Author Topic: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.  (Read 39078 times)

Xanatosnemos

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Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« on: December 17, 2014, 08:31:27 PM »
Hey everyone, I'm retired at 27 in North Carolina. Primarily through multifamily rental property and some private lending.

I am looking to expand my income and maybe branch out into more passive buy and hold strategies that pay dividends.

I'm fond of the idea of index fonds, not paying someone huge amounts to underperform, However, nothing I can really find is standing out to me as impressive. I'm used to making 15% returns minimum, and the best options I really see elsewhere average out to 5-7% and I feel like I would be better off buying silver bullion or gold and sitting on it. Any thoughts? Suggestions?


trugrit03

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2014, 08:43:06 PM »
Realistically you aren't going to find 15% average annual return in the stock or bond market or using mutual funds that invest in stocks and bonds. How much are you looking to invest? Depending on your investment, you could get into private placements or hedge funds,  but those have downsides as well and can be a good way to lose your shorts. If you are very wealthy though,  the normal thought process is to get more conservative,  not more risky.

Xanatosnemos

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2014, 09:06:36 PM »
my strategy leaves me with income, not savings. I dont have a lot to start with, but would plug away a few grand a month possibly towards the right thing. I'm tempted to stick it in a vanguard index and forget about it, possibly something in the international growth aspect, since I believe the emerging markets are obviously where the growth will occur, but I want income as well.

Cant have it all, huh?

OracleOfAtown

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2014, 09:51:15 PM »
Buying gold or silver is just a bet that someone will pay more for it at a future date.  They produce absolutely nothing and just sit there.  if you invest in a company or real estate you can generate money through dividends and growth of the company.  I wouldnt even consider buying gold an investment. I would just say that you're betting people will be more fearful in the future than today. If you get 15% and are comfortable with what you do stick with that.  You wont consistently get 15% out of stocks.

Xanatosnemos

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2014, 09:56:16 PM »
Buying a company is just a bet that the company will still be there in the future. Dividends do generate income, but generally the amount is less than the true inflation rate (As calculated by the rising cost of goods, not the governments new 'system' of accounting for inflation, which is incorrect and understated)

So the best you can hope for is to lose purchasing power more slowly than you would by setting something in the bank savings account.

Whereas gold and silver bullion serve as a hedge against inflation, as can be attested to by the historical prices generally outperforming the market. Not because the value has gone up.. but because the dollar has gone down.

The same gold coin will buy about the same amount of 'goods' now that it bought in 1935.

Gold and Silver are absolutely investments. And generally beat anything else out there.

That said, I want something that beats gold and silver consistently and also produces income, hence the post.

bwall

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2014, 10:06:47 PM »

Whereas gold and silver bullion serve as a hedge against inflation, as can be attested to by the historical prices generally outperforming the market. Not because the value has gone up.. but because the dollar has gone down.

Gold and Silver are absolutely investments. And generally beat anything else out there.

That said, I want something that beats gold and silver consistently and also produces income, hence the post.

Uhh.... No. Gold and silver are a form of savings, not investments. Learn the difference between the two for the sake of your future financial stability. From 1980-1998 just about anything, include beer, could beat gold and silver as an 'investment' as the price dropped in inflation adjusted terms every year.

Too many people think of an 'investment' as 'anything that goes up in value'. Artwork, car collections, stamp/coin collections, gun collections, etc. are examples of consumer goods that have increased in value over time (on occasion) and therefore people misinterpret these items as 'investments' solely because they increased in value. These are merely consumer goods that are not fully consumed by the owner and the value has increased. Gold and silver are in the same asset class. From an economic standpoint, you might as well be collecting cars, guns, stamps, or art as investing in shiny metals.

Xanatosnemos

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2014, 10:14:26 PM »
True, gold and silver are a saving technique to hedge against inflation.

They also beat the average returns of most other investments, like stocks, which even by your logic proves my point that most investments are actually negative yielding in terms of inflation.



So that said, I am looking for a vehicle that creates income, and also outearns the loss in purchasing power through erosion (inflation)

Not gold, silver, or any of general vehicles.

I'd be interested in hearing what you invest in.

OracleOfAtown

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2014, 10:22:02 PM »
Just trust in the greatest investor of all time.

Warren Buffett on Gold

To illustrate the point, he asked readers to picture the world’s entire gold stock melded together into a cube 68 feet (21 meters) on each side valued at $9.6 trillion at then- prevailing prices. For the same amount, an investor could have purchased all the farmland in the U.S., 16 replicas of Exxon Mobil Corp., and still have about $1 trillion of “walking- around money.”

A century later, the farmland will be producing valuable crops no matter the currency, and dividends from the companies would probably added up to trillions of dollars, Buffett wrote.

The 170,000 metric tons of gold “will be unchanged in size and still incapable of producing anything,” he wrote. “You can fondle the cube, but it will not respond.”

beltim

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2014, 10:45:39 PM »
True, gold and silver are a saving technique to hedge against inflation.

They also beat the average returns of most other investments, like stocks, which even by your logic proves my point that most investments are actually negative yielding in terms of inflation.

No.  Not even close.  Over the long term, gold does almost exactly the same as inflation: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stocks_for_the_Long_Run#Principles

Stocks have much higher returns than gold, and again, it's not even close.

If you really have some investment vehicle that makes 15% annually, that may be your best bet for high returns.  If you want additional safety, you might consider stocks and bonds.  Gold will protect you from inflation over the long term, but that's all it will do. 

bwall

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2014, 11:18:39 PM »

They also beat the average returns of most other investments, like stocks, which even by your logic proves my point that most investments are actually negative yielding in terms of inflation.

So that said, I am looking for a vehicle that creates income, and also outearns the loss in purchasing power through erosion (inflation)

Not gold, silver, or any of general vehicles.

I'd be interested in hearing what you invest in.

Shiny metals do not beat any 'average returns' of stocks. Stocks offer dividends, gold offers no dividend. Stocks offer appreciation, as gold may. But, gold is not a hedge against inflation. Some people may think it is, but that does not make it so.

