Author Topic: How to hedge against a US default  (Read 2836 times)

dividendman

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How to hedge against a US default
« on: April 27, 2023, 09:00:20 AM »
I think our politicians are stupid/stubborn enough to let the US default. What would happen? How would one hedge against this?

ChpBstrd

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2023, 11:40:00 AM »
To identify hedges, maybe start by extrapolating the trends that happened after the August 2011 S&P downgrade of the United States' debt.

Per Wikipedia, the consequences included:

> 5-7% one-day fall in stock prices. About an 11% fall over the span of 2 weeks around the downgrade.
> Treasury bonds (the subject of the downgrade) and the USD both rallied in a flight to safety. TLT rose over 20% between July and September.
> Gold, as measured by GLD, rose 27% between 7/1/11 and 8/22/11, before entering a falling trend. To profit, you'd have had to sell into exactly the outcome you feared rather than holding for several months! Also, the peaks and valleys were narrow, so a gain of 5-10% is all a mere mortal could have expected out of gold.
> European stocks, already precarious due to their own debt crisis, fell harder than US stocks.

And this was the response to a small downgrade by just one out of three ratings agencies, not even an actual default. In the event of an actual default, I'm not sure if the treasuries would do as well as they did in 2011. So I'd suggest gold or put options on stock indices as the best way to hedge.

A safe but bearish portfolio might look like a bunch of FDIC-insured cash deposits plus protective puts securing the value of any stocks, plus a small allocation to IAU or GLD. For the small gold allocation, I like the idea of using call options. Gold is not particularly volatile, and options are priced on past volatility, so if you think the price of gold is going to become more variable in the future, calls are a bargain because they don't price in this macro information. Long calls also offer a defined maximum loss, which helps with the budgeting aspect.

Long term, it's not clear what would happen in the event of a US default. Certainly all three ratings agencies would have to downgrade the US just to keep their credibility. More importantly, the US dollar would face lots more competition as the global reserve currency. If the USD ceased to be the global hegemon, American standards of "middle class" living would start to resemble European or Mexican or Southeast Asian standards because the cost of imports would no longer be subsidized by a currency everyone needs. If US financial markets lost their foundational asset - guaranteed risk-free treasuries - financial trade could move overseas. London is experiencing this now, due to a similar political miscalculation by their fools-in-charge.

Currently, Congressional Republicans are calculating that Biden won't accept the risk of a severe recession during his term in office, because voters will blame him for it and elect a Republican president in 2024. Thus they're trying to repeal all of Biden's legislative agenda of the past 2 years through extortion. Biden, on the other hand, probably sees that a recession is inevitable anyway, and would be happy to pin the blame elsewhere while beating up the Republican party from the bully pulpit for not doing the constitutionally-mandated job of Congress. So yes, all the ingredients are in place for an economically destructive standoff and own-goal.

dividendman

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2023, 09:14:04 AM »
Thanks for the reply!

I think Treasuries will probably rally in the case of an actual "default" because the government would still have enough money coming in to pay that interest, and my guess is they'd prioritize that the highest, but I could be wrong. It would be crazy if they actually stopped debt interest payments and my poor 6 month T-Bills don't mature! I see the risk in the crazy interest spreads between 4 week and 8 week T-Bills though so somebody thinks it can happen.

Yeah, I figured puts on stocks would be the way to hedge.

Also with today's inflation numbers it looks like the fed is going to bump up rates again so maybe having some puts generally wouldn't be terrible. Hrm.

elysianfields

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2023, 07:47:22 AM »
I agree almost completely with @ChpBstrd 's analysis of the financials, and warn @dividendman  and others that obtaining insurance - buying puts on stocks - will cost dearly.  Perhaps not as dearly as the long-term cost of an actual default...

On the political side, I think Biden and the Democrats have the stronger hand to play, and ultimately the President could simply tell Congress: Make My Day, No Default, and issue more bonds.  He has both the political advantage and legal arguments to do so (if there's appetite for hearing these, let's take that discussion to Off Topic - I started a thread here: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/how-will-the-game-of-chicken-over-america's-debt-limit-play-out/).

Furthermore, if Biden gives in to extortion now, he'll have to give in to extortion again next year when the debt limit is reached again.

Edited to correct a batsignal and to link to the Off Topic thread.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 08:03:07 AM by elysianfields »

muskrat

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2023, 08:36:55 AM »
What is your thought about using Bitcoin as the hedge (not a large percentage of your wealth though)? It is more volatile than gold and could have a larger upside.

