Author Topic: Is Tesla a good investment?  (Read 378038 times)

jnw

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2000 on: May 21, 2023, 03:37:59 AM »
No, I am not going to ignore Elon, he's the CEO Tesla, the topic of this thread, and has caused a lot of problems for Tesla with his divisiveness, which affect shareholders, which is why I don't think it's a good investment.  (I'll NEVER ignore Elon, I have an eye on him always, he's the richest guy on planet and the most divisive CEO I've ever seen in my life.)

I am done with this though.  I've always treated everyone with respect here.  I'm allowed to converse with people here; it's not my problem if you think I'm too assertive.

In a past thread you mentioned; I did exactly that: STOPPED. I stopped because the guy got all upset at me out of no where --shocked me really-- and said he wanted the last word and I said, "alrighty" and I let him have it.  And I was so polite in this thread a couple posts ago, apologizing for upsetting people and said I was done.

So yeah I'll say it again: I respect you all and I'm done here. Peace.


« Last Edit: May 21, 2023, 04:36:43 AM by jnw »

Valley of Plenty

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2001 on: May 21, 2023, 04:45:10 AM »
No, I am not going to ignore Elon, he's the CEO Tesla, the topic of this thread, and has caused a lot of problems for Tesla with his divisiveness, which affect shareholders, which is why I don't think it's a good investment.  (I'll NEVER ignore Elon, I have an eye on him always, he's the richest guy on planet and the most divisive CEO I've ever seen in my life.)

I am done with this though.  I've always treated everyone with respect here.  I'm allowed to converse with people here; it's not my problem if you think I'm too assertive.

In a past thread you mentioned; I did exactly that: STOPPED. I stopped because the guy got all upset at me out of no where --shocked me really-- and said he wanted the last word and I said, "alrighty" and I let him have it.  And I was so polite in this thread a couple posts ago, apologizing for upsetting people and said I was done.

So yeah I'll say it again: I respect you all and I'm done here. Peace.

I was just trying to advise you on how you could perhaps reduce your time spent being stressed online. Your "assertiveness" does not bother me at all, and if it did I would simply not engage in discussions with you.

If you'd like I can give you a list of every rich and powerful loud person that I know of with problematic takes, if you really think your time and energy is best served by keeping tabs on rich people with questionable ethics. There's certainly enough of them to keep you busy 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2023, 04:47:28 AM by Valley of Plenty »

jnw

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2002 on: May 21, 2023, 04:49:38 AM »
I was just trying to advise you on how you could perhaps reduce your time spent being stressed online.
Well I don't need any psychological advice; but if you were being sincere then I respect that you were trying to be kind to me.  I come here to chat about financially related things. [Saying, "I'm done here", means I am done here related to the topic of this thread -- which doesn't preclude me from replying to comments or questions about my character or mental state -- although I rather not talk about this since it is off topic.]

If you'd like I can give you a list of every rich and powerful person that I know of with problematic takes, if you really think your time and energy is best served by keeping tabs on rich people with questionable ethics. There's certainly enough of them to keep you busy 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
I respect your last words and viewpoint -- my lips are zipped. 🤐🤗


« Last Edit: May 21, 2023, 05:41:17 AM by jnw »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2003 on: May 21, 2023, 07:50:44 AM »
Okay well let's just agree to disagree okay? I don't want to continue going on about this. It's giving me anxiety. I've said what I felt I needed to say answering the OPs question.
You lied about what I said, and when I demanded you quote me, you became evasive.  You refused to quote me - because I never said what you claimed.  You put words in my mouth, lying about what I said, and you refuse to correct that mistake.  If you stand by your original comment, quote where I said this:

And I'm saddened that I upset you but: You made a statement that he didn't invest in politics, and I explained that you were overlooking the $44B he spent on twitter.
Don't lie about what I said.  Quote where I said what you claimed.
For the third time, where did I say this?  If you can't produce evidence I said something, that's because you're wrong.  It's not agreeing to disagree - you said something false, trying to put words in my mouth.  That is wrong, and you are wrong.  Now will you admit you're wrong, or will you provide evidence of what I said?

jnw

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2004 on: May 21, 2023, 07:57:15 AM »
Why are you repeating yourself over and over? I've clearly explained everything. I didn't lie about anything, I explained I misunderstood you. Go back a couple posts and read.

This is what I wrote. I explained I misunderstood you.  It's back like 4 posts:

BTW: You misunderstand what I meant when I said "sorry for the misunderstanding". I said that b/c I didn't understand why you blew up on me claiming I was dramatic, so I presumed you were upset about my response of Elon buying twitter.  You expressed that you weren't upset by it so I apologized for misunderstanding. (But in reality you do seem upset about from what you wrote about it in your last post.)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2023, 08:16:12 AM by jnw »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2005 on: May 21, 2023, 08:56:45 AM »
You made a statement that he didn't invest in politics
You really don't understand what this sentence means?  You claim I "made a statement", and the lie comes next: "he didn't invest in politics".  Those are the words you have ignored over and over, pretending it is something else.  Claiming I said "You made a statement that he didn't invest in politics" is a lie, not a misunderstanding or something else.


