The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Investor Alley => Topic started by: Fru-Gal on August 05, 2021, 07:23:39 PM
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It's just so uncomfortably speculative. I guess too as I get closer to my FIRE number I think of doing things that are less risky, and I am an aggressive investor to begin with (99% stocks mainly in various index funds & growth pools). So I was up 18% last night and saw all the "pump it up" social media posts and thought, even though this was always money I was comfortable losing ($1500 put in bit by bit over the course of a year), I didn't want the stress. Plus I have read all the Vanguard and other arguments against crypto as an investment vehicle.
Basically crypto reminds me of Forex & gold. With the added bonus of excessive energy consumption.
But yeah could be my $1500 was gonna be worth $10k in a few years...
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Yep crypto isn't for everyone.
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For a time in the early 2000's, people would share stories at parties about how they bought 2 shares of xyz.com in '97 and it went up 6000% and then they lost it all (parties were also a thing in the early 2000's).
Those people's kids have been buying SPACs and crypto.
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For a time in the early 2000's, people would share stories at parties about how they bought 2 shares of xyz.com in '97 and it went up 6000% and then they lost it all (parties were also a thing in the early 2000's).
Those people's kids have been buying SPACs and crypto.
Oh, this is so true it hurts.
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People had parties?!
Yeah with stocks there is a potential underlying value. Obviously there is money to be made from crypto speculation, perhaps for a long time yet. But having had some "fun" meme stock experiences (I didn't risk much) now I am noticing the "pump-and-dump" patterns/language from small (possibly bot) and massive (billionaire) operators.
Once something becomes a meme, it's likely time to sell.
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I listened to this podcast the other night, where a crypto skeptic chats with a guy way into the nano cryptocurrency. I think it’s one of the most thorough explanations as to why cryptocurrency is mostly a bad idea. For the patient, I highly recommend checking it out: https://anchor.fm/when-the-music-stops/episodes/Nano--Digital-Cash-w-Patrick-Luberus-e15db6b
(Note: you can skip the first hour or so, unless you’re really interested in hearing about nano, specifically. The good stuff starts afterwards)
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Thx, I will check it out.
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It's just so uncomfortably speculative. I guess too as I get closer to my FIRE number I think of doing things that are less risky, and I am an aggressive investor to begin with (99% stocks mainly in various index funds & growth pools). So I was up 18% last night and saw all the "pump it up" social media posts and thought, even though this was always money I was comfortable losing ($1500 put in bit by bit over the course of a year), I didn't want the stress. Plus I have read all the Vanguard and other arguments against crypto as an investment vehicle.
Basically crypto reminds me of Forex & gold. With the added bonus of excessive energy consumption.
But yeah could be my $1500 was gonna be worth $10k in a few years...
LOL:) - why would anyone sell now? ETH is spiking because they underwent a major upgrade the EIP-1559, the London fork.
A successful, extremely complicated code upgrade - years in the making.
A completely public upgrade that was streamed and celebrated around the globe.
Burning ETH in order to make it considerably more green and clean and wait for it - the transaction fees will go down. It will become deflationary with the next upgrade in December, slight deflationary improvements will show now.
Here you go
https://cointelegraph.com/news/ethereum-london-hard-fork-goes-live
Comparing ETH to a meme coin clearly shows the level of ignorance about crypto in this forum. Stop repeating FUD that media spouted months ago.
The excessive energy consumption will disappear entirely going forward.
The 18% increase is hardly enough to raise an eyebrow in the cryptoverse - surely that is one reason you bought that coin:). I actually thought the price might go down afterward "sell the rumor", but I am happy with the increase. Might hit $3K soon.
Media
You mean the same media who broadcasted incessantly about Jamie Dimond, CEO of JP Morgan publicly denouncing crypto for months on end.
Yeah well, yesterday in financial news JPMorgan announced a new crypto fund for their wealth management clients.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jpmorgan-offering-crypto-funds-wealth-111456797.html?.tsrc=fin-srch
I don't even want to know the steep price of admission into those 'sanctioned' investments - plebs barred at the door.
From the article:
Multinational investment bank JPMorgan Chase has been offering several crypto funds to its clients over the past few weeks. This new offering has been taking place quietly in the background, without much pomp, and was revealed by sources who spoke to CNBC. Clients of its wealth management fund have been given access to six crypto funds over the last month, according to the report.
How come you are not calling out the banks for investing in crypto OTC and offering their funds to the wealthy?
Anyway, you are right of course - one shouldn't stay in any investment one is not comfortable with including one's fun money.
I am quite comfortable with my ETH. Fun to see it go from $1.8K to $2.8K - I bought the dip, but I'm definitely not selling.
Unless it goes ballistic at which time I'll take some profit.
I am perfectly content to hold for now or the long term, depending on what happens in the cryptoverse.
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It's just so uncomfortably speculative. I guess too as I get closer to my FIRE number I think of doing things that are less risky, and I am an aggressive investor to begin with (99% stocks mainly in various index funds & growth pools). So I was up 18% last night and saw all the "pump it up" social media posts and thought, even though this was always money I was comfortable losing ($1500 put in bit by bit over the course of a year), I didn't want the stress. Plus I have read all the Vanguard and other arguments against crypto as an investment vehicle.
Basically crypto reminds me of Forex & gold. With the added bonus of excessive energy consumption.
But yeah could be my $1500 was gonna be worth $10k in a few years...
Good call. Crypto is nothing more than a casino so best to cash in your chips if you’re ahead then never go back.
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The CEO of Binance just resigned… https://twitter.com/brianbrooksus/status/1423727097323802626?s=21
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I have been a member of this site for some time now. I initially joined as a way to be encouraged using tried and true, slow and steady wins the race kind of stuff to financial freedom. Lately this site seems to be drifting to the get rich quick side of investing, options, margins, crypto and other complicated plans to get ahead.
As to this thread specifically, I haven't got the reason why there is crypto other than "people" say you can get rich "investing in it". The stock market isn't a casino, but crypto seems to be. I know people that "own" it. In the years since its been out I know ZERO people who have used it. It's almost like it really isn't meant to be currency...
To the OP, you made a profit. Count that as a win and move on. Forget the FOMO.
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To @Rosy I saw your other posts and have done some reading about all the points you mention. Clearly it is a way to make money and like I said it seems most similar to Forex in that respect. Having done some research earlier this year I felt ETH was the most promising. The part I don't like is the excessive/confusing complication -- wallets, burning, staking. And the energy part of it. I was holding it on Robinhood which may not be optimal either. Clearly your level of knowledge and research may well bring you different results.
Oh and I actually didn't mean meme coins, I meant meme stocks. But the behaviors around either seem about the same.
Finally, it's a funny change I note in *myself*, where I suddenly feel a smidge risk-averse where before I was balls-to-wall, due to the fact that I have almost gotten myself to FIRE.
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To @Rosy I saw your other posts and have done some reading about all the points you mention. Clearly it is a way to make money and like I said it seems most similar to Forex in that respect. Having done some research earlier this year I felt ETH was the most promising. The part I don't like is the excessive/confusing complication -- wallets, burning, staking. And the energy part of it. I was holding it on Robinhood which may not be optimal either. Clearly your level of knowledge and research may well bring you different results.
Oh and I actually didn't mean meme coins, I meant meme stocks. But the behaviors around either seem about the same.
Finally, it's a funny change I note in *myself*, where I suddenly feel a smidge risk-averse where before I was balls-to-wall, due to the fact that I have almost gotten myself to FIRE.
@Fru-Gal - I think you chose well with ETH. It did surpass $3K today so there is that, but it doesn't mean anything unless I cash out, deduct the fees and the 40% capital gains tax.
Yes, I noticed your changed feelings in view of almost being fired but you know, I think those are simply stages we all go through on our personal financial journey.
Being so close to a long-term goal puts one on high alert.
You don't want to do anything that might remotely jeopardize your ultimate desired outcome.
I totally get that:). I swear I didn't breathe the month before I hit FI, I know the feeling.
***Edited to add that
the meme coins are a thing unto themselves (I wasn't actually thinking of you when I made my meme comment).
Anyone with a brain quickly moves away from that detrimental part of the cryptoverse.
They will be gone soon enough once the regulators swoop in.
I'm not an expert by a long shot. I'm retired, with plenty of time to enjoy risk analysis and researching projects/start-ups (that was my job in another life).
I like the premise, the promise, and the potential of crypto/blockchain projects.
It became my pet project. Stage one of my plan worked. I am very close to walking away with a cool $100K - enough to give me butterflies:).
The US is coming for crypto hard so I'm mostly out for now. I guess I'll find my thrill with Vanguard Emerging Markets:).
It is time to walk off into the sunset, I got lucky - it took me 3.5 years to save up $100K and only 3.5 months for the next $100K.
Fru-Gal, good luck with your fire goal every eth helps:) rest assured you are not the only one putting crypto to good use.
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I’m not big into crypto, but from what I can see, Bitcoin is the replacement for gold, and Ethereum is going to basically be the operating system of financial transactions on the internet. I don’t own Bitcoin, but I don’t know if I can bring myself to sell Ether for years. It’s just too important.
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The CEO of Binance just resigned… https://twitter.com/brianbrooksus/status/1423727097323802626?s=21
What do you think, @the_gastropod ? He discovered something he doesn't want to be associated with?
