Author Topic: Old retirement plan  (Read 2569 times)

Catica

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Old retirement plan
« on: April 18, 2018, 04:51:07 AM »
I have 2 403b plans in TIAA. I thought it would be beneficial to roll my former employer’s plan into my current employer’s plan but I had an appointment with a TIAA rep today and she suggested to leave that plan because she said once I roll it into my current employer’s plan I can’t get that money out until I leave my current employer and also that I had more investment choices in my former employer’s plan. I asked her about expense ratios and she said that they were low and I’m better off leaving that plan as is.
When I got home I looked up the expense ratios of the funds I invested in and they seem high to me in comparison to the expense rations of the available funds in my current employer’s plan even though I can’t really compare because I don’t have the same investment options in both plans. Would you consider these high?

CREF Money Market Account (R3), Ticker symbol: QCMMIX, Expense ratio: 0.23%
CREF Stock Account (R3), Ticker symbol: QCSTIX,  Expense ratio: 0.32%
TIAA Real Estate Account, Ticker symbol: QREARX, Expense ratio: 0.85%
TIAA-CREF International Equity Fund (Institutional), Ticker symbol: TIIEX, Expense ratio: 0.49%
TIAA-CREF Mid-Cap Value Fund (Institutional), Ticker symbol: TIMVX, Expense ratio: 0.41%
TIAA-CREF S&P 500 Index Fund (Institutional), Ticker symbol: TISPX, Expense ratio: 0.06%


But all available fund choices are:
American Funds EuroPacific Growth R5 (RERFX) 0.54%
American Funds Washington Mutual R5 (RWMFX) 0.35%
CREF Bond Market Account (R3) (QCBMIX) 0.29%
CREF Equity Index Account (R3) (QCEQIX) 0.23%
CREF Global Equities Account (R3) (QCGLIX) 0.33%
CREF Growth Account (R3) (QCGRIX) 0.27%
CREF Inflation-Linked Bond Account (R3) (QCILIX) 0.24%
CREF Money Market Account (R3) (QCMMIX) 0.23%
CREF Social Choice Account (R3) (QCSCIX) 0.27%
CREF Stock Account (R3) (QCSTIX) 0.32%
TIAA Real Estate Account (QREARX) 0.85%
TIAA-CREF Growth & Income Fund (Institutional) (TIGRX) 0.41%
TIAA-CREF International Equity Fund (Institutional) (TIIEX) 0.49%
TIAA-CREF Large-Cap Value Fund (Institutional) (TRLIX) 0.40%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle 2010 Fund (Institutional) (TCTIX) 0.38%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle 2015 Fund (Institutional) (TCNIX) 0.39%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle 2020 Fund (Institutional) (TCWIX) 0.40%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle 2025 Fund (Institutional) (TCYIX) 0.41%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle 2030 Fund (Institutional) (TCRIX) 0.42%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle 2035 Fund (Institutional) (TCIIX) 0.43%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle 2040 Fund (Institutional) (TCOIX) 0.44%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle 2045 Fund (Institutional) (TTFIX) 0.45%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle 2050 Fund (Institutional) (TFTIX) 0.45%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle 2055 Fund (Institutional) (TTRIX) 0.45%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle 2060 Fund (Institutional) (TLXNX) 0.45
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Retirement Income Fund (Institutional) (TLRIX) 0.38%
TIAA-CREF Mid-Cap Growth Fund (Institutional) (TRPWX) 0.47%
TIAA-CREF Mid-Cap Value Fund (Institutional) (TIMVX) 0.41%
TIAA-CREF S&P 500 Index Fund (Institutional) (TISPX) 0.06%
TIAA-CREF Small-Cap Equity Fund (Institutional) (TISEX) 0.41%
Western Asset Core Plus Bond I (WACPX) 0.45%
TIAA Traditional Annuity - Group Supplemental Retirement Annuity
TIAA Traditional Annuity - Retirement Annuity
TIAA Traditional Annuity - Supplemental Retirement Annuity