I've clearly explained everything. I didn't lie about anything, I explained I misunderstood you.
I don't need your explanation, because I have your exact words: "he didn't invest in politics", which you cannot explain away.  I did not misunderstand "You made a statement that he didn't invest in politics", which is what you claim.  You are wrong and unable to admit it.


...
And I was so polite in this thread a couple posts ago, apologizing for upsetting people and said I was done.

So yeah I'll say it again: I respect you all and I'm done here. Peace.
In case it escapes you, you said you were done, twice, and then continued.  Being wrong about your own behavior while being unable to admit you're wrong is a odd combination.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2023, 08:59:25 AM by MustacheAndaHalf »

jnw

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2006 on: May 21, 2023, 09:52:30 AM »
Elon is not an elected official or policy maker. He doesn’t spend large sums trying to influence elections like the Koch brothers or George Soros.

I just scrolled back and re-read the conversation thread. Sorry I apologize, I thought you said it but it was ColoradoTribe instead. I got you two mixed up.  So I thought that was the reason you were upset at me.  But it was a different person.  I was replying to him and you replied right after, and I got confused and thought you were him I guess.

But I see why you were upset and frustrated at me. Because I had you confused with someone else.  I'm really sorry for my confusion & the mix up.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2023, 10:19:28 AM by jnw »

AdrianC

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2007 on: May 22, 2023, 07:11:55 AM »
Well, that was fun…back to Tesla. I see we can buy a $35k Model 3 again, so that’s very cool.

https://electrek.co/2023/05/19/tesla-discounts-inventory-cars/

My local Tesla shop has inventory. Test drove one and liked it a lot. The RWD entry level model has more performance than I need.
Nice car. Still expensive compared to our Bolt ($24k in 2021, $21k now with tax incentives). Not any more useful than the Bolt to us.
Be a lot more attractive as a hatchback.

Maybe someone knows: can you get a road bike in the trunk of a Model 3 fairly easily? With the Bolt I get my 50cm road bike in without taking a wheel out.

Also drove a Y LR. Definitely more than we need. A rear-wheel drive Y with 250 mile range would be ideal. Maybe that's what this is:

https://electrek.co/2023/05/16/tesla-teases-next-car-new-image/

Tesla has teased its next electric car with a new image of the silhouette, and Elon Musk says it is already being built.

$40k with $7500 tax credit would be very attractive.

Then I'd just have to get past the Elon ick factor, which is very, very strong right now. I really do not want people to think I support the opinions of that man.

On topic, Elon has said the Telsa investment thesis hangs on self-driving. Makes sense to me.

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2008 on: May 26, 2023, 10:39:59 AM »
interesting development!

Quote
Tesla has agreed to let owners of Ford Motor electric vehicles use Tesla's extensive network of superchargers in the U.S. beginning in 2024. Investors love the idea. There are good reasons for that.

The charging collaboration was announced by Ford (ticker: F) CEO Jim Farley and Tesla (TSLA) CEO Elon Musk Thursday evening on Twitter Spaces. The pair talked about the deal and EVs for about 30 minutes and took a few questions too.

Ford drivers using Tesla chargers "will not be cost-prohibitive," said Musk at one point, adding that only an adapter is needed for Ford to plug into Tesla charging stalls. Farley said he was open to other areas collaboration between the two firms, including EV-related software.

Wall street seemed to very much like this news.....

TomTX

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2009 on: May 26, 2023, 11:54:26 AM »
Having North America consolidate to using the Tesla/NACS charging connector is a big win for consumers. The CCS networks are a haphazard, unreliable mess.

EchoStache

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2010 on: May 26, 2023, 12:08:21 PM »
Tesla Model Y was the number one selling vehicle in the world Q1 2023.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2011 on: May 26, 2023, 01:44:14 PM »
https://jalopnik.com/whistleblower-drops-100-gigabytes-of-tesla-secrets-to-g-1850476542

The safety concerns listed here seem kind of expected to me, but the cultural approach to the problem seems concerning to me.

https://jalopnik.com/emails-show-elon-musk-was-directly-involved-in-staged-s-1850011842


mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2012 on: May 26, 2023, 01:55:06 PM »
Tesla Model Y was the number one selling vehicle in the world Q1 2023.

wow! did not know that!  {eta.....maybe i did know??? seems familar....but could be confused with hearing it was the most sold model for a particular country.....}

Something has really shifted, I see teslas on the road all the time now. I used to count them as a game, but its become too average an occurrence. On the highway a week or two ago, 3 lanes going north it was me and two other teslas abreast, one would have thought we coordinated it!
« Last Edit: May 26, 2023, 04:47:07 PM by mistymoney »

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2013 on: May 26, 2023, 03:05:44 PM »
When/where Tesla opened up it’s charging network to other EV owners (individuals) Tesla charged subscriptions fees and/or charged premiums for the electricity.

