Author Topic: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread  (Read 7715 times)

ChpBstrd

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Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« on: June 14, 2022, 07:33:05 PM »
The reasons for stock market pessimism are clear - inflation, rate hikes, etc. - but to improve my thought process, I want to hear the other side of the story. At some point this bear market will be over and stock prices will swing in the other direction. If you come across analyst opinions, articles, media, etc. promoting the unpopular view that there's more upside than downside ahead, please post them here.

I'll start. This analyst is actually bullish on bonds and large caps:

Quote
Of the period from the Persian Gulf War in 1991 to the financial crisis of 2008 until now, the current market environment is the third most bearish, Bailin says, referring to data he reviewed last week.

“That’s pretty incredible,” he says. “You have no banking problem, most people don’t have a debt problem, most people have a job, and meanwhile, this is the third most negative attitude of consumer sentiment.”

If there is a small economic downturn, “it won’t be of enormous consequence,” relative to those earlier periods, Bailin says. “Why would you want your money out of the market given that pessimism is far greater than the reality?”

https://www.barrons.com/articles/future-returns-how-to-invest-in-a-period-of-normalization-01655227713?mod=hp_PENTA

And here's another odds-based approach. If, since World War 2, someone bought the S&P500 on the day it hit -20% from its recent peak, they would earn an average of 22.7% in 12 months, and...

Quote
...in 10 of the 12 cases since World War II you were sitting on a profit in a year’s time. Those aren’t terrible odds.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/those-who-buy-stocks-the-day-after-the-s-p-500-enters-a-bear-market-have-made-an-average-of-22-7-in-12-months-11655224023?mod=home-page

« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 07:40:07 PM by ChpBstrd »

NorCal

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2022, 09:23:34 PM »
I saw an article a few days back, although I can't find it at the moment.  It looks like the ocean freight prices have dropped pretty dramatically from their peak.  I view this as a good sign on one of the key business input costs, and the starting point of a resolution for the port congestion.  It's one positive data point in a sea of bad news.

Also remember, that the stock market is always forward looking.  The point that it will start to recover is likely not when inflation hits 3% or some magical number, but when it starts moving in the right direction.  A drop from 10% to 9.5% would be enough to start a recovery as long as it is part of a trend and not just a blip.

Personally, I do think there is a lot to be pessimistic about over the next 1-3 years, but a ton to be optimistic about over the next decade.  It all depends on your timeframe.  I'm happy to buy and hold stocks on the way down.

BicycleB

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2022, 09:38:39 PM »
Article gives several encouraging points about historical positive results after S&P bear market is established, including the statement that within 3 months of the bear market date, the market is higher in 75% of cases since 1943, by an average of 6.4%.

(Does state that on averagej, reaching the bottom takes 52 days after declaration of bear market).

https://www.marketwatch.com/articles/bear-market-stocks-whats-next-51655150790?mod=mw_more_headlines

theninthwall

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2022, 06:54:34 AM »
Thank you for starting this thread! While all the advice says to hold on at times like this, there is always that nagging voice telling me "You've got it all wrong, sell it all!" It helps to have some rays of sunshine among the doom and gloom.

harvestbook

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2022, 09:47:27 AM »
The fact that there is near-unanimous belief in a 50 percent plunge and/or major recession gives me a lot of comfort because the majority is never right. I wouldn't be surprised by a recession but compared to history, a mild pandemic, mild inflation, a minor war, and rising interest rates don't really seem like that big a deal. I wouldn't be surprised if we spent the rest of the year in a trading range of +-10 percent of the bear line.

Either way, being an optimist pays.

I like Josh Brown's perspectives, since he's always lifting the curtain on the insanity of Wall Street while still cashing its checks:
https://thereformedbroker.com/2022/06/15/remember-what-happened-last-time/


vand

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2022, 11:08:52 AM »
SPY to quadruple this decade?
Pretty good bull argument put forward here:

https://ofdollarsanddata.com/the-investors-fallacy/
https://ofdollarsanddata.com/are-we-bullish-enough/

Quote
'From January 2000 to December 2019, the S&P 500 compounded at a rate of about 6.3% (with dividends reinvested).  Historically, markets compounding in the 6% to 6.5% range over the prior 20 years went on to grow between 4x and 5.5x over the next 10 years'

Personally I'd be fading that bet, though.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2022, 11:11:04 AM by vand »

simonsez

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2022, 11:58:20 AM »
The reasons for stock market pessimism are clear - inflation, rate hikes, etc. - but to improve my thought process, I want to hear the other side of the story. At some point this bear market will be over and stock prices will swing in the other direction. If you come across analyst opinions, articles, media, etc. promoting the unpopular view that there's more upside than downside ahead, please post them here.
Clear to those who pay attention and do something about it, perhaps.  To others, I have no idea the market is up or down aside from rumblings I read on here or the occasional NW update.

Not an expert but how about this for optimism - what I'm invested in will be worth more in the future than it is now.  Thus, there is more upside than downside ahead.

For the passive investor who blindly follows his IPS regardless of current market mechanics, I enjoy not worrying one iota about things largely outside my control and am fine accepting slightly lower (potentially lower, anyway) returns compared to a more active person taking time to do research and make moves.  As long as I don't die unexpectedly, I'm winning the financial game pretty much independent of what the market does save for something catastrophic and sustained (at which point, it might not matter much during the nuclear winter/zombie apocalypse anyway how active/passive I was?).