In my current employer’s plan I’m investing in TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index 2035 Fund (Institutional) (TLYIX) 0.10%

But the plan has the following fund choices::
CREF Bond Market Account (R3) (QCBMIX) ER: 0.29%
CREF Equity Index Account (R3) (QCEQIX). ER: 0.23%
CREF Global Equities Account (R3) (QCGLIX) ER: 0.33%
CREF Growth Account (R3) (QCGRIX) ER: 0.27%
CREF Inflation-Linked Bond Account (R3) (QCILIX) 0.24%
CREF Money Market Account (R3) (QCMMIX) 0.23%
CREF Social Choice Account (R3) (QCSCIX) 0.27%
CREF Stock Account (R3) (QCSTIX) 0.32%
TIAA Real Estate Account (QREARX) 0.85%
TIAA-CREF Bond Index Fund (Institutional) (TBIIX) 0.12%
TIAA-CREF Equity Index Fund (Institutional) (TIEIX) 0.05%
TIAA-CREF International Equity Index Fund (Institutional) (TCIEX) 0.06%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index 2010 Fund (Institutional) (TLTIX) 0.10%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index 2015 Fund (Institutional) (TLFIX) 0.10%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index 2020 Fund (Institutional) (TLWIX) 0.10%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index 2025 Fund (Institutional) (TLQIX) 0.10%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index 2030 Fund (Institutional) (TLHIX) 0.10%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index 2035 Fund (Institutional) (TLYIX) 0.10%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index 2040 Fund (Institutional) (TLZIX) 0.10%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index 2045 Fund (Institutional) (TLXIX) 0.10%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index 2050 Fund (Institutional) (TLLIX) 0.10%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index 2055 Fund (Institutional) (TTIIX) 0.10%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index 2060 Fund (Institutional) (TVIIX) 0.10%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index Retirement Income Fund (Institutional) (TRILX) 0.10%
TIAA-CREF Money Market Fund (Institutional) (TCIXX) 0.14%
TIAA Traditional Annuity - Group Retirement Annuity
TIAA Traditional Annuity - Retirement Annuity
TIAA Traditional Annuity - Retirement Choice Plus

I have $135,233.83 in the old plan
New plan: $70,942

I'm not intending to take the money out when I'm still working for my employer and the other thing she mentioned was that I can take a loan from that plan.  I'm not intending to do that either.  Is there any other reason I should not rob over my old plan into a new one?

nereo

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Re: Old retirement plan
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2018, 05:39:13 AM »
Quote
I have 2 403b plans in TIAA. I thought it would be beneficial to roll my former employer’s plan into my current employer’s plan but I had an appointment with a TIAA rep today and she suggested to leave that plan because she said once I roll it into my current employer’s plan I can’t get that money out until I leave my current employer and also that I had more investment choices in my former employer’s plan.

She's right.  Don't roll over your old plan into a new one. 
Alternatively what you might do is roll over your old 401(k) into an IRA account.  It's a non-taxable event and it will give you complete control on where and how you invest it.

Quote
Would you consider these high?
All of those expense ratios are reasonable.  You could certainly do better in an IRA, but as funds go they are not too bad (i've seen many that exceed 1%).
For reference you can hold that SP500 fund for 0.04% and similar funds to those 'Lifecycle" options for 0.15%.
For perspective, that would save you $20 and $150 per year in fees, respectively.

Catica

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Re: Old retirement plan
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2018, 06:04:54 AM »
Quote
I have 2 403b plans in TIAA. I thought it would be beneficial to roll my former employer’s plan into my current employer’s plan but I had an appointment with a TIAA rep today and she suggested to leave that plan because she said once I roll it into my current employer’s plan I can’t get that money out until I leave my current employer and also that I had more investment choices in my former employer’s plan.

She's right.  Don't roll over your old plan into a new one. 
Alternatively what you might do is roll over your old 401(k) into an IRA account.  It's a non-taxable event and it will give you complete control on where and how you invest it.

