Author Topic: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19  (Read 5719 times)

ChpBstrd

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Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« on: March 16, 2020, 08:16:50 AM »
I think it's good to organize our thoughts about the potential downside from COVID-19, and the positive risks of its resolution. By doing so, we can grasp a wider range of potential impacts and influences, and perhaps identify a point at which we should lever up our market exposure - or not. Please add your own risk/opportunity ideas to the following organized brainstorming list:


Direct COVID-19 Related
     If millions get sick, the workforce contraction would negatively impact GDP.
     Healthcare systems and insurers could be bankrupted. Emergency government measures enacted to keep the system afloat (e.g. emergency Medicare for all).
     Markets could rebound on news of a vaccine or treatment such as Gilead's remdesivir, which has seen success in Japan.
     Markets could rebound if classic public health measures such as social distancing and postponing large social gatherings slow or reverse the expansion.
     If tens of millions of elderly people die, the population curve could shift younger, causing less stability but more economic growth potential.
     Government deficits will exceed 2 trillion in 2020 and 2021.

Consumer Spending / Social Isolation Related
     Drastic quarantine measures reduce consumer spending and production.
     Forced closure of businesses causes widespread small business bankruptcies (restaurants, cosmetics, retail).
     The shift toward online purchasing, even of groceries, accellerates.
     Entertainment habits shift even more away from in-person events, and toward streaming.
     Deflation will occur, with the US potentially going into a deflationary spiral.
     Unemployment will rise from 3% to at least 10% by the end of 2020.
     The U.S. savings rate could skyrocket in the short term.
     Auto repossessions, credit card defaults, and foreclosures could increase as people go without paychecks.

Everything Bubble Related
     Real estate prices could collapse as people hoard resources instead of buying homes.
     The collapse of mortgage assets could tank a few large funds, causing a panic and liquidity crisis.
     Near-zero percent mortgages could become a reality.
     Zero percent interest rates could force retirees to further curtail their spending, accelerating deflation.
     Thousands of BBB/Baa bond issuers could be downgraded one notch to junk, causing forced selling by investors and index funds, causing liquidity to freeze, leading to a panic followed by government intervention.
     Stocks could find a floor with P/E ratios in the single digits, as occurred during the Spanish flu pandemic in 1918 (current PE is 18.7).
     The spread between expected returns on risky assets and safe assets could increase.
         
Cultural Impacts
     If the COVID-19 pandemic persists for over a year, In-person meetings, such as churches, concerts, and theaters will fall out of favor, and new online traditions will emerge.
     Paranoia, conspiracy theories, and a general decline in population mental health could occur as people have less interpersonal contact and more media exposure.
     People whose job skills depend on in-person interaction (waiters, salespeople, clerics, etc.) may have a hard time maintaining employment.
     Work-from-home could become the norm for office jobs. Lots of overbuilt office real estate may go permanently vacant.
     Politics could shift more socially conservative, as concerns over bodily contamination expand to a broader xenophobic, fear-of-death, and threat-oriented mentality.
     Touching another person's cell phone could become taboo.
     If the virus wipes out a large enough percentage of the world's elderly leaders, they could be replaced by younger leaders with more radical politics.
     Democratic traditions such as meeting as a legislature/parliament, voting, and protest could lose public support.
     High savings rates (>20%) could become the cultural norm, as it is in some Asian countries.
     



GuitarStv

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2020, 08:29:25 AM »
WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!


MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2020, 09:03:20 AM »
The market is predicting weeks, and infectious disease experts are predicting months.
Where are you getting the prediction that COVID-19 lasts over a year?

GuitarStv

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2020, 09:28:22 AM »
My wife and I have prepared a rough outline of a lesson plan for our 6 year old in the event that school closures end up lasting for longer than the three weeks that they've done so far.

vand

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2020, 10:36:06 AM »
Some random thoughts:

- Welcome novice investors who have only ever experienced the good times. Let me introduce you to the concept of risk... Risk is NOT the idea that you won't meet your financial goals because you invested too conservatively, as much as I have seen that absurd argument used to justify dialing up portfolio risk.

- Markets always over-react. They get too optimistic on the upside, and they get too pessimistic on the downside. Just as the world did not become a 30% better place to be in 2019, it has not suddenly become only 2/3rds as wonderful a place as it was 2 months ago. Things are never quite as good as the market expects during the boom, and never quite as bad as it expects during the busts.

- The sooner you learn and implement the benefits of diversification the better.

- Stop using Warren Buffett's most famous quote if you're a passive investor. Buffett is the opposite of a passive investor. In order to be greedy when everyone else is fearful, you also need to hold back a little when everyone else is being greedy, which is not generally in the FIRE 1.0 manual.