Most investments are not negative yielding in terms of inflation. If you think I said that, then I believe you may have misunderstood my post.

The best long term vehicle that generates income and outpaces inflation is the American stock market. Better than real estate, shiny metals, collectables, foreign stock exchanges or any other asset class.

surfhb

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2014, 11:51:13 PM »
True, gold and silver are a saving technique to hedge against inflation.

They also beat the average returns of most other investments, like stocks, which even by your logic proves my point that most investments are actually negative yielding in terms of inflation.



So that said, I am looking for a vehicle that creates income, and also outearns the loss in purchasing power through erosion (inflation)

Not gold, silver, or any of general vehicles.

I'd be interested in hearing what you invest in.

Good God Man!    If you're going to blast your way onto an investment forum for the first time, please try and have some  facts handy.    You need to do some reading!    The worst 30 year period for the US stock market was just under7%....the best 30 year period was 12% 

Start here...here....and here

http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://jlcollinsnh.com/stock-series/

http://www.amazon.com/The-Intelligent-Investor-Practical-Counsel/dp/0060155477
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 12:01:46 AM by surfhb »

Fallenour

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2014, 05:47:37 AM »
True, gold and silver are a saving technique to hedge against inflation.

They also beat the average returns of most other investments, like stocks, which even by your logic proves my point that most investments are actually negative yielding in terms of inflation.

No.  Not even close.  Over the long term, gold does almost exactly the same as inflation: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stocks_for_the_Long_Run#Principles

Stocks have much higher returns than gold, and again, it's not even close.

If you really have some investment vehicle that makes 15% annually, that may be your best bet for high returns.  If you want additional safety, you might consider stocks and bonds.  Gold will protect you from inflation over the long term, but that's all it will do.

Why does everyone always say this?

Did ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE forget that we pay taxes on stock?

I have 1000 dollars, I buy one ounce of gold.

I have 1000 dollars, I buy one set of stock. (10 shares, 100 each). Yay magical numbers.

I make less than 18,000, I pay 15%.

I have 1k in stocks. Average business ranges crash out at ~80% over their lifetimes. Means only 20% of businesses survive.

Well assume, I did buffet level magic, and I invested in all winners, 10% across the board, the entire time, for 5 years.


Heres the math:

My gold, increasing in value equal to that of stock, rises at 4% per year, due to the increasing demands in electronics and inflation. I pay no taxes on gold, becuase I bought at 1000, I sell at 1000. I "didnt profit" therefore, I pay no taxes.

My stock, paying me a dividend of 10%, gets taxed several times.

source: http://www.irs.gov/publications/p550/ch01.html#en_US_2013_publink100010066

"Ordinary dividends are the most common type of distribution from a corporation or a mutual fund. They are paid out of earnings and profits and are ordinary income to you. "

"Qualified dividends are the ordinary dividends subject to the same 0%, 15%, or 20% maximum tax rate that applies to net capital gain. They should be shown in box 1b of the Form 1099-DIV you receive.

The maximum rate of tax on qualified dividends is:

    0% on any amount that otherwise would be taxed at a 10% or 15% rate.

    15% on any amount that otherwise would be taxed at rates greater than 15% but less than 39.6%.

    20% on any amount that otherwise would be taxed at a 39.6% rate."

This means that you get nailed for up to 20% (The average is 15), and then you get nailed again because it counts as standard income.

This is why so many were against the dividend tax.


So lets see.

We made 10%, so 100, but then we lose, 15%, so down to 85, and then well assume we are a standard american, so we make 55k, so we lose an additional 20% more.

So thats 100/100=1*15=15, 100-15=85, 85/100=.85, .85*20=17, 85-17=68.

So, of all the TOTAL ACTUALS, we only made 68 dollars AFTER taxes. Remember, we paid no taxes on our gold.

So in actual effect, with a 10% annual dividend, we only actually made 68 dollars off of, which is 68/1000, or 6.8%.

Now thats also assuming we of course, got paid 10% on dividends, which we don't in reality, we usually make 2% less than that at best realistically. So we'll say we made a realistic return, 8%.

We are still looking at the same market standards, taxes, etc, so its simply minus 2%. So we actually only made 4.8% realistically. Now, that sounds great still, but then you forget, inflation exists, and ooops, buying power dropped, 4%. So we only make, in the HIGHEST realistic projections, 0.8%.

AT very best. That's also assuming absolutely everything goes well, nothing goes wrong, the market will NEVER decrease, and our dividend will ALWAYS pay out, ANNNND, annnd, that the dividend stock itself will never decrease in value.

All of which, is unrealistic.

Ultimately, people buy gold because they want to avoid the losses incurred by inflation, they want to decrease their taxes (gold helps you do this surprisingly enough),

Fallenour

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2014, 05:58:22 AM »
True, gold and silver are a saving technique to hedge against inflation.

They also beat the average returns of most other investments, like stocks, which even by your logic proves my point that most investments are actually negative yielding in terms of inflation.



So that said, I am looking for a vehicle that creates income, and also outearns the loss in purchasing power through erosion (inflation)

Not gold, silver, or any of general vehicles.

I'd be interested in hearing what you invest in.

Good God Man!    If you're going to blast your way onto an investment forum for the first time, please try and have some  facts handy.    You need to do some reading!    The worst 30 year period for the US stock market was just under7%....the best 30 year period was 12% 

Start here...here....and here

http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://jlcollinsnh.com/stock-series/

http://www.amazon.com/The-Intelligent-Investor-Practical-Counsel/dp/0060155477

Actually no, thats not true at all.

The worst market periods saw up to 60% losses, thats -60.

The more recent ones have been -44%, and more recently in 2008 it was -37.22%.

Let me put that into perspective for you.

If you gain, say 10%, evenly, over a 10 year period, and you have one bad year.

1000+10%=+10%=+10%, you get the idea, you get roughly 2593. Now take away 37%. You get 1634.