Quote
Would you consider these high?
All of those expense ratios are reasonable.  You could certainly do better in an IRA, but as funds go they are not too bad (i've seen many that exceed 1%).
For reference you can hold that SP500 fund for 0.04% and similar funds to those 'Lifecycle" options for 0.15%.
For perspective, that would save you $20 and $150 per year in fees, respectively.
I'm not paying any maintenance fees at TIAA.  I'm investing in TIAA-CREF S&P 500 Index Fund (Institutional), Ticker symbol: TISPX, Expense ratio: 0.06% at TIAA for example, if I wanted to compare this to Vanguard's expense ratio what would a similar fund at Vanguard be?

nereo

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Re: Old retirement plan
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2018, 06:17:06 AM »
I'm not paying any maintenance fees at TIAA.  I'm investing in TIAA-CREF S&P 500 Index Fund (Institutional), Ticker symbol: TISPX, Expense ratio: 0.06% at TIAA for example, if I wanted to compare this to Vanguard's expense ratio what would a similar fund at Vanguard be?

Vanguard's offering would be the Admiral class shares of their SP500 index: VFIAX.  It has an expense ratio of 0.04%
I believe Fidelity (FXSIX) has beaten Vanguard here slightly (0.03%)

Catica

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Re: Old retirement plan
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2018, 06:32:26 AM »
I'm not paying any maintenance fees at TIAA.  I'm investing in TIAA-CREF S&P 500 Index Fund (Institutional), Ticker symbol: TISPX, Expense ratio: 0.06% at TIAA for example, if I wanted to compare this to Vanguard's expense ratio what would a similar fund at Vanguard be?

Vanguard's offering would be the Admiral class shares of their SP500 index: VFIAX.  It has an expense ratio of 0.04%
I believe Fidelity (FXSIX) has beaten Vanguard here slightly (0.03%)
Would I still be better off even if I had to be Vanguard's maintenance fee?  Well, I already have Vanguard IRA account so I'm already paying the fee, so I guess it's a moot point.
If I was to roll it into my Vanguard IRA which right now has $11000 and is all invested in VTSAX, how would I invest al of that money?

nereo

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Re: Old retirement plan
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2018, 06:35:20 AM »
I'm not paying any maintenance fees at TIAA.  I'm investing in TIAA-CREF S&P 500 Index Fund (Institutional), Ticker symbol: TISPX, Expense ratio: 0.06% at TIAA for example, if I wanted to compare this to Vanguard's expense ratio what would a similar fund at Vanguard be?

Vanguard's offering would be the Admiral class shares of their SP500 index: VFIAX.  It has an expense ratio of 0.04%
I believe Fidelity (FXSIX) has beaten Vanguard here slightly (0.03%)
Would I still be better off even if I had to be Vanguard's maintenance fee?  Well, I already have Vanguard IRA account so I'm already paying the fee, so I guess it's a moot point.
If I was to roll it into my Vanguard IRA which right now has $11000 and is all invested in VTSAX, how would I invest al of that money?

When you say "maintenance fee" I believe what you are talking about is a front-end or back-end load, neither of which Vanguard has on their index or target retirement funds.
However, your expense ratio *is* your maintenance fee. It's what you pay each year as a share of your total assets, and it covers the operating expenses of your broker (in this case TIAA-CREF).  For comparable funds, Vanguard has lower fees than the TIAA-CREF options you listed.

tl/dr: you will pay less in 'fees' at Vanguard for nearly identical investments.

Catica

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Re: Old retirement plan
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2018, 07:43:14 AM »
I'm not paying any maintenance fees at TIAA.  I'm investing in TIAA-CREF S&P 500 Index Fund (Institutional), Ticker symbol: TISPX, Expense ratio: 0.06% at TIAA for example, if I wanted to compare this to Vanguard's expense ratio what would a similar fund at Vanguard be?