- NOW people will hopefully understand much better why I chose to prioritize paying off my mortgage early above investing over the last few years.  I have zero fear of losing the roof over my head and I also have great cashflow to put to work as the market sells off. That is a powerful combination for taking more risk now and being able to sleep soundly at night. It's not just a question of the mathematics of investing vs paying off debt. It changes your risk profile and how you feel about your investments, which is everything.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2020, 01:35:13 PM »
Adding to the list:

Everything Bubble Related
     Italy, Greece, and others may default on their debts. It will be harder to persuade EU members to bail them out this time. The Euro is at risk.

Cultural Impacts
     An entire generation of kids may lose months of higher-quality education and socialization, causing economic and cultural impacts for decades.
     A baby boom is possible.

vand

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2020, 07:39:56 PM »
The shutdown of virtually all major sporting events is really something that is one of the most noticeable impacts.

WrestleMania is surely going to be cancelled

Looking a bit further ahead we have the European Soccer championships this summer and then the Olympics, both major sporting tournaments that if not cancelled will at least be heavily impacted

Radagast

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2020, 09:11:17 PM »
I see a a fork in the road in the next month or two. One path has every society going on a month-long lock down and halting the virus before it gets going. In this scenario there is a very deep intense crash which then ricochets from the bottom like a flubber ball. Then a year long return to normal and new euphoria, and hopefully a new sense of togetherness.

Another path has the virus continue to circulate the globe at a fairly high level, disproportionately killing the older (and thus generally wealthier) population, either because the lock downs didn't go far enough or because they did but failed anyhow. In that case there will be a steady stream of moderate economic bad weather, coupled with forced selling of financial assets and real estate. This would cause two or three years of depressed prices. However this path would work out financially better for the younger crowd by the end of the decade.

Real estate markets and refinancing will remain tight and expensive for the first month(s) as people race to take advantage of low rates. After a few months everybody with the inclination to buy sell and refinance will have done so, but rates will still be low. Many people will delay home transactions. The result is that the better deals on real estate will probably begin a few months on, when new homes come on market, some people are unable to buy because of recent income loss or because they were saving their short term money in stocks, and rates are lower. Or, with path 2, the better deals are still a couple years out.

I hope the US can fix its stupendous health system because of this. It is so obvious to everybody that it is so bad...

apparently I accidentally posted a draft a few minutes ago...
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 09:33:05 PM by Radagast »

dividendman

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2020, 09:14:57 PM »
     If the virus wipes out a large enough percentage of the world's elderly leaders, they could be replaced by younger leaders with more radical politics.

It's the old folks who are the radicals.

ender

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2020, 09:40:26 PM »
I'm curious what the long term economic impact would be of a very short lived, very deadly disease amongst the elderly.

Imagine the worst case scenario here, completely uncontrolled pandemic for a short period of time and it burns out (basically the opposite of #flattenthecurve).

Would the deaths of that significant a percentage of non-income producing people be a net positive on the economy longer term?

dividendman

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2020, 09:47:55 PM »
Would the deaths of that significant a percentage of non-income producing people be a net positive on the economy longer term?

I think so. Generally, the elderly are "takers" in the economy, not givers,.

They've already paid into medicare and social security, so if they die earlier it's more money for everyone else. They are also less likely to spend money that they do earn.

If everyone over some age, let's say 65, dropped dead, it would probably be a net benefit, economically.

the_fixer

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2020, 03:11:07 PM »
One that popped to mind is all of the people that leveraged to buy short term rental properties with the thought that they will pay for themselves.

With the ski season being shut down here in Colorado so early and travel grinding to a halt pretty much everywhere short term rental markets are going to suffer I suspect.

Vacation markets typically are very volatile so I am going to keep my eye open to see if some interesting opportunities come about to buy a beach property or maybe a ski property.


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Joe Schmo

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2020, 07:21:10 AM »
In no particular order:

-Someone said shit will hit the fan again at 10k US cases (set to happen circa midday 3/19)

-I predict 100k US cases (at least) by 1 April

-I watched today: IF THE PEOPLE LOSE FAITH IN THE DON AND BIDEN SHOWS STRENGTH GOING INTO THE ELECTION...another round of shit fan hitting could very well ensue

-I don’t buy China’s CORONA numbers
—also they had/have the ability to force people to be shit inside
——we don’t and people haven’t
———was it too late to stop a 300k, 500k, ___k outbreak in the US?
————-is the shortage of supplies and hospital beds/etc gonna be a very real thing?

-at some point there will be good news on the virus/treatment/numbers in the US but I feel that is likely a monthish away

Plugra

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2020, 07:39:07 AM »
Quote
Welcome novice investors who have only ever experienced the good times. Let me introduce you to the concept of risk...

