KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog

[MrConstitution]

I came across the situation regarding MMM from an article posted on Techdirt. What can I say, I always keep up to date on issues regarding website owners. While I run and operate my own website and message forums, going on ten years now, I'm aware of the rights and responsibilities I have as a website administrator. While the members of my community don't post anything slanderous or libel, which is against the policy of my site, I was appalled that MMM received a Cease and Desist regarding the discussion of Kiss Trust and the discussion of "Kiss Trust".

Far as what I do know, business, corporations, governments and people cannot order you not to discuss something. Discussing "Kiss Trust" would be a violation of MMM's constitutional rights as guaranteed under the First Amendment. These are absolute and it seems like Kiss Trust is trying to throw every possible law at your site in an effort to scare you guys into backing down.

While this is not legal advice, as I would advise MMM to consult an attorney, I don't believe there is a single court in this country who would find for Eastern Point Trust Company or Kiss Trust because this would be violating your constitutional rights. If a court found for Kiss Trust, the federal appellate courts would, more than likely, overturn that decision. If they didn't, it would not survive a U.S. Supreme Court challenge.

I'm just appalled that Eastern Point Trust Company would try to scare you guys into removing your topics or posts discussing Kiss Trust.

The only thing a court could do is order you to remove the offending messages. They would not force you to remove the topics discussing Kiss Trust. Eastern Point Trust Company is just on the losing side and they simply don't want this going to court, because they would lose. They would also have to prove the defamation in the posts on your forums, and those are hard to prove, unless the posts are blatantly false.

[bwall]

[And when they were searching hard to find and deal with any potential negative comments, they reached a junction in their path with three possible routes:

1). Do nothing. You're never going to satisfy everyone, so a few complaints or negative comments isn't going to break them
2). Start a civil, open dialog on said forum with full disclosure of working for the company and try and address the complaint.
3). Threaten legal action for a forum post

The chose poorly and chose #3. If your product ISN'T kind of shady or questionable and you can make a reasonable defense of it, #2 is usually the best approach to take- if you can explain/defend your product and practices and are solid and you're not a dick, you can probably garner some new customers. I've seen this countless times on other specialty boards (usually auto enthusiast boards where vendors will address and resolve issues and basically prove they stand behind their products).

Very good point. I agree wholeheartedly that it would be kinda cool if a rep from KISS Trust came to the site and explain why it wasn't poor value, as Sol stated, perhaps ineloquently as it turns out.

But since they chose to send threatening letters it got me to thinking. . . . What if someone had called Bernie Madoff a scammer in 1998, a good 10 years before the scam was uncovered? If Madoff had sent threatening letters, taken this person to court and won, would the guilty sentence then be vacated after the fraud was uncovered? Or by some other mechanism could the court try to turn back the clock or restore the lost honor of our hypothetical libeler after the fraud was exposed? Obviously, in this hypothetical the person had the opportunity to make his case in court and lost, but that still wouldn't change the fact that Madoff was later declared to be running a scam. Perhaps a legal form of 'DNA exoneration' where there was only money at stake and not a person's life?

And then I got to thinking further, just because I find this so fascinating:

I do like to watch 'American Greed' a television show about the kind of scammers that take your money and run, it did get me to thinking: 'If I were looking to acquire a lot of other people's money and use it all for my own purposes, then the business model employed by KISS Trust would appear to be an attractive method to achieve this goal.' Perhaps this is why KISS Trust is so vigilant to protect their reputation? I would like to state for the record that I do not understand the KISS Trust business model very well and I would welcome anyone, KISS or even one of their competitors to explain where the safeguards are so that customers' money cannot simply disappear.

I guess that KISS Trust will remain silent on this issue and these posts as they have sent nasty letters to MMM. Perhaps this would be a good opportunity for the competition to come forward and explain why their products available in this field are indeed a good value? Sol expressly asked for this and no one has stepped up. I'd second his request and ask:

Why are the KISS Trust products (or similar) good value?