Now there is this bit of news kept under wraps until yesterday - same MO, different exchange - Coinbase:
Brett Redfearn, a former federal regulator who joined Coinbase Global Inc. earlier this year, has left the cryptocurrency exchange after about four months on the job
https://www.wsj.com/articles/coinbase-says-capital-markets-head-brett-redfearn-has-left-company-11628531644
Interesting - two high profile insider American regulators. One quit the world's largest exchange and the other quit the largest American exchange.
Both within 3-4 months on the job.
Like I keep saying Crypto is endlessly entertaining.
The most interesting thing that happened last week was an astounding arrest warrant execution by the US. Based on an arrest warrant issued only that same morning by the South African government.
A warrant for alleged invoice fraud in a South African firm called Cape Cookies - dating back to 2009 ...
Which of course has absolutely nothing to do with Monero - the privacy coin whose code the US has been dying to crack. Unlike bitcoin, this coin is still private but not for sale on American sanctioned exchanges any longer. Globally it is still openly available.
The current "Bounty" to crack the code used on the Monero blockchain offered by the US is $625,000 - officially anyway.
Mr. Spagni - "Fluffy Pony":) former lead maintainer at Monero was arrested in his private airplane.
https://cryptobriefing.com/monero-developer-comments-on-fluffypony-arrest/
We'll see what happens this week. Bitcoin is waffling between $45K and $46K.
Interesting times we live in. House of Cards all around us.
Someone pulled four BILLION out of gold - perhaps they like the new digital gold better?
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What do you think, @the_gastropod ? He discovered something he doesn't want to be associated with?
Yea. Something like that, anyway. Binance has had some odd CEO stories, from Catherine Coley just suddenly vanishing last year, to this guy—Brian Brooks—quitting just a few months into the job. Binance and Tether have a very bizarre relationship, and I suspect they're mutually involved in some substantial financial fraud. My guess, at a minimum, is much of the "corporate paper" Tether holds as backing for their tether stablecoins was sold by Binance itself in exchange for tethers.
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@Fru-Gal - I think you chose well with ETH. It did surpass $3K today so there is that, but it doesn't mean anything unless I cash out, deduct the fees and the 40% capital gains tax.
But passing $3000 today isn't really that great considering it passed $4000 in May, right? Crypto as a field likely has some kind of long term future but the currently traded currencies are so obviously speculative.
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I listened to this podcast the other night, where a crypto skeptic chats with a guy way into the nano cryptocurrency. I think it’s one of the most thorough explanations as to why cryptocurrency is mostly a bad idea. For the patient, I highly recommend checking it out: https://anchor.fm/when-the-music-stops/episodes/Nano--Digital-Cash-w-Patrick-Luberus-e15db6b
(Note: you can skip the first hour or so, unless you’re really interested in hearing about nano, specifically. The good stuff starts afterwards)
Great podcast episode! I have degrees in both Economics and Computer Science, so I've spent a lot of time thinking about crypto over the years. His thoughts about and arguments against crypto are exactly what my conclusions have been except he has much better speaking skills than me. I used bitcoin once back in 2010, but have never speculated in it.
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I have been a member of this site for some time now. I initially joined as a way to be encouraged using tried and true, slow and steady wins the race kind of stuff to financial freedom. Lately this site seems to be drifting to the get rich quick side of investing, options, margins, crypto and other complicated plans to get ahead.
As to this thread specifically, I haven't got the reason why there is crypto other than "people" say you can get rich "investing in it". The stock market isn't a casino, but crypto seems to be. I know people that "own" it. In the years since its been out I know ZERO people who have used it. It's almost like it really isn't meant to be currency...
To the OP, you made a profit. Count that as a win and move on. Forget the FOMO.
You have a choice, every time you select a thread to read. Just don't read the stuff that doesn't interest you. There's plenty of good "tried and true" content here. However, "slow and steady" has never really been what the whole concept of FIRE is about...
FWIW, I'm FIRE and have ZERO interest in crypto. It's not going to make a hill of beans difference in my life, even if it explodes. That doesn't mean this forum has lost its relevance.
And I 100% agree with you on that last sentence. No FOMO for me.
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I have been a member of this site for some time now. I initially joined as a way to be encouraged using tried and true, slow and steady wins the race kind of stuff to financial freedom. Lately this site seems to be drifting to the get rich quick side of investing, options, margins, crypto and other complicated plans to get ahead.
As to this thread specifically, I haven't got the reason why there is crypto other than "people" say you can get rich "investing in it". The stock market isn't a casino, but crypto seems to be. I know people that "own" it. In the years since its been out I know ZERO people who have used it. It's almost like it really isn't meant to be currency...
To the OP, you made a profit. Count that as a win and move on. Forget the FOMO.
You have a choice, every time you select a thread to read. Just don't read the stuff that doesn't interest you. There's plenty of good "tried and true" content here. However, "slow and steady" has never really been what the whole concept of FIRE is about...
FWIW, I'm FIRE and have ZERO interest in crypto. It's not going to make a hill of beans difference in my life, even if it explodes. That doesn't mean this forum has lost its relevance.
And I 100% agree with you on that last sentence. No FOMO for me.
It's also a symptom of a quickly rising market. The FOMO market adherents will disappear when the market eventually crumbles.
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@Fru-Gal - I think you chose well with ETH. It did surpass $3K today so there is that, but it doesn't mean anything unless I cash out, deduct the fees and the 40% capital gains tax.
But passing $3000 today isn't really that great considering it passed $4000 in May, right? Crypto as a field likely has some kind of long term future but the currently traded currencies are so obviously speculative.
The May pricing or for that matter all current pricing is irrelevant since I'm simply betting on the future of crypto as a new digital asset.
ETH is a coin that will survive the ups and downs of the market alongside bitcoin.
I plan on holding BTC and ETH until the next crypto cycle (4yrs). I bought the ETH dip at $1800 up to $2,500 not $4000, although I DCA'd this month even at $3K. I see it as a long-term speculative investment with the caveat that BTC and ETH are the safe bets of the crypto world.
The Nano coin podcast mentioned is already on my don't buy list so thankfully I spared myself three hours of this economic expert's podcast. This coin is potential trouble. Nano doesn't fit my risk tolerance or my strategy and never will.
Right now, there is no point in cashing out of ETH or BTC because the US dollar is a rapidly depreciating currency.
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Right now, there is no point in cashing out of ETH or BTC because the US dollar is a rapidly depreciating currency.
I always see this sentiment expressed in the die hard crypto circles. "Hey man, I can't afford to be in fiat while I sleep, I'd be losing money!!". We can have a separate argument about USD devaluation and inflation, but honestly, when is the last time the US dollar lost half its value in a couple weeks? I just can't see the argument that you can't convert to dollars because it represents some unacceptable risk when clearly crypto's risk and potential for depreciation is much greater.
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Right now, there is no point in cashing out of ETH or BTC because the US dollar is a rapidly depreciating currency.
I always see this sentiment expressed in the die hard crypto circles. "Hey man, I can't afford to be in fiat while I sleep, I'd be losing money!!". We can have a separate argument about USD devaluation and inflation, but honestly, when is the last time the US dollar lost half its value in a couple weeks? I just can't see the argument that you can't convert to dollars because it represents some unacceptable risk when clearly crypto's risk and potential for depreciation is much greater.
And if the USD is rapidly depreciating, wouldn't some futures contracts on commodities or maybe a forex trade be the way to go?
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I am building a 5% BTC and ETH portfolio currently at 500/week and will stop accumulating when I retire. I will rebalance it every year if it rises. I will ignore it if it falls.
I used to laugh about crypto and people who buy it but it keeps hanging around. I have a feeling that there's something to it and that it may be REALLY big someday. If I'm wrong, then I'll lose 5% of my portfolio. That's a risk I'm willing to take over the long term.
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The Nano coin podcast mentioned is already on my don't buy list so thankfully I spared myself three hours of this economic expert's podcast. This coin is potential trouble. Nano doesn't fit my risk tolerance or my strategy and never will.
You may still be uninterested in listening, but the second half of the podcast is not really about Nano at all—it's about cryptocurrencies in general. They talk through some basic economics and some basic computer science to—I think—convincingly refute many of the standard crypto claims.
Right now, there is no point in cashing out of ETH or BTC because the US dollar is a rapidly depreciating currency.
This is a pretty common argument in crypto land. But it doesn't make much sense if you think about it. USD is a currency. The properties of ETH/BTC that you're using to make this argument—that they've historically increased (dramatically) in value—definitionally make them not a currency. This is like saying you prefer above-ground swimming pools to coffee beans, because you can swim in them. That's fine, but... it's kind of a bizarre argument.
Other vehicles exist if wealth preservation is what you're after—and they have lots of really nice properties. Bonds, stocks, TIPS, CD's, etc. are probably better comparisons, depending on what your actual argument is: number go up? Inflation hedge? ???
I am building a 5% BTC and ETH portfolio currently at 500/week and will stop accumulating when I retire. I will rebalance it every year if it rises. I will ignore it if it falls.
I used to laugh about crypto and people who buy it but it keeps hanging around. I have a feeling that there's something to it and that it may be REALLY big someday. If I'm wrong, then I'll lose 5% of my portfolio. That's a risk I'm willing to take over the long term.
What frustrates me about this mindset is that you seem to suggest that "Might as well play the game! It might just work!". The issue here is cryptocurrencies are, by definition, negative-sum games. You only profit when someone else loses. And money is constantly sucked out of the game completely by literal and deliberate energy waste. By "investing" in these scams, you're perpetuating harm. Best case scenario, your harm will be limited to: the planet and other "greater fool" investors. Likelier scenario, you'll be that greater fool, and lose that 5% you're willing to risk in the process.