ChpBstrd

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2023, 08:52:28 AM »
What is your thought about using Bitcoin as the hedge (not a large percentage of your wealth though)? It is more volatile than gold and could have a larger upside.
Cryptocurrencies are strongly correlated with the stock market. The represent the bleeding edge of risk-taking. This is exactly the opposite profile of an effective hedge.

ChpBstrd

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2023, 09:09:05 AM »
I agree almost completely with @ChpBstrd 's analysis of the financials, and warn @dividendman  and others that obtaining insurance - buying puts on stocks - will cost dearly.  Perhaps not as dearly as the long-term cost of an actual default...

The VIX volatility index closed at a mere 15.78 on Friday. That's relatively low territory considering bank failures, risks of defaults, the sudden rise in interest rates over the past 14 months, and yield curves more deeply inverted than since the Paul Volker era. I think it's the time to pounce on bargain-bin puts, particularly those with lots of duration

In tangible terms that means insurance was very cheap yesterday. For example, you can buy put options on SPY (the most liquid S&P500 proxy) expiring December 20, 2024 with an at-the-money strike price of 415 for about $32.80. With 601 days (or 1.65 years) remaining, this option's cost as a percentage of the strike price is ((32.8/415)/1.65)= 4.8% per year. I've been watching that metric for years. 6-7% is a more common price. The downside potential of a protected put position is even cheaper when you subtract SPY's 1.5% dividend yield.

VIX will bounce back and provide a tailwind for any put option you purchase this cheaply.

muskrat

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2023, 09:30:04 AM »
What is your thought about using Bitcoin as the hedge (not a large percentage of your wealth though)? It is more volatile than gold and could have a larger upside.
Cryptocurrencies are strongly correlated with the stock market. The represent the bleeding edge of risk-taking. This is exactly the opposite profile of an effective hedge.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/currencies/bitcoin-price-outlook-us-default-debt-ceiling-crisis-ethereum-price-2023-4

The correlation is accurate during normal times but it's also looked as a safe haven.  So, I tend to agree with this research.  A quick jog down and then followed by outsized growth.

ChpBstrd

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2023, 10:59:56 AM »
What is your thought about using Bitcoin as the hedge (not a large percentage of your wealth though)? It is more volatile than gold and could have a larger upside.
Cryptocurrencies are strongly correlated with the stock market. The represent the bleeding edge of risk-taking. This is exactly the opposite profile of an effective hedge.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/currencies/bitcoin-price-outlook-us-default-debt-ceiling-crisis-ethereum-price-2023-4

The correlation is accurate during normal times but it's also looked as a safe haven.  So, I tend to agree with this research.  A quick jog down and then followed by outsized growth.

IDK if I agree with the analyst's claim that Bitcoin "has a reputation for performing well in periods of stress and is often seen as a safe haven". If that were the case, it would have done great as stocks fell, inflation rose, and recession worries increased during 2022. Prior to that, Bitcoin generally went straight up, though we tend to forget about how it went from $8500 to $6200 during the initial phase of the COVID pandemic. If that's doing well, then stocks also did well when COVID hit.

dividendman

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2023, 12:04:44 PM »
Is it crazy that if the US does go into some kid of technical default that treasury yields would go down in a flight to safety? Is such a thing even possible? It seems like a paradox.

ChpBstrd

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2023, 12:22:25 PM »
Is it crazy that if the US does go into some kid of technical default that treasury yields would go down in a flight to safety? Is such a thing even possible? It seems like a paradox.
Not crazy. After a US default, most banks would collapse, corporate bonds would default, and a depression would occur. We can't know if the banks and corporations indebted to us would survive, but we do know that the US government will eventually print the necessary money and pay us back our treasuries. Maybe a bit late, but it will happen. And if it doesn't happen our dollars were not destined to be worth anything anyway.

chasesfish

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2023, 09:50:54 AM »
Chiming in here...

If this goes on for 30+ days past the "deadline", be careful on exposure to banks, government contractors, and healthcare organizations.

The interest will be paid first on the debt, likely followed by social security payments and federal payroll.  The payments that would be delayed are likely all payments to government contractors and medicare reimbursements.   Banks loan to both of those industries and will be exposed.

