Author Topic: The best way to diversify RSU/ESPP shares  (Read 1232 times)

unrealnighthawk

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The best way to diversify RSU/ESPP shares
« on: June 03, 2023, 10:38:05 PM »
Hello Mustachians!

I'm trying to educate myself about the RSUs and shares that I've been accumulating through my employer and the most mustachian way to handle it all. I've searched this forum, read a dozen or so posts from others, and tried to research elsewhere on the internet - but I'm still left with a lot of questions. I'm finally giving in and posting about my situation in hopes that you can help.

I'll start by sharing that I believe I have the priorities in order (emergency fund, HSA 401k and Roth IRA all maxed, only debt is a 2.375% mortgage, life & disability insurance, 529 college savings) and I'm good to start holding taxable investments.

1. What's the best way for a layman — who honestly doesn't want to micromanage or or think about it that often — to learn enough about this to make educated decisions?

Before visiting the MMM forum I was under the assumption that I should hold my shares for 1 year after the RSUs have vested and the ESPP stocks are purchased to avoid the higher capital gains taxes. But it sounds like a lot of you are recommend a cashless exercise / same-day sale.

2. I get that it's risky to have all of your eggs in one basket, but don't higher capital gains taxes apply to a cashless exercise? I don't have any reason to expect the stock to go down and it seems like it's worth waiting a year. What am I missing?

3. About $10k of $90k in my ETRADE account has been held for a year and is in "long term" capital gains status. If I wanted to diversify into an index fund, is it as easy as selling the stock and buying the index fund? Is there any reason to keep this in ETRADE vs some other company?

4. The stock that I've had over a year would be sold at a loss of ~$1,200. I read that losses may not be such a big deal since it would help offset profit from other stock sales (which I'm expecting when more stock matures). Is it as easy as it sounds? If I expect the stock to turn a profit in the next 3 months, is it worth holding onto, or is that a slippery slope?

5. What are the obvious questions I haven't thought to ask yet? What other things should I be thinking about right now?

Thanks in advance!

seattlecyclone

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Re: The best way to diversify RSU/ESPP shares
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2023, 12:48:31 AM »
1. What's the best way for a layman — who honestly doesn't want to micromanage or or think about it that often — to learn enough about this to make educated decisions?

Before visiting the MMM forum I was under the assumption that I should hold my shares for 1 year after the RSUs have vested and the ESPP stocks are purchased to avoid the higher capital gains taxes. But it sounds like a lot of you are recommend a cashless exercise / same-day sale.

RSU vesting is generally taxed the same as if the company had paid you in cash on vesting day and you then turned around and spent that cash on company stock at the current market price. Your cost basis will then be the same as the fair market value of the stock on the vesting date. Yes the short-term capital gains tax rate is higher than the long-term capital gains rate, but if your gain is zero (or near zero) the tax rate is basically irrelevant.

ESPP is a bit of a different story. Here's an old post about how the taxation works here. It's harder to give a one-size-fits-all piece of advice here. If your company stock has gone up a bunch there may be more of a tax incentive to wait a while (often 18 months) before selling than if the stock price has stayed relatively flat or gone down.

You mention the term "cashless exercise" which often applies to stock options more than either RSUs or ESPP shares. Options are yet another thing that has a somewhat different set of factors to consider.

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2. I get that it's risky to have all of your eggs in one basket, but don't higher capital gains taxes apply to a cashless exercise? I don't have any reason to expect the stock to go down and it seems like it's worth waiting a year. What am I missing?

1) As I mentioned above with RSU shares the cost basis is whatever the value was on vesting day, so if you sell right away there's basically no capital gains so basically no capital gains tax.
2) Risk. Your company stock may perform very differently from the rest of the market while you're waiting for the capital gains to get long-term status. The long-term capital gains may save you a few percent, but the variation of the stock price compared to the rest of the market will very likely have a higher magnitude (in which direction? who can say?) than this tax savings.