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I have been a member of this site for some time now. I initially joined as a way to be encouraged using tried and true, slow and steady wins the race kind of stuff to financial freedom. Lately this site seems to be drifting to the get rich quick side of investing, options, margins, crypto and other complicated plans to get ahead.
As to this thread specifically, I haven't got the reason why there is crypto other than "people" say you can get rich "investing in it". The stock market isn't a casino, but crypto seems to be. I know people that "own" it. In the years since its been out I know ZERO people who have used it. It's almost like it really isn't meant to be currency...
To the OP, you made a profit. Count that as a win and move on. Forget the FOMO.
I meant to ignore your comment, but I think it is time to voice my opinion about crypto and how it is treated on this forum one last time.
@theolympians
- if you think that people who invest in crypto are only in that space to get rich quickly you are indeed clueless. You'd be surprised how many people depend on the monthly passive income of their "coin investments" whether it is college students paying their tuition or an aunt or grandma who subsidize their SS, accounts set up with the help of their grandkid or techie nephew.
People who expound the virtues of the tried and true have access to the tried and true - many people do not.
There are more people paying off their student loan debt with crypto than there are clueless idiots who get "rekt" trying to 100X some trading scheme.
As far as some of the members of this forum, too many have relentlessly bashed the crypto enthusiasts and declared them all speculative fools one too many times. The occasional brave soul who wants to discuss crypto is quickly steamrolled in any new thread, buried under tulip craze comments.
You speculate on crypto's demise just like I speculate on the future of crypto.
It is so blatantly obvious that even I, a long-time MMMr have trouble accepting that usually intelligent, fair and level-headed people make it a sport to spit on crypto. I don't know where crypto is going any more than anyone else in the world but literally preventing any civil discussion about crypto investments is going too far.
Perhaps it is I who should leave this space.
You are welcome to the tried and true crowd, it is a good lot but when it becomes fanatically so - then I'm out.
People change and forums change.
Peace out.
@AccidentalMiser - Just for fun - here is a "How to Retire by 2030" Crypto Investment Portfolio that is set up for $500 a week by Invest Answer on youtube.
He worked out several versions of it with different savings amounts, incl a spreadsheet for Australia, Portugal, or the Cayman Islands. I never knew the Cayman Islands were so expensive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgH3_3UQRe8&t=970s
The one I vaguely follow is a different one. He also started a $50K portfolio to reach one million by 2030. The live version was invested on 6-22-21 for all to see and is regularly updated. I'm already retired but this one fit so well with my own strategy I simply tweaked it. We'll see how it all goes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ToydGBBoLQ&t=430s
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I've said it before but it's just not worth trying to discuss crypto investments on this forum. The people here who have never invested in it know everything about it already apparently.
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literally preventing any civil discussion about crypto investments is going too far
Huh ? Discussion is not prevented in any way and the conversation has been entirely civil.
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Cryptocurrency is a difficult topic, simply because it is so polarized. Whereas I've found some incredibly intellectual and deep discussions about spending, money, happiness, and other finance topics, I've really never read a discussion on crypto, either for or against, that left me with that "Aha!" feeling I've gotten from other subjects. There always seems to be something missing from both sides, and this kind of fascinates me. Call me a positivist, but I can't help but think those meaty bits are there somewhere. Somewhere.
But that's all very subjective.
The one thing I have not appreciated from what I've seen of people who are very pro-crypto is the increasing amount of intellectualized (not necessary intellectual) arguments for it, the key buzzword being "fiat," and many who believe in its, I don't know, ultimate demise? I know that's not everyone. And I see a lot of artificial FOMO, where big proponents are no longer just saying you are missing an opportunity if you don't invest, but that crypto is the one and only future, buy now, now, NOW! Again, not everybody. But the presence of these people, in itself, doesn't say anything about the nature of crypo, only that there are a lot of blowhards promoting it.
For me, the jury is still out, so I'd like to listen to that podcast. I've otherwise not had a strong desire to buy any.
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@AccidentalMiser - Just for fun - here is a "How to Retire by 2030" Crypto Investment Portfolio that is set up for $500 a week by Invest Answer on youtube.
He worked out several versions of it with different savings amounts, incl a spreadsheet for Australia, Portugal, or the Cayman Islands. I never knew the Cayman Islands were so expensive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgH3_3UQRe8&t=970s
Thanks, @Rosy .
I will take a look. I want to clarify where crypto fits into my overall investing plan. It's a tiny little piece of it. I live on about 30% of my income and have maxed out every tax-advantaged account and still have some cash to stuff somewhere prior to retirement in a couple of years.
I would NEVER recommend crypto to anyone with less that a million dollar portfolio and I would never recommend it to someone who doesn't understand it's risks and pitfalls. In short, I would never recommend it to anyone but the most savvy investor who already has all the bases covered and is sophisticated and liquid enough to handle the drawdowns without losing a minute's sleep.
It's what I do instead of buying collectible baseball cards or guitars.
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Right now, there is no point in cashing out of ETH or BTC because the US dollar is a rapidly depreciating currency.
I always see this sentiment expressed in the die hard crypto circles. "Hey man, I can't afford to be in fiat while I sleep, I'd be losing money!!". We can have a separate argument about USD devaluation and inflation, but honestly, when is the last time the US dollar lost half its value in a couple weeks? I just can't see the argument that you can't convert to dollars because it represents some unacceptable risk when clearly crypto's risk and potential for depreciation is much greater.
That's because you are blinded by the fact that bitcoin is volatile.
The one and only aspect that matters at the end:
Year after year - crypto appreciates in value - significantly. It quadrupled in 2020.
The best performing asset in the last ten years, it outperformed the S&P 500 and it outperformed gold.
Check the charts - the numbers don't lie.
Also, there is a reasonable chance that if I were to sell today I would never be able to buy back in at the price I did.
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Right now, there is no point in cashing out of ETH or BTC because the US dollar is a rapidly depreciating currency.
I always see this sentiment expressed in the die hard crypto circles. "Hey man, I can't afford to be in fiat while I sleep, I'd be losing money!!". We can have a separate argument about USD devaluation and inflation, but honestly, when is the last time the US dollar lost half its value in a couple weeks? I just can't see the argument that you can't convert to dollars because it represents some unacceptable risk when clearly crypto's risk and potential for depreciation is much greater.
That's because you are blinded by the fact that bitcoin is volatile.
The one and only aspect that matters at the end:
Year after year - crypto appreciates in value - significantly. It quadrupled in 2020.
The best performing asset in the last ten years, it outperformed the S&P 500 and it outperformed gold.
Check the charts - the numbers don't lie.
Also, there is a reasonable chance that if I were to sell today I would never be able to buy back in at the price I did.
So if that's all just a black and white fact why did you refer to it as speculative earlier? Not sure I'm the one with the blind spot here.
Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
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Right now, there is no point in cashing out of ETH or BTC because the US dollar is a rapidly depreciating currency.
I always see this sentiment expressed in the die hard crypto circles. "Hey man, I can't afford to be in fiat while I sleep, I'd be losing money!!". We can have a separate argument about USD devaluation and inflation, but honestly, when is the last time the US dollar lost half its value in a couple weeks? I just can't see the argument that you can't convert to dollars because it represents some unacceptable risk when clearly crypto's risk and potential for depreciation is much greater.
That's because you are blinded by the fact that bitcoin is volatile.
The one and only aspect that matters at the end:
Year after year - crypto appreciates in value - significantly. It quadrupled in 2020.
The best performing asset in the last ten years, it outperformed the S&P 500 and it outperformed gold.
Check the charts - the numbers don't lie.
Also, there is a reasonable chance that if I were to sell today I would never be able to buy back in at the price I did.
Why do you think it does that? Is it sustainable? How?
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Right now, there is no point in cashing out of ETH or BTC because the US dollar is a rapidly depreciating currency.
I always see this sentiment expressed in the die hard crypto circles. "Hey man, I can't afford to be in fiat while I sleep, I'd be losing money!!". We can have a separate argument about USD devaluation and inflation, but honestly, when is the last time the US dollar lost half its value in a couple weeks? I just can't see the argument that you can't convert to dollars because it represents some unacceptable risk when clearly crypto's risk and potential for depreciation is much greater.
That's because you are blinded by the fact that bitcoin is volatile.
The one and only aspect that matters at the end:
Year after year - crypto appreciates in value - significantly. It quadrupled in 2020.
The best performing asset in the last ten years, it outperformed the S&P 500 and it outperformed gold.
Check the charts - the numbers don't lie.
Also, there is a reasonable chance that if I were to sell today I would never be able to buy back in at the price I did.
So if that's all just a black and white fact why did you refer to it as speculative earlier? Not sure I'm the one with the blind spot here.
Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
The stock market is speculative too, that's the whole point of buying it. We're speculating that it will go up in value over time.
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The stock market is speculative too, that's the whole point of buying it. We're speculating that it will go up in value over time.
This is some kinda classic “BOTH SIDES”ism. Yes, stubbing one’s toe and catastrophically losing a limb are injuries, but…
Stocks and bonds have cash flow. That means they have an underlying value and can be priced somewhat. While there is some degree of speculation, they’re generally substantially less volatile than cryptocurrencies. Cryptocurrencies do not generate cash flow. That means they are purely speculative. Their volatility is substantial as a result.