Now thats assuming you only have a bad year every 10 years, and that you never paid taxes. Realistically, here is that math.

1000+6.8%+6.8%+6.8%+6.8%, again, you get the idea, you get 1930, then taking your hit, you get 1200.

You effectively lost 7 years of gains because of one year of losses.

During serious recessions, you could have years of back to back losses. You could simply have a black monday. But the negatives matter WAAY more than a positive ever will.

Its the same as paying off a credit card debt as compared to extending your limit, the percentage ratios favor on a dollar for dollar paying down the debt as compared to increase, because of the percentage ratios.

Example:

I have 1000 dollars of credit.

I buy 200 dollars worth of items. Im at 20%.

I have 100 dollars, and I have the option to extend my credit by 100. I can only do 1.

If I pay 100, my usage drops to 10%, if I increase by 100, my new overall is 1100, and my usage ratio shrinks to 18%.

Percentages matter, as do percents of percents, as well as base percentages.

People fail to realize just how powerful math can make us in our daily lives.


surfhb

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2014, 06:24:24 AM »
Again......I said 30 year periods.

ScroogeMcDutch

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2014, 06:50:47 AM »
@Fallenour:

I do not know the ins and outs of the US tax system, but a quick google search tells me that gold used as an investment vehicle will also be taxed as capital gains if you realise them. So, for capital gains tax it should not matter if you have gold or if you have stocks.

Furthermore you have ETFs that re-invest the dividends they receive, so you don't have to pay income tax over them. In that sense, you could make stocks and gold behave exactly the same from a tax point of view?

That leaves the difference between the two in terms of real monetary value. Because inflation is nasty, the price of gold fluctuates, as well as the value of the DJIA, let's express how many ounces of gold it would take to buy a slice of the DJIA. See chart at http://www.macrotrends.net/1378/dow-to-gold-ratio-100-year-historical-chart

I'm not an expert at this at all, but it seems to be going up.

Peak of Mar 1930:     13.83 ounces per unit of DJIA
Low of Feb 1933:       1.94 ounce per unit of DJIA
Peak of Jan 1966:      27.85 ounces per unit of DJIA
Low of Jan 1980:       1.29 ounces per unit of DJIA
Peak of Aug 1999:      42.19 ounces per unit of DJIA
Low of Sep 2011:       6.75 ounces per unit of DJIA
Current level:             15.07 ounces per unit of DJIA

This graph doesn't include the dividends that the DJIA has given you during that period, as it is just the index's level rather than including how much dividends were paid out. If you would make a graph of "how many ounces of gold could you get for the result of the underlying assets" then the graph would be a flat 0 for gold, and a rising line for the DJIA.

Furthermore, yes, companies go bankrupt. Luckily for us though, new companies also come into existence and enter the stock market. Noone is forcing you to not buy any new stock when a company enters the fray and that you have to keep those single stocks you bought in 1930 and NEVER EVER sell them.


@Xanentosnemos:
If you are able to generate 15% return on investment, regularly and with confidence, my suggestion would be to start an investment firm, charge a 2% management fee, and show you do it year in year out. The amount of money flowing to you should be enormous, especially if you can multiply using leverage. If the above does not apply, because the investment itself doesn't lend to leveraging and you're only able to get the 15% on smaller scale investments (say up to 5 million) then just invest the money there yourself.

If you want to get a higher return on investment (disregarding the risk) you will need to find an underutilized and undervalued asset to exploit. If you start a business for example, it's possible you have an idea that could turn into millions if utilized properly. It takes work to exploit it, and once it's running if you would bring such a company to market, the market would revert the value of shares to the mean of 7-8% market return.



All in all, quite a few of these posts felt like trolling. Formulating an answer helped me get some more things clear on the financial market however :)



lielec11

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2014, 06:53:24 AM »
It seems to me that due to the OP's previous investment "experience", the only thing that will appease him is realty or a Lending Club type of investment where you can bank on higher returns more easily. I feel like this stocks vs. gold argument will go nowhere for someone seeking 15%+ returns since neither of the investments mentions will likely provide that over the long term. Stick to the rental income that has served you so well. If you're retired by 27 you're doing something  right.

lielec11

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2014, 06:54:52 AM »
@Xanentosnemos:
If you are able to generate 15% return on investment, regularly and with confidence, my suggestion would be to start an investment firm, charge a 2% management fee, and show you do it year in year out. The amount of money flowing to you should be enormous, especially if you can multiply using leverage. If the above does not apply, because the investment itself doesn't lend to leveraging and you're only able to get the 15% on smaller scale investments (say up to 5 million) then just invest the money there yourself.

You put this a lot better than I ever could.

Fallenour

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2014, 06:58:20 AM »
@Fallenour:

I do not know the ins and outs of the US tax system, but a quick google search tells me that gold used as an investment vehicle will also be taxed as capital gains if you realise them. So, for capital gains tax it should not matter if you have gold or if you have stocks.

Furthermore you have ETFs that re-invest the dividends they receive, so you don't have to pay income tax over them. In that sense, you could make stocks and gold behave exactly the same from a tax point of view?

That leaves the difference between the two in terms of real monetary value. Because inflation is nasty, the price of gold fluctuates, as well as the value of the DJIA, let's express how many ounces of gold it would take to buy a slice of the DJIA. See chart at http://www.macrotrends.net/1378/dow-to-gold-ratio-100-year-historical-chart

I'm not an expert at this at all, but it seems to be going up.

Peak of Mar 1930:     13.83 ounces per unit of DJIA
Low of Feb 1933:       1.94 ounce per unit of DJIA
Peak of Jan 1966:      27.85 ounces per unit of DJIA
Low of Jan 1980:       1.29 ounces per unit of DJIA
Peak of Aug 1999:      42.19 ounces per unit of DJIA
Low of Sep 2011:       6.75 ounces per unit of DJIA
Current level:             15.07 ounces per unit of DJIA

This graph doesn't include the dividends that the DJIA has given you during that period, as it is just the index's level rather than including how much dividends were paid out. If you would make a graph of "how many ounces of gold could you get for the result of the underlying assets" then the graph would be a flat 0 for gold, and a rising line for the DJIA.

