Author Topic: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?  (Read 3185 times)

Ron Scott

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One of the goals in buying a broad index funds is to reduce the risk of holding a concentrated portfolio. But today’s markets are heavily concentrated, with the top 10 often comprising a third the the market’s value. Plus, valuations are at historic levels.

Is VTSAX/VTI gospel? Maybe try to stay broad, but reduce the concentration inherent in those funds?

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2024, 10:57:48 AM »
Equal weighting performs better when small caps are outpacing the index.  This is theoretically "often" because it is hard for companies in the trillion plus market cap range to grow the top line by 20% a year over a long period of time.  This is very doable for a company just breaking into the 2B club.  But it hasn't shown up in equal weight performance as the big companies have been eating the smaller ones when they show potential for rapid growth. 

If Trump and co. are actually serious about breaking up big Tech and other monopolies, the spin offs could be the big winners of the next decade. 

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2024, 09:34:42 AM »
Decades ago, to better track stock market performance, academics added the "small" and "value" factors to their models.  Historical data across countries revealed both of those factors increased returns - over a long enough time period.

An equal weight index gives "Franklin Resources" (500th stock in Vanguard's S&P 500 ETF) the same weight as Apple.  Typically, they rebalance quarterly, so you will see deviation from equal weight over the course of a few months.  But that weighting to smaller companies produces a small cap effect, in theory.

In practice, big tech stocks (large/growth) have outpaced the market for a couple decades.  Any allocation to larger stocks, technology or growth gives an oversized allocation to the stocks that have performed the best over the past 20 years or so.  If you don't believe that continues, it could make sense to diversify away from those, to small/value stocks.

You could buy large cap, mid cap and small cap ETFs separately, and decide what weight to give each one.

reeshau

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2024, 11:57:17 AM »
Overall performance is one thing, but market cap weighting makes a bubble even bubblier.  As Whatever, inc. rises above the market, its weighting also rises.  Then the market crashes, or Whatever's accounting hits a scandal, and it suddenly drops more than the market.

What happens to the funds tracking the index, when it rebalances? They buy high, and sell low.

Maybe the good years in between make up for it, but if you are the type that likes smooth sailing, you may have trouble surviving the extra turbulence.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 06:13:01 AM by reeshau »

ChpBstrd

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2024, 12:23:53 PM »
A simplistic risk-on / risk-off understanding of markets does a remarkably good job of explaining why large-cap growth stocks go up and down as compared to the rest of the market.

I wonder if something like the CNN Fear/Greed indicator might be correlated if averaged in the long run.

LennStar

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2024, 01:16:42 PM »
In short: Nobody knows (before).

At least if we are talking about the same stocks, an index of type X will sometimes outperform an index of type Y by a surprising amoung, while a few years later the opposite is the case.

The long term difference seems to tend to no difference. (Based on a long-time math study of several big indeces.)

Ron Scott

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2024, 05:29:24 AM »
Of course we now have Goldman et al talking of a coming “lost decade” for US equities, with real returns of 1-2%. I guess they don’t believe the hyped big tech/AI boost to corporate productivity will be a white knight ushering in amazing new products on the cheap.

What would a lost decade do to your SWR planning and the cap-weighted stock fund mantra?

GilesMM

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2024, 06:17:58 AM »
One of the goals in buying a broad index funds is to reduce the risk of holding a concentrated portfolio. But today’s markets are heavily concentrated, with the top 10 often comprising a third the the market’s value. Plus, valuations are at historic levels.

Is VTSAX/VTI gospel? Maybe try to stay broad, but reduce the concentration inherent in those funds?


Historically, total market valuations are at "historic levels" about 16 times every year as the market rises.


You are welcome to reduce concentration but you will be owning less of the top companies and more of the weaker ones which I don't see as a good thing. You will get a different return for sure.  You would have lost the bet the last few decades but maybe "it's different this time".

markbike528CBX

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2024, 06:07:43 PM »
One might consider a set of capitalization weighted indexes.
It is not an even line, but averages out to equal-ish capitalization.
See attachment.