Assuming this applies to Ford’s EV customers and you start to get a sense of how Tesla will be monetizing the supercharger network going further. Ford just gained a competitive advantage over its ICE legacy competitors.  Ford’s partnership will only accelerate Tesla’s investment in the supercharger network. Buy in or build your own fast charging network. Not much of a choice.

waltworks

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2014 on: May 26, 2023, 03:34:52 PM »
3 or 4 years ago my older 2 kids thought it was really fun to look for Teslas and have a daily/weekly/etc competition to see who spotted the most (they were 6 and 4 at the time).

Now you could not possibly do that and keep count, I see half a dozen one the 1 commute to school on a typical morning.

Rivians are getting to common to be fun too...

-Walt

Valley of Plenty

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2015 on: May 29, 2023, 06:52:14 PM »
Tesla Model Y was the number one selling vehicle in the world Q1 2023.

wow! did not know that!  {eta.....maybe i did know??? seems familar....but could be confused with hearing it was the most sold model for a particular country.....}

Something has really shifted, I see teslas on the road all the time now. I used to count them as a game, but its become too average an occurrence. On the highway a week or two ago, 3 lanes going north it was me and two other teslas abreast, one would have thought we coordinated it!

They are still a pretty rare sight in my neighborhood, but that's to be expected given how rural of an area I live in. There is only one Tesla charging station within 20 miles of my house.

I would guess in my town there are 20-30 diesel pickup trucks for every 1 EV of any kind

Scandium

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2016 on: May 30, 2023, 08:43:33 AM »
Every CEO (and person) is entitled to their own opinion, and frankly I don't care what CEO's think of privately.  But to make very public deeply polarizing statements, one after another, continually, is beyond stupid. I have never seen a CEO of a large company do this.  It will affect the sales so that's why I think TSLA isn't a good investment.  Look at what AB did recently, and they flip flopped and now NO ONE wants to buy their beer; recently saw a promo code on Doctor of Credit that AB was offering free Bud Light.  Leave politics out of business. It only hurts things.  (Warren Buffet said a year or so ago at a meeting, that politics has no place in business; it's his policy to remain neutral.)

You may think what Elon says deserves only a slap on the wrist, but I don't think you see it from the perspective of the other half of the country; what he says may not be that bad to you but extremely hurtful to many others.  He says unforgivable things continually.  He's a very divisive loose cannon.  No thanks.

A smart business owner would want to maximize the profits for himself and the rest of the shareholders.  He (or she) would find ways he could appeal to everyone, maximizing sales.  Not say things which drive away half of the customer base.  It doesn't matter if you are republican, democrat or independent, everyone deserves respect. But a CEO calling half of the people in this country names and suggesting they be imprisoned isn't respectful at all, and frankly stupid.

Sorry, but this is BS. As is often noted in these types of discussions, sticking to the "status quo" is by default promoting the conservative position, since that is in favor of existing power structures. There's no viable way of avoiding politics. When conservative/reactionaries become psychotic when a company even acknowledge the existence of a group, they can't "avoid politics". Either AB will (continue) to not mention that group, which implicitly promote the right's genocidal position towards these marginalized groups. Or AB will include LGBTQ people in their ads (or otherwise acknowledge their existence) which the right calls "become involved in politics". Just as easily one could say AB can't have ads with black people, since that will offend the white nationalist/klan types. If all beer ads only feature white, hetro/cis men are they "avoiding politics"? How do you think anyone not in that group feels about it then? (Will a black woman who drinks bud say: "I'm so glad AB are staying out of politics by only having white men in their ads"??)

The old joke; there are two types of people: white (straight), and "political". What is a non-political beer ad these days? The reactionaries get hysterically mad about gay people on TV, black Disney characters, (too many) white men being the bad guy, etc etc. Hell, some go real old school and complain about interracial relationships! All they have is grievance-obsessed (white) identity politics, there is no way to not engage with this, either through silence or inclusion. Both actions supporting one of the sides. Especially not while as you say "trying to appeal to the widest possible market".
« Last Edit: May 30, 2023, 08:45:38 AM by Scandium »

shinn497

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2017 on: May 30, 2023, 11:17:43 AM »
Elon is not an elected official or policy maker. He doesn’t spend large sums trying to influence elections like the Koch brothers or George Soros.

I just scrolled back and re-read the conversation thread. Sorry I apologize, I thought you said it but it was ColoradoTribe instead. I got you two mixed up.  So I thought that was the reason you were upset at me.  But it was a different person.  I was replying to him and you replied right after, and I got confused and thought you were him I guess.