Furthermore, yes, companies go bankrupt. Luckily for us though, new companies also come into existence and enter the stock market. Noone is forcing you to not buy any new stock when a company enters the fray and that you have to keep those single stocks you bought in 1930 and NEVER EVER sell them.


@Xanentosnemos:
If you are able to generate 15% return on investment, regularly and with confidence, my suggestion would be to start an investment firm, charge a 2% management fee, and show you do it year in year out. The amount of money flowing to you should be enormous, especially if you can multiply using leverage. If the above does not apply, because the investment itself doesn't lend to leveraging and you're only able to get the 15% on smaller scale investments (say up to 5 million) then just invest the money there yourself.

If you want to get a higher return on investment (disregarding the risk) you will need to find an underutilized and undervalued asset to exploit. If you start a business for example, it's possible you have an idea that could turn into millions if utilized properly. It takes work to exploit it, and once it's running if you would bring such a company to market, the market would revert the value of shares to the mean of 7-8% market return.



All in all, quite a few of these posts felt like trolling. Formulating an answer helped me get some more things clear on the financial market however :)

Yes, correct, but you're missing two very important key factors.

One, ETFs reinvest the Dividends into the ETF itself, and thus, you dont pay taxes on THAT. Instead, you pay taxes on assets, as well as capital gains when you sell your stock.

You are also betting that theres not a market dip. Ever.

Second. Gold is a commodity, and as such, can be moved and sold, to any country in the world.

Taxes on capital gains that you sell your stock on, you must pay based on the market in which you sold them.

US markets, US taxes.

Gold, I can pick up and move to luxemburg, which allows me to avoid almost all capital gains taxes.

So for instance, I bought gold at its lowest point, which was 550 about 6 years ago. I sold during the gold peak, 2200 per ounce.

I made almost 400%, over 6 years, I average 40%.

I pay no taxes on this sale, because I sold it in luxemburg. I pay an accountant a small transaction fee for "asset transfer", 2% is the usual, I walk out a very healthy, very wealthy man.

Cromacster

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2014, 07:08:42 AM »
So for instance, I bought gold at its lowest point, which was 550 about 6 years ago. I sold during the gold peak, 2200 per ounce.

I made almost 400%, over 6 years, I average 40%.

Meh, now you are talking about market timing.  I could make some impressive claims about stocks I bought low and sold high.  This one stock I bought for 0.89 and 5 years later sold it for 8.67. WOW.  Luckily my capital gains didn't push me into the 25% tax bracket, so I didn't pay any taxes.  Oh and I had some free trades availalble through my online broker, No fees! woo.

The point is both my claim and your claim are absurd.

« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 07:10:30 AM by Cromacster »

InternationalStache

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2014, 07:18:36 AM »
Gold, I can pick up and move to luxemburg, which allows me to avoid almost all capital gains taxes.

....unless you are a U.S. citizen.

Scandium

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2014, 07:32:29 AM »


So for instance, I bought gold at its lowest point, which was 550 about 6 years ago. I sold during the gold peak, 2200 per ounce.

I made almost 400%, over 6 years, I average 40%.

I pay no taxes on this sale, because I sold it in luxemburg. I pay an accountant a small transaction fee for "asset transfer", 2% is the usual, I walk out a very healthy, very wealthy man.

I thought we established this is illegal, you have to pay capital gains taxes on gold as well? I'm not familiar with the law.

So because it makes it easier to break the law, international law even! gold is a good investment? In that case you could argue for investing in an opium farm or a meth lab..

ScroogeMcDutch

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2014, 07:40:34 AM »
...

Yes, correct, but you're missing two very important key factors.

One, ETFs reinvest the Dividends into the ETF itself, and thus, you dont pay taxes on THAT. Instead, you pay taxes on assets, as well as capital gains when you sell your stock.

Is there a difference between asset tax on gold and stocks in the USA when used as an investment asset? I thought there was no asset tax in the US? Just capital gains tax, which is treated the same between stocks and gold.

Quote
You are also betting that theres not a market dip. Ever.

There can be market dips. That is why I looked at DJIA in terms of gold as opposed to looking at gold and DJIA in terms of dollars. One ounce of gold in 1930 bought you less of DJIA than one ounce of gold buys you now. It fluctuates, as depicted by the graph.

Quote
Second. Gold is a commodity, and as such, can be moved and sold, to any country in the world.

Taxes on capital gains that you sell your stock on, you must pay based on the market in which you sold them.

US markets, US taxes.

I am a dutch citizen. If I buy and sell US stocks, I have to pay Dutch taxes on them. There are these things called tax treaties, and they do not depend on what market I buy or sell stocks on, but rather which residency I have.

I know the US has this policy of if you are a US citizen, you always have to pay US taxes, so in that case the market also doesn't matter.

Quote
Gold, I can pick up and move to luxemburg, which allows me to avoid almost all capital gains taxes.

This is tax evasion and illegal. Unless you became a Luxemburg citizen, in which you could also have sold the gold in the US and not have to pay any capital gains tax.

Quote
So for instance, I bought gold at its lowest point, which was 550 about 6 years ago. I sold during the gold peak, 2200 per ounce.

I made almost 400%, over 6 years, I average 40%.

I pay no taxes on this sale, because I sold it in luxemburg. I pay an accountant a small transaction fee for "asset transfer", 2% is the usual, I walk out a very healthy, very wealthy man.

Have fun with the IRS and the justice department when they find out you haven't declared the capital gains tax on selling physical gold intended as investment.

