Author Topic: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.  (Read 53112 times)

bwall

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #150 on: May 13, 2021, 12:22:11 PM »
What I firmly disagree with is a bunch of outsiders who are not involved in that chain looking at a big number and crying foul.
And what I firmly disagree with is a bunch of outsiders who are not involved in that chain looking a a big number and crying "FAIR!"
I am not saying it is fair or not. I am saying it is none of my business. I am saying the people who are employing the CEO should be able to decide what to pay him with their own money, simple as that.

Hmm...... so you're saying that the people who set the wages of the CEO's are the ones who own the company? Shareholders own the company, not the Board of Directors.  And the shareholders don't set the pay, unfortunately, the Board of Directors do.

I bet that the Board of Directors has more motivation to overpay the CEO than to fairly pay the employees, without which nothing would be possible.

CEO's in the USA are grossly overpaid when compared to their peers in Japan and Germany. The CEO of Toyota, a much larger company than McDonald's, received $1.86 million in total compensation in 2020. https://www.industryweek.com/talent/compensation-strategies/article/21960592/toyota-bosss-pay-hike-still-leaves-him-trailing

So, yeh, McDonalds can afford to pay their workers more and their CEO less, if they choose to afford it.

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #151 on: May 13, 2021, 12:27:28 PM »
Quote
CEO's in the USA are grossly overpaid when compared to their peers in Japan and Germany. The CEO of Toyota, a much larger company than McDonald's, received $1.86 million in total compensation in 2020.

If I was a shareholder (the one ultimately employing the CEO), I know which one I would prefer! Poor example!

Telecaster

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #152 on: May 13, 2021, 12:27:48 PM »
I agree with this to a limited extent.

My contention is that raising wages would increase the cost of the products produced. It would follow that decreasing wages (in this case for leadership) could result in a savings and decrease in cost of good.

Where I am skeptical of your argument is that your assumption is that they CAN simply reduce wages of higher earning positions. I would argue that those positions generally should command a higher wage, which should increase even further given the increased salary competition from the lower-skilled positions. Things like this can happen in the short term, but I think longer term this is not usually an option unless a gross-imbalance already existed.

The CEO of McDonald's has a total compensation of about $20 million.   I find it completely implausible he adds that much value to the company or that the board couldn't find a person with a similar skill set for say, $750,000. 

I find it more plausible the board of directors is corrupt and jacking executive compensation because it is in their own best interests.

The sort of person who jumps through the hoops to be the CEO of McDonalds surely deserves MUCH MUCH more than $750,000. A run of the mill surgeon can easily surpass $750,000, many lawyers do etc.  Heck, at that rate the CEO may be tempted to simply go run 2 McDonalds franchises and make more money for way less stress/sacrifice.

I can't defend a specific number, but I would much rather have the market set that price on a voluntary basis than have the government mandate it. Let the people actually paying the CEO, decide what he should/shouldn't be paid.

When it comes to corporate governance, there is certainly some conflicts of interest and opportunities for improvement particularly when it comes to HOW the CEO is compensated. That is a very complex topic though without easy solutions.

I think the shareholders deserve to get value from the employees, including the CEO.   The board should be asking themselves if the current CEO's skill set adds $20 million of value.  If not, they should find somebody who can do the job for less money.

For example, GE's former CEO Jeff Immelt had an empty jet follow the corporate jet he was riding on.  The logic was his time was so valuable that in case of a breakdown they wouldn't have to wait for repairs or schedule a charter.   That's crazy.  No one's time is that valuable.   He was clearly unable to make sound business decisions and was being way over compensated.  Especially based on the company's performance.  They eventually paid him $200 million to go away.   I can make bad business decisions for much less than that. 


JLee

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #153 on: May 13, 2021, 12:31:09 PM »
Quote
To be clear, you are arguing that the very same system that created the utterly massive wealth gap we have today is also going to be responsible for fixing it all on its own, and your evidence is that the poors saw a whopping $2400 net worth increase over THREE YEARS:

To be clear I am not actually concerned about a wealth gap - I just addressed it because it was brought up. Personally I think a wealth gap is fine so long as all boats are rising.

Watch this.
https://speakola.com/political/margaret-thatcher-on-socialism-last-speech-1990

The median income raising is important though and it was at an all time high, so the MEDIAN POTENTIAL FOR WEALTH was at an all time high.

The wealth gap is much more a function of spendy-pants behavior than an actual income problem. I would have thought MMM readers would be the most aware of this. Having no money is not the same thing as having-had no money.

MMM wrote an entire blog about this with a really popular forum!

Go reread my post.

GuitarStv

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #154 on: May 13, 2021, 12:31:49 PM »
What I firmly disagree with is a bunch of outsiders who are not involved in that chain looking at a big number and crying foul.

I own index funds that cover most major companies in the world.  I'm an insider, not an outsider - and I cry foul at ridiculous CEO salaries.  The board of these companies doesn't give a fuck about insiders like me though.

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #155 on: May 13, 2021, 12:32:18 PM »
I agree with this to a limited extent.

My contention is that raising wages would increase the cost of the products produced. It would follow that decreasing wages (in this case for leadership) could result in a savings and decrease in cost of good.

Where I am skeptical of your argument is that your assumption is that they CAN simply reduce wages of higher earning positions. I would argue that those positions generally should command a higher wage, which should increase even further given the increased salary competition from the lower-skilled positions. Things like this can happen in the short term, but I think longer term this is not usually an option unless a gross-imbalance already existed.

The CEO of McDonald's has a total compensation of about $20 million.   I find it completely implausible he adds that much value to the company or that the board couldn't find a person with a similar skill set for say, $750,000. 

I find it more plausible the board of directors is corrupt and jacking executive compensation because it is in their own best interests.

The sort of person who jumps through the hoops to be the CEO of McDonalds surely deserves MUCH MUCH more than $750,000. A run of the mill surgeon can easily surpass $750,000, many lawyers do etc.  Heck, at that rate the CEO may be tempted to simply go run 2 McDonalds franchises and make more money for way less stress/sacrifice.

I can't defend a specific number, but I would much rather have the market set that price on a voluntary basis than have the government mandate it. Let the people actually paying the CEO, decide what he should/shouldn't be paid.

When it comes to corporate governance, there is certainly some conflicts of interest and opportunities for improvement particularly when it comes to HOW the CEO is compensated. That is a very complex topic though without easy solutions.

I think the shareholders deserve to get value from the employees, including the CEO.   The board should be asking themselves if the current CEO's skill set adds $20 million of value.  If not, they should find somebody who can do the job for less money.

For example, GE's former CEO Jeff Immelt had an empty jet follow the corporate jet he was riding on.  The logic was his time was so valuable that in case of a breakdown they wouldn't have to wait for repairs or schedule a charter.   That's crazy.  No one's time is that valuable.   He was clearly unable to make sound business decisions and was being way over compensated.  Especially based on the company's performance.  They eventually paid him $200 million to go away.   I can make bad business decisions for much less than that.

I wont argue with this example. Clearly that guy had some....interesting... ideas of efficiency.

And I do agree, the board should be finding the best candidate at the right price. 100% agree... so long as its the board that does that, and not government.

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #156 on: May 13, 2021, 12:35:18 PM »
Quote
To be clear, you are arguing that the very same system that created the utterly massive wealth gap we have today is also going to be responsible for fixing it all on its own, and your evidence is that the poors saw a whopping $2400 net worth increase over THREE YEARS:

To be clear I am not actually concerned about a wealth gap - I just addressed it because it was brought up. Personally I think a wealth gap is fine so long as all boats are rising.

Watch this.
https://speakola.com/political/margaret-thatcher-on-socialism-last-speech-1990

The median income raising is important though and it was at an all time high, so the MEDIAN POTENTIAL FOR WEALTH was at an all time high.

The wealth gap is much more a function of spendy-pants behavior than an actual income problem. I would have thought MMM readers would be the most aware of this. Having no money is not the same thing as having-had no money.

MMM wrote an entire blog about this with a really popular forum!

Go reread my post.

JLEE,

I did read your post. It was 100% about wealth gap. My whole rebuttal was that the wealth gap doesn't matter. Raising incomes/standards of living do. To be clear if someone chooses to spend all of thier rising income, and maintain a low net worth, that is fine by me - I wouldnt want to take away choice. This is why I think income gap is a better measure than wealth gap.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 12:39:06 PM by Simpleton »

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #157 on: May 13, 2021, 12:36:14 PM »
What I firmly disagree with is a bunch of outsiders who are not involved in that chain looking at a big number and crying foul.

I own index funds that cover most major companies in the world.  I'm an insider, not an outsider - and I cry foul at ridiculous CEO salaries.  The board of these companies doesn't give a fuck about insiders like me though.

Your shares have just as much say as any other shareholder... democracy. Every shareholder should be looking out for the best interest of their shares. Not perfect, but not totally broken either.

Edubb20

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #158 on: May 13, 2021, 12:45:48 PM »
I agree with this to a limited extent.

My contention is that raising wages would increase the cost of the products produced. It would follow that decreasing wages (in this case for leadership) could result in a savings and decrease in cost of good.