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The stock market is speculative too, that's the whole point of buying it. We're speculating that it will go up in value over time.
This is some kinda classic “BOTH SIDES”ism. Yes, stubbing one’s toe and catastrophically losing a limb are injuries, but…
Stocks and bonds have cash flow. That means they have an underlying value and can be priced somewhat. While there is some degree of speculation, they’re generally substantially less volatile than cryptocurrencies. Cryptocurrencies do not generate cash flow. That means they are purely speculative. Their volatility is substantial as a result.
What do you mean? Crypto generates plenty of cash flow if you want it too. I pay all my bills and buy stocks with my crypto yield.
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Yea? Please share the details. One of two things is happening, I’m guessing:
1. It’s a naked Ponzi scheme a la Bitconnect, BlockFi, etc.
2. You’re doing personal loans
In neither case is the asset itself (the cryptocurrency) generating cash flow. USD doesn’t generate cash flow because I can sign up for Lending Club.
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Yea? Please share the details. One of two things is happening, I’m guessing:
1. It’s a naked Ponzi scheme a la Bitconnect, BlockFi, etc.
2. You’re doing personal loans
In neither case is the asset itself (the cryptocurrency) generating cash flow. USD doesn’t generate cash flow because I can sign up for Lending Club.
maybe just type 'defi yield' or similar into youtube and watch one of the million videos about the various ways it can be done. You do realise that just because you haven't personally witnessed something it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, right? Don't you think the people that actually use crypto and defi might know a little bit more about it than you?
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Aka you’re doing lending, exactly as I stated. Clearly I know nothing!
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Aka you’re doing lending, exactly as I stated. Clearly I know nothing!
Rightio champ. I'll just get back to my 'lending' whatever that is LMAO.
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I hear you, OP. I did the same thing recently.
I found it was taking up WAY too much of my bandwidth. Between the volatility and the never-ending trading with no breaks even on weekends, it burrowed into my head and tried to form some sort of "crypto" section of my brainbox. It was like, if I don't check things constantly, I could miss a 10% dip/rocket. It was way too much. Who has time for that?
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I have about 22 ETH, about 70k USD worth at current prices. I put in about 3k during a big dip a few years ago. I don't think that ETH is a meme coin, but I would agree that the returns that I've made are entirely due to dumb luck. I'm relying on dumb luck to tell me when to sell. I'm more in it for the longer haul, though, so I'm not hoping to sell any time soon.
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Don't you think the people that actually use crypto and defi might know a little bit more about it than you?
Sounds reasonable.
I'll just get back to my 'lending' whatever that is LMAO.
Or maybe not.
This is right out of the coindesk FAQ for "How do I make money with DeFi?"
Using Ethereum-based lending apps, as mentioned above, users can generate “passive income” by loaning out their money and generating interest from the loans.
So maybe you are not lending and you are instead doing something more exotic like yield farming, but either way to say "whatever lending is" is not real confidence inspiring that you are really up on the ins and outs of what is happening inside of your totally reliable, no more speculative than bonds, crypto cash cow.
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Aka you’re doing lending, exactly as I stated. Clearly I know nothing!
It appears so.
YIELD - you don't have to lend to earn, you can stake instead like ADA, the coin on the Cardano Network.
...btw, Cardano just became the world's largest cryptocurrency by market capitalization - $65 Billion
FORBES
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ninabambysheva/2021/08/13/cardano-becomes-third-largest-cryptocurrency-overtaking-binance-coin-and-tether/?sh=93814e06f520
Here is just one way/place to stake and earn on the Cardano Network (ADA) at the
The University of Wyoming
https://www.uwyo.edu/uw/news/2021/06/uw-leads-the-pack-in-cryptocurrency.html
The UW Department of Accounting and Finance is a partner in this success. While the lab established the Cardano staking node, the College of Business portfolio management class provided the initial pledge of capital and will use analytics on the stake pool parameters to try to optimize returns.
Cardano was recently listed on the exchange in Japan - not an easy feat.
Here in the US, Cardano is part of the Gray Scale Fund investments.
Staking is where users agree to pledge money to a network in order to help it validate transactions. Lending is where users agree to loan their cryptocurrencies in return for interest payments. Both concepts allow users to earn tokens but the risks and rewards are different.
I am not an expert but there are many other solid coins you can choose to stake.
Like Polkadot, the DOT coin is a good coin and offers good staking opportunities.
Like ETH, which has different requirements, 32 ETH minimum required and a long-term rigid lock-up.
None of this involves lending.
How to stake: I recommend checking out the staking videos by the CoinBureau on youtube or just google it.
DYOR there are fees, rules, minimums, lots of tricks to improve your return or get extra rewards.
There is no reason not to earn an extra 6% to 12% if you already own the coin anyway and don't plan to trade or sell.
Both Kraken and Coinbase exchange make it even easier for you. They offer staking for a few select coins, buy and stake.
Optimized returns are a good thing especially if they pay for your monthly expenses or pay for your tuition or pay off your student debt.
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Aka you’re doing lending, exactly as I stated. Clearly I know nothing!
It appears so.
YIELD - you don't have to lend to earn, you can stake instead like ADA, the coin on the Cardano Network.
...btw, Cardano just became the world's largest cryptocurrency by market capitalization - $65 Billion
FORBES
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ninabambysheva/2021/08/13/cardano-becomes-third-largest-cryptocurrency-overtaking-binance-coin-and-tether/?sh=93814e06f520
Here is just one way/place to stake and earn on the Cardano Network (ADA) at the
The University of Wyoming
https://www.uwyo.edu/uw/news/2021/06/uw-leads-the-pack-in-cryptocurrency.html
The UW Department of Accounting and Finance is a partner in this success. While the lab established the Cardano staking node, the College of Business portfolio management class provided the initial pledge of capital and will use analytics on the stake pool parameters to try to optimize returns.
Cardano was recently listed on the exchange in Japan - not an easy feat.
Here in the US, Cardano is part of the Gray Scale Fund investments.
Staking is where users agree to pledge money to a network in order to help it validate transactions. Lending is where users agree to loan their cryptocurrencies in return for interest payments. Both concepts allow users to earn tokens but the risks and rewards are different.
I am not an expert but there are many other solid coins you can choose to stake.
Like Polkadot, the DOT coin is a good coin and offers good staking opportunities.
Like ETH, which has different requirements, 32 ETH minimum required and a long-term rigid lock-up.
None of this involves lending.
How to stake: I recommend checking out the staking videos by the CoinBureau on youtube or just google it.
DYOR there are fees, rules, minimums, lots of tricks to improve your return or get extra rewards.
There is no reason not to earn an extra 6% to 12% if you already own the coin anyway and don't plan to trade or sell.
Both Kraken and Coinbase exchange make it even easier for you. They offer staking for a few select coins, buy and stake.
Optimized returns are a good thing especially if they pay for your monthly expenses or pay for your tuition or pay off your student debt.
First, I just want to say thank you for having a real discussion about this stuff. It’s refreshing to get a legit response with details that make sense. Thank you!
Staking is definitely different from personal loans. But as I understand it, you are still lending your tokens to someone else—in this case, an entity performing PoS. So I think my point stands in that, as a “asset”, cryptocurrencies do not provide cash flow. Is that fair?
With respect to staking, there is considerable risk in doing this, no? Risk of slashing, risk of price volatility, and risk of entrusting an exchange with your coins—obviating the entire supposed security benefits of cryptocurrencies.
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Don't you think the people that actually use crypto and defi might know a little bit more about it than you?
Sounds reasonable.
I'll just get back to my 'lending' whatever that is LMAO.
Or maybe not.
This is right out of the coindesk FAQ for "How do I make money with DeFi?"
Using Ethereum-based lending apps, as mentioned above, users can generate “passive income” by loaning out their money and generating interest from the loans.
So maybe you are not lending and you are instead doing something more exotic like yield farming, but either way to say "whatever lending is" is not real confidence inspiring that you are really up on the ins and outs of what is happening inside of your totally reliable, no more speculative than bonds, crypto cash cow.
You're absolutely right, I have no idea what I'm doing. None.
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It appears so.
YIELD - you don't have to lend to earn, you can stake instead like ADA, the coin on the Cardano Network.
...btw, Cardano just became the world's largest cryptocurrency by market capitalization - $65 Billion
FORBES
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ninabambysheva/2021/08/13/cardano-becomes-third-largest-cryptocurrency-overtaking-binance-coin-and-tether/?sh=93814e06f520
Here is just one way/place to stake and earn on the Cardano Network (ADA) at the
The University of Wyoming
https://www.uwyo.edu/uw/news/2021/06/uw-leads-the-pack-in-cryptocurrency.html
The UW Department of Accounting and Finance is a partner in this success. While the lab established the Cardano staking node, the College of Business portfolio management class provided the initial pledge of capital and will use analytics on the stake pool parameters to try to optimize returns.
Cardano was recently listed on the exchange in Japan - not an easy feat.
Here in the US, Cardano is part of the Gray Scale Fund investments.
Staking is where users agree to pledge money to a network in order to help it validate transactions. Lending is where users agree to loan their cryptocurrencies in return for interest payments. Both concepts allow users to earn tokens but the risks and rewards are different.
I am not an expert but there are many other solid coins you can choose to stake.
Like Polkadot, the DOT coin is a good coin and offers good staking opportunities.
Like ETH, which has different requirements, 32 ETH minimum required and a long-term rigid lock-up.
None of this involves lending.