IKR?  I remember the 1987 crash as if it was, well, 33 years ago.

My worry about a multi-month pandemic is not just the obliteration of entire sectors of industry (airlines, amusement parks, movie theaters, restaurants) which is already in progress... There is also the sort of obvious fact that the surviving parts of the economy cannot possibly maintain productivity under these conditions.  In my job I am supposed to be working at home, but it just isn't that easy to do much of what I need to do and I am bracing myself for shrinking productivity all around.

In short, prepare for economic output to shrink to the level of (say) several decades ago, for an extended period, with commensurate decrease in national income.  Salaries will have to reflect this eventually. It may be like living in the 1960s, except with wifi. 


dougules

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2020, 08:20:53 AM »
Quote
Welcome novice investors who have only ever experienced the good times. Let me introduce you to the concept of risk...

IKR?  I remember the 1987 crash as if it was, well, 33 years ago.

My worry about a multi-month pandemic is not just the obliteration of entire sectors of industry (airlines, amusement parks, movie theaters, restaurants) which is already in progress... There is also the sort of obvious fact that the surviving parts of the economy cannot possibly maintain productivity under these conditions.  In my job I am supposed to be working at home, but it just isn't that easy to do much of what I need to do and I am bracing myself for shrinking productivity all around.

In short, prepare for economic output to shrink to the level of (say) several decades ago, for an extended period, with commensurate decrease in national income.  Salaries will have to reflect this eventually. It may be like living in the 1960s, except with wifi.

While I'm a little more optimistic about how long it will take to clean up the economic aftermath, if you're right, people that learned ways to reduce their expenses will be in a better place.  Learning cooking, gardening, and DIY repairs will pay big dividends.  Folks who forwent the big truck and the 3000 sq ft house will be grateful for that decision.  My grandmother grew up in rural Alabama during the depression and WWII.  She raised a family in the 1960s with luxuries she didn't have as a child.  My grandmother got the luxury of buying food she didn't have to grow.  She got a nice 1000 sq ft house, and she could just turn a thermostat dial for heat.  A nighttime bathroom break meant just walking into the next room.  Most of us will probably be able to keep all of this... plus wifi to boot. 

the_fixer

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2020, 08:40:33 AM »
Quote
Welcome novice investors who have only ever experienced the good times. Let me introduce you to the concept of risk...

It may be like living in the 1960s, except with wifi.

Free love, weed and good music with the bonus of WiFi...


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soccerluvof4

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2020, 01:05:09 PM »
Would the deaths of that significant a percentage of non-income producing people be a net positive on the economy longer term?

I think so. Generally, the elderly are "takers" in the economy, not givers,.

They've already paid into medicare and social security, so if they die earlier it's more money for everyone else. They are also less likely to spend money that they do earn.

If everyone over some age, let's say 65, dropped dead, it would probably be a net benefit, economically.


Morbid thought there.

Montecarlo

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2020, 01:24:07 PM »
Anyone see Ackman's meltdown on CNBC?  He basically called for a 30 day shutdown of the worldwide economy and admitted only strongly capitalized companies would survive it.  Part of me wonders if he's less concerned about the health of his fellow humans and more concerned about increasing market share of these highly capitalized companies he owns.

In other news, central banks think low interest rates will spur vaccine development and asset purchases will cure companies ailing from zero revenues.

I'm actually surprised the stock market isn't down more given the incredible levels on panic.

Me?  I'm not worried.  I have a paid off house, an aquaponics garden, and a year's supply of rice and dried beans in the basement.  Stuff lasts forever if you keep it dry, it's cheap, and good protein source.

Montecarlo

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2020, 01:34:46 PM »
Quote
Welcome novice investors who have only ever experienced the good times. Let me introduce you to the concept of risk...

IKR?  I remember the 1987 crash as if it was, well, 33 years ago.

My worry about a multi-month pandemic is not just the obliteration of entire sectors of industry (airlines, amusement parks, movie theaters, restaurants) which is already in progress... There is also the sort of obvious fact that the surviving parts of the economy cannot possibly maintain productivity under these conditions.  In my job I am supposed to be working at home, but it just isn't that easy to do much of what I need to do and I am bracing myself for shrinking productivity all around.

In short, prepare for economic output to shrink to the level of (say) several decades ago, for an extended period, with commensurate decrease in national income.  Salaries will have to reflect this eventually. It may be like living in the 1960s, except with wifi.

I'm supposed to be working right now but I'm reading forum comments at my kitchen table...

bthewalls

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2020, 01:47:54 PM »
WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!



so funny...the public hysteria is just shocking....sheep

FIPurpose

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2020, 01:55:53 PM »
Would the deaths of that significant a percentage of non-income producing people be a net positive on the economy longer term?

