNDER TRUMP! The entire purpose of these fucking tariffs are to partially starve out tax collection with the IRS to further starve out the power of the legislative purse, and move it into direct collection by the DHS through punitive consumption taxes on the poor into a purse for spending directly controlled by the Executive. It doesn't matter that it's bad policy when he's basically using it as a means to directly tax and skim off the top of every item sold in this country for his own discretionary fund. That's all that matters!

Anyone who read both Project 2025 and Agenda 47 should be able to understand this. The only schizophrenic stance on tariffs came from Project 2025 where both camps warred over the policy with some reasonably competent financial whoremongers pushing back realizing how stupid it is for trade and business, but Agenda 47? Trump's personal agenda? All tariffs, all the time - no exception, just like he's been saying since the 1980's, baby!

It's likely also why Russia and North Korea have no tariffs - it's not because they're embargoed, it's a bigger picture play for after a point when the dirty business with "divvying up" eastern Ukraine for the Russian Motherland according to Dugin's master plan for "stability" through a racist Russian New World Order and de-Americanized Western Europe are achieved (no, they never wanted all of Ukraine, only the eastern bits), and the Russian embargoes are lifted in the west. The high Chinese and SE Asian tariffs basically kills direct American-Chinese commerce, and Russia and its organized crime syndicates step in and smuggle Chinese goods into the States as "Russian made" products sold to the US for less than buying directly from China, despite the middle man markup. Likely the same will be done with laundering Chinese, South Korean and Japanese products through North Korea after "normalizing" relationships there, too. This would be an economic war move made by Russia to tame China's paper tiger and put it back under their thumb and influence. Again, another Dugin plot point in from 30 years ago.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2025, 09:08:37 PM by Daley »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #80 on: May 12, 2025, 10:19:26 PM »
Literally nothing has changed except a walk-back of the punitive triple digit tariffs on the American public for Chinese goods, and even that is only a "pause".
Shipping from China to the U.S. fell off a cliff under 145% tariffs.  If Trump did nothing for a couple more months, shelves would have gone empty as inventory drained to zero.  By dropping tariffs back to 30%, shipping can resume, and warehouses can keep restocking inventory.

Days ago, Trump refused to cut tariffs before negotiations began, and now he has done so - a key demand from China, who has the upper hand in this dispute.  The U.S. giving ground to China also makes a successful outcome more likely.  I recall China made some move that hinted at a willingness to end production of fentanyl precursors, and if they do that, the U.S. will shave another 20% of tariffs, which would result in 10% tariffs on China.

That is my prediction: that the U.S. and China reach an agreement where tariffs are 10%, which is dramatically different from 145% tariffs.


Anyone who read both Project 2025 and Agenda 47 should be able to understand this.
This is a discussion of tariffs.  Can you quote where either of those documents mention 145% tariffs on China?

ChpBstrd

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2025, 08:18:17 AM »
I'm astounded that the Chinese were able to break the Trump administration in one weekend. Did they threaten to dump treasuries (or simply point out that they could not continue to afford buying them if their source of dollars stopped)? Or did they just pay a bribe?
I think it is simpler than that.   Trump is an incredibly weak negotiator.   He started off with a poor hand and played it poorly.   Trump has at most less than two years to get the economy humming better than it was (which will be tough because things were going pretty well when he took office) or the Republicans will lose seats--probably a lot of them, in the midterms.   We've all seen the headlines.  There are lot of US business that depend on imports, and they were about to get hit in the chin if nothing was done.

The Chinese on the other culturally are used to playing the long game.  The CCP will be still be in charge in two years or four years regardless.   Trump and his team (apparently) were hoping to manufacture a quick crisis and get some big concessions.   But China didn't blink.   They knew Trump was too weak to go through with it and didn't make a move.   Now we're back to essentially pre-Liberation Day and no actual deal has been signed.

41_swish

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2025, 07:31:15 PM »
The "art" of the Deal. This whole Liberation Day fiasco and the following events have shown me that this man will say literally anything. I don't trust anything he says anymore.

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #83 on: May 13, 2025, 08:05:25 PM »
i love how it's trump's fault that markets went down but it's also trump's fault markets went up again.  There's just no pleasing these panic sellers.

Fru-Gal

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #84 on: May 13, 2025, 08:18:46 PM »
As I said upthread:

Quote
We could have an actual great president and government in power, and the stock market could be flat or dropping. The fact that we have a pumper-dumper meme-coin-seller creates a lot of volatility and expectation that the president controls the stock market.

aboatguy

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #85 on: May 13, 2025, 09:16:59 PM »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #86 on: May 13, 2025, 10:49:30 PM »
i love how it's trump's fault that markets went down but it's also trump's fault markets went up again.  There's just no pleasing these panic sellers.
You don't understand that 145% tariffs on China hurt the market, and that removing them helped the market?

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2025, 01:19:56 AM »
i love how it's trump's fault that markets went down but it's also trump's fault markets went up again.  There's just no pleasing these panic sellers.
You don't understand that 145% tariffs on China hurt the market, and that removing them helped the market?

But have you seen Project 2025?

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #88 on: May 14, 2025, 03:53:24 AM »
i love how it's trump's fault that markets went down but it's also trump's fault markets went up again.  There's just no pleasing these panic sellers.
You don't understand that 145% tariffs on China hurt the market, and that removing them helped the market?
But have you seen Project 2025?
You don't understand tariffs, so you refer to something irrelevant?