How to stake: I recommend checking out the staking videos by the CoinBureau on youtube or just google it.
DYOR there are fees, rules, minimums, lots of tricks to improve your return or get extra rewards.
There is no reason not to earn an extra 6% to 12% if you already own the coin anyway and don't plan to trade or sell.
Both Kraken and Coinbase exchange make it even easier for you. They offer staking for a few select coins, buy and stake.
Optimized returns are a good thing especially if they pay for your monthly expenses or pay for your tuition or pay off your student debt.
Can you explain a scenario where it makes sense that these rates would still be achievable in 5 years or 10 years? The last discussion on here about high return crypto savings accounts concluded with the notion that we are sitting at a (temporary) point in time where due to regulatory practices "the big boys" aren't always able to trade crypto the way they'd like and therefore there is a premium to be paid for various lending strategies. As well, earning 10% through staking suggests a very high level of inefficiency in the transaction processing at this time. In the coming years, crypto's "back end" will either have to dramatically improve its efficiency (thus reducing payouts to miners, stakers, etc) or it will simply fail to scale. And IF there is some way in which these conditions would persist, surely the Wall Street banks and governmental reserves will simply move into this space, vastly out-gunning the individual investor and dropping the premiums paid as a result. It just seems unimaginable that Joe Blow will be able to make 10% on his $1000 "forever" while Citibank and the Fed are getting a fraction of that for their billions.
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Quote from gastro_pod
Staking is definitely different from personal loans. But as I understand it, you are still lending your tokens to someone else—in this case, an entity performing PoS. So I think my point stands in that, as a “asset”, cryptocurrencies do not provide cash flow. Is that fair?
With respect to staking, there is considerable risk in doing this, no? Risk of slashing, risk of price volatility, and risk of entrusting an exchange with your coins—obviating the entire supposed security benefits of cryptocurrencies.
You made me laugh:). The entire world knows crypto is risky and still speculative.
OK, to your questions above - without turning this into part 2 of Crypto staking 101 - the answer is I can make all of that go away for certain coins.
1. If you know anything about crypto you know that there are private wallets - I can use my wallet to stake, the coins never leave my wallet.
2. What price volatility? You stake because you already know that you want to hold this coin. Prices go up too, not just down while you stake, right?
3. Slashing - my, my you do know how to poke don't you:). I had to look up that term because I had forgotten what it means, but yes I am fully aware of that risk because goodness gracious I do my best to understand the risk potential of everything I do in crypto.
It is zero risk with ADA in my opinion, is a rare occurrence in general and I feel confident that the coins/pools I choose are safe.
So there you go - key is to be selective in choosing your coin and your staking pool.
May I ask what risk level you would assign to the staking pool for Ada at the University of Wyoming?
I say it is zero and I bet their smart college students optimize the hell out of the returns:).
Not to mention that in the case of Ada which has the most decentralized network of any coin has a truly dedicated community behind it that has been staking for years - cheering on the slow, rigorous process of a promising but very long term project - would hunt down and scalp any would-be slasher or hacker within the hour.
Charles Hoskinson the founder was one of the originals along with Vitalik Buterin who each built their own network. ETH - Vitalik.
My personal take on staking altcoins
In general - probably not, too much trouble and not enough reward for the potential exposure to risk. This may change as interoperability, security, and ease of transactions overall continue to improve.
For now, I see no point in risking my coins for 6% or entertain the idea of staking Kava at 20% on Kraken.
The better the coin the lower the return - rewards become diluted by too many participants... TMI, sorry.
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'spose I should throw my hat in the ring. Once again, I'm a heretic it seems.
I stayed out of crypto until September of 2020. Because I didn't understand it. Or rather I understood it wrong. I did Economics for my undergrad and using various classical schools of thought and most modern schools of thought, crypto is a weird bunny that doesn't make a whole lot of conventional sense. I've been learning about some the most recent economic schools of thought and have finally wrapped my head around why so much of the classical thinking is deeply flawed. That led to re-evaluate the case for crypto.
For a long time I have had a trivial exposure to gold and silver numismatic coins. They traded basically sideways for more than a decade. Dead money. I decided to sell my coins ($4,430) in proceeds and deploy that 60/40 to BTC/ETH. My total crypto holdings after less than a year are now over $20,000. Some of that is the 3-10 bucks in alt coin you can pick up for watching short promotional videos for alt-coins at Coinbase.
I see BTC as the reserve coin of the crypto space whose only real selling point is the first mover advantage. I see ETH as the foundation of many things in decentralized finance in the near and long term future.
My take - a large allocation is probably wrong for an index investor. A trivial allocation is appropriate for everyone. Not so much you are kneecapped if it tanks, but enough that you materially participate if it goes to the moon.
A good starting amount is $100 at Coinbase. I have a referral code I can share via PM. If you use that and buy $100 or more of crypto at Coinbase, you and I both will be credited $10 worth of BTC. This also lets you watch the promotional videos to earn more free crypto. I have collected 83.91 worth of cost basis from these videos and 195.18 in mark to market. If you buy just $100 thats a really good return. And its kind of fun.
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It appears so.
YIELD - you don't have to lend to earn, you can stake instead like ADA, the coin on the Cardano Network.
...btw, Cardano just became the world's largest cryptocurrency by market capitalization - $65 Billion
FORBES
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ninabambysheva/2021/08/13/cardano-becomes-third-largest-cryptocurrency-overtaking-binance-coin-and-tether/?sh=93814e06f520
Here is just one way/place to stake and earn on the Cardano Network (ADA) at the
The University of Wyoming
https://www.uwyo.edu/uw/news/2021/06/uw-leads-the-pack-in-cryptocurrency.html
The UW Department of Accounting and Finance is a partner in this success. While the lab established the Cardano staking node, the College of Business portfolio management class provided the initial pledge of capital and will use analytics on the stake pool parameters to try to optimize returns.
Cardano was recently listed on the exchange in Japan - not an easy feat.
Here in the US, Cardano is part of the Gray Scale Fund investments.
Staking is where users agree to pledge money to a network in order to help it validate transactions. Lending is where users agree to loan their cryptocurrencies in return for interest payments. Both concepts allow users to earn tokens but the risks and rewards are different.
I am not an expert but there are many other solid coins you can choose to stake.
Like Polkadot, the DOT coin is a good coin and offers good staking opportunities.
Like ETH, which has different requirements, 32 ETH minimum required and a long-term rigid lock-up.
None of this involves lending.
How to stake: I recommend checking out the staking videos by the CoinBureau on youtube or just google it.
DYOR there are fees, rules, minimums, lots of tricks to improve your return or get extra rewards.
There is no reason not to earn an extra 6% to 12% if you already own the coin anyway and don't plan to trade or sell.
Both Kraken and Coinbase exchange make it even easier for you. They offer staking for a few select coins, buy and stake.
Optimized returns are a good thing especially if they pay for your monthly expenses or pay for your tuition or pay off your student debt.
Can you explain a scenario where it makes sense that these rates would still be achievable in 5 years or 10 years? The last discussion on here about high return crypto savings accounts concluded with the notion that we are sitting at a (temporary) point in time where due to regulatory practices "the big boys" aren't always able to trade crypto the way they'd like and therefore there is a premium to be paid for various lending strategies. As well, earning 10% through staking suggests a very high level of inefficiency in the transaction processing at this time. In the coming years, crypto's "back end" will either have to dramatically improve its efficiency (thus reducing payouts to miners, stakers, etc) or it will simply fail to scale. And IF there is some way in which these conditions would persist, surely the Wall Street banks and governmental reserves will simply move into this space, vastly out-gunning the individual investor and dropping the premiums paid as a result. It just seems unimaginable that Joe Blow will be able to make 10% on his $1000 "forever" while Citibank and the Fed are getting a fraction of that for their billions.
This is also a good point. I think often, because of the many layers of abstraction and convoluted techno-malarkey, people forget that, at the end of the day, the money they’re earning enters the system from somewhere. Very rarely, in my experience, do crypto enthusiasts understand where that money is coming from—it just appears via some complex web of techno-magic.
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It appears so.
YIELD - you don't have to lend to earn, you can stake instead like ADA, the coin on the Cardano Network.
...btw, Cardano just became the world's largest cryptocurrency by market capitalization - $65 Billion
FORBES
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ninabambysheva/2021/08/13/cardano-becomes-third-largest-cryptocurrency-overtaking-binance-coin-and-tether/?sh=93814e06f520
Here is just one way/place to stake and earn on the Cardano Network (ADA) at the
The University of Wyoming
https://www.uwyo.edu/uw/news/2021/06/uw-leads-the-pack-in-cryptocurrency.html
The UW Department of Accounting and Finance is a partner in this success. While the lab established the Cardano staking node, the College of Business portfolio management class provided the initial pledge of capital and will use analytics on the stake pool parameters to try to optimize returns.
Cardano was recently listed on the exchange in Japan - not an easy feat.
Here in the US, Cardano is part of the Gray Scale Fund investments.
Staking is where users agree to pledge money to a network in order to help it validate transactions. Lending is where users agree to loan their cryptocurrencies in return for interest payments. Both concepts allow users to earn tokens but the risks and rewards are different.
I am not an expert but there are many other solid coins you can choose to stake.
Like Polkadot, the DOT coin is a good coin and offers good staking opportunities.
Like ETH, which has different requirements, 32 ETH minimum required and a long-term rigid lock-up.
None of this involves lending.
