Author Topic: Newly retired and not sure if I should put money in dividend stocks to live off?  (Read 6084 times)

Unionville

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I just found out I can retire after having my Vanguard portfolio examined by one of their managers. But, I walked away still confused as to what money I should "live off of?" 

My plan is to live off of $40,000 a year income from my portfolio (over 1M), but how do I get it?  I don't want to just cash out stocks randomly, (or incur excessive tax expenses). 

Do most FIRE's live off dividends?  Should I invest in more stocks with higher dividends? Not sure of the strategy here.

(in case it matters: I am 54, I don't have debt, I own my house, and am car-free)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 11:16:00 AM by meteor »

aclarridge

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Why not just invest in whatever portfolio (index ETF stock/bond mix) you are comfortable with, and get over your fear of cashing out a small amount of it each year to cover the rest of the 40k that isn't met by dividends and interest? Capital gains tax on that amount would be pretty small. I think it's better to do that rather than going for high yield investments that aren't what you actually want to be invested in.

matchewed

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^ This, and focus on tax efficiency and fee reduction rather than dividend vs. nondividend.

KingCoin

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You should read some articles on the "safe withdrawal rate" which will give you a framework on how to think about this.

Remember, dividends are taxable too, so there's no tax advantage to dividends vs selling a small part of your portfolio to fund expenses. In fact, selling a part of your portfolio is probably advantageous because you may be able to pair winners and losers and avoid taxes altogether (or, at the very least, time your tax liability rather than having it forced on you via dividends).

A diversified portfolio of stock and bonds will probably pay 2-4% in income anyway, so this may end up being a non-issue.

keepingmobens

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If you want to learn about dividend investing, here are four good blogs I've found on the subject:

www.theconservativeincomeinvestor.com

www.dividendmantra.com

www.dividenddad.com

www.dividendgrowthinvestor.com


KingCoin

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If you want to learn about dividend investing, here are four good blogs I've found on the subject:

www.theconservativeincomeinvestor.com

www.dividendmantra.com

www.dividenddad.com

www.dividendgrowthinvestor.com

For what it's worth, all these blogs will have a decided bias towards dividend stocks vs other stocks and assets. I'd educate yourself on portfolio theory and the merits of dividend stocks vs other stocks before drinking the kool-aid.

wtjbatman

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If you want to learn about dividend investing, here are four good blogs I've found on the subject:

www.theconservativeincomeinvestor.com

www.dividendmantra.com

www.dividenddad.com

www.dividendgrowthinvestor.com

For what it's worth, all these blogs will have a decided bias towards dividend stocks vs other stocks and assets. I'd educate yourself on portfolio theory and the merits of dividend stocks vs other stocks before drinking the kool-aid.

Of course they are biased towards dividend stocks. With three of those websites, the word dividend is even in the name. And for what it's worth, those  sites are great resources for anyone interested in learning about dividend investing.

meteor, having your investment money in dividend stocks, where you withdraw the dividends earned without touching the principal, is a legitimate strategy. But like any investment strategy, you need to be comfortable doing it. I wouldn't recommend dividend investing to anyone who isn't comfortable with putting money in individual companies. You should be able to do at least a fair share of research and evaluation. That's why, for non-active/casual investors, index funds are generally the way to go. Which means in retirement, you will most likely have to sell at least part of your holdings. I'm a big fan of dividend investing, and believe in it myself, but it's not for everyone, and I don't serve kool aid to anyone who hasn't already shown an interest.

(here's a heads up, my blog is biased as well, lol)

foobar

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There is no point in living off dividends other than the fact you like the stock. Traditionally dividend stocks have been those "boring" stable industries which is why they were pushed to retirees.  If you are getting a qualified dividend (or capital gains), you are going to pay 0% taxes. If on the other than you get a nonqualified dividend, you are going to have a tax bill of about 4k.

There is probably some stuff to be down to optimize how much Obamacare subsidy you get (assuming you are buying health insurance). For example to get 40k of income to spend what you could do is sell stock with a high cost basis (i.e. it is worth 40k but you paid 30k so your taxable income is only 10k ) with the idea when you turn 65 you can then sell all the low cost basis stock.

I just found out I can retire after having my Vanguard portfolio examined by one of their managers. But, I walked away still confused as to what money I should "live off of?" 

My plan is to live off of $40,000 a year income from my portfolio (over 1M), but how do I get it?  I don't want to just cash out stocks randomly, (or incur excessive tax expenses). 

Do most FIRE's live off dividends?  Should I invest in more stocks with higher dividends? Not sure of the strategy here.