In short, knowing my own personal plan is sound based on prior research (Pfau, Kitces, discussion here and elsewhere 'round the Internet, my own calculations, and communication with my spouse), I'd rather just go tend to the garden or hangout in the pool rather than read fundamental analyses, prospectuses, etc.  Granted, my attention level is not zero, either.  Sure, I've purchased I bonds for medium-term cash storage but long-term plans don't really change (and that's the point).

Good luck to everyone's strategies!  It is pretty cool that there are so many different ways to arrive to the promised land of financial independence.

brandon1827

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2022, 01:18:15 PM »
PTF :)

ATtiny85

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2022, 02:23:21 PM »
I can’t see any reason to be anything other optimistic about my investments. There are things people need to survive, and those things are going to be manufactured. There’s a strong core of the market that is going to have to continue growing.

Of course, there is the possibility that some catastrophe hits earth, but not buying VTSAX every chance I have is not going to help in that case. So I stack my equity holdings high and deep.

HBFIRE

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2022, 12:15:44 PM »
My logic is that right now is maybe the best time to load on as much stock as you can.  Businesses are going to become several fold more productive over the next 10-20 years due to automation/AI.  This will cause valuations to really take off imo.  Great time to buy pieces of those companies at relatively low cost before the AI/automation revolution. 

clarkfan1979

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2022, 12:43:28 PM »
Within the next 60 days, my rental cash flow is going up $1,000/month and that money will go into VTSAX. I'm probably 2-3 years away from claiming FIRE, so I would rather the market be down than up when I'm making contributions. When the time comes, I am 99% sure I won't leave my job. However, it would be fun to claim FIRE. 

I'm also in the process of trying to buy a vacation rental in the Colorado mountains. The plan is to use the house personally about 60 days/year and rent it out 305 days/year. While I'm not predicting a housing decline for long term rentals, I'm cautiously optimistic/hoping for a small dip in prices regarding vacation rentals in my local area. Even if prices on long term rentals decline a little, rents are still going up, which helps with monthly income for claiming FIRE.

I understand that the stock market going down 20% can be concerning for someone living on the 4% rule. However, for the typical working American, why do they care so much about a recession? Is it the possibility of losing your job? I guess that kind of makes sense. However, for everything else, I just don't understand the concern. 

vand

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2022, 01:35:11 PM »
Historically, if you had invested heavily in the periods while the II bull/bear ratio was below 1.0 as it is currently you would have had a very good return on that portion invested several years out into the future.

However, if this develops into an existential crisis similar to 08/09  then we are still very early, and sentiment can stay depressed for a year or more during which time the market craters.


ChpBstrd

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2022, 04:05:22 PM »
Only modestly optimistic, since they're talking about backing the truck up in about 3 months:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonbisnoff/2022/06/16/wealth-management-firms-thinking-happy-thoughts-amid-ugly-bear-market/?utm_source=for_you_2&sh=48c51dd47e74

Stock buybacks are increasing:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/goldman-buyback-desk-flooded-orders-213857988.html

Bonds are actually being recommended:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/t-rowe-says-buy-bonds-184239050.html

Quote
Corporate high yield bonds already may be a buy, added Husain. Some BB-rated bonds, the safest part of the junk-bond market, are priced at 80 cents on the dollar, levels that “historically have proven to be good buying points,” said Husain.

I was intrigued so I did a bond search through my broker. Yes, there are lots of BB-rated bonds selling for 80 cents on the dollar, as should be expected because they were issued at a time when yields were so little. Now we're looking in a time of rising rates. Yield to Maturity or Yield to Worst seems like a better metric to look at. Here are examples of BB or better rated companies with bonds selling for roughly 80 cents on the dollar and a maximum maturity in 2032:

CUSIP              Company                          Maturity            Price       YTM
71654QDE9      PETROLEOS MEXICANOS    01-28-2031      75.633    10.3%
682691AB6       ONEMAIN FINANCIAL CO    01-15-2027      80.406     7.99%
279158AP4       ECOPETROL S A                 11-02-2031      79.035     7.8%
655664AY6       NORDSTROM INC               08-01-2031      78.718     7.5%
55305BAV3       M/I HOMES INC                 02-15-2030      80.1         7.4%
58733RAF9       MERCADOLIBRE INC           01-14-2031      74.241     7.2%
67623CAF6       OFFICE PPTYS INCOME TR  10-15-2031      75.565     7.05%

Ford, Aeries Capital, Seagate, the Republic of Columbia, National Health Investors, and Prospect Capital Corp are further down the list, with YTM's of 6.5% - 6.88%. Most of these BB rated companies/governments seem shaky or recession-vulnerable to me, so I'm not sold on the idea. But it's intriguing that others are.

waltworks

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2022, 05:14:16 PM »
P/E is down in the range that I consider "normal" in the modern era, CAPE is close.

Will things drop more? Probably, but I turned dividend reinvestment back on for all my funds today, instead of dumping that money into I-bonds.

-W

Abe

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2022, 09:07:07 PM »
Being privileged to have a job that is mostly unrelated to the broader economy, I'm pretty happy to keep plowing money into stocks. Interestingly enough, my returns over a 10-year horizon have been higher than total amount I've invested into index funds. I think the snowball is starting to develop, and there's another 10 years left for it to roll...