[EscapeVelocity2020]

(also commenting to follow thread)  We should always be careful not to jump out and say something that puts the forum owner at risk.  Like Pirate Bay and Napster, it's a sad day when they provide a good outlet for discussion and some bad apples get carried away at the wrong time.  The internet will overcome, however we are setting good people back by rushing the process, if we get carried away bashing Kiss Trust during a legal encumbrance.  The best thing ever would be to stay quiet after their ham-fisted accusations, getting all 'lawyer up and death-match' benefits no-one.  We (Mustachians) are in another unique position to change the course of law, we should respect this moment and do the right thing, which involves a little humility and being open-minded.  I do think that judges, if it gets to that, appreciate plaintiffs that are confused by how screwed up legal machinations are.

[DoubleDown]

I do think that judges, if it gets to that, appreciate plaintiffs that are confused by how screwed up legal machinations are.

If only that were true! Unfortunately it's almost always the opposite. Judges are far more likely to resent plaintiffs that do not have a solid command of the legal machinations, and will not extend any mercy or gentle treatment for ignorance of the system. But that's just me railing on some of the aspects of the legal system, I would never expect this situation with MMM ever to reach court.

[Bigote]

There's now an article about all this on Techdirt. 

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140313/07405826562/company-fires-off-legal-threats-to-site-owner-over-third-party-forum-post-self-inflicted-damage-ensues.shtml

[Blindsquirrel]

   Learned a lot from the techdirt article. It appears that the trust people engage in Astroturfing  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing    which is a new one on me. If you look at them on Wikipedia it looks like the wrote their own entry given the rainbows and sunshine on the page. Good luck MMM, I enjoy the blog immensely and the board.

[arebelspy]

There's now an article about all this on Techdirt. 

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140313/07405826562/company-fires-off-legal-threats-to-site-owner-over-third-party-forum-post-self-inflicted-damage-ensues.shtml

Wow, that was quite informative!

As the article says, Kiss Trust has kinda stepped into it...

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I do think that judges, if it gets to that, appreciate plaintiffs that are confused by how screwed up legal machinations are.

If only that were true! Unfortunately it's almost always the opposite. Judges are far more likely to resent plaintiffs that do not have a solid command of the legal machinations, and will not extend any mercy or gentle treatment for ignorance of the system. But that's just me railing on some of the aspects of the legal system, I would never expect this situation with MMM ever to reach court.

You're probably right, fortunately I only have had one brush with being in court and I'll do anything to avoid going through that again (shivers).  Talk about a screwy way of trying to formalize common sense...

[Alfred J Quack]

Lol... After reading the Techdirt article I went to the Kisstrust.com webpage. Scrolling down I noticed a Batmobile (technical drawing of it anyway. I find it distasteful that a company with these business standards uses a comic-hero's car who is big on justice and ethics...

Also makes me wonder whether they pay copyright fees for images hosted on their site...

[clifp]

This is one of the more popcorn worthy fights on the internet.. It seems almost to one side,  since Kiss Trust seen to have neither the law nor justice on its side.

I wonder how much Kiss Trust legal fees are going to run.. I am hoping for a lot.

[Thomas]

...
 makes me wonder whether they pay copyright fees for images hosted on their site...

I wondered the same thing about their front-page picture that prominently features two products from a well-known fruit based computer company.
I'd like to fill the rest of this comment with negative words for search engines to associate with Kiss trust, but they seem like the kind of company that wouldn't see the humor in that. I doubt they see stealing images for use on their website as theft of intellectual property, but would probably complain loudly if anyone were to share bits and pieces of their overpriced Mad Libs-style trust document.

(Mad Libs is a registered trademark, and the worlds greatest word game, created by Leonard Stern and Roger Price)

[Mr Mark]

The legal over-response to a simple opinion on a blog forum is indicative of having something to hide, it seems to me.

It reminds me of similar companies in the financial services area with significant fees. De veer group, for example. Very litigious, because they are indeed high fee, and any rational investor would avoid it. But with advertising and a commission driven sales force, people will buy in my opionion what are inefficient financial products, even things like variable annuities and universal life.

"The Lady doth protest too much"

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lady_doth_protest_too_much,_methinks

[cowstash]

Want to know something interesting I've found? The attorney who sent the latter letter(s) to MMM, George S. Robinson IV, claims on his website to, among other things, represent NSA contractors http://www.2rlaw.com/george.php

 

[KingCoin]

The legal over-response to a simple opinion on a blog forum is indicative of having something to hide, it seems to me.

