Is Tesla a good investment?

[mistymoney]

As for Tesla, you couldn't pay me enough drive one.  Their CEO is a piece of grade A magat trash, and I'm not interested in giving him a dime.  Fuck him, you know?  There's a ton of other EVs and competitively priced hybrids out there, and most of them are nicer.  So I'll be putting my money there on my next car a few years from now.

Will you vet the character of CEOs of other car brands before you buy?
Elon gets a lot of media attention, more than he should, and it seems to influence people more than it should.  From looking at his antics, he seems like he's immature. But is he any worse than the CEO of Ford or Hyundai? Or Proctor & Gamble, Unilever, Tyson Foods, and countless other companies you give your dollars to every day?

Pretty sure he is worse, because if other CEOs were acting the same way, we'd hear about it.  Most other corporations have a better governance structure than Tesla, and he would've been out long ago.  So, no, I'm not giving a dime to him, either through purchasing one of his products, or through adding to the value of his company via investing in it.  Tesla is never going to see $400 again.  And they are never selling 20M cars a year.  Like I said, my next vehicle will likely be electric, but it will *not* be a Tesla.

It's not how he's acting - it's was is spewing out of his mouth. He thinks he is a celebrity while most CEOs don't court the limelight. Some might actively court the shadows instead. maybe he is a celebrity of a sort - seems to have a lot of fanboys?

As I posted before, the board is important here, and shareholders are on them about making sure the board does not become an elon puppet show. It is a concern. But Tesla as a company is important imo, and their mission and accomplishments, and the other sectors they are operating in. Some other company putting out elecgtric vehicles is not in that realm. Tesla make the EV market profitable, single handedly, and I will never buy into an ICE company again even for an EV. Just. Won't. They could have turned things around a decade ago but they chose not to, and to continue to contriubte to the problems, and neither the ICE nor the other 100% EV manufacturers would be where they are today without Telsa breaking the headwinds.

But I wouldn't mind if musk was ejected. He really is over committed anyway, so I don't see how the 10% of his active management time that he can spare to tesla can be all that valuable? Seems that twitter and spacex taking up much more time so not sure what he is contributing to tesla in terms of oversight or vision. I also abhor him as a person, but as mentioned, the other CEOs are just quieter, no evidence they are not on a par, or worse.

On another note: I have been boycotting Koch brother industries for about a decade, maybe more. This came up in discussion with some people and someone else - with very strong, leftist, opinions was very eager to to do so too - so I forwarded the link of all the products on the koch boycott list - and they immediately replied with "OH! no, that is too hard! can't do it". I was floored, really. All their vocal outrage but won't change paper towel brands.

Telsa, as a company, is trying to be as green as possible. Adding solar components to all their charging stations, Refining the batteries to be less harmful environmentally along with the recycling of the battery components, etc.

Not trying to change your mind, your feelings are very strong here and I respect that, and we are all free to purchase whatever vehicle we choose, and any EV is better than an ICE. I am just outlining why my support for tesla the company is separate from my disapprobation for musk himself. Koch industries by comparison has no environmental committment, is doing nothing good for the planet and no intention to do or at least try to do good.

How musk reconciles siding with a political party that actively disputes global warming is beyond me. And not just the party - but the fringe conspiracies theories of the worst of them. My mind cannot even follow those mental gymnastics.

I'm sure his role as a visionary was very useful to tesla - but to my mind I don't think it is any longer, I don't see him spending much time on tesla, and I would welcome his replacement as ceo at this juncture. My hope is that the board remains independent of musk so that someone is assessing when the musk liability exceeds the asset that something is done.

[stealthwealth]

None of that matters.  As long as putting money into Tesla via products or stock enriches Elon Musk, Tesla is a non-starter.  And I do view the people that work for him as enablers.  Those employees have an obligation to force him out or quit.  And if they aren't doing one or both of those things, their livelihoods do not matter to me. 

[TomTX]

None of that matters. 

Nah, I think it's your ranting that doesn't matter.

Musk is definitely an asshole, but apparently you're pretty special too.

[AdrianC]

Did y'all see that Pete got one?