MasterStache

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2022, 06:59:13 AM »
I don't have any articles to add as I try not to read articles good or bad. I'm sure they are just rinse and repeat every time we have a big decline in the market. Someone will be right and everybody will think that person is a genius investor. 

My approach is just keeping in mind the market always goes up long term. We are putting off some small renovations on our own house and I've taken on some extra side work that I may have originally declined. All that extra money, and then some, is being dumped into our retirement accounts. For us, everything is on sale.     

ChpBstrd

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MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2022, 01:35:41 AM »
ChpBstrd - That article was written by someone with a journalism degree, where I could find no specific background in financial markets.  That journalist quotes  Michael Hartnett, and so does this one published the same day:

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/global-markets-flows-update-1-2022-06-17/

One article optimistic, another pessimistic, both quoting the exact same person on the exact same day.  I think random articles are noisy, and it's worth considering the source.

Telecaster

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2022, 01:36:28 PM »
I'm not an analyst but I have an opinion:  We are at near record unemployment, and near record job openings.  The economy could definitely cool off a bit and things would still be fine.  Inflation is high, but it isn't that high.   Interest rates are still low, despite what you might have read.   Things look fine from where I sit. 

Abe

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2022, 05:56:11 PM »
I guess there’s not much else to do with extra money other than invest more, since cash will be a negative return, And I bonds are limited to $10k per person. This assumes your time horizon is a few years. The longest recovery times were 6-8 years but the mode is about 1 year.

The other thing I realized only recently is that so little of my investments were at or near the most recent peak that the current downturn is fairly meaningless. Once we get closer to retirement, a small cash or bond tent should be more than enough.

clarkfan1979

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2022, 09:09:12 PM »
ChpBstrd - That article was written by someone with a journalism degree, where I could find no specific background in financial markets.  That journalist quotes  Michael Hartnett, and so does this one published the same day:

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/global-markets-flows-update-1-2022-06-17/

One article optimistic, another pessimistic, both quoting the exact same person on the exact same day.  I think random articles are noisy, and it's worth considering the source.

Good point regarding the person who wrote it. I like to read those articles and pay attention to the data and I pretty much ignore the opinion of the writer. I followed the same philosophy when reading academic articles. I read the methods and results and ignore the discussion section.

I bought some Southwest stock in May 2020 at the bottom for fun with a friend. During my research, I came across an article in May/June 2020 stating that Southwest was losing market share of flights during the pandemic. They gave percentages of flights and every airline was in the negative compared to pre-pandemic. However, Southwest had the smallest decline. Southwest was down like 15% and everyone else was down like 30-40%.

If Southwest had the smallest decline out of all the airlines, Southwest is actually gaining market share, not losing market share. Good information that was worth reading. However, the analysis by the author was completely incorrect. 

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2022, 04:37:58 AM »
By "optimistic" in the thread title, I assume we are still disputing inaccurate statements.

I'm not an analyst but I have an opinion:  We are at near record unemployment, and near record job openings.  The economy could definitely cool off a bit and things would still be fine.  Inflation is high, but it isn't that high.   Interest rates are still low, despite what you might have read.   Things look fine from where I sit.
The highest inflation in 40 years "isn't that high"?  Compared to what?

Morgages are the highest in 10 years, and have spiked very quickly.  If everyone's costs are going up, earning very little in a bank account isn't good news - it's a problem.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MORTGAGE30US

HBFIRE

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2022, 11:11:07 AM »

The highest inflation in 40 years "isn't that high"?  Compared to what?


Well, we've had historically low inflation for the last 25 yrs.  Our current inflation rate, while high, isn't close to the highest periods in our history.  Mid 70's early 80's were much higher.  '74/'75/'79/'80/'81/ were all higher by a good margin.    '41/'42/'46/'47 were also higher.  Inflation has been at record lows for so long, a correction was kind of inevitable at some point.  I think most of us have just never experienced higher inflation, so it seems really shocking.  Hell, imagine 18% inflation like in 1946.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 11:51:17 AM by HBFIRE »

vand

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2022, 03:12:20 PM »
The market is right at its lows, but is a bounce just around the corner?

The AAII survey just printed one of its most bearish numbers on record:
https://www.aaii.com/sentimentsurvey

bull:bear ratio of 0.29 for the week of 21/09/2022 puts it in roughly the top 0.3% or so of most bearish readings.

Investors Intelligence bull:bear ratio is also back below 1.0

Odds are good that we will get a rally soon.

****

Optimistic scenario is: Bear markets usually find their bottom about half way through the recession, so we reach capitulation very soon while the recession runs for another 2 quarters and doesn't begin to recover until the Q1-23 data is in. 

Pessimistic scenario is: don't be surprised if stocks struggle sideways/down for another few years, as 12 years of bull market takes a few years to unwind. If you subscribe to fibonnaccis, the ratios are sometimes used for duration as well as price amplitude, so a 38% retracement of a 12yr bull market would be a roughly 4.5yr bear market.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 03:20:02 PM by vand »

ChpBstrd

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2022, 03:34:13 PM »
This article may be partially recyclable:
https://money.cnn.com/2000/12/22/markets/overview/index.htm

Quote
economists began using a word that virtually had disappeared from the American lexicon - a slowdown - as the Federal Reserve's six interest rate increases since June 1999 March 2022 gradually took their toll. Tighter credit and muted consumer confidence dented virtually every industry, from automakers to retailers to all of those low-cost online trading firms that sought to capitalize on the investing boom.