A large cap (Total stock ) index fund is limited on what it can buy for smaller stocks.
Quote
Investment in Other Investment Companies. Mutual fund investments in other registered investment
companies are limited (Section 12(d)(1) of the 1940 Act).
 Generally, a mutual fund may not (i) purchase more than 3 percent of the outstanding voting
stock of another investment company;
https://www.kramerlevin.com/a/web/EuApbFSr88FiEFKobqHes/overview-of-key-mutual-fund-regulations.pdf#:~:text=Generally%2C%20a%20mutual%20fund%20may%20not%20(i),percent%20of%20the%20mutual%20fund%27s%20total%20assets.
So you kinda have to roll your own.

Equal weighted funds are a cool idea, but costly to implement due to trading losses.
You have to sell your winners to keep everything equal. Transaction costs are larger than similar capitalization weighted funds.
If you don't rebalance often, your equal weight will turn into a capitalization weighted fund. Not a worst case scenario, but not what you were looking for.
The idea of an equal balanced index has been tried. https://www.capitalideasonline.com/wordpress/a-history-of-indexing/?pdf=12347
Quote
with a strategy based on an equal-weighted index of all equities listed on the New
York Stock Exchange. Fouse described its execution as “a nightmare.”

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Equal_weighted_indices
file:///Users/nota/Downloads/10+MillerFinal.pdf.
TLDR "When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value? --- sometimes.

Sort of Non-sequitur link for my memory.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2019/02/12/a-warning-from-the-late-john-bogle/
Quote
As a proof point, the equal-weighted S&P index declined 59% from peak to trough during this drawdown compared to the 55% decline for the cap-weighted version.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140512223138/http://www.spindices.com/documents/education/practice-essentials-equal-weight.pdf
« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 06:18:55 PM by markbike528CBX »

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2024, 11:26:14 PM »
Historically, total market valuations are at "historic levels" about 16 times every year as the market rises.
Do you have an online source demonstrating this claim?  If something "historic" happens more than once per month, that doesn't sound historic.

Cyclically adjusted P/E ratio measures 10 years of earnings over current prices (for a stock, or an entire index like the S&P 500).  That has just reached its second-highest peak in history, going back 150 years.  To me, the second highest valuation in 150 years would be historic, as shown here:
https://www.multpl.com/shiller-pe

GilesMM

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2024, 04:52:25 AM »
Historically, total market valuations are at "historic levels" about 16 times every year as the market rises.
Do you have an online source demonstrating this claim?  If something "historic" happens more than once per month, that doesn't sound historic.

...


Some years have as many as 50 highs!  https://www.rbcgam.com/en/ca/learn-plan/investment-basics/investing-at-all-time-highs/detail


Historic in this context just means higher than it has ever been before.

vand

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2024, 05:46:09 AM »
A simplistic risk-on / risk-off understanding of markets does a remarkably good job of explaining why large-cap growth stocks go up and down as compared to the rest of the market.

I wonder if something like the CNN Fear/Greed indicator might be correlated if averaged in the long run.

I don't think that's true at all tbh.

The current concentration is unprecendented, and you would have had to have been very smart to be able to have predicted it say, 10 years ago - Historically when companies hae grown to dominant positions that eventually turns them into stalwarts that are then replaced in the next secular cycle.  What's so unique about so the large caps today is how they all have huge a networking effect that increases their moat as they get larger, which is how they've managed to keep growing to these gigantic sizes and still keep growing.   It could be argued that they've become very attractive to traditional "defensive" investors as this network-effect moats form give them huge defensive properties, and yet also still attractive to risk-seeking investors due to their growth.

Maybe a better way to frame the question is when do small caps outperform?