Where I am skeptical of your argument is that your assumption is that they CAN simply reduce wages of higher earning positions. I would argue that those positions generally should command a higher wage, which should increase even further given the increased salary competition from the lower-skilled positions. Things like this can happen in the short term, but I think longer term this is not usually an option unless a gross-imbalance already existed.

The CEO of McDonald's has a total compensation of about $20 million.   I find it completely implausible he adds that much value to the company or that the board couldn't find a person with a similar skill set for say, $750,000. 

I find it more plausible the board of directors is corrupt and jacking executive compensation because it is in their own best interests.

The sort of person who jumps through the hoops to be the CEO of McDonalds surely deserves MUCH MUCH more than $750,000. A run of the mill surgeon can easily surpass $750,000, many lawyers do etc.  Heck, at that rate the CEO may be tempted to simply go run 2 McDonalds franchises and make more money for way less stress/sacrifice.

I can't defend a specific number, but I would much rather have the market set that price on a voluntary basis than have the government mandate it. Let the people actually paying the CEO, decide what he should/shouldn't be paid.

When it comes to corporate governance, there is certainly some conflicts of interest and opportunities for improvement particularly when it comes to HOW the CEO is compensated. That is a very complex topic though without easy solutions.

Do they deserve MUCH MUCH more? Really? How about 19.25 million more? Based on value added to our society, I disagree. To each there own.

Also, exactly *who* is it deciding what the salary package should be at the C-level? And how are we to determine what is "fair"? Is "fair" always correctly established based upon what a group of 10-12 people determine?

It's not about "fair" though. I don't think its up to any arbitrary person to decide what is "fair" for others to make. It is also not up to the board of directors to determine the value of the CEO to "society" - that is beyond the scope of professional burger peddlers.

The people paying the CEO (shareholders) employ a board of directors who in turn manage the CEO and his compensation package.

If the CEO is not producing value it is up to the board to recognize this and adjust. If the board is not doing its job properly, the shareholders can elect a new board.

Where we have agreement is that the election of the board sometimes lacks engagement/transparency, and this process could be better. Ultimately it is the shareholders who allow this to go on, and it is their money to waste.

What I firmly disagree with is a bunch of outsiders who are not involved in that chain looking at a big number and crying foul.

You've explained how the compensation of a CEO is determined by their shareholders (board of directors?). Great. Value to an organization and value to society are two different things, which you also recognize, but  you shirk the second one by saying determining value to society is outside the scope of the organization. If this is true, who' scope is it in? If you believe it isn't the governments responsibility, then it's implied that it's solely on the consumer. I guess that's the gospel of the free market.  Unfortunately, thus far, we've never seen a true free market and anything resembling it get's pretty ugly because of deceptive practices, lack of environmental considerations, resource hording, monopolization, etc. At this point the aforementioned issues have been addressed by governments(typically with middling success because of lobbying and corruption on the behalf of the corporations ).

The government should, through the power the democratic process, make decision on our behalf and of our interests. In my case, I want businesses well regulated to protect consumers and I also want wealth inequality addressed. I want my government to reflect the needs of it's people and that means intervening on my/our behalf.  If you leave the average consumer alone without appropriate and uncorrupted intervention from the government you end up with 1 in 7 people below the poverty line... kind of like now.



« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 01:07:54 PM by Edubb20 »

JLee

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #159 on: May 13, 2021, 12:51:42 PM »
Quote
To be clear, you are arguing that the very same system that created the utterly massive wealth gap we have today is also going to be responsible for fixing it all on its own, and your evidence is that the poors saw a whopping $2400 net worth increase over THREE YEARS:

To be clear I am not actually concerned about a wealth gap - I just addressed it because it was brought up. Personally I think a wealth gap is fine so long as all boats are rising.

Watch this.
https://speakola.com/political/margaret-thatcher-on-socialism-last-speech-1990

The median income raising is important though and it was at an all time high, so the MEDIAN POTENTIAL FOR WEALTH was at an all time high.

The wealth gap is much more a function of spendy-pants behavior than an actual income problem. I would have thought MMM readers would be the most aware of this. Having no money is not the same thing as having-had no money.

MMM wrote an entire blog about this with a really popular forum!

Go reread my post.

JLEE,

I did read your post. It was 100% about wealth gap. My whole rebuttal was that the wealth gap doesn't matter. Raising incomes/standards of living do. To be clear if someone chooses to spend all of thier rising income, and maintain a low net worth, that is fine by me - I wouldnt want to take away choice. This is why I think income gap is a better measure than wealth gap.

Your argument was that the wealth gap is closing, which it is not.

mntnmn117

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #160 on: May 13, 2021, 01:01:20 PM »

You've explained how the compensation of a CEO is determined by their shareholders (board of directors?). Great. Value to an organization and value to society are two different things, which you also recognize, but  you shirk the second one by saying determining value to society is outside the scope of the organization. If this is true, who' scope is it in? If you believe it isn't the governments responsibility, then it's implied that it's solely on the consumer. I guess that's the gospel of the free market.  Unfortunately, thus far, we've never seen a true free market and anything resembling it get's pretty ugly because of deception of consumers, lack of environmental considerations, resource hording, monopolization, etc. At this point the aforementioned issues have been addressed by governments(typically with middling success because of lobbying and corruption on the behalf of the corporations ).

The government should, through the power the democratic process, make decision on our behalf and of our interests. In my case, I want businesses well regulated to protect consumers and I also want wealth inequality addressed. I want my government to reflect the needs of it's people and that means intervening on my/our behalf.  If you leave the average consumer alone without appropriate and uncorrupted intervention from the government you end up with 1 in 7 people below the poverty line... kind of like now.

Compensation for the CEO isn't tied to real value delivered by the executive. It's like hey if they guy's worth 10M then that means I'm worth 10M too. CEO's are playing the how much can I take before the employees/shareholders do something about it. Problem is the shareholders can't do anything about it so the Executives just take as much as they can get away with.  I think American executives started to figure this out in the 80s and the train is been runaway ever since.

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #161 on: May 13, 2021, 01:17:52 PM »
Quote
To be clear, you are arguing that the very same system that created the utterly massive wealth gap we have today is also going to be responsible for fixing it all on its own, and your evidence is that the poors saw a whopping $2400 net worth increase over THREE YEARS:

To be clear I am not actually concerned about a wealth gap - I just addressed it because it was brought up. Personally I think a wealth gap is fine so long as all boats are rising.

Watch this.
https://speakola.com/political/margaret-thatcher-on-socialism-last-speech-1990

The median income raising is important though and it was at an all time high, so the MEDIAN POTENTIAL FOR WEALTH was at an all time high.

The wealth gap is much more a function of spendy-pants behavior than an actual income problem. I would have thought MMM readers would be the most aware of this. Having no money is not the same thing as having-had no money.

MMM wrote an entire blog about this with a really popular forum!

Go reread my post.

JLEE,

I did read your post. It was 100% about wealth gap. My whole rebuttal was that the wealth gap doesn't matter. Raising incomes/standards of living do. To be clear if someone chooses to spend all of thier rising income, and maintain a low net worth, that is fine by me - I wouldnt want to take away choice. This is why I think income gap is a better measure than wealth gap.

Your argument was that the wealth gap is closing, which it is not.

You quoted me, and said "go reread my post".

The post you quoted from me, had the first line "To be clear, I am not concerned with the wealth gap...."

GuitarStv

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #162 on: May 13, 2021, 01:23:17 PM »
What I firmly disagree with is a bunch of outsiders who are not involved in that chain looking at a big number and crying foul.

I own index funds that cover most major companies in the world.  I'm an insider, not an outsider - and I cry foul at ridiculous CEO salaries.  The board of these companies doesn't give a fuck about insiders like me though.

Your shares have just as much say as any other shareholder... democracy. Every shareholder should be looking out for the best interest of their shares. Not perfect, but not totally broken either.

Not really.

"Index funds now control half the U.S. stock mutual fund market, giving the biggest funds enormous power to influence decisions and demand better returns at the companies in which they invest trillions of dollars.

But the leading U.S. index fund firms, BlackRock Inc, Vanguard Group and State Street Corp, rarely use that clout. Instead, they overwhelmingly support the decisions and pay packages of executives at the companies in their portfolios, including the worst performers, according to a Reuters analysis of their shareholder-voting records."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-funds-index-specialreports-idUSKBN1WN107

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #163 on: May 13, 2021, 01:24:39 PM »

You've explained how the compensation of a CEO is determined by their shareholders (board of directors?). Great. Value to an organization and value to society are two different things, which you also recognize, but  you shirk the second one by saying determining value to society is outside the scope of the organization. If this is true, who' scope is it in? If you believe it isn't the governments responsibility, then it's implied that it's solely on the consumer. I guess that's the gospel of the free market.  Unfortunately, thus far, we've never seen a true free market and anything resembling it get's pretty ugly because of deception of consumers, lack of environmental considerations, resource hording, monopolization, etc. At this point the aforementioned issues have been addressed by governments(typically with middling success because of lobbying and corruption on the behalf of the corporations ).