Also, I very much miss the days of clean website design, focused on reading instead of graphics and ads.

vand

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2022, 02:32:32 AM »
I'm not an analyst but I have an opinion:  We are at near record unemployment, and near record job openings.  The economy could definitely cool off a bit and things would still be fine.  Inflation is high, but it isn't that high.   Interest rates are still low, despite what you might have read.   Things look fine from where I sit.

That's not a contrarian opinion though.. is it? It's quite the opposite.  The whole poin of contrarianism is to look for situations where general consensus is so overwhelmingly one-sided that they get blinded to the risk/reward on offer by taking the other side of that. A contrarian opinion is that employment has only one way to go from here, and that will have further negative ramifications

PDXTabs

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2022, 07:05:50 AM »
"Now international currencies, and stocks, are simultaneously depressed relative to the U.S. If the dollar ultimately declines from its recent record highs, that drop would give a double boost to the returns on overseas stocks. I can’t tell you when that will happen, but I think it probably will." - WSJ: Where You Can Find Stock-Market Bargains

I'm still global market-cap weighted.

FireLane

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2022, 03:56:04 PM »
PTF. I'm optimistic; I don't see any reason for a major contraction in the near future. The market overreacts to every piece of news, both good and bad, and investors who've had no real experience of inflation in years are spooked. But the fundamentals are pretty strong.

The massive buildout of renewable energy in the U.S. and Europe is a huge opportunity for investors. The accelerating spread of automation is likely going to increase the returns on capital in the next five to ten years. And the work-from-home revolution will lead to big gains in efficiency and productivity, a fact I don't think the market has absorbed yet.

COVID is still messing up supply chains, and Russia's war in Ukraine is causing price spikes in food and energy, both of which are contributing to inflation. But both those things are more likely to be transient problems.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2022, 07:35:22 PM »
And the work-from-home revolution will lead to big gains in efficiency and productivity, a fact I don't think the market has absorbed yet.
I read an article with an attempt to be neutral citing two sources for productivity during work from home.  The weaker study "surveyed 353 U.S. Internet users" and found that telemarketers were more productive at home.  But a full on research paper did "a large-scale survey involving nine European countries, 259 establishments, 869 teams and 11,011 employees to show that the impact of working from home".  Other studies had ignored the "co-worker impact", which they considered in their study design.  Their conclusion was that most people had worse productivity working from home.  I view this study as both larger and better run, and would trust it's conclusions.  But if you have a large study more recent than 2019, that could also be convincing.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ntwe.12153

vand

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ChpBstrd

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blue_green_sparks

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2022, 03:07:38 PM »
OK Boomers (yes, I am a late boomer). I wish there was an analogy in the past that comes close to the current demographic confluence. The high consuming boomer generation is dropping out of the labor force underfunded and long-lived after driving the market to the moon and bonds into the ground. Japan's economy may be the most accurate harbinger.

Unfortunately, I could not find any optimistic articles that deal with these demographic issues. Please share if you come across cross some.

PS. build a wall. great idea.

PDXTabs

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2022, 02:06:49 PM »
A Wealth of Common Sense: Getting Long-Term Bullish

Basically, once the SP 500 is down 25% buying is almost always a great idea.


PDXTabs

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2022, 02:14:26 PM »
OK Boomers (yes, I am a late boomer). I wish there was an analogy in the past that comes close to the current demographic confluence. The high consuming boomer generation is dropping out of the labor force underfunded and long-lived after driving the market to the moon and bonds into the ground. Japan's economy may be the most accurate harbinger.

Unfortunately, I could not find any optimistic articles that deal with these demographic issues. Please share if you come across cross some.

PS. build a wall. great idea.

If you look at US demographics next to Japanese demographics (or Italian demographics) we aren't that bad, at least not yet.

I do agree that more immigration would help the US. Unfortunately there is bipartisan support for that border wall (Economist: The Biden administration is quietly completing bits of Donald Trump’s wall).

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2022, 08:29:23 AM »
https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2022/10/getting-long-term-bullish/

Basically, once the SP 500 is down 25% buying is almost always a great idea.
Buying at the exact bottom is a good idea - but measuring from the bottom, like that graph does, pretends we can know the exact bottom when it occurs.  How did an investor in 2007 know the great financial crisis would end in March 2009 after a -56.8% total drop?  An article applying 20/20 highsight needs to be more careful than that.

The author also has a contradiction in their article:
Quote
"This is not a 2008-level calamity but it’s certainly a full-fledged bear market.
History provides no guarantees for the future ..."

If the author really believed the future is unknown, why are they predicting we are not in a 2008 event?  This "calamity" hasn't ended, so how do they know it "is not a 2008-level calamity" already?

The market peaked in Jan 2022, putting us 8 months into this crisis.  The market hit -24.6% in June and past -25% last month.  (Side note: the other also mistakenly left 2022 out of their list of -25% or greater crashes)

Now put yourself 8 months into the global financial crisis, June 2008.  That month the S&P 500 varied between -10.5% and -19.5%.  Lehman Brothers was still a reputable firm in business for over a century.  Could you predict a global financial crisis from that?  We weren't even in a bear market!  That makes me skeptical this author could accurately call the 2008 crisis after 8 months.  Keep that in mind when you hear predictions made by people who claim we can't count on predictions.