Historically this has been when
- towards the tail end of bull markets when risk appetite is greatest and people are looking for "the next xyz" multibagger
- when the monetary conditions are loosest, as smaller companies are often more constrained in their ability to access cheap finance

There are many other factors but tbh they are quite debatable - to me these are the main ones


Personally I don't worry at all about the concentration, and I would rather underweight US equities as a whole but keep my allocation cap weighted than be all-in on US but more tilted to EWing.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2024, 05:51:36 AM by vand »

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2024, 12:07:31 PM »
Overall performance is one thing, but market cap weighting makes a bubble even bubblier.  As Whatever, inc. rises above the market, its weighting also rises.  Then the market crashes, or Whatever's accounting hits a scandal, and it suddenly drops more than the market.

What happens to the funds tracking the index, when it rebalances? They buy high, and sell low.

Maybe the good years in between make up for it, but if you are the type that likes smooth sailing, you may have trouble surviving the extra turbulence.

But a cap weighted fund does not have to rebalance due to market movements, it self-rebalances by the nature of being cap weighted. Of course when new money comes in and it has to buy, it buys a new mix to keep with the weighting. Similar for sell orders.


If a stock triples, the fund needs to hold triple the value, time to buy high...oh wait, it's already at triple the value, glad we actually bought low.

ChpBstrd

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2024, 12:27:12 PM »
A simplistic risk-on / risk-off understanding of markets does a remarkably good job of explaining why large-cap growth stocks go up and down as compared to the rest of the market.

I wonder if something like the CNN Fear/Greed indicator might be correlated if averaged in the long run.

I don't think that's true at all tbh.

The current concentration is unprecendented, and you would have had to have been very smart to be able to have predicted it say, 10 years ago - Historically when companies hae grown to dominant positions that eventually turns them into stalwarts that are then replaced in the next secular cycle.  What's so unique about so the large caps today is how they all have huge a networking effect that increases their moat as they get larger, which is how they've managed to keep growing to these gigantic sizes and still keep growing.   It could be argued that they've become very attractive to traditional "defensive" investors as this network-effect moats form give them huge defensive properties, and yet also still attractive to risk-seeking investors due to their growth.

Maybe a better way to frame the question is when do small caps outperform?

Historically this has been when
- towards the tail end of bull markets when risk appetite is greatest and people are looking for "the next xyz" multibagger
- when the monetary conditions are loosest, as smaller companies are often more constrained in their ability to access cheap finance

There are many other factors but tbh they are quite debatable - to me these are the main ones


Personally I don't worry at all about the concentration, and I would rather underweight US equities as a whole but keep my allocation cap weighted than be all-in on US but more tilted to EWing.
Excellent points. Big tech is uniquely suited to take advantage of the patent system, the Communications Decency Act, gateways based on apps and URLs, and the inherent scalability of internet-enabled services to create moats and drive up revenue-per-employee, so that they never have to become bloated and complacent.

And I agree, small caps should be expected to benefit from looser financial conditions, falling rates, and FOMO narratives like we're seeing today. Their growth is mostly limited by access to cheap funding, rather than demand itself.

These reasons may have motivated the OP's question. It certainly looks like things are lining up favorably for companies other than the biggest mega-caps. And at the same time, it looks like large-caps are dangerously overvalued, even if they do have advantages.

E.g. in January 2000, just before the dot-com meltdown, the S&P500 had a forward PE ratio around 25, and the S&P600 small cap index was at around 18. By 2004, both indices' PE ratios had converged on about 18. Today, the S&P500 is at a forward PE of 22, while the S&P600 has risen to 17.

Today's 5x gap is less than the 7x gap which preceded the 2000-2003 bear market, but not far behind. I don't know if it's safe to call it a "rule" that EW will outperform cap-weighting when large caps get too expensive compared to their peers. It may be safer to say all stocks are in danger when that happens.