But I see why you were upset and frustrated at me. Because I had you confused with someone else.  I'm really sorry for my confusion & the mix up.

George Soros!

shinn497

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2018 on: May 30, 2023, 11:21:44 AM »
So yeah. Has anyone been following youtubers like Farzad Mesbahi ? They have made me very excited for the future of Tesla. I think if Tesla can crack the 25k mark, it will be done for all legacy auto. We will still see some high end manfucturers. And some that have invested in EVsm =, like Kia and Chevy/Ford might remain. But I think it will be a blood bath. I know Toyota and Honda are popular now, but they have really dropped the ball on EVs, and might get slaughtered.

I also think that the future value of Optimus, Full Self Driving, and AI is going to be unreal.

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2019 on: May 30, 2023, 12:28:00 PM »
So yeah. Has anyone been following youtubers like Farzad Mesbahi ? They have made me very excited for the future of Tesla. I think if Tesla can crack the 25k mark, it will be done for all legacy auto. We will still see some high end manfucturers. And some that have invested in EVsm =, like Kia and Chevy/Ford might remain. But I think it will be a blood bath. I know Toyota and Honda are popular now, but they have really dropped the ball on EVs, and might get slaughtered.

I also think that the future value of Optimus, Full Self Driving, and AI is going to be unreal.

been trying to follow the AI news and see what companies will be key players and which among those are investable. Tesla is rarely if ever mentioned.

What was your take on the Tesla side of AI? In terms of capturing AI upside?

shinn497

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2020 on: May 30, 2023, 12:51:25 PM »
I think the market will not price in Tesla as an AI play until Full Self Driving is viable, which, honestly, it is not right now.

The issue is that FSD is a long tail problem. It is trivially easy to get ~80% of situations. Decently hard to get 99.9% of solutions, but those .1% are all really hard edge cases. I suggest paying attention to youtube channels like dirty tesla to get a sense of where the tech is. It is certainly improving, but the jury is out on if it will be true true self driving.

I think if there is hope for FSD being something monetizable, it will first be geofenced. There already are AI cars being used in Vegas and SF. So it does seem possible for Tesla to allow just those locations to be used for robotaxis.

One thing I think people aren't talking about is tesla's investment into Dojo. I do question, if that is a good idea, since nVidia is making some intense strides into development hardware. This decoupling from nVidia could be why Tesla is not currently tracking, as they are redoing the research and product dev nVidia is currently doing.

I've been following Gary Black, and he puts TSLA at a 320 price target in 6-12 months. I Think that is reasonable. That is dependant on the effect of advertisement, the cybertruck launch, Twitter positive cash flow, and the roll out of the compact model. If we can get a compact model, with decamillion deliveries, I would personally value that at like 500$/share. I think that happens within 4 years.

If we get true FSD, that is monetizable, then you are looking at 4 digit share price numbers. And more if it gets implemented into optimus. But, of course, that is very speculative.

AdrianC

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2021 on: May 31, 2023, 05:44:59 AM »
Interesting article about current and upcoming Tesla production lines:

https://www.assemblymag.com/articles/97788-tesla-rethinks-the-assembly-line

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2022 on: May 31, 2023, 07:29:37 AM »
Isn't it interesting how the Tesla narrative is shifting from cars to A.I. at exactly the same time the financial media is cranking out pieces about AI and when potential AI chip maker NVDA is up 174% YTD to a PE ratio of 200.

waltworks

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2023 on: May 31, 2023, 11:59:45 AM »
So yeah. Has anyone been following youtubers like Farzad Mesbahi ? They have made me very excited for the future of Tesla. I think if Tesla can crack the 25k mark, it will be done for all legacy auto. We will still see some high end manfucturers. And some that have invested in EVsm =, like Kia and Chevy/Ford might remain. But I think it will be a blood bath. I know Toyota and Honda are popular now, but they have really dropped the ball on EVs, and might get slaughtered.

I also think that the future value of Optimus, Full Self Driving, and AI is going to be unreal.

For regulatory/nationalist reasons, there is zero chance that Tesla will end up driving Ford/Toyota/etc out of business.

Hell, we didn't let GM go out of business just 15 years ago, and they were just doing a bad job making cars/had too much debt.

-W

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2024 on: May 31, 2023, 03:50:40 PM »
Isn't it interesting how the Tesla narrative is shifting from cars to A.I. at exactly the same time the financial media is cranking out pieces about AI and when potential AI chip maker NVDA is up 174% YTD to a PE ratio of 200.

It is interesting that the world is finally waking up to the fact that Tesla is more than just a car company, like those in the know have been saying for years. Ford has woken up to realize Tesla's lead in charging tech and infrastructure is insurmountable.