I don't know. I'm inclined to be mildly sympathetic. If you were looking to use a boutique financial service company, and the third link on Google loudly proclaimed that it was a "scam", how would you feel about using that company, even knowing that it's just the opinion of a random forum user? How would you feel if a top Google link groundlessly claimed that your company was a "scam"?

Where they went wrong is not trying to resolve the issue amicably like human beings. It's amazing what a friendly appeal for understanding and sympathy can accomplish. There were probably five different ways to skin this particular cat without resorting to the legal system.

[arebelspy]

The legal over-response to a simple opinion on a blog forum is indicative of having something to hide, it seems to me.

I don't know. I'm inclined to be mildly sympathetic. If you were looking to use a boutique financial service company, and the third link on Google loudly proclaimed that it was a "scam", how would you feel about using that company, even knowing that it's just the opinion of a random forum user? How would you feel if a top Google link groundlessly claimed that your company was a "scam"?

I agree with that, and agree they could have handled it better.  I'm more sympathetic to Kiss Trust than I am the other company threatening lawsuits, due to the fact that the other company has a history of this (see: LTR blog) and had an employee coming on and anonymously astroturfing (AND Kiss Trust's complaint was more legitimate, i.e. the comment they wanted taken down was more libelous than the LTR comment about the other company).

But either way, legal threats aren't the way to go.  Open and honest communication is.

[sol]

If you were looking to use a boutique financial service company, and the third link on Google loudly proclaimed that it was a "scam", how would you feel about using that company, even knowing that it's just the opinion of a random forum user? How would you feel if a top Google link groundlessly claimed that your company was a "scam"?

I'd agree with you, if the threatened legal action was about the supposedly libelous "scam" claim.  Except that MMM removed that thread as requested, and the OP* promptly posted a retraction.  All subsequent legal threats have been to suppress THIS thread, or any related discussion of the company's legal threats or other business practices.  They're literally threatening legal action solely to prevent us from talking about their threats of legal action.  This no longer has anything to do with the (now deleted) original comments.

and had an employee coming on and anonymously astroturfing (AND Kiss Trust's complaint was more legitimate, i.e. the comment they wanted taken down was more libelous than the LTR comment about the other company).

Let's not forget that the KISS Trust people also tried to astroturf the forum months ago, when Bart showed up and, as his first two posts, started talking about what a great product the Kiss Trust was and didn't we all want to learn more about it?  The only difference between that little piece of astroturf and the Everest Wealth Management astroturf is that the KISS Trust attempt was blatantly obvious and was removed as spam, while the Everest Wealth Management attempt was slipped into an existing thread and remained anonymous for multiple posts before being discovered.  Let's not give the Kiss Trust folks at Eastern Point Trust Company any credibility on this issue just because they were spammier about it.

*OP=sol=me, talking about myself in the third person.

[arebelspy]

Both of those paragraphs make excellent points.

[dragoncar]

Why did MMM remove the entire thread?  As I recall, he originally redacted just the offending post.   Will future threads discussing KISS trust be deleted as well?

[arebelspy]

Why did MMM remove the entire thread?  As I recall, he originally redacted just the offending post.   Will future threads discussing KISS trust be deleted as well?

He removed the offending quote in the Long Term Returns thread where Everest Wealth Management was discussed.

The entire Kiss Trust thread was deleted.

[dragoncar]

Why did MMM remove the entire thread?  As I recall, he originally redacted just the offending post.   Will future threads discussing KISS trust be deleted as well?

He removed the offending quote in the Long Term Returns thread where Everest Wealth Management was discussed.

The entire Kiss Trust thread was deleted.

OK... why?  I'm guessing there will eventually be another KISS thread.  Will it be removed immediately, or only if people make similar comments?

[arebelspy]

Why did MMM remove the entire thread?  As I recall, he originally redacted just the offending post.   Will future threads discussing KISS trust be deleted as well?

He removed the offending quote in the Long Term Returns thread where Everest Wealth Management was discussed.

The entire Kiss Trust thread was deleted.

OK... why?  I'm guessing there will eventually be another KISS thread.  Will it be removed immediately, or only if people make similar comments?

I think MMM removed it while figuring out his legal options and discussing with lawyers. It was removed pre-main blog post.

I can't speak to future actions, by I'd assume more lawsuit information may be forthcoming at some point as they progress.

[dragoncar]

Why did MMM remove the entire thread?  As I recall, he originally redacted just the offending post.   Will future threads discussing KISS trust be deleted as well?