To share another quote from an article shared below by @markbike528CBX
Quote
For example, while the cap-weighted S&P 500 declined 47% from peak to trough [after the 2000 tech bubble], the equal-weighted S&P 500 only declined 26%, a notable divergence.

The difference between EW's +21% outperformance after the 2000 tech bubble and EW's -4% underperformance after the 2008 crisis may be revealed in the valuation chart above. In 2000, concentration was high and the top-performers fell the hardest. In 2008, concentration was relatively low and everything fell. Of course, it's also worth mentioning that 2000-2002 happened because of valuations, whereas 2007-2009 was a liquidity crisis. Today's valuations look more like the pre-2000 world than the pre-2007 world, as can be seen above.

Essentially, the setup to the 2000-2002 bear market featured large caps being much more expensive than smaller stocks, whereas the setup to the 2007-2009 bear market features small caps being much more expensive than large caps. In both cases, the bear market reset valuations so that large and small caps had forward PE's close to one another, and significantly lower than before.

reeshau

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2024, 12:28:37 PM »
Overall performance is one thing, but market cap weighting makes a bubble even bubblier.  As Whatever, inc. rises above the market, its weighting also rises.  Then the market crashes, or Whatever's accounting hits a scandal, and it suddenly drops more than the market.

What happens to the funds tracking the index, when it rebalances? They buy high, and sell low.

Maybe the good years in between make up for it, but if you are the type that likes smooth sailing, you may have trouble surviving the extra turbulence.

But a cap weighted fund does not have to rebalance due to market movements, it self-rebalances by the nature of being cap weighted. Of course when new money comes in and it has to buy, it buys a new mix to keep with the weighting. Similar for sell orders.


If a stock triples, the fund needs to hold triple the value, time to buy high...oh wait, it's already at triple the value, glad we actually bought low.

That's true, if everything grows at the same rate.  It's when certain companies grow faster than the market, that additional action needs to be taken.  That's why I didn't say it happens all the time, but with bubbles.

Also, because I didn't see one, here is a picture of the cumulative effect, since 1990:

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2024, 12:42:52 PM »
Of course we now have Goldman et al talking of a coming “lost decade” for US equities, with real returns of 1-2%. I guess they don’t believe the hyped big tech/AI boost to corporate productivity will be a white knight ushering in amazing new products on the cheap.

What would a lost decade do to your SWR planning and the cap-weighted stock fund mantra?

US equities make up 20-25% of my portfolio.  11- 14% if you count real estate holdings.  A lost decade would suck, but shouldn't cripple us.  Unless it coincides with markets around the world doing the same.  And bonds tanking.

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2024, 01:07:35 AM »
Historically, total market valuations are at "historic levels" about 16 times every year as the market rises.
Do you have an online source demonstrating this claim?  If something "historic" happens more than once per month, that doesn't sound historic.

...

Some years have as many as 50 highs!  https://www.rbcgam.com/en/ca/learn-plan/investment-basics/investing-at-all-time-highs/detail

Historic in this context just means higher than it has ever been before.

Stocks going up isn't historic.  Because stocks go up, they hit new highs.  I'm not aware of that ever being called "historic", but here's the definition I'm using, from Meriam-Webster's online dictionary:

"famous or important in history"
"having great and lasting importance"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/historic

GilesMM

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2024, 06:16:20 AM »
Historically, total market valuations are at "historic levels" about 16 times every year as the market rises.
Do you have an online source demonstrating this claim?  If something "historic" happens more than once per month, that doesn't sound historic.

...

Some years have as many as 50 highs!  https://www.rbcgam.com/en/ca/learn-plan/investment-basics/investing-at-all-time-highs/detail

Historic in this context just means higher than it has ever been before.