The government should, through the power the democratic process, make decision on our behalf and of our interests. In my case, I want businesses well regulated to protect consumers and I also want wealth inequality addressed. I want my government to reflect the needs of it's people and that means intervening on my/our behalf.  If you leave the average consumer alone without appropriate and uncorrupted intervention from the government you end up with 1 in 7 people below the poverty line... kind of like now.

Compensation for the CEO isn't tied to real value delivered by the executive. It's like hey if they guy's worth 10M then that means I'm worth 10M too. CEO's are playing the how much can I take before the employees/shareholders do something about it. Problem is the shareholders can't do anything about it so the Executives just take as much as they can get away with.  I think American executives started to figure this out in the 80s and the train is been runaway ever since.

I mean that  position and opinion sounds nice, but the correlation would say something different.

Highly paid American executives have lead American industry to dominate on a global level. Most of the biggest and most successful companies are American.  I realize this is just a correlation and not necessarily causation, but it does lend credibility to the practice.

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #164 on: May 13, 2021, 01:25:51 PM »
What I firmly disagree with is a bunch of outsiders who are not involved in that chain looking at a big number and crying foul.

I own index funds that cover most major companies in the world.  I'm an insider, not an outsider - and I cry foul at ridiculous CEO salaries.  The board of these companies doesn't give a fuck about insiders like me though.



Your shares have just as much say as any other shareholder... democracy. Every shareholder should be looking out for the best interest of their shares. Not perfect, but not totally broken either.

Not really.

"Index funds now control half the U.S. stock mutual fund market, giving the biggest funds enormous power to influence decisions and demand better returns at the companies in which they invest trillions of dollars.

But the leading U.S. index fund firms, BlackRock Inc, Vanguard Group and State Street Corp, rarely use that clout. Instead, they overwhelmingly support the decisions and pay packages of executives at the companies in their portfolios, including the worst performers, according to a Reuters analysis of their shareholder-voting records."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-funds-index-specialreports-idUSKBN1WN107

You actively invest in those funds. If you disagree with the people you are giving proxy to, that is on you. You can buy individual companies.

If you buy into "passive" investing (I do as well), you must accept what comes along with the passive part of that - ultimately it is your decision to do that though. I do not support anyone taking away my right to do that, even if its stupid.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 01:28:36 PM by Simpleton »

jeromedawg

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #165 on: May 13, 2021, 01:34:35 PM »
What I firmly disagree with is a bunch of outsiders who are not involved in that chain looking at a big number and crying foul.

I own index funds that cover most major companies in the world.  I'm an insider, not an outsider - and I cry foul at ridiculous CEO salaries.  The board of these companies doesn't give a fuck about insiders like me though.



Your shares have just as much say as any other shareholder... democracy. Every shareholder should be looking out for the best interest of their shares. Not perfect, but not totally broken either.

Not really.

"Index funds now control half the U.S. stock mutual fund market, giving the biggest funds enormous power to influence decisions and demand better returns at the companies in which they invest trillions of dollars.

But the leading U.S. index fund firms, BlackRock Inc, Vanguard Group and State Street Corp, rarely use that clout. Instead, they overwhelmingly support the decisions and pay packages of executives at the companies in their portfolios, including the worst performers, according to a Reuters analysis of their shareholder-voting records."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-funds-index-specialreports-idUSKBN1WN107

You actively invest in those funds. If you disagree with the people you are giving proxy to, that is on you. You can buy individual companies.

If you buy into "passive" investing (I do as well), you must accept what comes along with the passive part of that - ultimately it is your decision to do that though. I do not support anyone taking away my right to do that, even if its stupid.

Isn't the point being made here that shareholders actually don't have as much say as it is "believed" they do? The thought is that, as a shareholder, your vote matters 110%... based on the excerpt from that article, it seems that's not really the case at all.

So how do you actually resolve *this* issue?

Advising that someone dump their full position in "protest" of it (and encouraging them to buy individual stocks) doesn't seem like a very useful solution.  Now, if you could convince every other shareholder to do this, maybe it would make sense hahaha...

bwall

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #166 on: May 13, 2021, 01:45:31 PM »
Quote
CEO's in the USA are grossly overpaid when compared to their peers in Japan and Germany. The CEO of Toyota, a much larger company than McDonald's, received $1.86 million in total compensation in 2020.

If I was a shareholder (the one ultimately employing the CEO), I know which one I would prefer! Poor example!

Why do you give the credit to McDonald's CEO and not to McDonald's employees? The employees are the ones earning the money for the company, not the CEO.

The chart also demonstrates there is plenty of scope to raise the employee's wages, if the desire existed in management.

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #167 on: May 13, 2021, 01:52:54 PM »
Quote
CEO's in the USA are grossly overpaid when compared to their peers in Japan and Germany. The CEO of Toyota, a much larger company than McDonald's, received $1.86 million in total compensation in 2020.

If I was a shareholder (the one ultimately employing the CEO), I know which one I would prefer! Poor example!

Why do you give the credit to McDonald's CEO and not to McDonald's employees? The employees are the ones earning the money for the company, not the CEO.

The chart also demonstrates there is plenty of scope to raise the employee's wages, if the desire existed in management.

Surely it is both who are responsible for the success of the companies. The franchisees and their employees as well (which are seperate).

I do not think though that it is the corporations job to pay more than what it deems to be the optimal wage to get the optimal results.  I also do not agree that a rising stock price has anything to do with the ability to meaningfully raise wages. Restaurants typically have razor thing margins - what you are seeing in that chart is more a matter of growing scale rather than growing margins.

Ultimately though, I think labor should be a voluntary arrangement between employer and employee.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 02:00:54 PM by Simpleton »

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #168 on: May 13, 2021, 01:55:58 PM »
What I firmly disagree with is a bunch of outsiders who are not involved in that chain looking at a big number and crying foul.

I own index funds that cover most major companies in the world.  I'm an insider, not an outsider - and I cry foul at ridiculous CEO salaries.  The board of these companies doesn't give a fuck about insiders like me though.



Your shares have just as much say as any other shareholder... democracy. Every shareholder should be looking out for the best interest of their shares. Not perfect, but not totally broken either.

Not really.

"Index funds now control half the U.S. stock mutual fund market, giving the biggest funds enormous power to influence decisions and demand better returns at the companies in which they invest trillions of dollars.

But the leading U.S. index fund firms, BlackRock Inc, Vanguard Group and State Street Corp, rarely use that clout. Instead, they overwhelmingly support the decisions and pay packages of executives at the companies in their portfolios, including the worst performers, according to a Reuters analysis of their shareholder-voting records."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-funds-index-specialreports-idUSKBN1WN107

You actively invest in those funds. If you disagree with the people you are giving proxy to, that is on you. You can buy individual companies.

If you buy into "passive" investing (I do as well), you must accept what comes along with the passive part of that - ultimately it is your decision to do that though. I do not support anyone taking away my right to do that, even if its stupid.

Isn't the point being made here that shareholders actually don't have as much say as it is "believed" they do? The thought is that, as a shareholder, your vote matters 110%... based on the excerpt from that article, it seems that's not really the case at all.

So how do you actually resolve *this* issue?

Advising that someone dump their full position in "protest" of it (and encouraging them to buy individual stocks) doesn't seem like a very useful solution.  Now, if you could convince every other shareholder to do this, maybe it would make sense hahaha...

What I would retort is that the average shareholder does not consider it to be a big problem, or has not bothered to educate themselves about what they are buying. If they did care, we would be seeing an exodus from passive funds into active funds. We are seeing the opposite.

Personally I DO think its a problem, but again I believe in letting people vote with their wallets. I don't believe we should be able to make that decision for anyone.

JLee

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #169 on: May 13, 2021, 02:01:56 PM »
Quote
To be clear, you are arguing that the very same system that created the utterly massive wealth gap we have today is also going to be responsible for fixing it all on its own, and your evidence is that the poors saw a whopping $2400 net worth increase over THREE YEARS:

To be clear I am not actually concerned about a wealth gap - I just addressed it because it was brought up. Personally I think a wealth gap is fine so long as all boats are rising.

Watch this.
https://speakola.com/political/margaret-thatcher-on-socialism-last-speech-1990

The median income raising is important though and it was at an all time high, so the MEDIAN POTENTIAL FOR WEALTH was at an all time high.

The wealth gap is much more a function of spendy-pants behavior than an actual income problem. I would have thought MMM readers would be the most aware of this. Having no money is not the same thing as having-had no money.

MMM wrote an entire blog about this with a really popular forum!

Go reread my post.

JLEE,

I did read your post. It was 100% about wealth gap. My whole rebuttal was that the wealth gap doesn't matter. Raising incomes/standards of living do. To be clear if someone chooses to spend all of thier rising income, and maintain a low net worth, that is fine by me - I wouldnt want to take away choice. This is why I think income gap is a better measure than wealth gap.

Your argument was that the wealth gap is closing, which it is not.

You quoted me, and said "go reread my post".

The post you quoted from me, had the first line "To be clear, I am not concerned with the wealth gap...."

