Author Topic: Punitive tax regime on international equities  (Read 1312 times)

lost and found

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Punitive tax regime on international equities
« on: September 09, 2023, 02:47:34 AM »
Hello all

I'm coming to you all the way from New Zealand and have a question about whether the traditional approach to FI - of investing in diversified index funds - really works for us.

Let me explain....

We seem to have a very different method of taxing equities than the US.  The tax department imposes what is effectively a wealth tax on overseas equities. At a minimum this is 0.38% and a maximum of 1.95% of the investment balance, per year.

There is quite some complexity behind it and the eventual rate for the year depends on an individuals margin tax rate and whether the investment returns more of less than 5%. However, the important point is that it is unavoidable and for the average investor this represents a tax drag of close to 1% on average per year.

How does this compare to the US and would this make you look for an alternate way of achieving FI?

Thank you


merryt

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Re: Punitive tax regime on international equities
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2023, 04:52:10 AM »
This would effect the process in two ways, accumulations and draw down. For drawdown:  tomorrow dw and i found out that 2.75-3% was the new swr goal because of a new tax, we would sit down and talk about do we want to get out by being frugal or by more work. We reduced our swr a few times already, so a swr of 2.75-3% would be be hard, but fine.

It might have been a bigger deal during the accumulation years. I feel like as part of learning to invest you should examine the specific options of your area and find what is the best for you. I tried a few different things before calming down and putting everything in vtsax. Maybe if VTSAX wasn't the right choice because of taxes one of the other thing would have stuck around.

That being said. Life isn't fair, each country is different. Salaries, health insurance, and cultural expectations affect different aspects of the journey. General principals are valuable if you retire at 30, 55, or 70.

deborah

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Re: Punitive tax regime on international equities
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2023, 06:36:17 AM »
Are you getting a bit mixed up about the tax? Because I’m Australian, and not in the US, every year I need to fill out some paperwork for any US investments (including those within an index fund) so that the US isn’t taxing me.

Goanywhere

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Re: Punitive tax regime on international equities
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2023, 12:21:21 PM »
Are you getting a bit mixed up about the tax? Because I’m Australian, and not in the US, every year I need to fill out some paperwork for any US investments (including those within an index fund) so that the US isn’t taxing me.

No certainly not.  This is a New Zealand tax on international equities. 

reeshau

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Re: Punitive tax regime on international equities
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2023, 01:05:23 PM »

How does this compare to the US and would this make you look for an alternate way of achieving FI?


It may make you weep, but the US has special tax rates for capital gains that are favorable to wages.  It's complicated, of course, but as long as they are long term (held for a year or more) the tax rate could be 0%.

Of course, this is in a country that makes you pay for your own health care, with thousands of dollars of guaranteed cost for insurance, and jeopardy for $15,000+ in deductibles (first spending, before insurance kicks in) quite common.  Per year.  Many people might trade those two things.

But  these are incremental things.  Plenty of people save for retirement through stock mutual funds with 1% fees or more.  We don't like it--there are better alternatives, when the fees are charged by companies themselves--but they do it, and successfully.  When looking at alternatives, you have to compare them relative to each other.  And nothing touches stocks, particularly US stocks.

One thing to grasp about the chart below is that it is on a semi-logarithmic scale.  If the scale was linear, most of the lines would look entirely flat compared to stock performance.  Stocks bring back literally orders of magnitude more than "safer" (in the short term) investments.  Real estate would fare better, but still be far outstripped by stocks over lifespan lengths of time.  (many people find success in real estate investing, too, though)

The most important thing is what you are comfortable with.  You can save your way to retirement, or "earn" it by taking smart investment risks.  But along the way, you should be able to sleep at night.  If the increased taxes and complications of figuring them out aren't worth it to you, then you might find another way.  That way will have its own advantages and disadvantages.

In doing some research, I also ran across a US implication for you.  The US has much lower limits (a mere $60,000) for estate tax exemption for certain non-residents.  This is something hardly any US citizen worries about, as our estate tax exemption is currently $10M--per person!  Although that might drop down to a measly $5M in 2025, when the expansion expires in current law.

Scandium

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Re: Punitive tax regime on international equities
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2023, 12:45:29 PM »
on overseas equities.