Stocks going up isn't historic.  Because stocks go up, they hit new highs.  I'm not aware of that ever being called "historic", but here's the definition I'm using, from Meriam-Webster's online dictionary:

"famous or important in history"
"having great and lasting importance"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/historic


I see "Historic High" mentioned all the time so it is commonly used, at least in finance.  Sorry if it confuses some.  Here is what Cambridge says:


https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/historic-high


HISTORIC HIGH - the highest level that something, such as a price or interest rate, has been at any time


hit/reached a historic high
Home assessments hit historic highs this year despite declining market values
Profits, as a share of national income, are at a historic high.

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2024, 07:54:01 PM »
I'm not an equal weight advocate, but I have mentioned over the past few years my portfolio is more like equal weight than cap weight.  This overall has been negative, performance wise.

I'm okay with that.  Equal weight-ish gives me much more diversity and I believe better value prospects than cap weight.   I make no predictions about the future, but I am comfortable with my choices.   

Must_ache

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2024, 10:50:21 PM »
Ignoring the dividends, over the last 20 years an equal-weighted index (RSP) is up about 4.9x and the S&P is up about 5.2x. 

After the 2008-09 drop, equal weighted seemed to do a bit better but the 2020 pandemic put everything on equal footing. 
Only after 2023 does the S&P start to run away from equal-weighted.

Not sure it makes a massive difference long-term. 

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2024, 02:23:23 AM »
This report is from June 2023, comparing the S&P 500 to an equal-weight S&P 500.  Note also the S&P 600, the small cap index, which kept pace with the equal-weight index for most of the 20 years shown in this article's graphs:
https://www.spglobal.com/spdji/en/research/article/worth-the-weight

Simpler view from July 2023 comparing just S&P 500 with S&P 500 Equal Weight portfolio:
https://www.spglobal.com/spdji/en/research/article/worth-the-weight

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2024, 08:29:33 AM »
I've also been concerned about the heavy weighting of traditional indexes.  I held an equal-weight fund for a while, but eventually sold it when it became clear that the higher fees and tax inefficiency didn't make it worthwhile. 

I eventually solved this issue in a different way.  My core domestic holdings are split evenly between three Schwab ETF's:
-SCHB: A broad market index that holds all of the major holding of other index's.  It's overweight in all the same stocks at your S&P funds.
-SCHD: A broad fund that is focused on high dividend stocks.  It is also heavily weighted towards a a small number of holdings, but they are different companies in different sectors than the top holdings of SCHB
-SCHA: A broad fund holding small-cap stocks.  This fund is well diversified across sectors and individual companies.

While this path isn't for everyone, I feel that my portfolio is diversified somewhat from the big tech names, while maintaining a balance between stability and growth. 

Another  route to solving this is to add some sector specific funds to your mix.  You could add some funds like VDC (Consumer Staples) and VPU (Utilities) that are under-weighted in the major indices.

vand

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2025, 07:10:43 AM »
Narrow markets are the exception, not the rule
https://www.rbadvisors.com/insights/narrow-markets-are-the-exception-not-the-rule/



2023/24 was the narrowest stock market since 1998/99’s technology bubble, which in turn was the narrowest market since the Nifty 50 period of the early 1970s.  With only three such periods in the past 50 years, narrow markets are the exception and not the rule.


..

Because narrow markets are the exception and not the rule, history shows that markets broaden for years after periods of extremely narrow market leadership.  Investors, however, tend to wait for the abnormally narrow leadership to reassert itself rather than repositioning portfolios for a more normal market.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: When does equal weighting perform better than weighting by market value?
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2025, 03:12:47 PM »
Morningstar shows the S&P 500 beating the equal weight index over all periods of 1 year to 15 years.
https://www.morningstar.com/etfs/arcx/rsp/performance
https://www.morningstar.com/etfs/arcx/spy/performance
Note that excludes the year 2008, where RSP lost 40% and the S&P 500 dropped 37% (according to Yahoo Finance data)

An earlier article showed equal weight beating the S&P 500 over a long time period, but the above illustrates an important point: an investor might have to wait a long time for their asset allocation to work.