Whether you're concerned with it or not, this is what I am arguing:

Quote from: Simpleton
Pre-covid median income was at an all time high as a result of this system and the wealth gap was shrinking.
https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-wealth-gap-shrinks-the-three-years-before-the-pandemic-saw-big-gains-for-lower-earners/
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/15/politics/census-median-income-poverty-2019/index.html

The article you posted used percentages to twist the math into making it appear that the wealth gap is shrinking, but it is not. It's objectively widening.

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #170 on: May 13, 2021, 03:25:59 PM »
Quote
To be clear, you are arguing that the very same system that created the utterly massive wealth gap we have today is also going to be responsible for fixing it all on its own, and your evidence is that the poors saw a whopping $2400 net worth increase over THREE YEARS:

To be clear I am not actually concerned about a wealth gap - I just addressed it because it was brought up. Personally I think a wealth gap is fine so long as all boats are rising.

Watch this.
https://speakola.com/political/margaret-thatcher-on-socialism-last-speech-1990

The median income raising is important though and it was at an all time high, so the MEDIAN POTENTIAL FOR WEALTH was at an all time high.

The wealth gap is much more a function of spendy-pants behavior than an actual income problem. I would have thought MMM readers would be the most aware of this. Having no money is not the same thing as having-had no money.

MMM wrote an entire blog about this with a really popular forum!

Go reread my post.

JLEE,

I did read your post. It was 100% about wealth gap. My whole rebuttal was that the wealth gap doesn't matter. Raising incomes/standards of living do. To be clear if someone chooses to spend all of thier rising income, and maintain a low net worth, that is fine by me - I wouldnt want to take away choice. This is why I think income gap is a better measure than wealth gap.

Your argument was that the wealth gap is closing, which it is not.

You quoted me, and said "go reread my post".

The post you quoted from me, had the first line "To be clear, I am not concerned with the wealth gap...."

Whether you're concerned with it or not, this is what I am arguing:

Quote from: Simpleton
Pre-covid median income was at an all time high as a result of this system and the wealth gap was shrinking.
https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-wealth-gap-shrinks-the-three-years-before-the-pandemic-saw-big-gains-for-lower-earners/
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/15/politics/census-median-income-poverty-2019/index.html

The article you posted used percentages to twist the math into making it appear that the wealth gap is shrinking, but it is not. It's objectively widening.

I mean you have taken what was clearly an aside point (since the conversation was revolving about income of low wage workers and ceo pay) and chosen to zero in on that but we can address it again.

Your argument is correct in an absolute number sense. The author is correct if we are talking about relative wealth. Personally I think relative wealth is more relevant.  $100k vs $1M seems worse than $4M vs $5M even though the absolute difference is less. Again refer to the Margaret Thatcher video I posted.

https://youtu.be/z6ccVfy6y_A

Ultimately I think I did also  address it by presenting the argument that rising incomes lead to higher wealth potential, which is ultimately what matters.

A huge percentage of people will always have a negative net worth regardless of income, that's an educational/preferencd issue, not a tax/ceo pay issue.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 03:44:04 PM by Simpleton »

JLee

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #171 on: May 13, 2021, 03:42:27 PM »
I mean you have taken what was clearly an aside point (since the conversation was revolving about income of low wage workers and ceo pay) and chosen to zero in on that but we can address it again.

Your argument is correct in an absolute number sense. The author is correct if we are talking about relative wealth. Personally I think relative wealth is more relevant.  $100k vs $1M seems worse than $4M vs $5M even though the absolute difference is less. Again refer to the Margaret Thatcher video I posted.

https://youtu.be/z6ccVfy6y_A

Ultimately I think I did also  address it by presenting the argument that rising incomes lead to higher wealth potential, which is ultimately what matters.

A huge percentage of people will always have a negative net worth regardless of income, that's an educational issue, not a tax/ceo pay issue.

The same holds true for low wage workers vs CEO pay.  CEO pay has increased astronomically and worker pay has not.

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #172 on: May 13, 2021, 03:47:18 PM »
I mean you have taken what was clearly an aside point (since the conversation was revolving about income of low wage workers and ceo pay) and chosen to zero in on that but we can address it again.

Your argument is correct in an absolute number sense. The author is correct if we are talking about relative wealth. Personally I think relative wealth is more relevant.  $100k vs $1M seems worse than $4M vs $5M even though the absolute difference is less. Again refer to the Margaret Thatcher video I posted.

https://youtu.be/z6ccVfy6y_A

Ultimately I think I did also  address it by presenting the argument that rising incomes lead to higher wealth potential, which is ultimately what matters.

A huge percentage of people will always have a negative net worth regardless of income, that's an educational issue, not a tax/ceo pay issue.

The same holds true for low wage workers vs CEO pay.  CEO pay has increased astronomically and worker pay has not.

1. Median income precovid was at an all time high.
2. Please actually watch the thatcher video!

JLee

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #173 on: May 13, 2021, 04:03:07 PM »
I mean you have taken what was clearly an aside point (since the conversation was revolving about income of low wage workers and ceo pay) and chosen to zero in on that but we can address it again.

Your argument is correct in an absolute number sense. The author is correct if we are talking about relative wealth. Personally I think relative wealth is more relevant.  $100k vs $1M seems worse than $4M vs $5M even though the absolute difference is less. Again refer to the Margaret Thatcher video I posted.

https://youtu.be/z6ccVfy6y_A

Ultimately I think I did also  address it by presenting the argument that rising incomes lead to higher wealth potential, which is ultimately what matters.

A huge percentage of people will always have a negative net worth regardless of income, that's an educational issue, not a tax/ceo pay issue.

The same holds true for low wage workers vs CEO pay.  CEO pay has increased astronomically and worker pay has not.

1. Median income precovid was at an all time high.
2. Please actually watch the thatcher video!

Yes, median income should basically always be at an all time high.  How much more of an all time high is CEO pay?

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #174 on: May 13, 2021, 04:22:58 PM »
I mean you have taken what was clearly an aside point (since the conversation was revolving about income of low wage workers and ceo pay) and chosen to zero in on that but we can address it again.

Your argument is correct in an absolute number sense. The author is correct if we are talking about relative wealth. Personally I think relative wealth is more relevant.  $100k vs $1M seems worse than $4M vs $5M even though the absolute difference is less. Again refer to the Margaret Thatcher video I posted.

https://youtu.be/z6ccVfy6y_A

Ultimately I think I did also  address it by presenting the argument that rising incomes lead to higher wealth potential, which is ultimately what matters.

A huge percentage of people will always have a negative net worth regardless of income, that's an educational issue, not a tax/ceo pay issue.

The same holds true for low wage workers vs CEO pay.  CEO pay has increased astronomically and worker pay has not.

1. Median income precovid was at an all time high.
2. Please actually watch the thatcher video!

Yes, median income should basically always be at an all time high.  How much more of an all time high is CEO pay?

My point was that this gap is irrelevant as long as everyone is rising.

Do you really think the ceo pay has any meaningful effect on the average worker? I see this line of thinking as populist scapegoating.

A little back of the envolope calculation shows me you could reduce CEO pay to $0 for the top 350 firms and you would only find $20 per capita. So maybe $30 a head if none of the S&P500 firms paid their CEO

https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-surged-14-in-2019-to-21-3-million-ceos-now-earn-320-times-as-much-as-a-typical-worker/

The fact that these CEO pay practices have arguably resulted in the biggest and best companies being in the USA has almost surely benefitted Americans more than $20-$30 per person.

badger1988

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #175 on: May 13, 2021, 05:03:37 PM »
Simpleton, just trying to understand your position on this topic.

If the lowest 25% of wage earners were to see a 1% increase in real wages while the top 25% simultaneously experienced a 100% increase, your opinion is that this wouldn't be a problem?

What if the starting point for your bottom earners is significant impoverishment, and a slight increase in wages does nothing to alleviate that? Is your stance that the relative rate of change is unimportant, no matter how severe the discrepancy?

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #176 on: May 13, 2021, 05:36:25 PM »
Simpleton, just trying to understand your position on this topic.

If the lowest 25% of wage earners were to see a 1% increase in real wages while the top 25% simultaneously experienced a 100% increase, your opinion is that this wouldn't be a problem?

What if the starting point for your bottom earners is significant impoverishment, and a slight increase in wages does nothing to alleviate that? Is your stance that the relative rate of change is unimportant, no matter how severe the discrepancy?

Lets start from where we are, not a hypothetical.

We are starting from a point where median earnings have essentially never been higher, in one of the most prosperous countries in the world (if not the most prosperous).

It got this way with the current system.

So if we go from that reality, to one where  everyone continues to become wealthier but at different rates, yes I would see that as a great thing.

I dont think equality is inherently a good thing. In fact I think policies that lead to greater equality of outcomes generally lead to less overall prosperity/motivation etc.

Equal opportunity is very important, equality is not.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 05:40:14 PM by Simpleton »

ender

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #177 on: May 13, 2021, 05:39:31 PM »
Simpleton, just trying to understand your position on this topic.