Vanguard's offering would be the Admiral class shares of their SP500 index: VFIAX.  It has an expense ratio of 0.04%
I believe Fidelity (FXSIX) has beaten Vanguard here slightly (0.03%)
Would I still be better off even if I had to be Vanguard's maintenance fee?  Well, I already have Vanguard IRA account so I'm already paying the fee, so I guess it's a moot point.
If I was to roll it into my Vanguard IRA which right now has $11000 and is all invested in VTSAX, how would I invest al of that money?

When you say "maintenance fee" I believe what you are talking about is a front-end or back-end load, neither of which Vanguard has on their index or target retirement funds.
However, your expense ratio *is* your maintenance fee. It's what you pay each year as a share of your total assets, and it covers the operating expenses of your broker (in this case TIAA-CREF).  For comparable funds, Vanguard has lower fees than the TIAA-CREF options you listed.

tl/dr: you will pay less in 'fees' at Vanguard for nearly identical investments.
I'm talking about these fees https://investor.vanguard.com/investing/account-fees

nereo

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Re: Old retirement plan
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2018, 07:51:36 AM »
I'm not paying any maintenance fees at TIAA.  I'm investing in TIAA-CREF S&P 500 Index Fund (Institutional), Ticker symbol: TISPX, Expense ratio: 0.06% at TIAA for example, if I wanted to compare this to Vanguard's expense ratio what would a similar fund at Vanguard be?

Vanguard's offering would be the Admiral class shares of their SP500 index: VFIAX.  It has an expense ratio of 0.04%
I believe Fidelity (FXSIX) has beaten Vanguard here slightly (0.03%)
Would I still be better off even if I had to be Vanguard's maintenance fee?  Well, I already have Vanguard IRA account so I'm already paying the fee, so I guess it's a moot point.
If I was to roll it into my Vanguard IRA which right now has $11000 and is all invested in VTSAX, how would I invest al of that money?

When you say "maintenance fee" I believe what you are talking about is a front-end or back-end load, neither of which Vanguard has on their index or target retirement funds.
However, your expense ratio *is* your maintenance fee. It's what you pay each year as a share of your total assets, and it covers the operating expenses of your broker (in this case TIAA-CREF).  For comparable funds, Vanguard has lower fees than the TIAA-CREF options you listed.

tl/dr: you will pay less in 'fees' at Vanguard for nearly identical investments.
I'm talking about these fees https://investor.vanguard.com/investing/account-fees

Per your OP: I have $135,233.83 in the old plan

You would not pay any annual fee provided you meet the requirements.  You will not pay the fee if your account balance is above $10k, or if you sign up for e-delivery, or if you are a voyager or flagship client.  As your balance is much, much higher than $10k you will not pay any fixed annual account fees.

Regardless, as I said earlier you would save $20/year per $100k from having a lower expense ratio for the SP500 index fund.  That's $27 with the current account balance. THe savings would be greater for target retirement accounts and other funds.

Catica

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Re: Old retirement plan
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2018, 04:49:23 AM »
I'm not paying any maintenance fees at TIAA.  I'm investing in TIAA-CREF S&P 500 Index Fund (Institutional), Ticker symbol: TISPX, Expense ratio: 0.06% at TIAA for example, if I wanted to compare this to Vanguard's expense ratio what would a similar fund at Vanguard be?

Vanguard's offering would be the Admiral class shares of their SP500 index: VFIAX.  It has an expense ratio of 0.04%
I believe Fidelity (FXSIX) has beaten Vanguard here slightly (0.03%)
Would I still be better off even if I had to be Vanguard's maintenance fee?  Well, I already have Vanguard IRA account so I'm already paying the fee, so I guess it's a moot point.
If I was to roll it into my Vanguard IRA which right now has $11000 and is all invested in VTSAX, how would I invest al of that money?