I think so. Generally, the elderly are "takers" in the economy, not givers,.

They've already paid into medicare and social security, so if they die earlier it's more money for everyone else. They are also less likely to spend money that they do earn.

If everyone over some age, let's say 65, dropped dead, it would probably be a net benefit, economically.

This is really hard to say for sure. This question has also popped into my head recently.

Some quick estimates:

Average social security check is 1500/month
Average cost of medicare per recipient is 11000/year
Social security assumes that the average person will draw for 20 years.

So someone dying right at 65 means that the government's liability is reduced by ~ 360k in SS ~220k in Medicare, or right around 600k overall.

But there's also a loss of economic activity. There would be a real loss to hospitals, restaurants, travel, and leisure industries that depend on old people with lots of free time and money. They also return a percentage of that money back with property, sales, fees, and other taxes. I could very easily see that the benefits/losses might not actually be that great.

Not to mention all the real work that retirees do such as free baby sitting for their grandkids, volunteering, etc.

My guess is that even losing our oldest people is at best a wash.

bthewalls

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2020, 02:06:21 PM »
Heres my opinion.

Covid 19 will be relatively contained in next few months...taking into consideration up to 650,000 die in USA a year with normal flu (up to 28,000 in uk). 

Trump may re-inflate the market by using the $850billion ish funds (Ł350billion in uk) to get re-elected, with little concern about subsequent effects.  Interest rates will remain dangerous low and leave almost no means to stimulate the market during the next slow down/bubble burst.

Following the next financial recession/depression, the lack of ability to stimulate the market and limited ability of fiscal policy will result in an unprecedented financial depression, dollar devaluation and hyperinflation for several years.

...just a theory....

bthewalls

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2020, 02:10:26 PM »
Some random thoughts:

- Welcome novice investors who have only ever experienced the good times. Let me introduce you to the concept of risk... Risk is NOT the idea that you won't meet your financial goals because you invested too conservatively, as much as I have seen that absurd argument used to justify dialing up portfolio risk.

- Markets always over-react. They get too optimistic on the upside, and they get too pessimistic on the downside. Just as the world did not become a 30% better place to be in 2019, it has not suddenly become only 2/3rds as wonderful a place as it was 2 months ago. Things are never quite as good as the market expects during the boom, and never quite as bad as it expects during the busts.

- The sooner you learn and implement the benefits of diversification the better.

- Stop using Warren Buffett's most famous quote if you're a passive investor. Buffett is the opposite of a passive investor. In order to be greedy when everyone else is fearful, you also need to hold back a little when everyone else is being greedy, which is not generally in the FIRE 1.0 manual.

- NOW people will hopefully understand much better why I chose to prioritize paying off my mortgage early above investing over the last few years.  I have zero fear of losing the roof over my head and I also have great cashflow to put to work as the market sells off. That is a powerful combination for taking more risk now and being able to sleep soundly at night. It's not just a question of the mathematics of investing vs paying off debt. It changes your risk profile and how you feel about your investments, which is everything.

Love this post....its so on them money....I did the same, paid off the mortage and now dont give a shit what happens and can continue to dollar point in ovver time....no stress no covid drama....

well written dude

bendixso123

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2020, 02:22:32 PM »
I'm curious what the long term economic impact would be of a very short lived, very deadly disease amongst the elderly.

Imagine the worst case scenario here, completely uncontrolled pandemic for a short period of time and it burns out (basically the opposite of #flattenthecurve).

Would the deaths of that significant a percentage of non-income producing people be a net positive on the economy longer term?

I wonder. They might not be income producing, but older folks contribute in all kinds of other ways. They're probably providing childcare for their grandkids, volunteering, that sort of thing

atribecalledquest

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2020, 02:25:17 PM »
Vacation markets typically are very volatile so I am going to keep my eye open to see if some interesting opportunities come about to buy a beach property or maybe a ski property.

...climate change has entered the chat...

atribecalledquest

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2020, 02:30:24 PM »
Covid 19 will be relatively contained in next few months...taking into consideration up to 650,000 die in USA a year with normal flu (up to 28,000 in uk). 

WTF are you talking about. In the US about 10,000 to 30,000 die a year. You are orders of magnitude off.

bthewalls

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2020, 02:33:13 PM »
Covid 19 will be relatively contained in next few months...taking into consideration up to 650,000 die in USA a year with normal flu (up to 28,000 in uk). 