If the lowest 25% of wage earners were to see a 1% increase in real wages while the top 25% simultaneously experienced a 100% increase, your opinion is that this wouldn't be a problem?

What if the starting point for your bottom earners is significant impoverishment, and a slight increase in wages does nothing to alleviate that? Is your stance that the relative rate of change is unimportant, no matter how severe the discrepancy?

Lets start from where we are, not a hypothetical.

We are starting from a point where median earnings have essentially never been higher, in one of the most prosperous countries in the world (if not the most prosperous).

It got this way with the current system.

So if we go from that reality, to one where  everyone continues to become wealthier but at different rates, yes I would see that as a great thing.

I dont think equality is inherently a good thing. Equal opportunity sure, equality no.

Do you think the trajectories of those two income categories over the last decades is good to project out another 30 years?

Telecaster

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #178 on: May 13, 2021, 05:41:02 PM »
The fact that these CEO pay practices have arguably resulted in the biggest and best companies being in the USA has almost surely benefitted Americans more than $20-$30 per person.

You've mentioned that before, and I'm not sure it is true.  Compare the CEO pay for VW, Toyota, and GM.  Without Googling, I'm willing to wager the GM CEO makes more than the CEOs for VW and Toyota combined, despite GM being a smaller and in my opinion less well run company. 

Or say, compare the CEO compensation for GE and Siemens.  They are similar companies that compete in similar industries. GE is almost on life support and Siemens is profitable and growing.   Again, without Googling I bet it is likely the GE CEO makes an order of magnitude more money than Siemens' CEO, despite Siemens being a much better run company.   Compare also Boeing and Airbus;  BP and ExxonMobile; Banco Santander and Wells Fargo; Iberdrola and Duke;  etc.

There doesn't seem to be any correlation between how well the company performs internationally and CEO compensation.  In fact, it kinds of seems like the more the CEO gets paid the worse the company performs compared to its peers.  The outlier is tech, where it seems like the CEO needs to be a visionary and actually brings something unique to the table and there aren't many foreign tech giants.  But even in that case compensation is usually tied to the stock price, so the company has to actually perform well.   

I'll circle back to my original point.   The CEO of GM doesn't do a better job or add any more value to the company than the CEO of VW.  Yet she commands vastly higher compensation.  So exactly what is the justification for the extra money.  The board should find somebody cheaper who can do the same job.  We know it is possible because it happens all the time in other countries. 

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #179 on: May 13, 2021, 05:41:21 PM »
Simpleton, just trying to understand your position on this topic.

If the lowest 25% of wage earners were to see a 1% increase in real wages while the top 25% simultaneously experienced a 100% increase, your opinion is that this wouldn't be a problem?

What if the starting point for your bottom earners is significant impoverishment, and a slight increase in wages does nothing to alleviate that? Is your stance that the relative rate of change is unimportant, no matter how severe the discrepancy?

Lets start from where we are, not a hypothetical.

We are starting from a point where median earnings have essentially never been higher, in one of the most prosperous countries in the world (if not the most prosperous).

It got this way with the current system.

So if we go from that reality, to one where  everyone continues to become wealthier but at different rates, yes I would see that as a great thing.

I dont think equality is inherently a good thing. Equal opportunity sure, equality no.

Do you think the trajectories of those two income categories over the last decades is good to project out another 30 years?

If the median income continued to improve for the next 30 years, but some people improved even faster than that? Sign me up, I'm not an envious person.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 05:46:06 PM by Simpleton »

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #180 on: May 13, 2021, 05:44:26 PM »
The fact that these CEO pay practices have arguably resulted in the biggest and best companies being in the USA has almost surely benefitted Americans more than $20-$30 per person.

You've mentioned that before, and I'm not sure it is true.  Compare the CEO pay for VW, Toyota, and GM.  Without Googling, I'm willing to wager the GM CEO makes more than the CEOs for VW and Toyota combined, despite GM being a smaller and in my opinion less well run company. 

Or say, compare the CEO compensation for GE and Siemens.  They are similar companies that compete in similar industries. GE is almost on life support and Siemens is profitable and growing.   Again, without Googling I bet it is likely the GE CEO makes an order of magnitude more money than Siemens' CEO, despite Siemens being a much better run company.   Compare also Boeing and Airbus;  BP and ExxonMobile; Banco Santander and Wells Fargo; Iberdrola and Duke;  etc.

There doesn't seem to be any correlation between how well the company performs internationally and CEO compensation.  In fact, it kinds of seems like the more the CEO gets paid the worse the company performs compared to its peers.  The outlier is tech, where it seems like the CEO needs to be a visionary and actually brings something unique to the table and there aren't many foreign tech giants.  But even in that case compensation is usually tied to the stock price, so the company has to actually perform well.   

I'll circle back to my original point.   The CEO of GM doesn't do a better job or add any more value to the company than the CEO of VW.  Yet she commands vastly higher compensation.  So exactly what is the justification for the extra money.  The board should find somebody cheaper who can do the same job.  We know it is possible because it happens all the time in other countries.

You can cherry pick examples, but on the whole its hard to argue that;
(a) American companies highly compensate their ceos
(b) American companies dominate world commerce.
So you say there is no correlation, but I would say its highly correlated (though I admit correlation is not necessarily causation)

Perhaps its not that the American companies need different CEO's, maybe the other countries should spend more to attract the talent that American companies typically do.

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #181 on: May 13, 2021, 05:54:41 PM »
Simpleton, just trying to understand your position on this topic.

If the lowest 25% of wage earners were to see a 1% increase in real wages while the top 25% simultaneously experienced a 100% increase, your opinion is that this wouldn't be a problem?

What if the starting point for your bottom earners is significant impoverishment, and a slight increase in wages does nothing to alleviate that? Is your stance that the relative rate of change is unimportant, no matter how severe the discrepancy?

Lets start from where we are, not a hypothetical.

We are starting from a point where median earnings have essentially never been higher, in one of the most prosperous countries in the world (if not the most prosperous).

It got this way with the current system.

So if we go from that reality, to one where  everyone continues to become wealthier but at different rates, yes I would see that as a great thing.

I dont think equality is inherently a good thing. Equal opportunity sure, equality no.

Do you think the trajectories of those two income categories over the last decades is good to project out another 30 years?

If the median income continued to improve for the next 30 years, but some people improved even faster than that? Sign me up, I'm not an envious person.

Hmm.  Let's work this out logically.

We start out with a very egalitarian society.

The top 1% makes 50,000$ a year, the median income is 40,000$ a year.  Very little wealth gap.  Power is very similar between the rich and the poor.

Everyone keeps improving.  So the top 1% have salaries that go up by 100,000,000 per year.  Everyone else 'improves' by 1$ per year.

By year ten, the top 1% are making more than a trillion dollars a year.  The median income is 40,000$ per year.  Indexed for inflation, the median income is actually lower than a decade prior.  This is, in effect, a return to feudalism.  This sounds like a good idea to you?

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #182 on: May 13, 2021, 06:03:15 PM »
Simpleton, just trying to understand your position on this topic.

If the lowest 25% of wage earners were to see a 1% increase in real wages while the top 25% simultaneously experienced a 100% increase, your opinion is that this wouldn't be a problem?

What if the starting point for your bottom earners is significant impoverishment, and a slight increase in wages does nothing to alleviate that? Is your stance that the relative rate of change is unimportant, no matter how severe the discrepancy?

Lets start from where we are, not a hypothetical.

We are starting from a point where median earnings have essentially never been higher, in one of the most prosperous countries in the world (if not the most prosperous).

It got this way with the current system.

So if we go from that reality, to one where  everyone continues to become wealthier but at different rates, yes I would see that as a great thing.

I dont think equality is inherently a good thing. Equal opportunity sure, equality no.

Do you think the trajectories of those two income categories over the last decades is good to project out another 30 years?

If the median income continued to improve for the next 30 years, but some people improved even faster than that? Sign me up, I'm not an envious person.

Hmm.  Let's work this out logically.

We start out with a very egalitarian society.

The top 1% makes 50,000$ a year, the median income is 40,000$ a year.  Very little wealth gap.  Power is very similar between the rich and the poor.

Everyone keeps improving.  So the top 1% have salaries that go up by 100,000,000 per year.  Everyone else 'improves' by 1$ per year.

By year ten, the top 1% are making more than a trillion dollars a year.  The median income is 40,000$ per year.  Indexed for inflation, the median income is actually lower than a decade prior.  This is, in effect, a return to feudalism.  This sounds like a good idea to you?

The stat I gave you about median income being at an all time high was indexed for inflaiton, so if everyone is going up in REAL terms, yes that's a good thing.

But again, you have brought this far away from reality into an extreme example. Even still, yes, I would say even this is a good thing so long as the society maintained equality under the law etc. Also as long as that equal opportunity caveat is maintained.

Think of the extra tax revenue that would generate for everyone, and on top of that everyone continued to get richer every year before all that extra tax revenue!

If you want to play this game of going to extremes, why not just hand out exactly $50 grand to each worker each year regardless of what they do, how hard they work or if they work? Thats the other extreme. How well do you think that works out?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 06:06:03 PM by Simpleton »

badger1988

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #183 on: May 13, 2021, 06:25:06 PM »
Simpleton, where does your personal income lie in the distribution?