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3. About $10k of $90k in my ETRADE account has been held for a year and is in "long term" capital gains status. If I wanted to diversify into an index fund, is it as easy as selling the stock and buying the index fund? Is there any reason to keep this in ETRADE vs some other company?

Yes it is that simple to switch your investments. Just sell one and buy the other. The brokerage you hold this stuff in doesn't matter all that much. They each have their own fee structure and level of customer service but in the grand scheme of things you'll probably do basically as well holding an index fund with Etrade as you will do holding that same index fund in Vanguard or Fidelity or Schwab or pretty much any other low-cost firm.

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4. The stock that I've had over a year would be sold at a loss of ~$1,200. I read that losses may not be such a big deal since it would help offset profit from other stock sales (which I'm expecting when more stock matures). Is it as easy as it sounds? If I expect the stock to turn a profit in the next 3 months, is it worth holding onto, or is that a slippery slope?

The capital loss will offset any gains when you compute your taxes in the spring. Your brokerage(s) will send you a 1099-B form summarizing this information.

What reason do you have to expect that this stock will erase the losses over the next three months?

reeshau

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Re: The best way to diversify RSU/ESPP shares
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2023, 04:29:03 AM »
2. I get that it's risky to have all of your eggs in one basket, but don't higher capital gains taxes apply to a cashless exercise? I don't have any reason to expect the stock to go down and it seems like it's worth waiting a year. What am I missing?

1) As I mentioned above with RSU shares the cost basis is whatever the value was on vesting day, so if you sell right away there's basically no capital gains so basically no capital gains tax.
2) Risk. Your company stock may perform very differently from the rest of the market while you're waiting for the capital gains to get long-term status. The long-term capital gains may save you a few percent, but the variation of the stock price compared to the rest of the market will very likely have a higher magnitude (in which direction? who can say?) than this tax savings.


There is also a unique risk with your company's stock, in that it is roughly "correlated" with your salary; that is, if the company hits a rough patch, not only does its stock go down, but you also have a risk of layoffs.  That gives you two problems simultaneously.  This is what happened to large tech companies late last year.  For many, this increased risk would create too much stress and isn't worth the perceived benefit of a "sure" deal.

I would also say that many people also overestimate the amount of "insider knowledge" they have about their company, expecting that they would be able to foresee trouble.  If you are really an insider, you will know because your name will be taken down by the company's legal department, and you will be told you are restricted in what you can say about the insider topic, and what you can do with your company stock.  It's not fun, and it's not subtle.  For many other employees, it's more like they are blinded by the routine of their business, and may be the last ones to know.  Just ask ex-Enron employees.

If you have your emergency fund fully funded, and well-planned in that it covers the risks you need, including job loss, then it might be worth the gamble.

To the OP, I would point out that you say these two things in your post:

"I don't have any reason to expect the stock to go down and it seems like it's worth waiting a year. What am I missing?"

"The stock that I've had over a year would be sold at a loss of ~$1,200."
« Last Edit: June 05, 2023, 07:02:46 AM by reeshau »

VanillaGorilla

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Re: The best way to diversify RSU/ESPP shares
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2023, 05:50:41 PM »
It's been several years since I've worked at a company that offers either ESPP or RSUs, so I'm a tad rusty, but the posts above capture it well.

RSUs are taxed as income, there's no benefit to holding them for any period of time.

ESPP can be taxed as capital gains, so there can be a benefit to holding them for a six months to a year to avoid short term capital gains.

I will reiterate the point that holding company stock fails to hedge your bets, as too many of your eggs are in one basket. I have several friends and former coworkers who found this out the hard way. They naively held all their RSU and ESPP shares as the company stock was skyrocketing. Senior management was busy pushing through shady deals and of course the stock price crashed hard, trading at 2017 levels right now. These friends saw their portfolios halved overnight without any realistic chance of it going back up any time soon.

Your unvested shares are your hedge against the company stock going up. Selling vested shares and diversifying is your hedge against the company performing poorly. Pretend you're working at Enron.

I personally would hold the RSU shares as soon as they vest, and hold the ESPP until they qualify as long term gains, then liquidate and buy index funds.

 

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