WTF are you talking about. In the US about 10,000 to 30,000 die a year. You are orders of magnitude off.

shit your right...its not USA its globally...reference source:

The WHO estimates that between 290,000 and 650,000 respiratory deaths globally each year are associated with ‘normal’ seasonal influenza.  Public Health England estimates that on average 17,000 people have died from the flu in England annually between 2014/15 and 2018/19.  However, the yearly deaths vary widely from a high of 28,330 in 2014/15 to a low of 1,692 in 2018/19.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2020, 02:38:02 PM »
You all aren’t organizing our thoughts. I’m trying to (1) identify unforeseen risk and opportunity areas, (2) sort possibilities into categories, and (3) create a way to weigh fast-changing information to support investment decisions. We all have an interest in that.

bendixso123

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2020, 02:38:14 PM »
Vacation markets typically are very volatile so I am going to keep my eye open to see if some interesting opportunities come about to buy a beach property or maybe a ski property.

...climate change has entered the chat...

Fuck yeah me too! I already live at the base of a ski area and have wanted to snap up a place

FIPurpose

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2020, 04:21:43 PM »
Covid 19 will be relatively contained in next few months...taking into consideration up to 650,000 die in USA a year with normal flu (up to 28,000 in uk). 

WTF are you talking about. In the US about 10,000 to 30,000 die a year. You are orders of magnitude off.

shit your right...its not USA its globally...reference source:

The WHO estimates that between 290,000 and 650,000 respiratory deaths globally each year are associated with ‘normal’ seasonal influenza.  Public Health England estimates that on average 17,000 people have died from the flu in England annually between 2014/15 and 2018/19.  However, the yearly deaths vary widely from a high of 28,330 in 2014/15 to a low of 1,692 in 2018/19.

And if this ends up infecting 30% of the globe like the Spanish Flu did, then we'd be looking at a death count of ~80 Million people. Yes this is bad. Do not downplay this. Yes there is a possibility that we could have this contained long before that point, but so far, the numbers are still growing exponentially. And the number of people that refuse to distance themselves socially aren't giving me hope of this ending soon.

American GenX

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2020, 05:31:18 PM »
Would the deaths of that significant a percentage of non-income producing people be a net positive on the economy longer term?

I think so. Generally, the elderly are "takers" in the economy, not givers,.

They've already paid into medicare and social security, so if they die earlier it's more money for everyone else. They are also less likely to spend money that they do earn.

If everyone over some age, let's say 65, dropped dead, it would probably be a net benefit, economically.

This is really hard to say for sure. This question has also popped into my head recently.

Some quick estimates:

Average social security check is 1500/month
Average cost of medicare per recipient is 11000/year
Social security assumes that the average person will draw for 20 years.

So someone dying right at 65 means that the government's liability is reduced by ~ 360k in SS ~220k in Medicare, or right around 600k overall.

But there's also a loss of economic activity. There would be a real loss to hospitals, restaurants, travel, and leisure industries that depend on old people with lots of free time and money. They also return a percentage of that money back with property, sales, fees, and other taxes. I could very easily see that the benefits/losses might not actually be that great.

Not to mention all the real work that retirees do such as free baby sitting for their grandkids, volunteering, etc.

My guess is that even losing our oldest people is at best a wash.

Also, there are the ones, both younger and older, who won't die, but who are left with debilitating costly health problems as a result of COVID-19 that will last the rest of their lives.

FIKris

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2020, 05:41:50 PM »
Adding to the list:

Cultural Impacts
   ...
     A baby boom is possible.

They'll call them the "quaran-teens"

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2020, 10:40:17 PM »
You all aren’t organizing our thoughts. I’m trying to (1) identify unforeseen risk and opportunity areas, (2) sort possibilities into categories, and (3) create a way to weigh fast-changing information to support investment decisions. We all have an interest in that.
I'll try and help you get this back on track - but I've flipped to the opposite viewpoint.

In Italy and France, people are violating quarantine - they're testing the new limits imposed on them.  I heard tens of thousands were being fined for being out during the lock down.  In China, the lock down greatly slowed the virus.  Yes, businesses shut down... but governments around the world are stepping up to pass relief packages for workers and businesses.  Governments are aiming to blunt the impact.

The way to think about this epidemic is in terms of testing, in my opinion.  When there isn't enough testing, the virus spreads unchecked - nobody knows who has it, and who should stop contacting other people.  When testing is excessive, uncertainty evaporates, and it's clear who has the virus - and which of their friends should also be in quarantine.  Pay careful attention to the rate of testing - not the number of cases.

According to a White House press briefing earlier this week, the number of cases is about to spike upwards as more testing is performed.  People might get scared of the number of new cases, but it's the wrong thing to focus on.  The key is that more testing is being performed, making the overall picture more clear.  The claim was made that previous platforms had a capability of roughly 10 tests/day, and new ones will be "millions per day" (in total, or each, I don't know).  If testing happens 10x more or 100x more, that will change everything about the outbreak.