Can we keep the advice on these forums to what is legal?

beltim

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2014, 08:47:09 AM »
Actually, in the US, gold is taxed as a collectible, and subject to a higher 28% tax rate on gains:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-21/gold-etf-sellers-facing-tax-surprises-at-28-gains-rate.html

Xanatosnemos

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2014, 10:20:45 AM »
I fail to understand just how im supposedly profiting from a 4-6% stock return when inflation is just at 6% (http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts)

In this instance, gold/silver's ability to preserve against inflation is better than the stocks slowly losing out against inflation. I want to grow my purchasing power, not just my total $s.

Quote
@Xanentosnemos:
If you are able to generate 15% return on investment, regularly and with confidence, my suggestion would be to start an investment firm, charge a 2% management fee, and show you do it year in year out. The amount of money flowing to you should be enormous, especially if you can multiply using leverage. If the above does not apply, because the investment itself doesn't lend to leveraging and you're only able to get the 15% on smaller scale investments (say up to 5 million) then just invest the money there yourself.

I tend to be great with investments, I have no idea about opening an investment firm, but I can already guess theres a license required for it, and I am vaguely aware that when recommending investments your hands are tied by law to force diversification etc. So in reality, even if I went to school (I dont plan on being active that much longer, I plan on retiring completely and living off the income) and got the license, then opened the business. I'd never be able to recommend to my clients to do exactly what I do.


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For side note: http://www.cmi-gold-silver.com/monetarydigests/warren-buffett-buys-silver/

Buffett bought silver.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 10:23:22 AM by Xanatosnemos »

beltim

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2014, 10:34:11 AM »
I fail to understand just how im supposedly profiting from a 4-6% stock return when inflation is just at 6% (http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts)

In this instance, gold/silver's ability to preserve against inflation is better than the stocks slowly losing out against inflation. I want to grow my purchasing power, not just my total $s.

1) US stocks have returns 7% after inflation for the last hundred or 150 years.  Comparing that 7% to inflation is unnecessary.

2) Shadowstats is a thoroughly debunked web site1Its own founder admitted that all he does is take the official CPI number and add an arbitrary constant to it2.

3) Alternate measures of inflation, such as Google's billion prices project, match CPI numbers pretty closely3

1 http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/07/17/the-intellectual-cesspool-of-the-inflation-truthers/
2 http://econbrowser.com/archives/2008/10/shadowstats_res
3 http://bpp.mit.edu/


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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2014, 11:00:57 AM »
Actually, in the US, gold is taxed as a collectible, and subject to a higher 28% tax rate on gains:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-21/gold-etf-sellers-facing-tax-surprises-at-28-gains-rate.html

Both you and the gentleman above, are correct, but what you both are assuming is that I'm selling gold through the US, or in the US, and that I'm buying gold as a US citizen.  I am doing neither, nor would I suggest anyone to ever do so. I would also suggest to those who buy gold to never buy an ETF, but to buy actual, physical gold instead. Cash for Gold stores are aplenty in the america, and buying their gold is just as easy, and usually discounted from market value when purchased in bulk.

I buy gold through foreign countries, through established corporations on foreign soil. The gold belongs to the company, a foreign entity in all aspects as per US and international law, and therefore is not subject to US laws, codes, or tax systems. They answer, and are subject to, jurisdiction of the country in which they reside. As such, since the company is my property, but indirectly through a parent company on shore, I am shielded, and separated from its actual asset possessions.

Therefore, no taxes, US specifically speaking. Foreign tax systems? Yes, but not those categories, the ones that apply to commodities anyways, and not on an equal value sale.

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2014, 11:06:14 AM »
Where are you getting that stocks have returned 7% after inflation?

also,

http://www.forbes.com/sites/perianneboring/2014/02/03/if-you-want-to-know-the-real-rate-of-inflation-dont-bother-with-the-cpi/
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2014/05/us-food-inflation-running-at-22.html
http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/john-mauldin/is-government-lying-to-us-about-inflation-yes
http://www.cnbc.com/id/42551209#.

Given your ignorance about the investing world, and your unwillingness or inability to apply critical-thinking skills to remove that ignorance, my suggestion for the best way to "grow your income" is to hop on this hot trend sweeping the nation: get a job!

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2014, 11:27:50 AM »
Actually, in the US, gold is taxed as a collectible, and subject to a higher 28% tax rate on gains:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-21/gold-etf-sellers-facing-tax-surprises-at-28-gains-rate.html

Both you and the gentleman above, are correct, but what you both are assuming is that I'm selling gold through the US, or in the US, and that I'm buying gold as a US citizen.  I am doing neither, nor would I suggest anyone to ever do so. I would also suggest to those who buy gold to never buy an ETF, but to buy actual, physical gold instead. Cash for Gold stores are aplenty in the america, and buying their gold is just as easy, and usually discounted from market value when purchased in bulk.

I buy gold through foreign countries, through established corporations on foreign soil. The gold belongs to the company, a foreign entity in all aspects as per US and international law, and therefore is not subject to US laws, codes, or tax systems. They answer, and are subject to, jurisdiction of the country in which they reside. As such, since the company is my property, but indirectly through a parent company on shore, I am shielded, and separated from its actual asset possessions.

Therefore, no taxes, US specifically speaking. Foreign tax systems? Yes, but not those categories, the ones that apply to commodities anyways, and not on an equal value sale.

If you yourself are a U.S. citizen, you would still be subject to tax on your distributions from the foreign company.

You're also downplaying (ignoring?) the significant transactional costs, and to a lesser extent risks, with owning physical metals.  Especially under your proposed plan of setting up and maintaining a multi-entity corporate structure and transporting metals from one country to another.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 11:33:51 AM by InternationalStache »

Xanatosnemos

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2014, 11:30:46 AM »


Quote
Given your ignorance about the investing world, and your unwillingness or inability to apply critical-thinking skills to remove that ignorance, my suggestion for the best way to "grow your income" is to hop on this hot trend sweeping the nation: get a job!

So rather than refute the assertion that the CPI is an inaccurate form of tracking inflation, and is deceptive at best  you resort to ad hominem attacks against my character?