He removed the offending quote in the Long Term Returns thread where Everest Wealth Management was discussed.

The entire Kiss Trust thread was deleted.

OK... why?  I'm guessing there will eventually be another KISS thread.  Will it be removed immediately, or only if people make similar comments?

I think MMM removed it while figuring out his legal options and discussing with lawyers. It was removed pre-main blog post.

I can't speak to future actions, by I'd assume more lawsuit information may be forthcoming at some point as they progress.

Ok, thanks... I know you can't speak for MMM, but I was a little confused about assertions that the threats haven't worked.

Also you forgot to /shrug this time! 

[arebelspy]

Also you forgot to /shrug this time! 

Did I?

/shrug

;)

[Fireman]

The legal over-response to a simple opinion on a blog forum is indicative of having something to hide, it seems to me.

I don't know. I'm inclined to be mildly sympathetic. If you were looking to use a boutique financial service company, and the third link on Google loudly proclaimed that it was a "scam", how would you feel about using that company, even knowing that it's just the opinion of a random forum user? How would you feel if a top Google link groundlessly claimed that your company was a "scam"?

Where they went wrong is not trying to resolve the issue amicably like human beings. It's amazing what a friendly appeal for understanding and sympathy can accomplish. There were probably five different ways to skin this particular cat without resorting to the legal system.

Except, when this all started, the link was in no man's land on the third page of Google.  It wasn't until after the Streisand Effect kicked in that Google's page ranking moved this, and other negative information about KissTrust, to the first page.

[Khan]

Props to MMM for fighting, I hate bully tactics.

Also, Sol, your post is on techdirt lol.

[sol]

Also, Sol, your post is on techdirt lol.

Yea, of the many tens of thousands of words I have contributed to the internet over the years, that one line of text has reached more eyeballs than anything else.  Sad.

[dragoncar]

Also, Sol, your post is on techdirt lol.

Yea, of the many tens of thousands of words I have contributed to the internet over the years, that one line of text has reached more eyeballs than anything else.  Sad.

Did that many people read it?  The article only has 26 comments and 19 likes.

[Fireman]

Also, Sol, your post is on techdirt lol.

Yea, of the many tens of thousands of words I have contributed to the internet over the years, that one line of text has reached more eyeballs than anything else.  Sad.

Did that many people read it?  The article only has 26 comments and 19 likes.

I did.

[sol]

Did that many people read it?

It's not really a very high bar.

[Spork]

Did that many people read it?

It's not really a very high bar.

so, would it be safe to say your assertion that more eyeballs had seen it was a bit of a scam?   ;)

[cowstash]

Hmm, it seems that the administrators of Wikipedia have taken down the sham article about this company (mostly because they wrote the whole thing in such a glowingly obvious way): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Trust

[Pixelshot]

In my opinion, Kiss Trust should hire a proofreader:

"Contrary to the contents of the post, Kiss Trust in not a 'SCAM'." (their words from Letter 1, bold added) Very professional.

I'm just sayin.

Oh, and don't you mean DMCA (as in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act), not DCMA?  --  unless of course you mean to suggest that your argument is supported by the Defense Contract Management Agency, or a perfectly respectable clothing company, which certainly has no affiliation with such hackery.

Once again, this is my opinion. By the way, the fact that I have to even say "in my opinion" is disgusting evidence that this lameness should never happen.

[doc_quincy]

Google search results are often "personalized" such that they automatically rank pages higher that they think might be more relevant to you. So if Google knows you regularly visit the MMM forum, they are more likely to rank a search hit on the MMM forum higher for you than for someone who doesn't regularly visit MMM. One way to get a truly generic Google search results page is to use "incognito" or "private" mode in your browser when performing the search.

When I searched for "kiss trust" just now, this thread was #4 while I was logged in to Google, and #5 when I was in incognito mode. A similar Bogleheads thread was #5 while logged in, and #9 while in incognito mode.

I'm a single mom with a 4 month old daughter considering alternative ways to save up for my daughter's university education. I originally signed up for a Kiss Trust account when my daughter wasn't born yet but she didn't have a Social Security number then so the registration didn't go through. I have never heard of Mr. Money Mustache before and searched Kiss Trust with Google in regular mode today and this thread came up as #4.