If people are measuring exponential growth until a vaccine is found, of course they will get insane numbers of cases and widespread impact.  But look at history - take MERS, another corona virus.  A vaccine was never developed - it takes too long, and once the epidemic is over, it's not worth it.  So look back at similar epidemics, and see how vaccines are not developed (there is a flu vaccine, and Swine flu did have a vaccine.  But not for a corona virus like MERS or COVID-19).

Bloomberg TV had someone on from... Harvard Medical School, I think.  He explained that normally it's very hard to find enough people for the testing stage of a vaccine - it can take years.  President Trump said what took years now happened in record time, trying to claim credit.  That's very misleading - what actually happened is during an epidemic, there are plenty of people available who are at risk and willing to be part of testing.  Vaccine testing takes a long time - if you think it can be rushed, please read up on it if testing the safety and effectiveness of a vaccine on ever larger numbers of people.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/03/19/opinion/why-will-coronavirus-vaccine-take-so-long/

So I claim the way to measure this epidemic is with testing.  Some evidence for that comes from Korea, which tested and tracked aggressively.  Italy did not, and has 4x more cases than Korea.  The U.S. did not, and despite the outbreak starting later, now has about 1/3rd more cases than South Korea.  Look to Korea's example to see that testing can make a big difference.

That's why to me the whole COVID-19 situation boils down to how fast will testing roll out, compared to how fast will the virus spread.

Joe Schmo

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2020, 11:18:33 PM »
Well said bstrd.
The thing is...I thought Washington (Seattle area/international airport...the one with lots of Asian flights) was the outbreak monkey for this whole thing and their numbers have barely moved. Me thinks not much testing. No bueno.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2020, 03:02:17 AM »
Dr Birx, head of the government's response to COVID-19, specifically mentioned 50% of cases are found among three states, and mentioned Washington as one of them (plus NY and CA).  There's no chance she doesn't know about the need for testing in Washington.  What data do you have that Washington isn't getting tested?

GuitarStv

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2020, 04:59:41 AM »
Adding to the list:

Cultural Impacts
   ...
     A baby boom is possible.

They'll call them the "quaran-teens"

So far, this is the best thing to come out of this thread.  :P

ender

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2020, 06:34:31 AM »
I'll try and help you get this back on track - but I've flipped to the opposite viewpoint.

In Italy and France, people are violating quarantine - they're testing the new limits imposed on them.  I heard tens of thousands were being fined for being out during the lock down.  In China, the lock down greatly slowed the virus.  Yes, businesses shut down... but governments around the world are stepping up to pass relief packages for workers and businesses.  Governments are aiming to blunt the impact.

The way to think about this epidemic is in terms of testing, in my opinion.  When there isn't enough testing, the virus spreads unchecked - nobody knows who has it, and who should stop contacting other people.  When testing is excessive, uncertainty evaporates, and it's clear who has the virus - and which of their friends should also be in quarantine.  Pay careful attention to the rate of testing - not the number of cases.

I largely agree with you.

I also am curious how long governments can sustain relief packages for what effectively is a huge percentage of the economy being shut down. I suspect we will be feeling the impact of this much longer than covid19.

bthewalls

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2020, 06:40:04 AM »
Hypothetical stiuation?

1. USA goes into mass hysterica when covid 19 really starts to spread.  USA is about 2 weeks behind so far...ish?
2. Stock drop 50%..ish?  But the stimlus package will be used up, combined with the reduced interest rates and other nice stuff.
3. Market will become super heated for a while, them fall off a cliff in next down turn?

sound about right?

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2020, 07:20:39 AM »
Both etfdb and morningstar list Vanguard Total Stock Market ETF (VTI) as having a -30% performance for the past 4 weeks, and -27% year to date.  So it's not -50%, but more like -30% right now.

I'm not sure what you mean by "covid 19 starts to spread" - hasn't it already?  USA is 2 weeks behind what other country?

bthewalls

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2020, 11:53:53 AM »
Both etfdb and morningstar list Vanguard Total Stock Market ETF (VTI) as having a -30% performance for the past 4 weeks, and -27% year to date.  So it's not -50%, but more like -30% right now.

I'm not sure what you mean by "covid 19 starts to spread" - hasn't it already?  USA is 2 weeks behind what other country?

so hard to discuss anything in a friendly fun manner on this forum anymore, ever word is dissected anally

so I bet start clarifying...yes am aware that is not at -50% right now, yes am aware its c. -30% right now....what I mean is that covid hasn't full developed in USA yet.