Any decision to attempt to not pay the interest when it's 2x tax revenue is both reckless and likely illegal, then if the administration chose to pay Raytheon and HCA over social security recipients and civil servants, it would be political suicide. 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2023, 09:52:28 AM by chasesfish »

weebs

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2023, 05:57:02 PM »
I'm starting to wonder if I've been a bit too sanguine about the potential default.  My retirement account is ~50% of my stash and I usually let let it ride, but I'm starting to wonder if I should sweep everything into Vanguard's Stable Income fund for a bit until the dust settles.  Thoughts?

ATtiny85

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2023, 06:11:37 PM »
I'm starting to wonder if I've been a bit too sanguine about the potential default.  My retirement account is ~50% of my stash and I usually let let it ride, but I'm starting to wonder if I should sweep everything into Vanguard's Stable Income fund for a bit until the dust settles.  Thoughts?

I’m not doing it, as I would have no idea when to sweep it back. About 25% of my tax advantaged accounts are in bonds, so the only action that I’ll take is using those to rebalance, but it will take quite a pullback to hit a rebalance band.

Also, I can’t think of a single day in my investing career that is approaching 30 years where the dust had settled. Sure it’s obvious right now that the equity market will plunge, but you only know looking back. It was obvious that March 2020 was only the beginning as a recent example.

Mr. Green

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2023, 07:03:17 PM »
The other flip side is an agreement is reached and the markets rally. I would be concerned about that if I went to cash. Then I start playing the mind game of "is a recession coming? Why buy in now after a big rally if we think that's in our near future?" The whole thing gets messy, and there's an opportunity to really do some damage if the timing is exceptionally poor.

weebs

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2023, 04:54:43 AM »
@ATtiny85 & @Mr. Green - you both make great points, especially about the timing.  If anything, my timing has been awful over the last couple years.  The other half of my stash invested outside of the market, mitigating the risk somewhat.  Steady as she goes.

ATtiny85

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2023, 08:29:45 AM »
@ATtiny85 & @Mr. Green - you both make great points, especially about the timing.  If anything, my timing has been awful over the last couple years.  The other half of my stash invested outside of the market, mitigating the risk somewhat.  Steady as she goes.

I get the fear and apprehension, and it doesn't have to be 100%.  The most dangerous thing is finding out your asset allocation it too aggressive once the market falls and you sell low. IF you have any thought that if your retirement equity positions fall by 30+% that you would sell them, then it might be prudent to take some small steps now. We see a lot of people destroy their wealth by finding out too late that they can't stomach such a high equity position. It is painful to see. So if you think we won't be able to calm your fear, it is time to reassess your asset allocation.

ChpBstrd

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2023, 09:09:25 AM »
Instead of tinkering with one's asset allocation, why not actually hedge using options.

Acollar strategy can be employed on an ongoing basis and will keep potential future returns within an acceptable range.

Mr Mark

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2023, 12:04:03 PM »
Is it crazy that if the US does go into some kid of technical default that treasury yields would go down in a flight to safety? Is such a thing even possible? It seems like a paradox.
Not crazy. After a US default, most banks would collapse, corporate bonds would default, and a depression would occur. We can't know if the banks and corporations indebted to us would survive, but we do know that the US government will eventually print the necessary money and pay us back our treasuries. Maybe a bit late, but it will happen. And if it doesn't happen our dollars were not destined to be worth anything anyway.

Nice point.
I've rebalanced to 75/25 from 80/20 over late Q1, and loaded up bond-wise with a strong tilt towards Long term treasuries (still available at near historic lows btw). Enough cash, FDIC and money market for a year's expenses (at least). Check.
Now back to RE.

Avoid crypto and gold team.
The sky is not falling.

She'll be right.

weebs

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Re: How to hedge against a US default
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2023, 01:39:20 PM »
I get the fear and apprehension, and it doesn't have to be 100%.  The most dangerous thing is finding out your asset allocation it too aggressive once the market falls and you sell low. IF you have any thought that if your retirement equity positions fall by 30+% that you would sell them, then it might be prudent to take some small steps now. We see a lot of people destroy their wealth by finding out too late that they can't stomach such a high equity position. It is painful to see. So if you think we won't be able to calm your fear, it is time to reassess your asset allocation.

Thanks for the guidance.  My current AA is pretty conservative and I have no intention of selling immediately after a market drop.  Case in point - I kept buying via pre-tax deductions when the market dropped last year. I'm still working and have a couple years of cash set aside, so I can wait it out.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!