When you say "maintenance fee" I believe what you are talking about is a front-end or back-end load, neither of which Vanguard has on their index or target retirement funds.
However, your expense ratio *is* your maintenance fee. It's what you pay each year as a share of your total assets, and it covers the operating expenses of your broker (in this case TIAA-CREF).  For comparable funds, Vanguard has lower fees than the TIAA-CREF options you listed.

tl/dr: you will pay less in 'fees' at Vanguard for nearly identical investments.
I'm talking about these fees https://investor.vanguard.com/investing/account-fees

Per your OP: I have $135,233.83 in the old plan

You would not pay any annual fee provided you meet the requirements.  You will not pay the fee if your account balance is above $10k, or if you sign up for e-delivery, or if you are a voyager or flagship client.  As your balance is much, much higher than $10k you will not pay any fixed annual account fees.

Regardless, as I said earlier you would save $20/year per $100k from having a lower expense ratio for the SP500 index fund.  That's $27 with the current account balance. THe savings would be greater for target retirement accounts and other funds.
Thanks.  Will I not lose anything by moving this money Vanguard?  I mean what I'm investing in at TIAA ca nI replicate at Vanguard?  Or maybe I should not replicate, maybe I need to invest in something else.  What's your suggestion?

nereo

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Re: Old retirement plan
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2018, 04:58:07 AM »
Quote
Thanks.  Will I not lose anything by moving this money Vanguard?  I mean what I'm investing in at TIAA ca nI replicate at Vanguard?  Or maybe I should not replicate, maybe I need to invest in something else.  What's your suggestion?

Well, this gets at what your asset allocation (AA) is and what you want it to be.  That's a personal decision and differs depending on things like your investment timeline, goals, risk comfort, etc.

Broadly speaking when you do a rollover you keep the investments the same, or as close to the same as you can.  But that's assuming that you are satisfied with what you are investing *in* in the first place.  Hopefully you had a reason for choosing the fund(s) you did.  If not, it's time to consider that.

Catica

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Re: Old retirement plan
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2018, 06:24:01 AM »
Quote
Thanks.  Will I not lose anything by moving this money Vanguard?  I mean what I'm investing in at TIAA ca nI replicate at Vanguard?  Or maybe I should not replicate, maybe I need to invest in something else.  What's your suggestion?

Well, this gets at what your asset allocation (AA) is and what you want it to be.  That's a personal decision and differs depending on things like your investment timeline, goals, risk comfort, etc.

Broadly speaking when you do a rollover you keep the investments the same, or as close to the same as you can.  But that's assuming that you are satisfied with what you are investing *in* in the first place.  Hopefully you had a reason for choosing the fund(s) you did.  If not, it's time to consider that.
I'm not 100% sure I'm satisfied with my current AA in that plan.  I think it's a bit conservative.  I want to be roughly 70% stocks 30%  bonds overall. 
Right now in my current TIAA plan ($70990) I'm investing in:
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index 2035 Fund (Institutional) (TLYIX) 0.1%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index Retirement Income Fund (Institutional) (TRILX) 0.1%
and Vanguard IRA VTSAX ($11000)

maizeman

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Re: Old retirement plan
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2018, 06:36:42 AM »
Some people really like TIAA's real estate fund, which doesn't have a direct analog at Vanguard or most other brokers. Other than that one option, there should be either direct equivalent funds or approximately equivalent funds for everything TIAA offers at lower-cost brokers like Vanguard or Fidelity or Schwab.

Unlike many other brokers TIAA Lifecycle funds are a terrible deal. You can get much better expense ratios by buying the component TIAA funds yourself instead of buying the lifecycle fund. I did that math on this for my own account last year and realized I was paying 0.45% for the lifecycle fund, but could pay only 0.08% if I bought the same funds myself. $370 per year per $100k is expensive just for automatic rebalancing.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/why-are-tiaa-cref-lifecycle-funds-such-a-terrible-deal/

nereo

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Re: Old retirement plan
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2018, 06:39:22 AM »
Quote
Thanks.  Will I not lose anything by moving this money Vanguard?  I mean what I'm investing in at TIAA ca nI replicate at Vanguard?  Or maybe I should not replicate, maybe I need to invest in something else.  What's your suggestion?