Jesus christ guys, any thought before hitting the send button?

ender

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2020, 12:58:13 PM »
Both etfdb and morningstar list Vanguard Total Stock Market ETF (VTI) as having a -30% performance for the past 4 weeks, and -27% year to date.  So it's not -50%, but more like -30% right now.

I'm not sure what you mean by "covid 19 starts to spread" - hasn't it already?  USA is 2 weeks behind what other country?

so hard to discuss anything in a friendly fun manner on this forum anymore, ever word is dissected anally

so I bet start clarifying...yes am aware that is not at -50% right now, yes am aware its c. -30% right now....what I mean is that covid hasn't full developed in USA yet.

Jesus christ guys, any thought before hitting the send button?

Maybe don't troll a serious thread?

ChpBstrd

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2020, 02:54:57 PM »
Both etfdb and morningstar list Vanguard Total Stock Market ETF (VTI) as having a -30% performance for the past 4 weeks, and -27% year to date.  So it's not -50%, but more like -30% right now.

I'm not sure what you mean by "covid 19 starts to spread" - hasn't it already?  USA is 2 weeks behind what other country?

so hard to discuss anything in a friendly fun manner on this forum anymore, ever word is dissected anally

so I bet start clarifying...yes am aware that is not at -50% right now, yes am aware its c. -30% right now....what I mean is that covid hasn't full developed in USA yet.

Jesus christ guys, any thought before hitting the send button?

Maybe don't troll a serious thread?

I gave up on the serious thread part. Was hoping to brainstorm the risks and opportunities. The internet is just not the right tool for some things, or at certain times.

bthewalls

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2020, 03:05:22 PM »
seems so....very disappointing

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2020, 05:35:57 PM »
Would the deaths of that significant a percentage of non-income producing people be a net positive on the economy longer term?

I think so. Generally, the elderly are "takers" in the economy, not givers,.

They've already paid into medicare and social security, so if they die earlier it's more money for everyone else. They are also less likely to spend money that they do earn.

If everyone over some age, let's say 65, dropped dead, it would probably be a net benefit, economically.

The unvarnished  arithmetic of an oldsters' die-off would also result in increased inheritances.

Heirs would have money to spend  and they could keep the  inherited real estate (much of it handsomely appreciated) or sell it and buy the home of their choosing.


Wrenchturner

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2020, 06:46:13 PM »
You all aren’t organizing our thoughts. I’m trying to (1) identify unforeseen risk and opportunity areas, (2) sort possibilities into categories, and (3) create a way to weigh fast-changing information to support investment decisions. We all have an interest in that.
I'll try and help you get this back on track - but I've flipped to the opposite viewpoint.

In Italy and France, people are violating quarantine - they're testing the new limits imposed on them.  I heard tens of thousands were being fined for being out during the lock down.  In China, the lock down greatly slowed the virus.  Yes, businesses shut down... but governments around the world are stepping up to pass relief packages for workers and businesses.  Governments are aiming to blunt the impact.

The way to think about this epidemic is in terms of testing, in my opinion.  When there isn't enough testing, the virus spreads unchecked - nobody knows who has it, and who should stop contacting other people.  When testing is excessive, uncertainty evaporates, and it's clear who has the virus - and which of their friends should also be in quarantine.  Pay careful attention to the rate of testing - not the number of cases.

According to a White House press briefing earlier this week, the number of cases is about to spike upwards as more testing is performed.  People might get scared of the number of new cases, but it's the wrong thing to focus on.  The key is that more testing is being performed, making the overall picture more clear.  The claim was made that previous platforms had a capability of roughly 10 tests/day, and new ones will be "millions per day" (in total, or each, I don't know).  If testing happens 10x more or 100x more, that will change everything about the outbreak.

If people are measuring exponential growth until a vaccine is found, of course they will get insane numbers of cases and widespread impact.  But look at history - take MERS, another corona virus.  A vaccine was never developed - it takes too long, and once the epidemic is over, it's not worth it.  So look back at similar epidemics, and see how vaccines are not developed (there is a flu vaccine, and Swine flu did have a vaccine.  But not for a corona virus like MERS or COVID-19).

Bloomberg TV had someone on from... Harvard Medical School, I think.  He explained that normally it's very hard to find enough people for the testing stage of a vaccine - it can take years.  President Trump said what took years now happened in record time, trying to claim credit.  That's very misleading - what actually happened is during an epidemic, there are plenty of people available who are at risk and willing to be part of testing.  Vaccine testing takes a long time - if you think it can be rushed, please read up on it if testing the safety and effectiveness of a vaccine on ever larger numbers of people.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/03/19/opinion/why-will-coronavirus-vaccine-take-so-long/

So I claim the way to measure this epidemic is with testing.  Some evidence for that comes from Korea, which tested and tracked aggressively.  Italy did not, and has 4x more cases than Korea.  The U.S. did not, and despite the outbreak starting later, now has about 1/3rd more cases than South Korea.  Look to Korea's example to see that testing can make a big difference.