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #184 on: May 13, 2021, 06:39:09 PM »
Simpleton, just trying to understand your position on this topic.

If the lowest 25% of wage earners were to see a 1% increase in real wages while the top 25% simultaneously experienced a 100% increase, your opinion is that this wouldn't be a problem?

What if the starting point for your bottom earners is significant impoverishment, and a slight increase in wages does nothing to alleviate that? Is your stance that the relative rate of change is unimportant, no matter how severe the discrepancy?

Lets start from where we are, not a hypothetical.

We are starting from a point where median earnings have essentially never been higher, in one of the most prosperous countries in the world (if not the most prosperous).

It got this way with the current system.

So if we go from that reality, to one where  everyone continues to become wealthier but at different rates, yes I would see that as a great thing.

I dont think equality is inherently a good thing. Equal opportunity sure, equality no.

Do you think the trajectories of those two income categories over the last decades is good to project out another 30 years?

If the median income continued to improve for the next 30 years, but some people improved even faster than that? Sign me up, I'm not an envious person.

Hmm.  Let's work this out logically.

We start out with a very egalitarian society.

The top 1% makes 50,000$ a year, the median income is 40,000$ a year.  Very little wealth gap.  Power is very similar between the rich and the poor.

Everyone keeps improving.  So the top 1% have salaries that go up by 100,000,000 per year.  Everyone else 'improves' by 1$ per year.

By year ten, the top 1% are making more than a trillion dollars a year.  The median income is 40,000$ per year.  Indexed for inflation, the median income is actually lower than a decade prior.  This is, in effect, a return to feudalism.  This sounds like a good idea to you?

Obviously if you introduce absurd variables the outcomes become absurd very quickly.

Suffice to say that some people want a society that's very equal, and some want one that's halfway to feudalism (not many people want outright feudalism). It's okay to have a divergence of views in this regard.

For me, I'd want an estate tax that gets piled into children's education, to try to maintain equality of educational outcomes for children of different strata.

But beyond that, and having a basic safety net, I couldn't care less about inequality. People's talents and work ethics are, in fact, unequal, and it doesn't bother me at all if we have widely disparate outcomes. A surgeon, musician, pro athlete, top trial lawyer etc can do things that most people simply are not capable of, and never will be capable of. They deserve to be paid accordingly (by the market).

The surgeon who gets paid $1,000 per hour isn't paid for the 9 times out of 10 the operation goes smoothly...she is paid for the 1 time out of 10 it doesn't go smoothly, and for the arduous nature of medical school and the difficulty of having to get top marks over a lifetime to get there.

Inequality is fine by me if it's based on objective merit and if people have the chance to compete.  For example as long as the high school/university scholarship examinations are free to take and are balanced for socio-economic standing (as they are here - it's easier for students from poor families to get a university scholarship, as it should be), then it's a fair process and the most talented students reap the rewards, as they should.

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #185 on: May 13, 2021, 06:52:16 PM »

Obviously if you introduce absurd variables the outcomes become absurd very quickly.

Suffice to say that some people want a society that's very equal, and some want one that's halfway to feudalism (not many people want outright feudalism). It's okay to have a divergence of views in this regard.

For me, I'd want an estate tax that gets piled into children's education, to try to maintain equality of educational outcomes for children of different strata.

But beyond that, and having a basic safety net, I couldn't care less about inequality. People's talents and work ethics are, in fact, unequal, and it doesn't bother me at all if we have widely disparate outcomes. A surgeon, musician, pro athlete, top trial lawyer etc can do things that most people simply are not capable of, and never will be capable of. They deserve to be paid accordingly (by the market).

The surgeon who gets paid $1,000 per hour isn't paid for the 9 times out of 10 the operation goes smoothly...she is paid for the 1 time out of 10 it doesn't go smoothly, and for the arduous nature of medical school and the difficulty of having to get top marks over a lifetime to get there.

Inequality is fine by me if it's based on objective merit and if people have the chance to compete.  For example as long as the high school/university scholarship examinations are free to take and are balanced for socio-economic standing (as they are here - it's easier for students from poor families to get a university scholarship, as it should be), then it's a fair process and the most talented students reap the rewards, as they should.

Depends how you define merit.

In my professional world, someone who tackles the hardest work in the most needy populations will make a lot less than someone who does primarily cosmetic work in wealthy populations.

Unless your definition of "merit" just means "those who are best at making the most money", in which case, that's a pretty self fulfilling definition for justifying those with merit making more...

Those who make the most money are simply those who have figured out how and have prioritized making the most money. Not necessarily those who do the most high quality or beneficial work for society.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 06:54:29 PM by Malcat »

badger1988

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #186 on: May 13, 2021, 06:55:31 PM »
Simpleton, just trying to understand your position on this topic.

If the lowest 25% of wage earners were to see a 1% increase in real wages while the top 25% simultaneously experienced a 100% increase, your opinion is that this wouldn't be a problem?

What if the starting point for your bottom earners is significant impoverishment, and a slight increase in wages does nothing to alleviate that? Is your stance that the relative rate of change is unimportant, no matter how severe the discrepancy?

Lets start from where we are, not a hypothetical.

We are starting from a point where median earnings have essentially never been higher, in one of the most prosperous countries in the world (if not the most prosperous).

It got this way with the current system.

So if we go from that reality, to one where  everyone continues to become wealthier but at different rates, yes I would see that as a great thing.

I dont think equality is inherently a good thing. Equal opportunity sure, equality no.

Do you think the trajectories of those two income categories over the last decades is good to project out another 30 years?

If the median income continued to improve for the next 30 years, but some people improved even faster than that? Sign me up, I'm not an envious person.

Hmm.  Let's work this out logically.

We start out with a very egalitarian society.

The top 1% makes 50,000$ a year, the median income is 40,000$ a year.  Very little wealth gap.  Power is very similar between the rich and the poor.

Everyone keeps improving.  So the top 1% have salaries that go up by 100,000,000 per year.  Everyone else 'improves' by 1$ per year.

By year ten, the top 1% are making more than a trillion dollars a year.  The median income is 40,000$ per year.  Indexed for inflation, the median income is actually lower than a decade prior.  This is, in effect, a return to feudalism.  This sounds like a good idea to you?

The stat I gave you about median income being at an all time high was indexed for inflaiton, so if everyone is going up in REAL terms, yes that's a good thing.

But again, you have brought this far away from reality into an extreme example. Even still, yes, I would say even this is a good thing so long as the society maintained equality under the law etc. Also as long as that equal opportunity caveat is maintained.

Think of the extra tax revenue that would generate for everyone, and on top of that everyone continued to get richer every year before all that extra tax revenue!

If you want to play this game of going to extremes, why not just hand out exactly $50 grand to each worker each year regardless of what they do, how hard they work or if they work? Thats the other extreme. How well do you think that works out?

Do you believe that equal opportunity exists in our society today?

FWIW, I tend to agree with your position when you look at it in terms of median income. I think we are at a position where the typical median income household in the US has ample resources and opportunity. (This coming from someone with an 80th percentile income, so I'm aware even that perspective may be skewed). I am, however, concerned when statements like yours are applied to low income earners, and doubt that someone facing a lifetime of earning in the bottom 10% would agree.
 

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #187 on: May 13, 2021, 07:07:00 PM »

Obviously if you introduce absurd variables the outcomes become absurd very quickly.

Suffice to say that some people want a society that's very equal, and some want one that's halfway to feudalism (not many people want outright feudalism). It's okay to have a divergence of views in this regard.

For me, I'd want an estate tax that gets piled into children's education, to try to maintain equality of educational outcomes for children of different strata.

But beyond that, and having a basic safety net, I couldn't care less about inequality. People's talents and work ethics are, in fact, unequal, and it doesn't bother me at all if we have widely disparate outcomes. A surgeon, musician, pro athlete, top trial lawyer etc can do things that most people simply are not capable of, and never will be capable of. They deserve to be paid accordingly (by the market).

The surgeon who gets paid $1,000 per hour isn't paid for the 9 times out of 10 the operation goes smoothly...she is paid for the 1 time out of 10 it doesn't go smoothly, and for the arduous nature of medical school and the difficulty of having to get top marks over a lifetime to get there.

Inequality is fine by me if it's based on objective merit and if people have the chance to compete.  For example as long as the high school/university scholarship examinations are free to take and are balanced for socio-economic standing (as they are here - it's easier for students from poor families to get a university scholarship, as it should be), then it's a fair process and the most talented students reap the rewards, as they should.

Depends how you define merit.

In my professional world, someone who tackles the hardest work in the most needy populations will make a lot less than someone who does primarily cosmetic work in wealthy populations.

Unless your definition of "merit" just means "those who are best at making the most money", in which case, that's a pretty self fulfilling definition for justifying those with merit making more...

Those who make the most money are simply those who have figured out how and have prioritized making the most money. Not necessarily those who do the most high quality or beneficial work for society.