Well pal, I didn't realize we were in a playground, thought this was an investment forum, but hey, lets see you retire at 27. Asshat.

Xanatosnemos

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2014, 11:35:34 AM »
I'm also going to point out that its perfectly legal to use the Puerto Rico tax incentives to avoid capital gains tax and only pay 4% on income tax. And still remain in the US.

Theres some hoops to jump through to qualify, but if it works for you its worth while.

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2014, 11:41:18 AM »
I fail to understand just how im supposedly profiting from a 4-6% stock return when inflation is just at 6% (http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts)

In this instance, gold/silver's ability to preserve against inflation is better than the stocks slowly losing out against inflation. I want to grow my purchasing power, not just my total $s.

1) US stocks have returns 7% after inflation for the last hundred or 150 years.  Comparing that 7% to inflation is unnecessary.

2) Shadowstats is a thoroughly debunked web site1Its own founder admitted that all he does is take the official CPI number and add an arbitrary constant to it2.

3) Alternate measures of inflation, such as Google's billion prices project, match CPI numbers pretty closely3

1 http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/07/17/the-intellectual-cesspool-of-the-inflation-truthers/
2 http://econbrowser.com/archives/2008/10/shadowstats_res
3 http://bpp.mit.edu/

I didn't even know there were inflation thruthers! Great stuff, these people are hilarious. I imagine preppers sitting in their bunker with charts of milk prices growling about Obama conspiracies.

Fallenour; could you please tell us in what fantastic country you have set up this scheme? I believe we established that Luxemburg charges 40% tax so that's out. Bermuda? Monaco? UAE? I'd love to know, I promise not to tell the IRS

skyrefuge

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2014, 11:52:02 AM »
So rather than refute the assertion that the CPI is an inaccurate form of tracking inflation, and is deceptive at best

There is nothing I could say that would have improved on beltim's post, and I thought it pointless to repeat it. Maybe you just didn't see it somehow? http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/retired-at-27-looking-to-grow-my-income-more/msg487908/#msg487908

you resort to ad hominem attacks against my character?

Well, personal behavior is actually a critical part of investing success, so it's entirely appropriate (even essential) to bring your personal character into a discussion answering what may be the best investment for you.

thought this was an investment forum, but hey, lets see you retire at 27.

Yes, you do have me beat there. However, I hate to be the Internet Retirement Police, but I have to at least say that it's rare to see someone simultaneously call themselves "retired" while also declaring that they have insufficient income.

Anyway, while the first part of my post was certainly dickish, my last ("get a job") was genuine. Since you apparently cannot access your existing 15% returns to generate income, nor expand that operation, then generating income via labor seems like the next best option.

Because "investing" to generate (current) "income" is not something that even makes logical sense. "Investing" is essentially a deferral of current income in exchange for future income. Regardless of their returns, putting your money into stocks or gold will not generate income for you; it does the exact opposite, taking your income and making it inaccessible. Thus, using your human capital to generate current income seems like the best available option.

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2014, 12:03:47 PM »
Just buy the gold. It seems like thats they way you're leaning. Just know its not gonna produce any income.  You will just be banking on someone else paying a higher price for it in the future.  I use to golf with a guy who was all about gold and bragged about how great of an investment it was.  That was at $2k an ounce. He doesnt golf with us anymore.

beltim

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2014, 12:07:22 PM »
Where are you getting that stocks have returned 7% after inflation?
Pretty much any place that looks at long-term returns.  Examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stocks_for_the_Long_Run
http://www.thesimpledollar.com/where-does-7-come-from-when-it-comes-to-long-term-stock-returns/
http://www.simplestockinvesting.com/SP500-historical-real-total-returns.htm

Quote
also,
http://www.forbes.com/sites/perianneboring/2014/02/03/if-you-want-to-know-the-real-rate-of-inflation-dont-bother-with-the-cpi/
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2014/05/us-food-inflation-running-at-22.html
http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/john-mauldin/is-government-lying-to-us-about-inflation-yes
http://www.cnbc.com/id/42551209#.

So your support for arguing that ~80,000 data points (CPI) and a half million data points per day (BPP) are inaccurate is:

1) An article that quibbles with the technical CPI definition (the quibble doesn't apply to BPP, by the way), and then goes on to suggest an alternative that is further away from the definition of inflation the author uses to attempt to discredit the CPI at the beginning.
2) A random blog post saying that one component of inflation (food) is increasing at an annual 22% rate, without using any data to support that assertion.
3) Another random blog post that uses shadowstats (already discredited by its own creator) and a misunderstanding of CPI (hint: the CPI reports a whole bunch of inflation measures, including ones broken down by category, but the one used for every important measure includes all categories). 
4) Hey, another clickbait article that uses the still discredited shadowstats site (actually, this time they cite the newsletter).

Look, there are tweaks that could probably be made to increase the accuracy of the CPI measurement.  But shadowstats isn't it.  There's lots of data out there -- I suggest finding some from legitimate sources to try to make your argument (and a legitimate source citing an illegitimate source doesn't legitimize it).

beltim

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2014, 12:09:10 PM »
I didn't even know there were inflation thruthers! Great stuff, these people are hilarious. I imagine preppers sitting in their bunker with charts of milk prices growling about Obama conspiracies.

You have no idea.  It's turning into a pretty good litmus test to see if people actually care about data, or whether they just seek out an echo chamber that fits what they perceive the world to be, regardless of reality.

Xanatosnemos

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2014, 12:32:11 PM »


Quote
author=Xanatosnemos link=topic=28213.msg487988#msg487988 date=1418927446]you resort to ad hominem attacks against my character?

Well, personal behavior is actually a critical part of investing success, so it's entirely appropriate (even essential) to bring your personal character into a discussion answering what may be the best investment for you.
[/quote]

Exactly how does personal behavior being relevant to success in investing make it ok to insult people in a childish manner?