That's why to me the whole COVID-19 situation boils down to how fast will testing roll out, compared to how fast will the virus spread.

Good post!  I think China and Italy will be the places to look at if you want to see a couple weeks ahead of the rest of the world.  As for actually seeing far enough ahead with enough resolution/low enough error to actually make informed investment choices, I'd say good luck with that @ChpBstrd.  Most indicators are lagging, the game theory/psychology will interfere, the curve might roll off sooner or later than expected, the market(s) may or may not assess this accordingly.  Maybe this should be viewed like a trader, rather than an investor?  What do I know...

verfrugal

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2020, 12:41:13 PM »
Would the deaths of that significant a percentage of non-income producing people be a net positive on the economy longer term?

I think so. Generally, the elderly are "takers" in the economy, not givers,.

They've already paid into medicare and social security, so if they die earlier it's more money for everyone else. They are also less likely to spend money that they do earn.

If everyone over some age, let's say 65, dropped dead, it would probably be a net benefit, economically.

Your notion of what is given and taken is extremely myopic, and I would guess a reflection of your confusion of econometrics and finance with economy.  The economy is how we go thru the day to day and reproduce generation after generation, and a fraction of it is captured in GDP, wages, employment and the like.

tankhead

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2020, 01:15:16 PM »


- NOW people will hopefully understand much better why I chose to prioritize paying off my mortgage early above investing over the last few years.  I have zero fear of losing the roof over my head and I also have great cashflow to put to work as the market sells off. That is a powerful combination for taking more risk now and being able to sleep soundly at night. It's not just a question of the mathematics of investing vs paying off debt. It changes your risk profile and how you feel about your investments, which is everything.


THIS ^ That is why we sold after dumping so much money into our 2.39% @ 10 year mortgage instead of investing all in our 401k/403b and IRAs.  I was told by a high end real estate mortgage guy while vacationing in Maine this summer to sell by the latest May, 2020 because of an incoming crash of the real estate market. I had sensed this for months before.. I came home from that trip, spent three months painting, preparing, fixing, and getting the house on the market by January.  We put it on the market the week before thanksgiving on a whim with an open house the next weekend and had a signed contract in 14 days. Settled the second week of January. WHHHHEEEEEEWWWW.  We cashed out and are renting and will never buy again in the state of NJ again.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 01:17:14 PM by tankhead »

marty998

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2020, 02:16:15 PM »
Covid 19 will be relatively contained in next few months...taking into consideration up to 650,000 die in USA a year with normal flu (up to 28,000 in uk). 

WTF are you talking about. In the US about 10,000 to 30,000 die a year. You are orders of magnitude off.

shit your right...its not USA its globally...reference source:

The WHO estimates that between 290,000 and 650,000 respiratory deaths globally each year are associated with ‘normal’ seasonal influenza.  Public Health England estimates that on average 17,000 people have died from the flu in England annually between 2014/15 and 2018/19.  However, the yearly deaths vary widely from a high of 28,330 in 2014/15 to a low of 1,692 in 2018/19.

And if this ends up infecting 30% of the globe like the Spanish Flu did, then we'd be looking at a death count of ~80 Million people. Yes this is bad. Do not downplay this. Yes there is a possibility that we could have this contained long before that point, but so far, the numbers are still growing exponentially. And the number of people that refuse to distance themselves socially aren't giving me hope of this ending soon.

80 million people is about the annual population growth of the world.

However the spread is not even - it seems China and India won't be hit in proportion to that (27 million people). You guys do the math on what that means for other countries... it ain't pretty.

bthewalls

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2020, 02:46:05 PM »
Jesus that a shocking loss of life and is entirely possible...considering too that 3rd world countries have little to no medical support. 

Also, once hospitals get over run and staff get sick, even moderate condition that require low level treatment can go untreated and scale up.

china seem to have done a highly efficient lock down.

Here is northern Ireland, the public are largely ignoring advise to stay in and not mix. Its the same in uk.  Beaches are packed, as are vacation towns.....well be screwed in about 3 /4 weeks due to ignorance and stupidity. 

ender

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Re: Let's organize our thoughts about COVID-19
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2020, 07:22:36 PM »
Jesus that a shocking loss of life and is entirely possible...considering too that 3rd world countries have little to no medical support. 

One thing to consider is how dramatically younger most of those countries are.