PDXTabs

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2022, 09:25:08 AM »
https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2022/10/getting-long-term-bullish/

Basically, once the SP 500 is down 25% buying is almost always a great idea.
Buying at the exact bottom is a good idea - but measuring from the bottom, like that graph does, pretends we can know the exact bottom when it occurs.  How did an investor in 2007 know the great financial crisis would end in March 2009 after a -56.8% total drop?  An article applying 20/20 highsight needs to be more careful than that.

The table is slightly confusing but those returns are not from the bottom. They are from 25% down. From the article:

These are the forward one, three, five and ten year returns1 from down 25% over the past 70+ years in the S&P 500:
...
1 Technically I used the first day of the month after down 25% to make things easier from a total return perspective. Close enough.


This is also why the one year returns in the 2007 example are negative.

The market peaked in Jan 2022, putting us 8 months into this crisis.  The market hit -24.6% in June and past -25% last month.  (Side note: the other also mistakenly left 2022 out of their list of -25% or greater crashes)

That's the whole point of the article. The first day of the month following 25% down was this October 1 for the SP 500.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2022, 09:30:52 AM by PDXTabs »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2022, 12:11:16 AM »
(Side note, I missed the 2022 entry in the -25% table - my bad)


The article refers to 2008 repeatedly.  It is one of the main points of the article:

Quote
"This is not a 2008-level calamity but it’s certainly a full-fledged bear market."
...
"The one really poor outcome from the combination of the dot-com bubble bursting in the same decade as the Great Financial Crisis stands out but other than that it has paid to buy into the pain in the past."
...
"Until proven otherwise, I will continue to view downturns as an opportunity, not a cataclysmic event."
...
"I purchased stocks in the fall of 2008 and the market proceeded to fall another 30%. I don’t regret those purchases."

Which is why I again say the author is wrong to claim this is not a 2008 event.  They don't know, which they admit, so why are they making predictions?  The main point of my post was to refute that, and yet your reply ignores that entirely.

At this time into the Great Financial Crisis, the financial system hadn't shown cracks like we saw in England recently.  Their pension funds almost collapsed alongside their long-term treasury market.  Normally the Bank of England announces intervention after the market close, but this was so dire they stepped in at 11am.  Stepping in 6 hours early suggests they saw a collapse within hours - that's how close it was.

Inflation is high in Europe and the United States.  Japan has kept inflation away, but it has picked up in Tokyo, which is a leading indication of inflation for Japan overall.  China's growth has stalled, and as its export partners shrink so will China's exports.  If every major economy goes into recession, that becomes a worldwide recession.

I still claim that author is wrong to predict this is not a 2008 event, and that is the main point of my prior post and this one.

PDXTabs

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2022, 09:56:08 AM »
The article refers to 2008 repeatedly.  It is one of the main points of the article:

Quote
"This is not a 2008-level calamity but it’s certainly a full-fledged bear market."
...
"The one really poor outcome from the combination of the dot-com bubble bursting in the same decade as the Great Financial Crisis stands out but other than that it has paid to buy into the pain in the past."
...
"Until proven otherwise, I will continue to view downturns as an opportunity, not a cataclysmic event."
...
"I purchased stocks in the fall of 2008 and the market proceeded to fall another 30%. I don’t regret those purchases."

Which is why I again say the author is wrong to claim this is not a 2008 event.  They don't know, which they admit, so why are they making predictions?  The main point of my post was to refute that, and yet your reply ignores that entirely.

At this time into the Great Financial Crisis, the financial system hadn't shown cracks like we saw in England recently.  Their pension funds almost collapsed alongside their long-term treasury market.  Normally the Bank of England announces intervention after the market close, but this was so dire they stepped in at 11am.  Stepping in 6 hours early suggests they saw a collapse within hours - that's how close it was.

Inflation is high in Europe and the United States.  Japan has kept inflation away, but it has picked up in Tokyo, which is a leading indication of inflation for Japan overall.  China's growth has stalled, and as its export partners shrink so will China's exports.  If every major economy goes into recession, that becomes a worldwide recession.

I still claim that author is wrong to predict this is not a 2008 event, and that is the main point of my prior post and this one.

Well, this is the optimistic article thread. I was mostly excited about that table and the data it contained. I don't think that this is 2008 because everything is entirely different this time. But just for the sake of argument let's say that right now is 2008, I look forward to tripling my equities over the next 10 years.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2022, 09:58:27 AM by PDXTabs »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2022, 10:32:07 AM »
The article refers to 2008 repeatedly.  It is one of the main points of the article:

Quote
"This is not a 2008-level calamity but it’s certainly a full-fledged bear market."
...
"The one really poor outcome from the combination of the dot-com bubble bursting in the same decade as the Great Financial Crisis stands out but other than that it has paid to buy into the pain in the past."
...
"Until proven otherwise, I will continue to view downturns as an opportunity, not a cataclysmic event."
...
"I purchased stocks in the fall of 2008 and the market proceeded to fall another 30%. I don’t regret those purchases."

Which is why I again say the author is wrong to claim this is not a 2008 event.  They don't know, which they admit, so why are they making predictions?  The main point of my post was to refute that, and yet your reply ignores that entirely.

At this time into the Great Financial Crisis, the financial system hadn't shown cracks like we saw in England recently.  Their pension funds almost collapsed alongside their long-term treasury market.  Normally the Bank of England announces intervention after the market close, but this was so dire they stepped in at 11am.  Stepping in 6 hours early suggests they saw a collapse within hours - that's how close it was.