(in case it matters: I am 54, I don't have debt, I own my house, and am car-free)

Leisured

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Meteor, if you want to live off investments, then you have to own dividend stocks! Growth stocks usually have low dividend yields. Dividend stocks do not grow as quickly, but they do still keep pace with inflation, as do the dividends.

I am Australian, but from the internet it seems that in the US, if you hold investments for at least three or four months, the dividends from those investments are said to be Qualified dividends, and are tax free for the first $37K or so of income, and are taxed at 15% thereafter. Tax is apparently not a problem.


kpd905

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Meteor, if you want to live off investments, then you have to own dividend stocks! Growth stocks usually have low dividend yields. Dividend stocks do not grow as quickly, but they do still keep pace with inflation, as do the dividends.

I am Australian, but from the internet it seems that in the US, if you hold investments for at least three or four months, the dividends from those investments are said to be Qualified dividends, and are tax free for the first $37K or so of income, and are taxed at 15% thereafter. Tax is apparently not a problem.

Capital gains tax is the same as qualified dividend tax, so you don't need dividend stocks in this scenario.  You can just hold growth stocks and sell what you need each year.

c12mintz

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You can arguably hold either a full index of stocks and do the 'sell-off' at 3-5% per year, or you can pursue dividend-growth-investing (DGI) and live off only the dividends.

People on here seem to be providing pretty reasonable answers thus far and it all depends on 2 things:

1- Do you believe in the EMH? For a forum of strong self-aware savers and investors it seems EMH is the 'kool aide' here. That's fine. To each their own. EMH works fine if you can forget the 90s tech bubble and the 2008 housing crash and instead focus on y/y indexing averages. I'm a huge proponent of indexing myself-- most active managers suck at their job-- but I get a bit cringed when people try to argue that "all stocks are 100% efficient." Something like Tesla (TSLA) has a lot more assumptions priced into it than something like Coca Cola (KO), the risks are nowhere near equal, and beta is a poor proxy of (long-term) 'risk,' but now I'm digressing.

2- Do you plan a 'flat spending curve' or an 'upward spending curve?' Or, are you semi going to full retired or just flat/full retired?


If you believe in #1 it really doesn't matter what you do as long as you diversify enough (bonds, stocks, different industries) to shield yourself from outlier events. Modern Portfolio Theory (MPT) is your sauce here.

However, if you don't fully buy #1, and depending on your age, you probably want to stick to more stable names.

Also if you don't buy #1, then #2 becomes a real question.


If you want your income to ramp up, many investors like the DGI approach because they can live off only the dividends. Building a portfolio of 20-30 stable dividend payers (but also growers) provides a steady stream of income, usually around 2.5% if you add enough growth (stuff like Disney with lower yield but high growth) and avoid risky high-yielding instruments (stuff like Annally (NLY), shipping stocks) or high-yielders that will never/hardly grow the underlying (MLPs, and a lot of REITs fall in here).

The 'fun' part of DGI versus a 4% drawdown is that say with $1M, you start with $25k a year to spend. However, the average growth of these dividend stocks is going to be close to 7%. Next year you have $27k, in 10 years you have over $49k per year to spend. In 20 years you are spending over $97k. Since the 2.5% yield will probably stay around constant, in 20 years your actual wealth will be close to $3.9M. Meanwhile your 4% drawdown neighbor is now able to spend around half of what you do and his/her nestegg is $1M at best, probably smaller.


The clear thing to realize is that it's not the dividends that is the 'magic' necessarily. You can do the same with withdrawals. By doing 2.5% each year instead of 4-5%, your underlying portfolio will be getting bigger faster than you are taking the stocks out.

The reason dividends provide some 'magic' on the long-term is four-fold:

1) When stocks crash, the fixed withdrawal system decimates your base. For example a 5% withdrawal in spring of 2009 killed off well over 11% of your wealth by now. Dividends keep you focused on the payouts, which if you are with MCD, KO, WMT, TGT, etc, actually went UP in 2008-2010. Your base remained fully intact.

2) Dividend paying stocks often are stable industries and subject to less overall risks. The dividend payouts keep these companies from overexpanding or pursuing stupid acquisitions. These companies often have a core competency in which they focus.

3) Rules on your dividend portfolio allow you to quickly cut those who fail to raise their dividend, or worse cut it, which is a sign of bad things to come. Investors could have shed GM and Ford years before the crash, JCP would have been cut years before this fiasco, etc etc.

4) Dividends paying blue chips are often seen as 'safety' stocks. When the economy is having problems, investors flock to them. Often times the blue chips also provide goods that do well during a crisis. While they obviously suffer sales slowdowns in many cases, the slowdowns are a tiny piece of the broad economic hit. Look back at MCD or WMT stock during the recession- dividends up, profits barely hit, stock flat or even up.