How to stake: I recommend checking out the staking videos by the CoinBureau on youtube or just google it.
DYOR there are fees, rules, minimums, lots of tricks to improve your return or get extra rewards.
There is no reason not to earn an extra 6% to 12% if you already own the coin anyway and don't plan to trade or sell.
Both Kraken and Coinbase exchange make it even easier for you. They offer staking for a few select coins, buy and stake.
Optimized returns are a good thing especially if they pay for your monthly expenses or pay for your tuition or pay off your student debt.
Can you explain a scenario where it makes sense that these rates would still be achievable in 5 years or 10 years? The last discussion on here about high return crypto savings accounts concluded with the notion that we are sitting at a (temporary) point in time where due to regulatory practices "the big boys" aren't always able to trade crypto the way they'd like and therefore there is a premium to be paid for various lending strategies. As well, earning 10% through staking suggests a very high level of inefficiency in the transaction processing at this time. In the coming years, crypto's "back end" will either have to dramatically improve its efficiency (thus reducing payouts to miners, stakers, etc) or it will simply fail to scale. And IF there is some way in which these conditions would persist, surely the Wall Street banks and governmental reserves will simply move into this space, vastly out-gunning the individual investor and dropping the premiums paid as a result. It just seems unimaginable that Joe Blow will be able to make 10% on his $1000 "forever" while Citibank and the Fed are getting a fraction of that for their billions.
You can see my views about staking in the post above - but the short answer is NO.
My WAG
Staking might well survive intact due to its popularity. It has literally become a lifeline for people who have become dependent on the regular income from staking and lending.
Inviting institutions to play in the same sandbox has changed the game - for good or bad, I cannot tell.
According to data provided by Pooltool, a Cardano data aggregating tool, ADA’s total staked value is $42.93 billion, accounting for 71.32% of the $60.2 billion in supply.
The milestone follows increased exposure of Cardano staking by various platforms. For instance, iMining, a Canadian publicly-traded company, recently included Cardano to its list of supported assets for its staking services. Through the addition, iMining seeks to expose Cardano to institutional investors.
I doubt that interfering with staking is very high on the SEC list of what they wish to ban at the direction of the banking industry aka Fed.
I am expecting them to clean house with some serious violators and shenanigans first. That takes time and people and resources.
The federal govt's emphasis is on tax evasion and filling the coffers with crypto tax.
For lending the writing is on the wall, it could be all over by this time next year.
Lending is offending the banking industry no doubt - it will sort itself out. You have to remember that crypto isn't UScentric but global.
It took me a while to realize that the hedge funds were the cause of the crypto lending shenanigans and there were many houses made of cards.
The banks have accumulated lots of bit and eth - they are ready to move on with their own game plan.
The hedgie borrowing and lending shenanigans will continue 24/7.
The only difference, it will continue with the blessings of the banks and the FED. They will not give up their new toy and cash cow.
Imagine that before crypto transactions would take days and weeks and stop over the weekend and stop during the holidays around the world.
Now money never stops flowing or working for you.
Thanks crypto:).
There are other opportunities to do well in crypto with 200% to a 5000% that do not involve staking and lending.
High Risk - High Reward, now those are games worth playing if you enjoy gambling and have the cash to play, win or lose without blinking.
Beyond that - just look at the NFT craze - hundreds of thousands of dollars changing hands.
There are new opportunities to make bank every day in crypto so I am not hung up on what might happen with staking or lending/borrowing.
The longer you hang out in the community the easier it becomes to spot opportunities even with a simple trade.
If nothing else you can always earn bitcoin rewards on your crypto credit card.
Visa and crypto and blockchain singing Kumbaya:).
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You can see my views about staking in the post above - but the short answer is NO.
My WAG
Staking might well survive intact due to its popularity. It has literally become a lifeline for people who have become dependent on the regular income from staking and lending.
Inviting institutions to play in the same sandbox has changed the game - for good or bad, I cannot tell.
There are other opportunities to do well in crypto with 200% to a 5000% that do not involve staking and lending.
High Risk - High Reward, now those are games worth playing if you enjoy gambling and have the cash to play, win or lose without blinking.
Beyond that - just look at the NFT craze - hundreds of thousands of dollars changing hands.
There are new opportunities to make bank every day in crypto so I am not hung up on what might happen with staking or lending/borrowing.
The longer you hang out in the community the easier it becomes to spot opportunities even with a simple trade.
If nothing else you can always earn bitcoin rewards on your crypto credit card.
Visa and crypto and blockchain singing Kumbaya:).
You certainly are RosyOnCrypto, can't deny that. But I still don't understand a comment like "staking might survive due to its popularity, it has become a lifeline for people"... well sure, why wouldn't people enjoy free money? That doesn't mean it is sustainable. Just like earlier when you quoted the market cap of Cardano. How is that actually proof of anything? Sports gambling is a $3T industry. Does that make it an asset class we should consider along with stocks and bonds?
Let's reframe the discussion. Right now I'm an idiot who isn't playing crypto (for the record, I wrote a crypto trading program from scratch 3 years ago and was trading BTC and ETH 24/7 guided by my own algorithms, so it's not like I've never heard of the internet and I'm just some nutball crank who thinks tech is lame) and you guys are the geniuses just raking in the cash. Fine. Ok, so each year that goes by the crypto game just becomes more and more mainstream. Banks, financial planners, governments - everybody - eventually gets on board, because why wouldn't they? Now every company 401k is 50% ETH and 50% MuskCoin. Every coffee and donut are bought with BTC. Yay, cryptopia! BUT AT SOME POINT the whole freaking world can't be making free money off of the money itself. That is literally a divide by zero wormhole nonsense idea. Until you crypto advocates acknowledge that as a point on the horizon it just seems like you are blinded by euphoria or being intentionally disingenuous.
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Well then this should cheer you up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPBR3mn6wKU
(The SEC is coming for crypto in America)
Edited to add that I have no idea how you read all this into my answer - I suggest you re-read my answers.
For the record - I don't stake, I don't borrow or lend, and never have.
I am simply curious about crypto. If I come across something that works for me, great, I will consider it.
I own BTC and ETH, a smidgen of altcoins.
We are all just speculating or looking on from the sidelines,
some can't wait for crypto to crash and others can't wait for crypto to take over the world.
Burning question: Are you salty because you had the opportunity to load up bags of ETH or whatever and didn't?:)
You can re-frame the questions all you want but the bottom line is this:
That supposed zero value you all want to assign to crypto has turned into real REAL money.
The banks understand that ETH is programmable money and BTC is a store of value.
Hell, they are falling all over themselves offering custodial services for their 'wealthy clients'.
If you insist on saying that crypto has no value
then you are essentially saying that banks are now custodians of ..... a zero value "investments".
Let's not be obtuse here - REAL Money from REAL Banks is flowing into crypto.
THAT is why the banks have LOBBIED for months on end - their deposits are diminishing and flowing right into crypto.
So what did they do in the US? Everything they can to shut down crypto - lobby, buy Janet Yellen...
Have you forgotten that only two months ago JPMorgan's CEO threatened to fire any employee who held crypto?
At the same time, they were secretly buying crypto and had been buying long before that.
They even have their own coin - wth do you say to that?
The banks and the SEC are not stupid, they have been preparing for a long time.
They don't deal in idealism, they only want money and power.
The FED is keen on taking down stable coins and protecting the coming FED coin.
There is an easy way out - Crypto firm Circle just applied for a banking license.
https://www.americanbanker.com/news/crypto-firm-circle-eyes-bank-charter-to-bolster-stablecoin-venture
BTC is safe from the SEC since it has been declared "not a security".
ETH should be safe too from what I've seen so far.
Everything else from exchange dealings to every altcoin in existence (thousands) will be scrutinized.
Could be devastating, could lead to a stronger defi, could lead to criminalization, could lead to a mass exodus out of the US for tech innovation, could be a nothing burger - everything is possible.
Pass the popcorn ...
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Banks, financial planners, governments - everybody - eventually gets on board, because why wouldn't they? Now every company 401k is 50% ETH and 50% MuskCoin. Every coffee and donut are bought with BTC. Yay, cryptopia! BUT AT SOME POINT the whole freaking world can't be making free money off of the money itself. That is literally a divide by zero wormhole nonsense idea. Until you crypto advocates acknowledge that as a point on the horizon it just seems like you are blinded by euphoria or being intentionally disingenuous.
The whole premise of crypto is based on decentralization and cutting out the middle man. There are so many companies that are middle-men in every industry and consume fees to connect us even though they can be and probably will be made obsolete by the likes of Ethereum and smart contracts. If we go with the idea that Blockchain projects like Ethereum and Cardano will dominate the future then they essentially have value simply because they can be the medium of exchange between two parties without a central broker consuming fees in-between. Fees are collected by all participants in the network who act to validate the transaction based on the consensus algorithm.
Banking is one of the biggest examples and probably one of the first industries to be disrupted by crypto and blockchain.
A bank connects me (as the lender) and you (as the borrower). I deposit money into the bank's savings account and you take a loan from the bank. The bank charges a high interest rate to lend you the money and gives me peanuts for the yield. DeFi will and currently is disrupting this. There are platforms like Curve and Aave which allow lending / earning yields on stable coins that are much higher than any bank currently out there. The only barrier is the complexity involved for the average joe to understand where to start in order to earn the yields.