Inflation is high in Europe and the United States.  Japan has kept inflation away, but it has picked up in Tokyo, which is a leading indication of inflation for Japan overall.  China's growth has stalled, and as its export partners shrink so will China's exports.  If every major economy goes into recession, that becomes a worldwide recession.

I still claim that author is wrong to predict this is not a 2008 event, and that is the main point of my prior post and this one.
Well, this is the optimistic article thread. I was mostly excited about that table and the data it contained. I don't think that this is 2008 because everything is entirely different this time. But just for the sake of argument let's say that right now is 2008, I look forward to tripling my equities over the next 10 years.
When I say "2008 event", why do you claim that means an exact replay of 2008?  Look where I compared 2008 and now, finding different losses in the markets.  Look at my mention of Lehman Brothers, which is already gone and can't collapse again.  Look at my comment about England saving their treasury market recently.

I quoted the article, twice, saying "2008-level calamity".  You read that, both times, and think it means an exact repeat of 2008?

PDXTabs

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2022, 11:02:55 AM »
The article refers to 2008 repeatedly.  It is one of the main points of the article:

Quote
"This is not a 2008-level calamity but it’s certainly a full-fledged bear market."
...
"The one really poor outcome from the combination of the dot-com bubble bursting in the same decade as the Great Financial Crisis stands out but other than that it has paid to buy into the pain in the past."
...
"Until proven otherwise, I will continue to view downturns as an opportunity, not a cataclysmic event."
...
"I purchased stocks in the fall of 2008 and the market proceeded to fall another 30%. I don’t regret those purchases."

Which is why I again say the author is wrong to claim this is not a 2008 event.  They don't know, which they admit, so why are they making predictions?  The main point of my post was to refute that, and yet your reply ignores that entirely.

At this time into the Great Financial Crisis, the financial system hadn't shown cracks like we saw in England recently.  Their pension funds almost collapsed alongside their long-term treasury market.  Normally the Bank of England announces intervention after the market close, but this was so dire they stepped in at 11am.  Stepping in 6 hours early suggests they saw a collapse within hours - that's how close it was.

Inflation is high in Europe and the United States.  Japan has kept inflation away, but it has picked up in Tokyo, which is a leading indication of inflation for Japan overall.  China's growth has stalled, and as its export partners shrink so will China's exports.  If every major economy goes into recession, that becomes a worldwide recession.

I still claim that author is wrong to predict this is not a 2008 event, and that is the main point of my prior post and this one.
Well, this is the optimistic article thread. I was mostly excited about that table and the data it contained. I don't think that this is 2008 because everything is entirely different this time. But just for the sake of argument let's say that right now is 2008, I look forward to tripling my equities over the next 10 years.
When I say "2008 event", why do you claim that means an exact replay of 2008?  Look where I compared 2008 and now, finding different losses in the markets.  Look at my mention of Lehman Brothers, which is already gone and can't collapse again.  Look at my comment about England saving their treasury market recently.

I quoted the article, twice, saying "2008-level calamity".  You read that, both times, and think it means an exact repeat of 2008?

Again, I'm an optimistic guy in an optimistic thread posting about an optimistic table. If I wanted to add doom and gloom I'd argue that we are not in fact in 2008, but 2000. I don't really care about the article focusing on 2008, but I see your point that this is an article thread, and the article does that.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2022, 12:48:00 PM »
The article refers to 2008 repeatedly.  It is one of the main points of the article:

Quote
"This is not a 2008-level calamity but it’s certainly a full-fledged bear market."
...
"The one really poor outcome from the combination of the dot-com bubble bursting in the same decade as the Great Financial Crisis stands out but other than that it has paid to buy into the pain in the past."
...
"Until proven otherwise, I will continue to view downturns as an opportunity, not a cataclysmic event."
...
"I purchased stocks in the fall of 2008 and the market proceeded to fall another 30%. I don’t regret those purchases."

Which is why I again say the author is wrong to claim this is not a 2008 event.  They don't know, which they admit, so why are they making predictions?  The main point of my post was to refute that, and yet your reply ignores that entirely.

At this time into the Great Financial Crisis, the financial system hadn't shown cracks like we saw in England recently.  Their pension funds almost collapsed alongside their long-term treasury market.  Normally the Bank of England announces intervention after the market close, but this was so dire they stepped in at 11am.  Stepping in 6 hours early suggests they saw a collapse within hours - that's how close it was.

Inflation is high in Europe and the United States.  Japan has kept inflation away, but it has picked up in Tokyo, which is a leading indication of inflation for Japan overall.  China's growth has stalled, and as its export partners shrink so will China's exports.  If every major economy goes into recession, that becomes a worldwide recession.

I still claim that author is wrong to predict this is not a 2008 event, and that is the main point of my prior post and this one.
Well, this is the optimistic article thread. I was mostly excited about that table and the data it contained. I don't think that this is 2008 because everything is entirely different this time. But just for the sake of argument let's say that right now is 2008, I look forward to tripling my equities over the next 10 years.
When I say "2008 event", why do you claim that means an exact replay of 2008?  Look where I compared 2008 and now, finding different losses in the markets.  Look at my mention of Lehman Brothers, which is already gone and can't collapse again.  Look at my comment about England saving their treasury market recently.