Furthermore, please elaborate on how exactly personal behavior improves the performance of ones stocks.. I think its pretty common knowledge at this point being a good person does not improve your performance as an investor, Noticed that little thing called Wall Street? Yea. exactly.

Furthermore, I am expanding my 15% Returns every single month, but at this point, I was beginning to look for something better, hence I came here to bounce around ideas in a serious fashion, not deal with childishness.

Secondly, I am able to sit at home and play videogames every day of the year and still afford to cover my bills and then some. That's retired. I simply want more. At this point I make more from putting deals together than from any 'active' labor, so theres really no point to getting a 'job' I'm better off going golfing and making friends.

Quote
Because "investing" to generate (current) "income" is not something that even makes logical sense. "Investing" is essentially a deferral of current income in exchange for future income. Regardless of their returns, putting your money into stocks or gold will not generate income for you; it does the exact opposite, taking your income and making it inaccessible. Thus, using your human capital to generate current income seems like the best available option.

This is inaccurate. There are many forms of investments and obviously you're referring to growth strategies, I am looking for income strategies. Traditionally you might think Bonds or Dividend stocks in stable companies. Which do not turn your current income into future income, it turns your current savings into current income. I want something that builds momentum well and surpasses actual inflation.

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http://www.moneychimp.com/features/market_cagr.htm

From 1913 to 2013 respectively.

He is misspoken, its not 7, its actually 6.54 realized returns (CAGR).

He makes a valid point on inflation though.

We can simply agree to disagree on the real inflation rates. I follow the Austrian school of economics and not the Keynesian. That said, lets simply operate on the assumption that I require a higher standard of performance in my investments.


As much as I support gold/silver for the average man as a means of investment, I do not think its good enough for what I am trying to accomplish in my personal finances, and I am not dealing with an 'average' life or goals.

People have repeatedly made the mistake of my being supportive of gold as meaning that i have 'made up my mind' about investing in it. if I had, why did I start this post?

The whole post has become confrontational, lets get back to the point. And actually consider ideas to get some high yield income investments.



perhaps someone would be so kind as to enlighten me, lets go with this article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/perianneboring/2014/02/03/if-you-want-to-know-the-real-rate-of-inflation-dont-bother-with-the-cpi/

Please, refute them on a point by point basis. I am genuinely interested in seeing where their mistakes are exactly, and if so, will happily admit I am wrong.

Fallenour

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2014, 12:40:38 PM »
Honestly, I only ever buy gold when I lose trust in the market, specifically when I lose trust in the US, which sad to say has been occuring more and more often as they play chicken with US tax payer, and the USD.

Otherwise, I tend to maintain a 7.5% commodities holding at any given time, broken up between gold, silver, copper, oil, lithium, and beef.

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2014, 12:45:16 PM »
As much as I support gold/silver for the average man as a means of investment, I do not think its good enough for what I am trying to accomplish in my personal finances, and I am not dealing with an 'average' life or goals.

Roulette, bet on black.

You break it down to such a simple question.  In sesne you are saying, I will not bother with normal investments that return 7% on average.  I will not accept less than 15 or 20.  Hell why not 50?.  If it were such an easy question everyone would do it.

You could start a business.  You could write an app.  You could buy more rental properties.  Or you could bet on black. 

With the way you are asking the question all of those answers fit the bill.

Edit:  You could also try Lending Club.  MMM reports 13% returns.  I have seen other people report higher.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 12:48:22 PM by Cromacster »

beltim

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2014, 12:48:57 PM »
perhaps someone would be so kind as to enlighten me, lets go with this article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/perianneboring/2014/02/03/if-you-want-to-know-the-real-rate-of-inflation-dont-bother-with-the-cpi/

Please, refute them on a point by point basis. I am genuinely interested in seeing where their mistakes are exactly, and if so, will happily admit I am wrong.

No.  The points aren't valid because they throw up a screen of untrustworthiness "the government has a reason to lie" without showing any data.  Actually, no, I'm wrong - the one piece of data she uses is that according to the CPI "the average price of beef and veal increased 20 percent over the past five years" while according to the FDA "beef prices have increased 26 percent over the past five years."  If you can't see how including veal might change prices, then I don't know what to say.  But even so, the difference between 20% over 5 years and 26% over 5 years is a difference of 1.0% annualized.  In other words, the best data point that an author arguing that the CPI is inaccurate has shows a difference of 1.0% annually.

That's the biggest difference that she could find.  To me, that says the maximum error is 1.0% annually, and that's only if you go looking for it.  When other people check the CPI's work, they come up with a difference of at most a few tenths of a percent: http://bpp.mit.edu/usa/ 

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2014, 12:51:01 PM »
You seem very confident in your ability to beat the market.  I think the best bet to beat your current sub-standard 15% returns is to start playing the Forex game with Russian Rubles -- OR alternatively you could use their 17+% interest rate environment to make a killing!

Anyone else think this thread is full of Troll?  I know I just did it, but I'm not sure you're supposed to feed the troll.   ( :


geek101

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2014, 12:57:59 PM »
It's pretty well accepted among economists that CPI is in no way perfect, but it's the best tool we have to analyse a complex issue. We got into a pretty big argument with one of our professors over it. It's not the best metric but it's what we've got. If you want to propose a new metric, be my guest.

And yes, the S&P500 has beat inflation by between 6-7% historically in the long run. Different time periods will yield different numbers between 6-7%. Bogleheads calculates 6.87% from 1926-2013. http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/S%26P_500_index

The US stock market is the greatest wealth building tool in the history of mankind. If you want to skip out on that, that's fully within your rights, it's your money after all.

I think you're last post has revealed the difference in philosophy Xanatosnemos. I'm (and I believe most of the people here) are in the mindset of wealth building, you're just looking to generate additional income (for spending I am assuming). In order to generate additional income, you need to give up something: time or money. Take your pick, but you're not going to find something that allows you to give up nothing and generate additional income, and you're certainly not going to find many opportunities to get 10% annualized/inflation adjusted in the long run.