ChpBstrd

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #89 on: May 14, 2025, 10:23:32 AM »
i love how it's trump's fault that markets went down but it's also trump's fault markets went up again.  There's just no pleasing these panic sellers.
If White House officials (some of whom were previously under investigation for insider trading) are running a pump and dump scam, and that is one reason for the rapid policy reversals, then yes, it is Trump’s fault.

The more charitable but less likely explanation is that he’s crazy and stands for nothing. People have been falling for that act since George W. Bush played dumb before and during his 8 year administration.

Telecaster

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #90 on: May 24, 2025, 07:15:05 PM »
How the bloody hell is this even remotely "pre-Liberation Day"?

Trump imposed lots of tariffs on China prior to "Liberation Day."   He had been escalating them for months, in fact.  On Liberation Day (April 2), he imposed more.   Then earlier this month he walked back the Liberation Day tariffs on China (for the most part) to where they were prior to April 2.   

You can quibble around the edges, sure.  But a reasonable person could conclude that current tariffs on China are essentially (my original qualifier) back to where they were prior to April 2.   


41_swish

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #91 on: May 24, 2025, 07:37:01 PM »
This forum as a whole leans very liberal. I think republicans are too busy financing trucks and boats to be on a FIRE forum.

Go take a look at this chart:
https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-ECONOMY/SENTIMENT-POLITICS/zgpokbddypd/

Americans always seem to feel better about things when their party is in power and doomer when their party is not. Both sides are just as guilty about this.

However, when it comes to the liberation day tariffs and all that, the republicans did do that one to themselves.

kei te pai

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #92 on: May 25, 2025, 12:24:44 AM »
From where you stand in the US, this forum may be considered to ‘ lean left’. However from the point of view of other western democracies I would consider it centreist.

Not too much radical wealth distribution around these parts!

Like many things in life, where you are determines the view.

41_swish

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #93 on: May 25, 2025, 01:27:20 PM »
Maybe my view is skewed from living in a "liberal" state. I have lived in the front range for a few years now, so that is my frame of reference. The views here tend to align with the moderate democrat policies of where I live. In the grand scheme of things, centrist isn't that crazy

aasdfadsf

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #94 on: May 26, 2025, 12:35:55 AM »
I moved 40% of my money into bonds at the bottom like a dunce and now Im regretting it. Luckily I kept the majority in stocks but I'll remember this lesson for the rest of my life. I got caught up in the news and the doom when I should have known no one had any extra information they were operting on.

I'm going to buy back in and keep it there this time, while also going on a diet of news around markets. The news is not reflective of any special information and I was better off living my day to day and sticking to the plan.

Well, the whole problem was that you tried to time the market. Actually, that's not the problem, the problem is that you mistimed it. Haven't we been telling you not to time the market? Except I started this tread telling everyone that maybe now is when you should try to time the market, but only if you realize that this time is different. But that is a stupid idea and you should never, ever do it. Because it never works. Except maybe this time. But if you do it, make sure your timing is not off, because if it is, you've just created another data point for why you should never time the market.

aasdfadsf

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #95 on: May 26, 2025, 12:42:30 AM »
I like to respond to these inquiries as an exercise to sharpen my own thinking and see the big picture. However, I DO NOT agree that "Every indicator is terrible." Maybe the ones on the news, but not if you have a broad range of things you look at. [good stuff snipped]

Just wanted to let you know that I really did appreciate your thinking on this. Whether I agree or disagree or am smart enough to incorporate it all is another story, but I like that you put forth the effort to explain where you're coming from. It's enlightening. 

41_swish

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #96 on: May 26, 2025, 11:02:20 PM »
I have only really been investing for three years and about six months as a mustache. Trying to time the market seems impossible. I started in the down year of 2022 followed by two crazy back to back years in 2023 and 2024. All you can do is control what you can control and not freak out.

GuitarStv

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #97 on: May 27, 2025, 07:36:57 AM »
I have only really been investing for three years and about six months as a mustache. Trying to time the market seems impossible. I started in the down year of 2022 followed by two crazy back to back years in 2023 and 2024. All you can do is control what you can control and not freak out.

2022 wasn't a down year.  I started investing in 2007.  Now, 2008 . . . that was a down year.  :P

reeshau

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #98 on: May 27, 2025, 08:18:41 AM »
I have only really been investing for three years and about six months as a mustache. Trying to time the market seems impossible. I started in the down year of 2022 followed by two crazy back to back years in 2023 and 2024. All you can do is control what you can control and not freak out.

2022 wasn't a down year.  I started investing in 2007.  Now, 2008 . . . that was a down year.  :P

I once was on a flight with an aerospace engineering student.  There was some severe weather we were going around, and it was a bit bumpy.

DW complained about the severe turbulence, and he turned to her and, smiling, said: "This is just light turbulence.  It isn't moderate turbulence yet, because there are no free-floating objects."

2022 was light turbulence, unless you were heavy into SPAC's, bitcoin, and tech.

2008 was moderate turbulence.

41_swish

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Re: The mother of all dead cat bounces?
« Reply #99 on: May 27, 2025, 10:03:44 AM »
I was playing my Nintendo Wii and going to 4th grade in 2008, we are not the same :)