[jordanread]

I'm a single mom with a 4 month old daughter considering alternative ways to save up for my daughter's university education. I originally signed up for a Kiss Trust account when my daughter wasn't born yet but she didn't have a Social Security number then so the registration didn't go through. I have never heard of Mr. Money Mustache before and searched Kiss Trust with Google in regular mode today and this thread came up as #4.

That is the most inspiring story about KISS trust I've heard so far. Welcome!

[arebelspy]

Google search results are often "personalized" such that they automatically rank pages higher that they think might be more relevant to you. So if Google knows you regularly visit the MMM forum, they are more likely to rank a search hit on the MMM forum higher for you than for someone who doesn't regularly visit MMM. One way to get a truly generic Google search results page is to use "incognito" or "private" mode in your browser when performing the search.

When I searched for "kiss trust" just now, this thread was #4 while I was logged in to Google, and #5 when I was in incognito mode. A similar Bogleheads thread was #5 while logged in, and #9 while in incognito mode.

I'm a single mom with a 4 month old daughter considering alternative ways to save up for my daughter's university education. I originally signed up for a Kiss Trust account when my daughter wasn't born yet but she didn't have a Social Security number then so the registration didn't go through. I have never heard of Mr. Money Mustache before and searched Kiss Trust with Google in regular mode today and this thread came up as #4.

Check out the main site/blog - a lot of unconventional thinking there, but it can be pretty amazing if you read it and it changes how you approach finances.

Having your financial house in order is one of the best things you can do for your kids.

Congratulations and welcome!

[doc_quincy]

That's interesting, because on July 20th, 2013 a user calling himself "BartWilson" signed up for this forum, and for his first two posts, wrote promotional-sounding things about KISS trust.

The posts were noticed and flagged by Sol on September 13th, and the account was deleted. We still have the online records with timestamps of everything in the moderator section of this forum, which is why I was able to look it up just now.

It could easily be just a coincidence, but who knows - in a company that manages its online reputation so actively, it is entirely possible that they have fake people out there adding promotional content.

This happens VERY regularly on this forum - almost every day, the moderators have to flag and delete fake corporate people pretending to be real people who are recommending products and services via thinly-veiled advertisements.

There is a BartMan who I think is the same person posting promotional information about Kiss Trust on 11 December 2013 on bogleheads. He joined on the same day as that only single post credited under him:

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=127905&p=1878371&hilit=kiss+trust#p1881699

Out of curiosity, has anybody actually invested in Kiss Trust for their kids here? What are your opinions about Trust Egg? I am not financially savvy as everybody here and I reckon it's never too late to learn after all those exhausting days in the clinic and sleepless nights of working in the hospital. I was almost happy when I heard about Kiss Trust - put in money and make them do the work like KISS as in Keep it Simple Sexy. Guess that was too good to be true.

Thanks for the welcome guys! My financial education starts now. :)

[dragoncar]

Google search results are often "personalized" such that they automatically rank pages higher that they think might be more relevant to you. So if Google knows you regularly visit the MMM forum, they are more likely to rank a search hit on the MMM forum higher for you than for someone who doesn't regularly visit MMM. One way to get a truly generic Google search results page is to use "incognito" or "private" mode in your browser when performing the search.

When I searched for "kiss trust" just now, this thread was #4 while I was logged in to Google, and #5 when I was in incognito mode. A similar Bogleheads thread was #5 while logged in, and #9 while in incognito mode.

I'm a single mom with a 4 month old daughter considering alternative ways to save up for my daughter's university education. I originally signed up for a Kiss Trust account when my daughter wasn't born yet but she didn't have a Social Security number then so the registration didn't go through. I have never heard of Mr. Money Mustache before and searched Kiss Trust with Google in regular mode today and this thread came up as #4.

Check out the main site/blog - a lot of unconventional thinking there, but it can be pretty amazing if you read it and it changes how you approach finances.

Having your financial house in order is one of the best things you can do for your kids.

Congratulations and welcome!

Congratulations?  I didn't get any congratulations when I signed up.  I demand congratulations!

[doc_quincy]

Check out the main site/blog - a lot of unconventional thinking there, but it can be pretty amazing if you read it and it changes how you approach finances.

Having your financial house in order is one of the best things you can do for your kids.

Congratulations and welcome!