Tesla will continue to execute on its plans and make steady progress regardless of how the media chooses to cover the company. For those just realizing the Tesla is also an AI company, welcome to the present state of realty.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2023, 11:45:19 PM by ColoradoTribe »

TomTX

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2025 on: May 31, 2023, 06:16:19 PM »
Isn't it interesting
I find it quite interesting that you abandoned the thread when your last sniping was taken apart and have decided to just try some other tactic.

Curious.

TomTX

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2026 on: May 31, 2023, 06:19:13 PM »
Interesting article about current and upcoming Tesla production lines:

https://www.assemblymag.com/articles/97788-tesla-rethinks-the-assembly-line
Being willing to kick over the status quo is one of Tesla's great strengths and great weaknesses. Gigacastings are a big win. The original attempt to highly automate Fremont was a failure. Etc.

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2027 on: June 01, 2023, 08:16:41 AM »
Isn't it interesting how the Tesla narrative is shifting from cars to A.I. at exactly the same time the financial media is cranking out pieces about AI and when potential AI chip maker NVDA is up 174% YTD to a PE ratio of 200.

It is interesting that the world is finally waking up to the fact that Tesla is more than just a car company, like those in the know have been saying for years. Ford has woken up to realize Tesla's lead in charging tech and infrastructure is insurmountable.

Tesla will continue to execute on its plans and make steady progress regardless of how the media chooses to cover the company. For those just realizing the Tesla is also an AI company, welcome to the present state of realty.

I find the fact that tesla is likely to have at least a little profit off of most EV sales across the globe via the charging network really exciting!

Interesting to watch how this plays out over the next few years, particularly in other countries as the us is lagging a bit in adoption of EVs so I reckon it'll pick up elsewhere first.

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2028 on: June 01, 2023, 09:09:41 AM »
So yeah. Has anyone been following youtubers like Farzad Mesbahi ? They have made me very excited for the future of Tesla. I think if Tesla can crack the 25k mark, it will be done for all legacy auto. We will still see some high end manfucturers. And some that have invested in EVsm =, like Kia and Chevy/Ford might remain. But I think it will be a blood bath. I know Toyota and Honda are popular now, but they have really dropped the ball on EVs, and might get slaughtered.

I also think that the future value of Optimus, Full Self Driving, and AI is going to be unreal.

For regulatory/nationalist reasons, there is zero chance that Tesla will end up driving Ford/Toyota/etc out of business.

Hell, we didn't let GM go out of business just 15 years ago, and they were just doing a bad job making cars/had too much debt.

-W

I think it depends on how it goes. It looks like ford is finding ways to move forward with EVs and with tesla, and there is good will between the companies. Seems they are carving out a good position for themselves.

With the others - I think how the government response to a huge crisis vs a slow dwindle of business might be a difference. UAW is also a huge force to reckon with in the US, and tesla refusing unions might be an issue with US politics. But still all very hazy I think.

waltworks

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2029 on: June 01, 2023, 09:36:43 AM »
Big legacy auto companies are politically untouchable - especially in Asia. There is zero chance that the US/EU/China/India allows Tesla to become a monopoly or near monopoly, so there is a hard ceiling on market share (we're not there yet, of course).

Tesla can license tech, collaborate, and pursue other stuff that is only tangentially about cars (ie solar). But they cannot and will not drive legacy manufacturers out of business.

Note that I'm not saying this is a good thing, but it's the political reality.

-W

bacchi

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2030 on: June 01, 2023, 09:40:29 AM »
Isn't it interesting how the Tesla narrative is shifting from cars to A.I. at exactly the same time the financial media is cranking out pieces about AI and when potential AI chip maker NVDA is up 174% YTD to a PE ratio of 200.

It is interesting that the world is finally waking up to the fact that Tesla is more than just a car company, like those in the know have been saying for years. Ford has woken up to realize Tesla's lead in charging tech and infrastructure is insurmountable.

Tesla will continue to execute on its plans and make steady progress regardless of how the media chooses to cover the company. For those just realizing the Tesla is also an AI company, welcome to the present state of realty.

I find the fact that tesla is likely to have at least a little profit off of most EV sales across the globe via the charging network really exciting!

Interesting to watch how this plays out over the next few years, particularly in other countries as the us is lagging a bit in adoption of EVs so I reckon it'll pick up elsewhere first.

There's also an exclusivity that Tesla is losing. With a significant majority of the chargers in the US, especially along highways, Tesla had an inherent advantage when buyers were choosing a car (for travel, mostly, as commuters could charge at home). Someone considering an EV, who travels frequently, has one less concern about buying a Ford.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/tesla-will-open-its-supercharger-network-to-other-evs-in-canada/ar-AA1bQqzl

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2031 on: June 01, 2023, 12:52:57 PM »
Isn't it interesting how the Tesla narrative is shifting from cars to A.I. at exactly the same time the financial media is cranking out pieces about AI and when potential AI chip maker NVDA is up 174% YTD to a PE ratio of 200.