I quoted the article, twice, saying "2008-level calamity".  You read that, both times, and think it means an exact repeat of 2008?
Again, I'm an optimistic guy in an optimistic thread posting about an optimistic table. If I wanted to add doom and gloom I'd argue that we are not in fact in 2008, but 2000. I don't really care about the article focusing on 2008, but I see your point that this is an article thread, and the article does that.
Your answer has nothing to do with the question in my post. Why did you claim the article and my post imply an exact repeat of 2008?

PDXTabs

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2022, 12:52:41 PM »
The article refers to 2008 repeatedly.  It is one of the main points of the article:

Quote
"This is not a 2008-level calamity but it’s certainly a full-fledged bear market."
...
"The one really poor outcome from the combination of the dot-com bubble bursting in the same decade as the Great Financial Crisis stands out but other than that it has paid to buy into the pain in the past."
...
"Until proven otherwise, I will continue to view downturns as an opportunity, not a cataclysmic event."
...
"I purchased stocks in the fall of 2008 and the market proceeded to fall another 30%. I don’t regret those purchases."

Which is why I again say the author is wrong to claim this is not a 2008 event.  They don't know, which they admit, so why are they making predictions?  The main point of my post was to refute that, and yet your reply ignores that entirely.

At this time into the Great Financial Crisis, the financial system hadn't shown cracks like we saw in England recently.  Their pension funds almost collapsed alongside their long-term treasury market.  Normally the Bank of England announces intervention after the market close, but this was so dire they stepped in at 11am.  Stepping in 6 hours early suggests they saw a collapse within hours - that's how close it was.

Inflation is high in Europe and the United States.  Japan has kept inflation away, but it has picked up in Tokyo, which is a leading indication of inflation for Japan overall.  China's growth has stalled, and as its export partners shrink so will China's exports.  If every major economy goes into recession, that becomes a worldwide recession.

I still claim that author is wrong to predict this is not a 2008 event, and that is the main point of my prior post and this one.
Well, this is the optimistic article thread. I was mostly excited about that table and the data it contained. I don't think that this is 2008 because everything is entirely different this time. But just for the sake of argument let's say that right now is 2008, I look forward to tripling my equities over the next 10 years.
When I say "2008 event", why do you claim that means an exact replay of 2008?  Look where I compared 2008 and now, finding different losses in the markets.  Look at my mention of Lehman Brothers, which is already gone and can't collapse again.  Look at my comment about England saving their treasury market recently.

I quoted the article, twice, saying "2008-level calamity".  You read that, both times, and think it means an exact repeat of 2008?
Again, I'm an optimistic guy in an optimistic thread posting about an optimistic table. If I wanted to add doom and gloom I'd argue that we are not in fact in 2008, but 2000. I don't really care about the article focusing on 2008, but I see your point that this is an article thread, and the article does that.
Your answer has nothing to do with the question in my post. Why did you claim the article and my post imply an exact repeat of 2008?

I was responding to your statement that "I again say the author is wrong to claim this is not a 2008 event." Since I am still accumulating and lived through 2008 while buying equities I'd welcome another 2008, I just don't think that this is one. Other than that I literally don't know or care to discuss this aspect of this article that I literally don't care about because all I care about is being optimistic with the table that I provided. I suggest you discuss your difference of opinion with the original author who is active on twitter.

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2022, 05:35:55 PM »
OK Boomers (yes, I am a late boomer). I wish there was an analogy in the past that comes close to the current demographic confluence. The high consuming boomer generation is dropping out of the labor force underfunded and long-lived after driving the market to the moon and bonds into the ground. Japan's economy may be the most accurate harbinger.

Unfortunately, I could not find any optimistic articles that deal with these demographic issues. Please share if you come across cross some.

PS. build a wall. great idea.

If you look at US demographics next to Japanese demographics (or Italian demographics) we aren't that bad, at least not yet.

I do agree that more immigration would help the US. Unfortunately there is bipartisan support for that border wall (Economist: The Biden administration is quietly completing bits of Donald Trump’s wall).
Thanks for that. Indeed, the US does appear to be in better shape than I thought.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2022, 12:43:44 AM »
Sometimes people so refuse to admit they're wrong, I can ask them the same exact question over and over, and they will not answer it.  PDXTabs claimed that a prior 10 year period of history could exactly repeat, and refuses to admit that was absurd and wrong.  Here is the quote which I asked about repeatedly, and PDXTabs can't admit is absurd and wrong.

But just for the sake of argument let's say that right now is 2008, I look forward to tripling my equities over the next 10 years.

dgray26327376

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2022, 01:43:27 PM »
Sometimes people so refuse to admit they're wrong, I can ask them the same exact question over and over, and they will not answer it.  PDXTabs claimed that a prior 10 year period of history could exactly repeat, and refuses to admit that was absurd and wrong.  Here is the quote which I asked about repeatedly, and PDXTabs can't admit is absurd and wrong.

But just for the sake of argument let's say that right now is 2008, I look forward to tripling my equities over the next 10 years.