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Banks, financial planners, governments - everybody - eventually gets on board, because why wouldn't they? Now every company 401k is 50% ETH and 50% MuskCoin. Every coffee and donut are bought with BTC. Yay, cryptopia! BUT AT SOME POINT the whole freaking world can't be making free money off of the money itself. That is literally a divide by zero wormhole nonsense idea. Until you crypto advocates acknowledge that as a point on the horizon it just seems like you are blinded by euphoria or being intentionally disingenuous.
The whole premise of crypto is based on decentralization and cutting out the middle man. There are so many companies that are middle-men in every industry and consume fees to connect us even though they can be and probably will be made obsolete by the likes of Ethereum and smart contracts. If we go with the idea that Blockchain projects like Ethereum and Cardano will dominate the future then they essentially have value simply because they can be the medium of exchange between two parties without a central broker consuming fees in-between. Fees are collected by all participants in the network who act to validate the transaction based on the consensus algorithm.
Banking is one of the biggest examples and probably one of the first industries to be disrupted by crypto and blockchain.
A bank connects me (as the lender) and you (as the borrower). I deposit money into the bank's savings account and you take a loan from the bank. The bank charges a high interest rate to lend you the money and gives me peanuts for the yield. DeFi will and currently is disrupting this. There are platforms like Curve and Aave which allow lending / earning yields on stable coins that are much higher than any bank currently out there. The only barrier is the complexity involved for the average joe to understand where to start in order to earn the yields.
@CrankAddict -
Actually @forgerator - this quote is from CrankAddict.
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Sorry I must have messed up during editing
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Count me amongst the group who have changed their minds and am positive on blockchains. My portfolio is now 80% VTSAX and 20% Bitcoin/Ether.
I've put a couple hundred hours into studying the tech this summer, and I see blockchain technology as being about as profound of a shift as the internet was 25 years ago. It adds real value in so many ways...
- Much better monetary system than government backed currencies.
- Will almost certainly disrupt the banking system in ways that are great for individuals.
- I could see it distrupting so many industries...for example, in a few years, why would a musician or sporting event use ticketmaster...they can just sell 10,000 NFT's of tickets, and concert goers could simply show proof that they own an NFT ticket at the gate. There are thousands of examples like this...I see a whole new economy forming that is so much more efficient.
I'll end with this clip from The Today Show in 1994, where Katie Couric and others are trying to make sense of what the hell the internet is...I feel this is where the world is right now on crypto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlJku_CSyNg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlJku_CSyNg)
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Welcome to the Club aceyou
I still like this headline from the WSJ - JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon:
I 'Regret' Calling Bitcoin a Fraud
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Investing in cryptocurrencies because you like the idea of the blockchain is miguided.
Sure, if you could have invested in TCP/IP when the Internet was taking off, you'd be a squillionare. But you can't invest in the underlying technology of the Internet, just like you can't invest directly in the blockchain. People tried jumping into any invesntment that was related to the Internet and the vast majority of them went belly up. So it will be with cryptos.
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I'm glad the experts are here to set us all straight.
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Investing in cryptocurrencies because you like the idea of the blockchain is miguided.
Sure, if you could have invested in TCP/IP when the Internet was taking off, you'd be a squillionare. But you can't invest in the underlying technology of the Internet, just like you can't invest directly in the blockchain. People tried jumping into any invesntment that was related to the Internet and the vast majority of them went belly up. So it will be with cryptos.
People often ask me "what if blockchain is the future of finance and the 99% of people in the world who do not own crypto will someday have to use the technology?"
My response is, "they would probably choose to create a new cryptocurrency rather than pay the incumbent owners of Bitcoin, etc. tens of thousands of dollars for their coins. It now costs less to launch an entirely new cryptocurrency than it costs to buy a single Bitcoin, and that is one reason why there are thousands of cryptocurrencies."
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Count me amongst the group who have changed their minds and am positive on blockchains. My portfolio is now 80% VTSAX and 20% Bitcoin/Ether.
I've put a couple hundred hours into studying the tech this summer, and I see blockchain technology as being about as profound of a shift as the internet was 25 years ago. It adds real value in so many ways...
- Much better monetary system than government backed currencies.
Better how?
- Will almost certainly disrupt the banking system in ways that are great for individuals.
Great for individuals how? Without FDIC insurance, consumer protections, or customer support, I think it’s worse for the individual in many respects.
- I could see it distrupting so many industries...for example, in a few years, why would a musician or sporting event use ticketmaster...they can just sell 10,000 NFT's of tickets, and concert goers could simply show proof that they own an NFT ticket at the gate. There are thousands of examples like this...I see a whole new economy forming that is so much more efficient.
Ticketmaster doesn’t suck because they don’t use blockchain… The process isn’t crappy because of any technological problems, and it can’t be solved by layering in a slow database. There are precisely 0 use-cases of blockchain that involve legal non-digital things (e.g., concert venues) that make any sense. This is self-evident if you think about the single problem blockchain sought—and introduced much inefficiency—to solve: transacting between untrusted parties. This is useful for buying drugs on the internet. It’s necessarily exclusively worse than a centralized database if you’re dealing with legal entities.
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I personally see a lot of potential in ETH replacing the middle- and back-office work associated with Mutual Funds.
One thing people probably don't realize is how large the industry is (due to mandatory 401k-like schemes, not just in the US), and how much waste there is. So much so, the financial services industry is often referred to as a parasite on the economy.
Whether it's active or passive trading, there is a lot of buying and selling going on, all of which needs to be reconciled with counter-parties and custody/accounting. The systems used are severely outdated, formats used differ per party leading to manual exception checking. On top of that, everyone is trading not just US assets, but multi-currency assets requiring all sorts of facilitation such as sub-custodian bank accounts, repatriation FX trades, dummy FX trades, etcetera. Naturally, all this hassle results in time-consuming processes (trades settle on T+3), and worse, mismatches. Money wired incorrectly, the amount of money being incorrect, counter-parties not having what they promised, or miss-instructed trades; it's a mess.
Replacing all this with smart contracts on blockchain technology and utilizing a universal trading currency would boost productivity significantly anywhere.
Why ETH? Because the key players in the financial industry have tried to come up with their own initiatives but no one is willing to adopt the competitor's system. It's one of the reasons why finance is such a mess to begin with. Moreover, it's an extremely conservative industry over-analyzing everything and by the time a decision is made we're 10 or 15 years further down the road (again, one of the reasons why some still use software developed in the '80s..). Simply put; the financial industry will likely look at existing solutions that's not owned by their competitor and has all the functionality required. I am not saying ETH is a sure thing, but from what I have seen, it ticks a lot of boxes, hence I've allocated about 2.5% of my NW to ETH.
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While there certainly are inefficiencies and plenty of issues worthy of criticism in banking, the source of the problem is rarely technological. And where there are technological problems, “use blockchain” is never going to be the solution.
I understand the desire to improve banking. And I’m hopeful that there are things in the pipeline (e.g., CBDC’s helping to lower the burden of opening bank accounts). But I don’t see any reason to believe cryptocurrencies solve any problems you’ve described. Cars pollute, cause traffic jams and accidents frequently resulting in death, and are a major expense for most of their operators. But suggesting the fix is to just switch to airplanes because they’re safer, faster, and rarely have jams… that would largely be misunderstanding the problem at hand. Airplanes are probably not the solution to these problems—real though the problems are.
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Just to clarify, I am not talking about retail banking.
Imagine processing a simple corporate action. Company A buys Company B, will go on as Company A (thereby owners of Company B stock will see their holding converted to shares of company A.
This will be reflected in accounting by selling all Company B positions, and booking a buy trade the equivalent of the corresponding shares in Company A (which is manually calculated per trade). If on the accounting system in question the security information for company A (e.g. ISIN) is not yet set up, they'll have to set this up first in order to book the trade. This is manually maintained per bank, per system. Usually it involves pulling security information from a Bloomberg terminal.
I can imagine the above process being replaced by blockchain technology, where the corporate action is executed for all holders of the security at once. And this is just one of many use cases in financial services.
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I personally see a lot of potential in ETH replacing the middle- and back-office work associated with Mutual Funds.
One thing people probably don't realize is how large the industry is (due to mandatory 401k-like schemes, not just in the US), and how much waste there is. So much so, the financial services industry is often referred to as a parasite on the economy.
Whether it's active or passive trading, there is a lot of buying and selling going on, all of which needs to be reconciled with counter-parties and custody/accounting. The systems used are severely outdated, formats used differ per party leading to manual exception checking. On top of that, everyone is trading not just US assets, but multi-currency assets requiring all sorts of facilitation such as sub-custodian bank accounts, repatriation FX trades, dummy FX trades, etcetera. Naturally, all this hassle results in time-consuming processes (trades settle on T+3), and worse, mismatches. Money wired incorrectly, the amount of money being incorrect, counter-parties not having what they promised, or miss-instructed trades; it's a mess.
Replacing all this with smart contracts on blockchain technology and utilizing a universal trading currency would boost productivity significantly anywhere.
Why ETH? Because the key players in the financial industry have tried to come up with their own initiatives but no one is willing to adopt the competitor's system. It's one of the reasons why finance is such a mess to begin with. Moreover, it's an extremely conservative industry over-analyzing everything and by the time a decision is made we're 10 or 15 years further down the road (again, one of the reasons why some still use software developed in the '80s..). Simply put; the financial industry will likely look at existing solutions that's not owned by their competitor and has all the functionality required. I am not saying ETH is a sure thing, but from what I have seen, it ticks a lot of boxes, hence I've allocated about 2.5% of my NW to ETH.