It is interesting that the world is finally waking up to the fact that Tesla is more than just a car company, like those in the know have been saying for years. Ford has woken up to realize Tesla's lead in charging tech and infrastructure is insurmountable.

Tesla will continue to execute on its plans and make steady progress regardless of how the media chooses to cover the company. For those just realizing the Tesla is also an AI company, welcome to the present state of realty.

I find the fact that tesla is likely to have at least a little profit off of most EV sales across the globe via the charging network really exciting!

Interesting to watch how this plays out over the next few years, particularly in other countries as the us is lagging a bit in adoption of EVs so I reckon it'll pick up elsewhere first.


There's also an exclusivity that Tesla is losing. With a significant majority of the chargers in the US, especially along highways, Tesla had an inherent advantage when buyers were choosing a car (for travel, mostly, as commuters could charge at home). Someone considering an EV, who travels frequently, has one less concern about buying a Ford.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/tesla-will-open-its-supercharger-network-to-other-evs-in-canada/ar-AA1bQqzl

so you see tesla as the new ford+exxonmobile as a bad thing?

I see it as a positive.

bacchi

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2032 on: June 01, 2023, 01:08:18 PM »
Isn't it interesting how the Tesla narrative is shifting from cars to A.I. at exactly the same time the financial media is cranking out pieces about AI and when potential AI chip maker NVDA is up 174% YTD to a PE ratio of 200.

It is interesting that the world is finally waking up to the fact that Tesla is more than just a car company, like those in the know have been saying for years. Ford has woken up to realize Tesla's lead in charging tech and infrastructure is insurmountable.

Tesla will continue to execute on its plans and make steady progress regardless of how the media chooses to cover the company. For those just realizing the Tesla is also an AI company, welcome to the present state of realty.

I find the fact that tesla is likely to have at least a little profit off of most EV sales across the globe via the charging network really exciting!

Interesting to watch how this plays out over the next few years, particularly in other countries as the us is lagging a bit in adoption of EVs so I reckon it'll pick up elsewhere first.


There's also an exclusivity that Tesla is losing. With a significant majority of the chargers in the US, especially along highways, Tesla had an inherent advantage when buyers were choosing a car (for travel, mostly, as commuters could charge at home). Someone considering an EV, who travels frequently, has one less concern about buying a Ford.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/tesla-will-open-its-supercharger-network-to-other-evs-in-canada/ar-AA1bQqzl

so you see tesla as the new ford+exxonmobile as a bad thing?

I see it as a positive.

It's a positive for EV consumers, it's a positive for CO2 emissions, and it's a positive for Ford. I'm not entirely certain it's a positive for Tesla. Tesla has a huge numerical advantage over CCS and, by many accounts, Tesla chargers are more reliable. It does provide diversification. Becoming the biggest charging station owner isn't a bad thing.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2033 on: June 02, 2023, 06:55:30 AM »
There's also an exclusivity that Tesla is losing. With a significant majority of the chargers in the US, especially along highways, Tesla had an inherent advantage when buyers were choosing a car (for travel, mostly, as commuters could charge at home). Someone considering an EV, who travels frequently, has one less concern about buying a Ford.
The CNBC interview revealed that even in a competitive EV market like China, Tesla is bottlenecked by production.  Their competition doesn't matter until they can ramp up production further - and if EV adoption keeps growing that may remain a moving target.

In EV trucks, my uninformed opinion is that Ford will beat Tesla.  Suppose that's true, and Tesla is the #1 EV car maker and Ford the #1 EV truck maker.  Both use Tesla's charging network, which will pressure other EV makers to join Tesla's network.  Tesla could wind up with a near monopoly of gas stations - I mean electric chargers.  That gives them the power to set prices, which is valuable (for consumers... not so much).

I suppose a key question is when will Tesla no longer be bottlenecked on production.

waltworks

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2034 on: June 02, 2023, 08:08:33 AM »
Tesla won't end up with a charging monopoly either. If they do, they'll just get regulated like any other utility, or broken up.

-W

TomTX

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2035 on: June 02, 2023, 10:35:27 AM »
It's a positive for EV consumers, it's a positive for CO2 emissions, and it's a positive for Ford. I'm not entirely certain it's a positive for Tesla. Tesla has a huge numerical advantage over CCS and, by many accounts, Tesla chargers are more reliable. It does provide diversification. Becoming the biggest charging station owner isn't a bad thing.
By opening up the SC network, Tesla is eligible for a share of the billions of dollars in EV grants from the Feds.

waltworks

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2036 on: June 02, 2023, 11:05:58 AM »
Having spent a decent amount of time trying to deal with the wild-west of charging standards/stations (if only the Georgetown ChadeMo station didn't cause my Leaf to generate error codes and not charge every time I tried it...) I would love to see the Tesla system/network become the universal standard. IMO we will see that happen at some point - but as I've said, there's a hard limit on how much Tesla can control the system and charge for energy for antitrust reasons.