Well, this gets at what your asset allocation (AA) is and what you want it to be.  That's a personal decision and differs depending on things like your investment timeline, goals, risk comfort, etc.

Broadly speaking when you do a rollover you keep the investments the same, or as close to the same as you can.  But that's assuming that you are satisfied with what you are investing *in* in the first place.  Hopefully you had a reason for choosing the fund(s) you did.  If not, it's time to consider that.
I'm not 100% sure I'm satisfied with my current AA in that plan.  I think it's a bit conservative.  I want to be roughly 70% stocks 30%  bonds overall. 
Right now in my current TIAA plan ($70990) I'm investing in:
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index 2035 Fund (Institutional) (TLYIX) 0.1%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index Retirement Income Fund (Institutional) (TRILX) 0.1%
and Vanguard IRA VTSAX ($11000)

You should always start with your target AA.  Take all of your investments and determine what your invested in (and why). When you do a the rollover you can adjust your actual AA to your target AA - because it's all inside tax-deferred accounts this will not be a taxable event, and as you are well above the minimum it will not trigger any fees.

If you are having trouble formulating your AA, you miguht want to take a step back and make an Investor Policy Statement (IPS) for yourself. An IPS takes a broader view of what your goals are and what your time horizon is. This can often help clarify how much money you may want in stocks, bonds, cash, your home, etc.
g'luck.

Catica

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Re: Old retirement plan
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2018, 11:57:25 AM »
Quote
Thanks.  Will I not lose anything by moving this money Vanguard?  I mean what I'm investing in at TIAA ca nI replicate at Vanguard?  Or maybe I should not replicate, maybe I need to invest in something else.  What's your suggestion?

Well, this gets at what your asset allocation (AA) is and what you want it to be.  That's a personal decision and differs depending on things like your investment timeline, goals, risk comfort, etc.

Broadly speaking when you do a rollover you keep the investments the same, or as close to the same as you can.  But that's assuming that you are satisfied with what you are investing *in* in the first place.  Hopefully you had a reason for choosing the fund(s) you did.  If not, it's time to consider that.
I'm not 100% sure I'm satisfied with my current AA in that plan.  I think it's a bit conservative.  I want to be roughly 70% stocks 30%  bonds overall. 
Right now in my current TIAA plan ($70990) I'm investing in:
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index 2035 Fund (Institutional) (TLYIX) 0.1%
TIAA-CREF Lifecycle Index Retirement Income Fund (Institutional) (TRILX) 0.1%
and Vanguard IRA VTSAX ($11000)

You should always start with your target AA.  Take all of your investments and determine what your invested in (and why). When you do a the rollover you can adjust your actual AA to your target AA - because it's all inside tax-deferred accounts this will not be a taxable event, and as you are well above the minimum it will not trigger any fees.

If you are having trouble formulating your AA, you miguht want to take a step back and make an Investor Policy Statement (IPS) for yourself. An IPS takes a broader view of what your goals are and what your time horizon is. This can often help clarify how much money you may want in stocks, bonds, cash, your home, etc.
g'luck.
How do I make an Investor Policy Statement?

simonsez

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Re: Old retirement plan
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2018, 12:03:37 PM »
How do I make an Investor Policy Statement?
Excellent idea for a stickied post!

nereo

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Re: Old retirement plan
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2018, 12:33:05 PM »
How do I make an Investor Policy Statement?
Excellent idea for a stickied post!
yeah, yeah... i know i've said I've been working on it for months.  Maybe I'll actually finish it.

in the mean time, here's a few resources.  Often an IPS is done between an asset manager and client, but it's just as important for you to have one for yourself if you are self-managing your money. It keeps people from doing stupid things (like panicking when a downturn happens, or chasing the next hot market) and keeps you focused on oyur medium and long-term financial goals.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement
some examples (note yours may be VERY DIFFERENT from what other people have written - that's to be expected):
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=61915