Excellent points. I think this is exactly why banks like Goldman Sachs, Mellon and JPMorgan began filling their coffers with both BTC and ETH. One as an inflation hedge and store of value and the other because change is long overdue and they are absorbing and integrating the tech in hopes that all will continue as if nothing at all is rotten in the bankster empires.
Banks like to point to drug money and criminals using crypto. I say it is easier to follow a transparent public ledger to recover funds than slapping the wrist of international banksters like the endless criminal shenanigans of JP Morgan.
Ex-JPMorgan metals traders must face racketeering charges
https://www.reuters.com › legal › transactional › ex-jpmor...
6 days ago — Chang also allowed the other eleven charges to stand, including market manipulation, spoofing, conspiracy, and commodities and wire fraud. He ...
JPMorgan to pay $920 million for manipulating precious ...
https://www.reuters.com › jp-morgan-spoofing-penalty
Sep 29, 2020 — JPMorgan Chase & Co has agreed to pay more than $920 million and ... the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) said on Tuesday, ...
Inside the JPMorgan Trading Desk the US Called a Crime Ring
https://www.bloomberg.com › news › articles › inside-t...
Sep 28, 2020 — The U.S. says the precious metals desk at JPMorgan was a ... with the Justice Department and U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission.
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Just to clarify, I am not talking about retail banking.
Imagine processing a simple corporate action. Company A buys Company B, will go on as Company A (thereby owners of Company B stock will see their holding converted to shares of company A.
This will be reflected in accounting by selling all Company B positions, and booking a buy trade the equivalent of the corresponding shares in Company A (which is manually calculated per trade). If on the accounting system in question the security information for company A (e.g. ISIN) is not yet set up, they'll have to set this up first in order to book the trade. This is manually maintained per bank, per system. Usually it involves pulling security information from a Bloomberg terminal.
I can imagine the above process being replaced by blockchain technology, where the corporate action is executed for all holders of the security at once. And this is just one of many use cases in financial services.
Imagine transferring hundreds of millions of dollars through a sketchy, uninsured, and easily-hacked crypto exchange website just to avoid a handful of routine accounting steps.
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Just to clarify, I am not talking about retail banking.
Imagine processing a simple corporate action. Company A buys Company B, will go on as Company A (thereby owners of Company B stock will see their holding converted to shares of company A.
This will be reflected in accounting by selling all Company B positions, and booking a buy trade the equivalent of the corresponding shares in Company A (which is manually calculated per trade). If on the accounting system in question the security information for company A (e.g. ISIN) is not yet set up, they'll have to set this up first in order to book the trade. This is manually maintained per bank, per system. Usually it involves pulling security information from a Bloomberg terminal.
I can imagine the above process being replaced by blockchain technology, where the corporate action is executed for all holders of the security at once. And this is just one of many use cases in financial services.
Imagine transferring hundreds of millions of dollars through a sketchy, uninsured, and easily-hacked crypto exchange website just to avoid a handful of routine accounting steps.
You don't have to imagine the transferring of HUNDREDS of millions of dollars in crypto - it has been trading in BILLIONS for some time.
In fact, the actual market cap has reached past two trillion.
Crypto is no back office, dark web illegal trading platform nor are exchanges as easily hacked as you believe.
I happen to trade on a heavily regulated platform in the US, the only one approved in the State of New York, a company that I bet will soon be traded on the exchange along with Coinbase and FTX as they cooperate with the SEC, the FED and have a sufficient number of banks/financial institutions who hold an interest in their operations.
Banks have proven time and again that they are not trustworthy, do not act in the best interests of their clients, close accounts at will and had absolutely no shame in paying millions in bonuses to their corporate houligans paid for by the bailout.
Why do you think the banks hate crypto so much? Millions of dollars are leaving their balance sheet every day and flowing into crypto.
This goes way beyond avoiding banking steps or the failure of banks to upgrade their tech over the course of decades.
People want transactions that benefit them - people want interest on their cash - people want change.
We'll see what happens by next year. Crypto is global, each country will find their own solutions, adaptions or regulate crypto out of existence.
Crypto isn't just about disrupting banking................
I'm looking forward to seeing it develop and expand into every industry.
It will be a wild ride - starting with the NFT bubble. I think the gaming industry will explode exponentially, sports, art, entertainment.
Crypto vs banking in the US - let's just hope it doesn't all end up exactly like this:
FATF Crypto Proposals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZyTDJPnp14
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You don't have to imagine the transferring of HUNDREDS of millions of dollars in crypto - it has been trading in BILLIONS for some time.
In fact, the actual market cap has reached past two trillion.
Crypto is no back office, dark web illegal trading platform nor are exchanges as easily hacked as you believe.
Here's a transferring of hundred of millions of dollars that I bet somebody wishes was only in their imagination.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2021/08/10/more-than-600-million-stolen-in-ethereum-and-other-cryptocurrencies-marking-one-of-cryptos-biggest-hacks-ever
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You don't have to imagine the transferring of HUNDREDS of millions of dollars in crypto - it has been trading in BILLIONS for some time.
In fact, the actual market cap has reached past two trillion.
Crypto is no back office, dark web illegal trading platform nor are exchanges as easily hacked as you believe.
Here's a transferring of hundred of millions of dollars that I bet somebody wishes was only in their imagination.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2021/08/10/more-than-600-million-stolen-in-ethereum-and-other-cryptocurrencies-marking-one-of-cryptos-biggest-hacks-ever
Here is the return of those six hundred million dollars by the white hat hacker. He received a bounty and a job offer.
https://forbesalert.com/news/business/hacker-behind-600-million-crypto-heist-returns-final-slice-of-stolen-funds/
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Here is the return of those six hundred million dollars by the white hat hacker. He received a bounty and a job offer.
Oh, well, that's ok then.
Your greed/euphoria blinds you to the obvious. It's a Mickey Mouse unregulated platform. It will never be taken seriously by serious governments and corporations.
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Here is the return of those six hundred million dollars by the white hat hacker. He received a bounty and a job offer.
Oh, well, that's ok then.
Your greed/euphoria blinds you to the obvious. It's a Mickey Mouse unregulated platform. It will never be taken seriously by serious governments and corporations.
Oh, well, it is ok then to let this Media article stand as if that 600 million was stolen and never returned. Confirmation bias, right?
I can't say I care for your tone or insinuations.
I'm perfectly happy to let your expert crypto assessment of this platform stand since I don't know anything about this platform.
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If I accidentally doxxed myself while trying to get away with the largest crypto heist ever (and many of the tokens had been frozen anyway), I would also pretend to be a white hat and return the funds:
https://www.rekt.news/polynetwork-rekt/
Yup, my thoughts exactly.
Thanks for finding this detailed article.
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Defi is the wild wild west. It is full of hacks and scams and also mind boggling returns. Couldn't care less if governments and corporations take it seriously, honestly the less they know and think about it the better. Defi is for the people. The reason the returns can be so high is because we've cut out all these middlemen, it's amazing how much money you can make when there isn't a bank sitting in the middle making $50B profit a year or governments bogging it all down with regulation and red tape.
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Oh come on. The "money" flowing needs to be generated through commerce before middlemen can take a cut of it. Crypto is 99% people speculating, there's no rivers of generated value being created for middlemen to be clipping their tickets.
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Oh come on. The "money" flowing needs to be generated through commerce before middlemen can take a cut of it. Crypto is 99% people speculating, there's no rivers of generated value being created for middlemen to be clipping their tickets.
I'm amazed how people who don't invest in crypto seem to know the most about it. Really astonishing.
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Here is the return of those six hundred million dollars by the white hat hacker. He received a bounty and a job offer.
https://forbesalert.com/news/business/hacker-behind-600-million-crypto-heist-returns-final-slice-of-stolen-funds/
I mean... the guy basically blackmailed them for half a million and is free of any lawsuits. For you that means the hack did not actually happen and thus "exchanges are not as easily hacked" ?
Also the page you linked to literally says "Last week, Japanese crypto exchange Liquid said it was hit by a cyberattack that saw hackers make off with a reported $97 million worth of digital coins.".
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Oh come on. The "money" flowing needs to be generated through commerce before middlemen can take a cut of it. Crypto is 99% people speculating, there's no rivers of generated value being created for middlemen to be clipping their tickets.
I'm amazed how people who don't invest in crypto seem to know the most about it. Really astonishing.
Famously, this is why we only trust journalists to report on businesses they’re deeply invested in.
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Here is the return of those six hundred million dollars by the white hat hacker. He received a bounty and a job offer.
https://forbesalert.com/news/business/hacker-behind-600-million-crypto-heist-returns-final-slice-of-stolen-funds/
I mean... the guy basically blackmailed them for half a million and is free of any lawsuits. For you that means the hack did not actually happen and thus "exchanges are not as easily hacked" ?
Also the page you linked to literally says "Last week, Japanese crypto exchange Liquid said it was hit by a cyberattack that saw hackers make off with a reported $97 million worth of digital coins.".
Sheesh - I posted an update to the media link that you posted - why is that a problem? Don't you want to know the whole story?
What it means is that everyone got their money back.
I've already given my opinion - I agree with less4success:
If I accidentally doxxed myself while trying to get away with the largest crypto heist ever (and many of the tokens had been frozen anyway), I would also pretend to be a white hat and return the funds:
https://www.rekt.news/polynetwork-rekt/
Yup, my thoughts exactly.
Thanks for finding this detailed article.