Merit to me is defined as whoever does the work that is hardest or least able (either due to ability or desire) to be done by the rest of the population. Most surgeons have merit because, as I said, the vast majority of people can do neither the work nor the preparatory study/exams to get there.

Reconstructive plastic surgery is much less lucrative than cosmetic plastic surgery. But that's something every surgeon chooses when he or she specialises. It doesn't sink the argument. As long as the choice is available.

I agree merit doesn't mean 'beneficial for society' but it means beneficial 'for someone' (in this case the cosmetic surgery patient, presumably).


Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #188 on: May 13, 2021, 07:09:45 PM »
Does equal opportunity exist? Depends how you define opportunity.

Clearly there is more progress that needs to be done to ensure that kids from poor families get adequate nourishment, schooling, social integration, reading, library access etc. I think we need to improve that.

Here where I live (Melbourne, Australia) I'd say we do a decent job of it. Always room for improvement. But one of the best things we do is that we scale scholarship entrance exams by the aggregate SES of the feeder school. So children who go to shitter schools have an easier time getting scholarships. It's an amazing system and something every school district should do. Instead of saying "hey you need a 1600 on the SAT to get into Harvard" we should be saying "hey 1 person per 200 students per school gets into Harvard." You would see the shitty schools get popular very quickly.

JLee

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #189 on: May 13, 2021, 07:14:30 PM »
Does equal opportunity exist? Depends how you define opportunity.

Clearly there is more progress that needs to be done to ensure that kids from poor families get adequate nourishment, schooling, social integration, reading, library access etc. I think we need to improve that.

Here where I live (Melbourne, Australia) I'd say we do a decent job of it. Always room for improvement. But one of the best things we do is that we scale scholarship entrance exams by the aggregate SES of the feeder school. So children who go to shitter schools have an easier time getting scholarships. It's an amazing system and something every school district should do. Instead of saying "hey you need a 1600 on the SAT to get into Harvard" we should be saying "hey 1 person per 200 students per school gets into Harvard." You would see the shitty schools get popular very quickly.

Yeah, things are definitely different in Australia vs the US.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/08/22/australias-middle-class-wealth-shows-how-far-america-has-fallen#:~:text=Unsurprisingly%2C%20a%20lot%20of%20the,per%20adult%20is%206.75%3A1.&text=Australia%20only%20has%2023%20million,million%2C%2013%20times%20as%20many.

mckaylabaloney

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #190 on: May 13, 2021, 07:42:44 PM »
The fact that these CEO pay practices have arguably resulted in the biggest and best companies being in the USA has almost surely benefitted Americans more than $20-$30 per person.

What do you base this on? What kind of data or information do you look to to determine that Americans benefit more from the presence of large companies than they would from higher wages?

Also (or perhaps relatedly), in this globalized world, what does it mean/how is it relevant for the companies to be "in" the USA? Do you mean the location of their headquarters? The markets where they list their common stock? Something else? Plenty of these "biggest and best companies" have loads of employees in other countries. In some cases the employees located elsewhere make more money, have more benefits, etc. than employees in the USA. Since McDonald's has come up in this thread, consider the case of McDonald's employees in Denmark: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mcdonalds-workers-denmark/. These benefits are the result of a strong union and don't seem to have anything to do with the location of the company's headquarters.

I'm guessing, though perhaps I'm wrong, that part of your thinking is that Americans benefit from large job creators being located in the USA (and thus offering jobs to Americans). But how many of them are truly job creators (and not just job shifters)? (This is a genuine question; I don't know the answer.) For example, some people hold up Amazon as a huge creator of jobs -- but how many of those jobs have simply shifted to Amazon from small- or medium-sized businesses that have closed as a result of Amazon's dominance? 
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 07:45:06 PM by mckaylabaloney »

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #191 on: May 13, 2021, 07:47:00 PM »
Simpleton, where does your personal income lie in the distribution?

Quite frankly this is a comically transparent attempt to discredit the arguments I am making without actually arguing the details.

I do well for myself, but I am not in the top 1% for Canada if that is what you are implying, which puts me way outside the top 1% for the USA. Not that it is your business.

Quote
Do you believe that equal opportunity exists in our society today?

Very hard to say - certainly I have never argued there is currently perfectly equal opportunity. I don't think that is ever possible to truly achieve.

Do I think its good enough currently? No.

I would argue that 99% of people living in the USA should not be crying about being dealt bad cards on the global scale.

Quote
Merit to me is defined as whoever does the work that is hardest or least able (either due to ability or desire) to be done by the rest of the population. Most surgeons have merit because, as I said, the vast majority of people can do neither the work nor the preparatory study/exams to get there.

Reconstructive plastic surgery is much less lucrative than cosmetic plastic surgery. But that's something every surgeon chooses when he or she specialises. It doesn't sink the argument. As long as the choice is available.

I agree merit doesn't mean 'beneficial for society' but it means beneficial 'for someone' (in this case the cosmetic surgery patient, presumably).

100% agree with all above, though I would say MOST People COULD do the work - its the delayed gratification/preparatory study/exams to get there that most people will not do.



« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 07:50:59 PM by Simpleton »

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #192 on: May 13, 2021, 07:55:01 PM »
I suspect most people could not do the work of being a surgeon any more than they could do the work of being a pro musician or pro athlete. They just do not have the competence/ability/singlemindedness/whatever. That's not an argument against merit though.

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #193 on: May 13, 2021, 08:04:02 PM »
The fact that these CEO pay practices have arguably resulted in the biggest and best companies being in the USA has almost surely benefitted Americans more than $20-$30 per person.

What do you base this on? What kind of data or information do you look to to determine that Americans benefit more from the presence of large companies than they would from higher wages?

Also (or perhaps relatedly), in this globalized world, what does it mean/how is it relevant for the companies to be "in" the USA? Do you mean the location of their headquarters? The markets where they list their common stock? Something else? Plenty of these "biggest and best companies" have loads of employees in other countries. In some cases the employees located elsewhere make more money, have more benefits, etc. than employees in the USA. Since McDonald's has come up in this thread, consider the case of McDonald's employees in Denmark: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mcdonalds-workers-denmark/. These benefits are the result of a strong union and don't seem to have anything to do with the location of the company's headquarters.

I'm guessing, though perhaps I'm wrong, that part of your thinking is that Americans benefit from large job creators being located in the USA (and thus offering jobs to Americans). But how many of them are truly job creators (and not just job shifters)? (This is a genuine question; I don't know the answer.) For example, some people hold up Amazon as a huge creator of jobs -- but how many of those jobs have simply shifted to Amazon from small- or medium-sized businesses that have closed as a result of Amazon's dominance?

There is a lot to unpack with your question.

Consumers certainly benefit from scale. The bigger the company, typically the more efficiently they can deliver a service. From that perspective there are all sorts of benefits to the consumer. An example is how Walmart dominated the past few decades. The better media narrative is how horrible Walmart is, but people vote with their wallets. Consumers have LOVED Walmart and benefitted from its creation.

In terms of Job creator vs Job shifter, I think to be honest most bigger/better companies typically destroy jobs. This is disruptive in the short term, but in the long term this is a good thing. This has been the story of progress forever. Its that whole thing that I don't want to type out about tilling the field vs using a tractor.

Regarding the benefit of being in the USA, there are certainly tax advantages for the nation, there is also a virtuous feedback loop from having highly successful companies. Look at Silicon Valley.

I don't have any study to prove it, but I would be willing to wager a lot of money that the USA would be in much worse shape if the S&P500 companies all decided to redomecile to Europe or something.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 08:06:27 PM by Simpleton »

Metalcat

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #194 on: May 13, 2021, 08:06:57 PM »

Obviously if you introduce absurd variables the outcomes become absurd very quickly.

Suffice to say that some people want a society that's very equal, and some want one that's halfway to feudalism (not many people want outright feudalism). It's okay to have a divergence of views in this regard.

For me, I'd want an estate tax that gets piled into children's education, to try to maintain equality of educational outcomes for children of different strata.

But beyond that, and having a basic safety net, I couldn't care less about inequality. People's talents and work ethics are, in fact, unequal, and it doesn't bother me at all if we have widely disparate outcomes. A surgeon, musician, pro athlete, top trial lawyer etc can do things that most people simply are not capable of, and never will be capable of. They deserve to be paid accordingly (by the market).

The surgeon who gets paid $1,000 per hour isn't paid for the 9 times out of 10 the operation goes smoothly...she is paid for the 1 time out of 10 it doesn't go smoothly, and for the arduous nature of medical school and the difficulty of having to get top marks over a lifetime to get there.

Inequality is fine by me if it's based on objective merit and if people have the chance to compete.  For example as long as the high school/university scholarship examinations are free to take and are balanced for socio-economic standing (as they are here - it's easier for students from poor families to get a university scholarship, as it should be), then it's a fair process and the most talented students reap the rewards, as they should.

Depends how you define merit.

In my professional world, someone who tackles the hardest work in the most needy populations will make a lot less than someone who does primarily cosmetic work in wealthy populations.

Unless your definition of "merit" just means "those who are best at making the most money", in which case, that's a pretty self fulfilling definition for justifying those with merit making more...