-W

bacchi

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2037 on: June 02, 2023, 11:21:51 AM »
It's a positive for EV consumers, it's a positive for CO2 emissions, and it's a positive for Ford. I'm not entirely certain it's a positive for Tesla. Tesla has a huge numerical advantage over CCS and, by many accounts, Tesla chargers are more reliable. It does provide diversification. Becoming the biggest charging station owner isn't a bad thing.
By opening up the SC network, Tesla is eligible for a share of the billions of dollars in EV grants from the Feds.

That explains a lot. Thanks.

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2038 on: June 02, 2023, 12:49:50 PM »
Having spent a decent amount of time trying to deal with the wild-west of charging standards/stations (if only the Georgetown ChadeMo station didn't cause my Leaf to generate error codes and not charge every time I tried it...) I would love to see the Tesla system/network become the universal standard. IMO we will see that happen at some point - but as I've said, there's a hard limit on how much Tesla can control the system and charge for energy for antitrust reasons.

-W

I'm just not sure why you keep repeating this, no one is suggesting that tesla will be or should have a monopoly on anything. Cars, chargers, etc.

Once we get to 50%+ EV market, the profitability is there for a whole host of as yet unknown players to take a piece.

waltworks

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2039 on: June 02, 2023, 01:13:30 PM »
I'm saying it because people keep repeatedly claiming the Tesla can drive their competitors out of business and this will drive huge profits. I'm simply pointing out that it's not something that will happen.

Imagine the outcry if you could only buy a Ford, or only fuel up at Standard Oil stations...

-W

maizefolk

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2040 on: June 02, 2023, 02:46:41 PM »
I'm just not sure why you keep repeating this, no one is suggesting that tesla will be or should have a monopoly on anything. Cars, chargers, etc.

Someone is indeed talking about Tesla potentially being at least "near" monopoly (if you have the power to set prices you're arguably past being "near" a  monopoly from a regulatory standpoint). See below:

Tesla could wind up with a near monopoly of gas stations - I mean electric chargers.  That gives them the power to set prices, which is valuable (for consumers... not so much).

Given that, it seems quite reasonable for waltworks to point out this wouldn't be allowed to happen from a political or regulatory standpoint.

I don't think I see a way for this prediction of monopoly pricing power to come true though even in the absence of regulatory intervention. Telsa's charging standard (NACS) is an open one, so if Tesla started charging well above market rates in the future, there would be nothing stopping other operators from opening compatible charging stations and undercutting Tesla's pricing to charge Tesla, Ford, and any other vehicles that adopt the standard.

The Ford deal is good news for Tesla. It's good news for non-Tesla EV drivers (the CCS network is abysmal). It is potentially modestly bad new for current Tesla drivers. But it's not a step towards the level of monopoly that would give Tesla pricing power over EV charging rates.

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2041 on: June 02, 2023, 02:59:25 PM »
I'm just not sure why you keep repeating this, no one is suggesting that tesla will be or should have a monopoly on anything. Cars, chargers, etc.

Someone is indeed talking about Tesla potentially being at least "near" monopoly (if you have the power to set prices you're arguably past being "near" a  monopoly from a regulatory standpoint). See below:

Tesla could wind up with a near monopoly of gas stations - I mean electric chargers.  That gives them the power to set prices, which is valuable (for consumers... not so much).

Given that, it seems quite reasonable for waltworks to point out this wouldn't be allowed to happen from a political or regulatory standpoint.

I don't think I see a way for this prediction of monopoly pricing power to come true though even in the absence of regulatory intervention. Telsa's charging standard (NACS) is an open one, so if Tesla started charging well above market rates in the future, there would be nothing stopping other operators from opening compatible charging stations and undercutting Tesla's pricing to charge Tesla, Ford, and any other vehicles that adopt the standard.

The Ford deal is good news for Tesla. It's good news for non-Tesla EV drivers (the CCS network is abysmal). It is potentially modestly bad new for current Tesla drivers. But it's not a step towards the level of monopoly that would give Tesla pricing power over EV charging rates.

I guess somone did say it, lol!

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2042 on: June 02, 2023, 10:14:27 PM »
Tesla won't end up with a charging monopoly either. If they do, they'll just get regulated like any other utility, or broken up.

-W
Anti-trust is good in theory, but missing in practice.  People use social media more than land line phones, yet Facebook hasn't been broken up in it's ~20 years.  Instead, it was allowed to buy out rival Instagram.  Land lines and cable internet are part of the telecom industry, which has its own problems with local monopolies.
https://www.dailydot.com/debug/broadband-telecom-monopolies-covid-subsidies/


Tesla could wind up with a near monopoly of gas stations - I mean electric chargers.  That gives them the power to set prices, which is valuable (for consumers... not so much).
I don't think I see a way for this prediction of monopoly pricing power to come true though even in the absence of regulatory intervention. Telsa's charging standard (NACS) is an open one, so if Tesla started charging well above market rates in the future, there would be nothing stopping other operators from opening compatible charging stations and undercutting Tesla's pricing to charge Tesla, Ford, and any other vehicles that adopt the standard.