First of all need to understand what this means. Is this stocks in foreign companies bought on foreign exchanges? Is it/is it not stocks in foreign companies bought through NZ exchanges? Are there NZ mutual funds that track foreign indexes, and would that be subject to the tax?
E.g, I buy VTIAX for "foreign shares", but it is domestic shares of a US based mutual fund. So per this tax (the way you phrased it) I would think it would not apply; not direct ownership of foreign shares. Or maybe it would. THe law would have to specify how mutual fund shares are threated.

Second thing would be how do you minimize it? How are the options for domestic shares only? I imagine tiny market, is that too high risk? How much is acceptable? Could you hold say 50-50 domestic/foreign, and thus cut your tax in half?

reeshau

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Re: Punitive tax regime on international equities
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2023, 02:21:25 PM »
Those are fair questions to ask, in general.  But it seems like the New Zealand FIF tax has the bases fairly well covered.

Scandium

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Re: Punitive tax regime on international equities
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2023, 11:47:08 AM »
Those are fair questions to ask, in general.  But it seems like the New Zealand FIF tax has the bases fairly well covered.

Indeed. And we see there;
These aren’t FIFs
Shares listed on the NZ sharemarket
NZ domiciled funds and ETFs that invest in foreign markets

So just buy NZ listed ETF for foreign markets. Which per my 2 min google there seems to be plenty of:
https://smartshares.co.nz/types-of-funds
They even specifically say:
Our International Shares ETFs offer low cost exposures to regions and countries around the world, all listed on the NZX
and
"The funds enable you to build a global portfolio in NZD, without having to worry about the complexity of managing foreign currencies or overseas tax."

So I don't see any reason why anyone in NZ should have to pay this tax, if you're just looking to buy index funds!

reeshau

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Re: Punitive tax regime on international equities
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2023, 12:16:32 PM »
Those are fair questions to ask, in general.  But it seems like the New Zealand FIF tax has the bases fairly well covered.

Indeed. And we see there;
These aren’t FIFs
Shares listed on the NZ sharemarket
NZ domiciled funds and ETFs that invest in foreign markets

So just buy NZ listed ETF for foreign markets. Which per my 2 min google there seems to be plenty of:
https://smartshares.co.nz/types-of-funds
They even specifically say:
Our International Shares ETFs offer low cost exposures to regions and countries around the world, all listed on the NZX
and
"The funds enable you to build a global portfolio in NZD, without having to worry about the complexity of managing foreign currencies or overseas tax."

So I don't see any reason why anyone in NZ should have to pay this tax, if you're just looking to buy index funds!

If you read a bit further down, you see:

"Indirect FIF tax
Unfortunately FIF tax is unavoidable even if you use a NZ domiciled fund to invest in overseas assets. Given these funds invest in FIFs themselves, they still need to pay FIF tax to the NZ government – tax which is then passed onto you, the investor. Therefore while you’re not paying FIF tax directly to the IRD, you still end up paying it indirectly."

If you look closely, the NZ funds promise to avoid  "...the complexity of managing foreign currencies or overseas tax."  Not that there are no foreign currencies or taxes.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2023, 12:59:05 PM by reeshau »

Scandium

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Re: Punitive tax regime on international equities
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2023, 03:40:50 PM »
Those are fair questions to ask, in general.  But it seems like the New Zealand FIF tax has the bases fairly well covered.

Indeed. And we see there;
These aren’t FIFs
Shares listed on the NZ sharemarket
NZ domiciled funds and ETFs that invest in foreign markets

So just buy NZ listed ETF for foreign markets. Which per my 2 min google there seems to be plenty of:
https://smartshares.co.nz/types-of-funds
They even specifically say:
Our International Shares ETFs offer low cost exposures to regions and countries around the world, all listed on the NZX
and
"The funds enable you to build a global portfolio in NZD, without having to worry about the complexity of managing foreign currencies or overseas tax."

So I don't see any reason why anyone in NZ should have to pay this tax, if you're just looking to buy index funds!

If you read a bit further down, you see:

"Indirect FIF tax
Unfortunately FIF tax is unavoidable even if you use a NZ domiciled fund to invest in overseas assets. Given these funds invest in FIFs themselves, they still need to pay FIF tax to the NZ government – tax which is then passed onto you, the investor. Therefore while you’re not paying FIF tax directly to the IRD, you still end up paying it indirectly."

If you look closely, the NZ funds promise to avoid  "...the complexity of managing foreign currencies or overseas tax."  Not that there are no foreign currencies or taxes.

well that's some awful taxes. Then I recommend OP leave that hellhole!