Those who make the most money are simply those who have figured out how and have prioritized making the most money. Not necessarily those who do the most high quality or beneficial work for society.

Merit to me is defined as whoever does the work that is hardest or least able (either due to ability or desire) to be done by the rest of the population. Most surgeons have merit because, as I said, the vast majority of people can do neither the work nor the preparatory study/exams to get there.

Reconstructive plastic surgery is much less lucrative than cosmetic plastic surgery. But that's something every surgeon chooses when he or she specialises. It doesn't sink the argument. As long as the choice is available.

I agree merit doesn't mean 'beneficial for society' but it means beneficial 'for someone' (in this case the cosmetic surgery patient, presumably).

So basically, yes, your definition of merit ultimately amounts to whatever people are willing to pay for it.

So a cleft palate surgeon makes less than a nose job surgeon despite the same skills, but because the nose surgeon gets more because they decided they wanted to make more. However, neither of them make as much as the CEOs of medical insurance companies. Who likely have less education and skills, but are much better and more focused on making money.

It's easy to use simple, straight forward examples of doctors and lawyers and say "see, they demonstrated their abilities, did extensive training, and are fairly compensated in proportion to their hard work and education" when comparing them to many lower skilled, lower paying jobs, and then determine that meritocracy exists and makes sense.

Well it doesn't. There are a few, very limited fields where it holds up just a bit under scrutiny, but those fields are the exception, not the rule.

Why does a cell phone salesperson make more than an addictions counselor? Because there's more money in selling cell phones, not because it takes more skill. Because sales skills will always pay more than helping skills.


So as I said, if your definition of merit means "those who make the most money", then sure, of course using meritocracy as a justification for inequality can't be argued with because it's self justifying.

I have to say though, I always assume that anyone who believes that money follows a meritocracy hasn't spent much time with the very wealthy. Most are really not all that impressive for the most part compared to typical doctor/lawyer/professor level performers.

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #195 on: May 13, 2021, 08:19:00 PM »
Quote
I have to say though, I always assume that anyone who believes that money follows a meritocracy hasn't spent much time with the very wealthy. Most are really not all that impressive for the most part compared to typical doctor/lawyer/professor level performers.

The people paying them beg to differ with you.

In all seriousness though, making more money doesnt mean you are a better/smarter person. You are just willing to deliver a service that many other people are not.

This is how we ensure that everyone doesnt decide to be video game testers for careers.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #196 on: May 13, 2021, 08:23:22 PM »
Quote
Why does a cell phone salesperson make more than an addictions counselor? Because there's more money in selling cell phones, not because it takes more skill. Because sales skills will always pay more than helping skills.

Depends what kind of addictions counsellor. If you counselled the rich, you'd make a motza. But yes, jobs that purely focus on the social good, for clients/customers who have little money, will pay very little. Not a great outcome, but better than any alternative I can think of.

Quote
I have to say though, I always assume that anyone who believes that money follows a meritocracy hasn't spent much time with the very wealthy. Most are really not all that impressive for the most part compared to typical doctor/lawyer/professor level performers.

I have spent enough time with the very rich (8 figures plus) to know that this is true. Often they did not make their own wealth - they merely inherited it and rode the wave. My inheritance tax concept would put paid to that. I would agree that a healthy meritocracy requires a punitive inheritance tax. The resistance (from both left and right of the political spectrum) to an inheritance tax astounds me. Why would you want to cheat (via an inheritance) in the game of life anyway? It's not your money. Don't use it.

The very rich who were self-made often did it through rather shady business practices (which is unfortunate but not a mark against meritocracy as such) or they did it through being lucky and catching onto whatever thing was the wave - a lot of property developers who got rich in the 2000s fall into this. Well, that may not be merit strictly speaking but rather luck, but I don't see any easy solution to this (in any form of society) other than requiring a relatively transparent free market.

badger1988

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #197 on: May 13, 2021, 08:32:30 PM »
Simpleton, where does your personal income lie in the distribution?

Quite frankly this is a comically transparent attempt to discredit the arguments I am making without actually arguing the details.

I do well for myself, but I am not in the top 1% for Canada if that is what you are implying, which puts me way outside the top 1% for the USA. Not that it is your business.


Thats a completely fair response to my question. The way I phrased it does sound a bit like I'm trying to lead you into some sort of a trap. I really was just wanting to gain context for where your perspective is coming from, not trying to imply that you were out-of-touch or assume you were a high earner. As I alluded to earlier, I personally have always been a median+ earner, so I don't have any experience to lean on for perspective other than some limited time I have spent with people who have lived in poverty. My opinion used to be very closely aligned with just about everything you are saying in this thread. Over time, that has evolved as I am starting to realize that I was probably making assumptions based out of my experiences rather than the realities that others face in their own lives. I'm not trying to discredit your arguments. I am trying to get you to consider what argument you would make if you found yourself in a different set of circumstances. Do you truly believe you would hold the same opinion regardless of your income? I don't know how my opinions would change, but I'm certain they would be affected.

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #198 on: May 13, 2021, 09:12:00 PM »
I have spent enough time with the very rich (8 figures plus) to know that this is true. Often they did not make their own wealth - they merely inherited it and rode the wave. My inheritance tax concept would put paid to that. I would agree that a healthy meritocracy requires a punitive inheritance tax. The resistance (from both left and right of the political spectrum) to an inheritance tax astounds me. Why would you want to cheat (via an inheritance) in the game of life anyway? It's not your money. Don't use it.

I see a lot of merit in Bidens plan to remove the stepped-up cost basis in estate transfer. I think that was tax avoidance plain and simple. Quite frankly until recently I didn't even know this existed. He is proposing a system similar to what Canada already has in place.

I do not think that there should be an additional death penalty though. I don't think just because someone dies suddenly of a heart attack before they get a chance to spend their money, that it should suddenly belong to the government. Tax the gains as though they sold it though is fair to me.


mckaylabaloney

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #199 on: May 13, 2021, 09:39:05 PM »
The better media narrative is how horrible Walmart is, but people vote with their wallets. Consumers have LOVED Walmart and benefitted from its creation.

This doesn't follow, because, among other reasons, it's a collective action problem. If Walmart has the lowest prices, consumers are individually incentivized to shop there -- even if the collective result of all those consumers shopping there is that small businesses close and some of those very same consumers lose their jobs, or competition is lessened (which also ultimately harms consumers), or [insert other incredibly well-documented bad consequence of Walmart sucking up all the business in a community]. Plus, lots of people don't have the privilege of "voting with their wallets"; their income is too low to make those kinds of choices. And for those who can choose, most people are not equipped to connect their choice to shop at Walmart to long-term consequences for them and/or their communities -- the connections are simply too invisible, or people aren't paying attention, or whatever. The fact that people have chosen to shop at Walmart, for perfectly rational reasons, doesn't mean they've ultimately benefited from it on average. (To be clear: maybe they have! I would be surprised, but my point is just that the argument doesn't follow.)

As I read your argument, you're saying that Americans have benefited from big business because consumers typically pay less for products. Okay, sure. But what are the underlying costs of those cheaper prices? That's what I'm getting at. Have all these big businesses actually resulted in better outcomes (in wages, health, happiness, life outcomes, what have you) for the average American? What's happening to competition and how does that affect prices in the long run? How are communities affected in less tangible ways (mental health, social ties, etc.) when Walmart (well, now...Amazon) takes over and puts the little guy out of business?

You originally said:

The fact that these CEO pay practices have arguably resulted in the biggest and best companies being in the USA has almost surely benefitted Americans more than $20-$30 per person.

Whether people are paying less for stuff is undoubtedly part of that. But it's only part of the equation.

In terms of Job creator vs Job shifter, I think to be honest most bigger/better companies typically destroy jobs. This is disruptive in the short term, but in the long term this is a good thing. This has been the story of progress forever. Its that whole thing that I don't want to type out about tilling the field vs using a tractor.

Well, look, I'm no economist, so maybe I'm talking out of my ass. But I'm personally not sure that the transition from less-evolved technology to more-evolved technology is super comparable, in terms of long-term societal benefits, to a transition from lots of jobs at lots of places to almost as many jobs at one place (or, okay, a few places).  I hear you on "they're both an increase in efficiency," but the latter involves a concentration of power (over wages, working conditions, etc.), which carries all sorts of other issues.* (All the current reporting on working conditions at Amazon--which used to be articles about working conditions at Walmart--doesn't come out of nowhere.) Is it good for society, because it's more efficient, when Amazon sucks up all the jobs in a community (including, in some places, the jobs that used to be at Walmart)? I mean, to get back to Walmart, they've been ubiquitous for decades now--certainly long enough to understand at least some of the long-term consequences. Are the communities where Main St. slowly shuttered after Walmart came in better off now, on the whole?

*I might feel differently about this if America actually had robust employment protections and/or widespread unionization, and the jobs at these big businesses were paying living wages and providing strong benefits--in short, giving people great lives. As I'm sure you can tell, from all available information, I personally don't think that's what's happening.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 09:41:52 PM by mckaylabaloney »

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!