First time poster - but PDXTabs article was interesting and good perspective... MustacheAndAHalf - to me you're coming across as ornery on one little bit of noise in an optimistic thread where PDXTabs linked an article that made a really interesting point on forward returns from a -25% sell-off...  his entire point was that maybe this market cycle isn't as bad as 2008... and if it is... tripling your equities in 10 years is pretty good! What is the question that you want answered? I don't think he said anything about "exactly repeating." https://www.aconsciousrethink.com/11749/always-need-to-be-right/

Ichabod

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2022, 03:50:40 PM »
PTF. I'm optimistic; I don't see any reason for a major contraction in the near future. The market overreacts to every piece of news, both good and bad, and investors who've had no real experience of inflation in years are spooked. But the fundamentals are pretty strong.

The massive buildout of renewable energy in the U.S. and Europe is a huge opportunity for investors. The accelerating spread of automation is likely going to increase the returns on capital in the next five to ten years. And the work-from-home revolution will lead to big gains in efficiency and productivity, a fact I don't think the market has absorbed yet.

COVID is still messing up supply chains, and Russia's war in Ukraine is causing price spikes in food and energy, both of which are contributing to inflation. But both those things are more likely to be transient problems.
+1 on everything. Supply chains are still recovering. I expect eventually China will stop their lockdowns. The Ukraine conflict resolving would go a long way, and while that's not imminent, transitioning from Russian oil has already started.

And the work-from-home revolution will lead to big gains in efficiency and productivity, a fact I don't think the market has absorbed yet.
I read an article with an attempt to be neutral citing two sources for productivity during work from home.  The weaker study "surveyed 353 U.S. Internet users" and found that telemarketers were more productive at home.  But a full on research paper did "a large-scale survey involving nine European countries, 259 establishments, 869 teams and 11,011 employees to show that the impact of working from home".  Other studies had ignored the "co-worker impact", which they considered in their study design.  Their conclusion was that most people had worse productivity working from home.  I view this study as both larger and better run, and would trust it's conclusions.  But if you have a large study more recent than 2019, that could also be convincing.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ntwe.12153
There's a lot at play here, and I don't have studies I can cite you.
1. A 2019 study about WFH does feel out of date. WFH exploded in popularity during COVID, and that's going to change the kind of people WFH, and companies now have to focus on enabling WFH.
2. Employees could be less productive WFH, and it could still be a net economic gain. Savings on commuting to the office. Savings on office leases. Less sick days. More possible employees. Employees able to work in their preferred job without moving. Employers able to recruit people nationally or globally.

The internet has been poo-pooed as a technological marvel that didn't really move the needle on productivity, and COVID changed that. The lockdowns of 2020 would've been much more destructive in the 80s. Now knowledge workers can take their laptops home without missing a beat. I expect there are more gains to be had here as companies realize the advantage of ending office leases, recruiting nationally, and improving the productivity of remote workers by changing culture/management.

Anecdote: I'm pretty confident that I'm less productive WFH, but then again, finding a local job would severely restrict my opportunities. I'd either have to relocate, travel regularly, settle for a bad fit at one of the handful of local jobs in my niche, or switch niches. And my current employer would find it difficult to replace me with a local candidate or someone willing to relocate. My ideal work situation would not be 100% WFH, but 3-5 days a week at an office within 15 minutes of my house. I live in the urban core of large city, but because I have niche specialty that would drastically reduce my options.

Not every employee, company, or even industry will be able to make WFH work, but those that do could unlock massive potential. And companies that learn how to do it well will have a competitive advantage.

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2022, 02:56:45 PM »
I've been pretty optimistic about the economy overall, a bit of a downturn seemed to be in order, and all that - but I have to say this weekend's reading around has got me feeling less so. Was hoping for a relatively short dip and 1-2 year recovery at most. Comparisons to the 70's have been concerning considering the duration of that stagflation era.

now pundits predicting something big upcoming?:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/wall-street-is-worried-something-is-about-to-break-in-markets-here-s-where-jamie-dimon-cathie-wood-and-5-other-top-experts-think-the-rupture-will-come/ar-AA130R0g?cvid=5c99809051fb406e94f5912ea4d706bb

I guess best to rip that bandaid off if it is gonna happen? I'm just not up for the turmoil!

Sorry if I am raining on the optimistic thread! My optimism is petering out and off the cliff side.

Talk me down people!! Give me your optimistic POV!


vand

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2022, 03:00:52 PM »
Sentiment is so bad right now that I'm starting to take a bullish stance just to force myself to look at the other side of the argument.

Using a less common bottom-up approach, Morningstar reckon stocks are as cheap vs intrinsic value as they have been since 2011:

https://www.morningstar.com/articles/1116042/as-pendulum-swings-stocks-go-from-overvalued-to-undervalued

That said, I'm rather dubious as it is surely inevitable that stock earnings will fall as the current higher cost of capital and economic slowdown starts to feed down to corporate profits.

travel2020

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Re: Optimistic / Contrarian Article Thread
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2022, 03:34:53 PM »

now pundits predicting something big upcoming?:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/wall-street-is-worried-something-is-about-to-break-in-markets-here-s-where-jamie-dimon-cathie-wood-and-5-other-top-experts-think-the-rupture-will-come/ar-AA130R0g?cvid=5c99809051fb406e94f5912ea4d706bb



I try my best to not pay attention to pundits like these. A quick search shows that Dimon predicted a major recession in 2020, then predicted a major boom some months later and now is all doom and gloom again.

A lot of times it seems the pundit prognostications are more driven by their agenda of what they want the Fed or the government to do so they can do well. I’m sure if you go back further you’ll find the same financial pundits saying all is well right before the 2008 financial crisis.