If I were you I'd let go of the inflation worries and let the stock market work for you. If you don't think 10% return before any inflation adjustment is enough, we can't really help you here. 


Fallenour

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2014, 12:58:21 PM »
You seem very confident in your ability to beat the market.  I think the best bet to beat your current sub-standard 15% returns is to start playing the Forex game with Russian Rubles -- OR alternatively you could use their 17+% interest rate environment to make a killing!

Anyone else think this thread is full of Troll?  I know I just did it, but I'm not sure you're supposed to feed the troll.   ( :

Its already increased to 25%.

Ruble up from 73 to 61.

Increases already occured, and so far Ive made...57M rubles, roughly 930K.

I told you guys, the ruble wouldnt be down forever, and KGB dont play SOOON! Vladimir is many things, and stupid isn't one of them.

Now of course, my account is leveraged heavily at the moment, with a massive amount of cash on the line, so its a make it or break it bet for me. I have to ride out to at least 50 to meet my requirements and make my objective, but yes, ruble is good bet. Always trust mother russia, she shit on you for breakfast, pour you top shelf vodka for dinner.

OracleOfAtown

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2014, 12:58:45 PM »
Looking for ideas.

Ive been buying the ETF SDOG.  They use the dogs of the dow theory but spread funds equally over the 10 sectors of the S&P 500.  They invest in the 5 highest yielding stocks in each sector. The idea is that the highest yielding stocks could be the most undervalued. It kicks out a solid +3% dividend. I think dividend payers are an important investment right now with basically zero yield on savings accounts and cds. Dividends, diversification and the possibility having stocks that are undervalued are 3 things im constantly looking for and this investment caught my eye.   

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2014, 01:00:17 PM »
I didn't even know there were inflation thruthers! Great stuff, these people are hilarious. I imagine preppers sitting in their bunker with charts of milk prices growling about Obama conspiracies.

You have no idea.  It's turning into a pretty good litmus test to see if people actually care about data, or whether they just seek out an echo chamber that fits what they perceive the world to be, regardless of reality.

Pretty much. One of the few people at work I talk investing with has mentioned how "real" inflation is much higher. And he also likes to buy actual gold, because he think the dollar will collapse, and because he's been "studying" it.. And how commodities must go up. I've slowly backed away from talking to him about investing because of this.

Scandium

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2014, 01:16:56 PM »
Looking for ideas.

Ive been buying the ETF SDOG.  They use the dogs of the dow theory but spread funds equally over the 10 sectors of the S&P 500.  They invest in the 5 highest yielding stocks in each sector. The idea is that the highest yielding stocks could be the most undervalued. It kicks out a solid +3% dividend. I think dividend payers are an important investment right now with basically zero yield on savings accounts and cds. Dividends, diversification and the possibility having stocks that are undervalued are 3 things im constantly looking for and this investment caught my eye.
High yielding is that way for a reason. Risk. See Detroit munis..

Blue chip dividend payers is a good bet now? After 5 years of people chasing yield and pouring money into them, pushing them well above average P/E? Sure.. Unless you need income right now why do you care about yields?

surfhb

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2014, 01:17:43 PM »
Love hearing investment ideas from young folks whos only perspective is the greatest bull market in market history.   

Once you live through several resssions and bears, your perspective changes..... Believe me.   

maki

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2014, 01:24:45 PM »
@Xanatosnemos - i'll try to address the topic post.

if you're looking for income strategies, i'd throw out the idea of you trying your hand at purchasing websites/online businesses.

i'm averaging 45-60% ROI on my portfolio of websites, and it's scalable if you have good systems in place. i plan on funneling these profits into my portfolio of stocks and my portfolio of real estate acquisitions after it reaches a certain monthly threshold.

i'd say 95% of the battle is finding a website to buy on an auction site that isn't a scam. the remaining 5% is whether or not you can monetize it better than the previous owner and sustain/grow the traffic. i feel i do excellent due diligence on these ends, which has helped contribute to my profitability.

it's a great side job/hobby, and the stuff you learn (thought the learning curve is steep) is quite useful.

my two cents.

skyrefuge

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Re: Retired at 27, looking to grow my income more.
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2014, 01:26:41 PM »
Furthermore, please elaborate on how exactly personal behavior improves the performance of ones stocks.. I think its pretty common knowledge at this point being a good person does not improve your performance as an investor, Noticed that little thing called Wall Street? Yea. exactly.

It's not about morals (being a "good person" or "bad person"). It's about actual behavior. People tend to lose money in the stock market because emotion causes them to buy high and sell low. Your belief in ShadowStats reveals a distrust/paranoia that will likely not serve you well during a stock market crash. Additionally, your lack of interest in reading links provided in this thread indicates that you are not receptive to changing your mind based on new information, which is another crucial skill necessary for stock-market success. But neither of these behaviors make you a bad person.

I simply want more.

Maybe you simply didn't express yourself clearly in your initial post. Which of these two do you want more of?

1) Income: money that you would like to spend on current consumption
2) Net worth: money that can be used to generate income in the future and cover future consumption

This is inaccurate. There are many forms of investments and obviously you're referring to growth strategies, I am looking for income strategies. Traditionally you might think Bonds or Dividend stocks in stable companies. Which do not turn your current income into future income, it turns your current savings into current income. I want something that builds momentum well and surpasses actual inflation.

Say your current investments are providing $1000/mo that is "left over". If your goal is to increase current consumption, you can simply spend that $1000/mo (on beer, a new car, whatever). If your goal is to increase your net worth, then you can invest that $1000/mo. But even if you invest it in some magical source that provides 20% returns, that only generates $200 of spending money instead of the $1000 you had available to spend before you invested it. Only if your rate of return exceeds 100% will investing your cash provide you with more current spending money than simply, uh, spending it.

Whether an investment produces its return via "growth" or "dividends/interest" is irrelevant, since a "growth" investment in a liquid market can produce income just as well as a dividend investment (just sell whatever portion of the growth you'd like).

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!