Congratulations?  I didn't get any congratulations when I signed up.  I demand congratulations!

Belated congratulations for joining @dragoncar! ;)

[arebelspy]

Congratulations?  I didn't get any congratulations when I signed up.  I demand congratulations!

What an egregious oversight!

Congratulations dragoncar!

[Paul der Krake]

I am not financially savvy as everybody here and I reckon it's never too late to learn after all those exhausting days in the clinic and sleepless nights of working in the hospital. I was almost happy when I heard about Kiss Trust - put in money and make them do the work like KISS as in Keep it Simple Sexy.

I know that's not what you meant at all, but this got me thinking- I'm going to start my own KISS trust-esque company.

It will work the same, but I will have reps roaming hospitals' maternity wards looking for ecstatic parents to sign them up! With the rush of emotions and promises to each other of being great parents, what better time to enroll them in dubious financial schemes?

[dragoncar]

I am not financially savvy as everybody here and I reckon it's never too late to learn after all those exhausting days in the clinic and sleepless nights of working in the hospital. I was almost happy when I heard about Kiss Trust - put in money and make them do the work like KISS as in Keep it Simple Sexy.

I know that's not what you meant at all, but this got me thinking- I'm going to start my own KISS trust-esque company.

It will work the same, but I will have reps roaming hospitals' maternity wards looking for ecstatic parents to sign them up! With the rush of emotions and promises to each other of being great parents, what better time to enroll them in dubious financial schemes?

Sell them Gerber Baby Life Insurance too, while you're at it.  Did you know that baby funerals cost up to $100,000?????

[doc_quincy]

I know that's not what you meant at all, but this got me thinking- I'm going to start my own KISS trust-esque company.

It will work the same, but I will have reps roaming hospitals' maternity wards looking for ecstatic parents to sign them up! With the rush of emotions and promises to each other of being great parents, what better time to enroll them in dubious financial schemes?

You know that actually makes so much sense especially IF that were a legitimate financial scheme. I would have signed up in a second. Lol. In Chicago where I delivered, a photographer would go around the hospital and take photos of your baby on the day she was born for 15 minutes for FREE with the option of getting the digital copies and prints for $300-800. Not a bad gig!

Baby funerals at $100K. You must be kidding! Is the casket designed by Chanel? But seriously, it sounds like no one here actually signed up for any of those trusts? Can a newbie start a thread?

[Bank]

Doc - I think you're right about the lack of KISS Trusts in these here parts.  Most of us tend to go for simple, low fee investment and planning solutions.  If we want to fund post-secondary education, we open a 529 account.  If we want to ensure our kids are provided for, we buy term life insurance, etc.

There's no doubt there is a place for trusts in certain people's plans (most of us here are objecting to KISS being a deceptive and nasty company, not all trusts).  For example, with large estates.  With the right trust you can skip a generation's worth of inheritance taxes.  So go ahead - fire up a thread, buy a bike, and dive right in to the community.

[cassandratoday]

Besides their use of threats as part of their brand management strategy, why is Kiss Trust a worse way of starting a trust than the alternatives? (Not asking whether trusts are a good idea or not; rather, if a trust, why not Kiss?)

And assuming a reasoned argument against Kiss, what are the alternatives? (besides the obvious, retain a trust attorney)

If this information is in these three pages, apologies for missing it. It's hard to find anything other than "Kiss Trust bad", though I do recognize that the original topic here certainly illustrates one bad thing about Kiss Trust's marketing plan.

Also, links are fine. I don't expect people to necessarily take their time to write explanations for me when I can read them on the web.

Thanks.

[Heroes821]

Besides their use of threats as part of their brand management strategy, why is Kiss Trust a worse way of starting a trust than the alternatives? (Not asking whether trusts are a good idea or not; rather, if a trust, why not Kiss?)

And assuming a reasoned argument against Kiss, what are the alternatives? (besides the obvious, retain a trust attorney)

If this information is in these three pages, apologies for missing it. It's hard to find anything other than "Kiss Trust bad", though I do recognize that the original topic here certainly illustrates one bad thing about Kiss Trust's marketing plan.

Also, links are fine. I don't expect people to necessarily take their time to write explanations for me when I can read them on the web.

Thanks.

Regardless of any links that people might add to answer your question, this thread is from 2014 april. I'm confident that many things have changed in three years.