The Ford deal is good news for Tesla. It's good news for non-Tesla EV drivers (the CCS network is abysmal). It is potentially modestly bad new for current Tesla drivers. But it's not a step towards the level of monopoly that would give Tesla pricing power over EV charging rates.
Good point about NACS, which I didn't know earlier.  And it appears Electrify America competes with Tesla Superchargers, both of which support 250kw/hr or more.  There's slower networks for shopping/dining (50kw/hr) or overnight (6.6kw/hr) which I assume charge lower fees.  There's more competition in charging stations than I knew about before poking around.

AdrianC

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2043 on: June 05, 2023, 06:02:20 AM »
More good Tesla news:

US: All Tesla Model 3 Versions Qualify For $7,500 Federal Tax Credit Now
The entry-level version starts effectively at under $35,000
https://insideevs.com/news/670403/all-tesla-model3-7500-federal-tax-credit/

Not updated on fueleconomy.gov yet:
https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax2023.shtml

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2044 on: June 08, 2023, 03:26:32 PM »
Tesla to open charging network to GM next year; GM, Tesla shares rally
Quote
5:17 pm ET June 8, 2023 (MarketWatch)
 Print
By Claudia Assis

'Collaboration is a key part of our strategy,' GM CEO Barra says

Tesla Inc. has opened its fast-charging network to General Motors Co. electric vehicles, the companies said late Thursday, following a similar announcement late last month about Ford Motor Co.'s EVs.

A network of 12,000 Tesla "Superchargers" in North America will be open to GM EV drivers next year, initially requiring an adapter. Beginning in 2025, GM will equip its EVs with the same inlet standard for direct access, GM said.

GM also to gain access to the supercharger network.

Wallstreet like this new today.....tesla up 4.58% at close, up an additional 2.97% in post market trading.

EchoStache

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2045 on: June 08, 2023, 04:36:43 PM »
I'm thinking that with Ford and GM now on board with NACS, their buddies in Washington are going to have to allow the NACS network to receive the government funding currently only going to CCS, which is, at this point, dead in the water.

Will be interesting to see what TSLA does tomorrow.  Not that I'm concerned with day to day fluctuation.....I think Tesla is poised to become the biggest and most profitable company in the world in the next few years.  Almost seems inevitable.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2023, 04:39:40 PM by EchoStache »

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2046 on: June 08, 2023, 05:13:35 PM »
I'm thinking that with Ford and GM now on board with NACS, their buddies in Washington are going to have to allow the NACS network to receive the government funding currently only going to CCS, which is, at this point, dead in the water.

Will be interesting to see what TSLA does tomorrow.  Not that I'm concerned with day to day fluctuation.....I think Tesla is poised to become the biggest and most profitable company in the world in the next few years.  Almost seems inevitable.

up to 5.68% in postmarket trading.

total of over 10.5% increase today. i like seeing it, lol, but the postmarket trading sometimes is ephemeral to invisible during the next regular market hours. Looking forward to tomorrow's coffee, :)

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2047 on: June 09, 2023, 09:34:44 AM »
looks like yesterday's postmarket numbers held.....so far!

TomTX

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2048 on: June 09, 2023, 07:14:46 PM »
I'm thinking that with Ford and GM now on board with NACS, their buddies in Washington are going to have to allow the NACS network to receive the government funding currently only going to CCS, which is, at this point, dead in the water.
Just as an FYI, the NEVI stations can already have NACS and get funded, they just have to be at least 50% CCS. Easy answer is to just hang two cables off each charger - one CCS1, one NACS.

EchoStache

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2049 on: June 10, 2023, 04:21:07 PM »
I'm thinking that with Ford and GM now on board with NACS, their buddies in Washington are going to have to allow the NACS network to receive the government funding currently only going to CCS, which is, at this point, dead in the water.
Just as an FYI, the NEVI stations can already have NACS and get funded, they just have to be at least 50% CCS. Easy answer is to just hang two cables off each charger - one CCS1, one NACS.

I think there may be other requirements such as a touch screen display and credit card readers, which seem to contribute greatly to the poor uptime of chargers with those features.  There have a been a number of times that I could not charge on the CCS network due to card readers not working.  Direct vehicle communication seems to be the more elegant solution:

Step 1:  Grab the charging cable
Step 2: Plug it into your car.

That's all.  Done.

This will be an issue for EV's that aren't setup to communicate directly with the charger such as Tesla and 2025 Ford and GM EV's
« Last Edit: June 10, 2023, 04:24:51 PM by EchoStache »