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2023/04/27/why-buy-model-y/

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/the-model-y-experiment/

"Why would you give Elon your money? He’s evil."
Ya, that one gets me, too.

I had high hopes for the Model Y with 4680 cells. Not panning out. The LR version seems a far better value.
I see the RWD Y using the LFP battery is available in Canada. Nice.

[ChpBstrd]

Months ago, I predicted that Tesla will eventually transition from tech wonderstock to just another carmaker. I said their margins were going to shrink due to lots of electric competition arriving in 2023. In the past few months we've seen massive five-figure price cuts that will definitely affect margins. I said they'd have to start advertising, and Musk just this week said they'll have to start doing exactly that. It's mid-2023 and we still can't buy a Cybertruck three and a half years after its announcement. Meanwhile, Ford has been selling its e-truck for a year now.

There was a case being made 6, 12, and 24 months ago that Tesla had so many entrenched advantages and such a unique product that competitors couldn't possibly catch up. People were multiplying Tesla's projected car sale volume growth of the past against margins from 2021. Back then, Tesla could charge a premium while not advertising and while running operations at 100% to meet seemingly insatiable demand. That view is not aging well and I saw it coming.

TSLA 6-mo return: -7.14%
TSLA 12-mo return: -28.01%
TSLA 24-mo return: -11.72%

HMC 6-mo return: +18.52%
HMC 12-mo return:  +13.23%
HMC 24-mo return: -6.55%

TM 6-mo return: -0.13%
TM 12-mo return: -10.75%
TM 24-mo return: -8.9%

[TomTX]

Gosh, if only we looked back at the return since the start of this thread. Let's add the 5 year:

TSLA 6-mo return: -7%
TSLA 12-mo return: -28%
TSLA 24-mo return: -12%
TSLA 5-yr return: +814%

HMC 6-mo return: +19%
HMC 12-mo return:  +13%
HMC 24-mo return: -7%
HMC 5-yr return: -14%

TM 6-mo return: -0%
TM 12-mo return: -11%
TM 24-mo return: -9%
TM 5-yr return: +4%

Paints a pretty different picture.

[ColoradoTribe]

Gosh, if only we looked back at the return since the start of this thread. Let's add the 5 year:

TSLA 6-mo return: -7%
TSLA 12-mo return: -28%
TSLA 24-mo return: -12%
TSLA 5-yr return: +814%

HMC 6-mo return: +19%
HMC 12-mo return:  +13%
HMC 24-mo return: -7%
HMC 5-yr return: -14%

TM 6-mo return: -0%
TM 12-mo return: -11%
TM 24-mo return: -9%
TM 5-yr return: +4%

Paints a pretty different picture.

I’m sure Honda and Toyota beat Tesla’s 10-year return of 2,900% though, right?

[ColoradoTribe]

FWIW, we can currently buy out options on TSLA expiring in January 2021 at the $50 strike price for about $6.88. In layman's terms, this is a wager that would yield a 627% return if TSLA goes bankrupt and shares go to zero and a 100% loss if that fails to happen.

Those are not bad odds considering that Elon's Twitter addiction might have just blocked the company's last remaining route to raise the $2B it needs to operate a little longer.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4207331-tesla-may-now-locked-capital-markets

I'm way too risk averse to throw $100k at the idea, but damn it sure is a tempting fantasy play to retire in 6-12 months.

ChpBastrd has been very consistent. He/she has consistently, since the inception of this thread, expressed deep concerns for nearly all things Tesla/Elon and predicted Tesla was on the verge of collapse. Like in Sept 2018, when he/she speculated Tesla would not be able to raise additional capital to “operate a little longer”.

He/she suggested/considered placing a bet on Tesla's imminent demise that would return 627% when Tesla went belly-up. Unfortunately, Tesla’a demise didn’t materialize that time or any other time ChpBastrd predicted. However, anyone simply buying and holding TSLA stock from the date of that post would have returned 870% based on today’s closing price.

To somehow suggest you’ve been right about Tesla all along (or at any point for that matter) based on some cherry-picked short-term time intervals and a mud slinging approach to identifying concerns with the company shows a desperation to be proven right over something you’ve clearly been wrong about for years. I’ve been wrong about investments I’ve made (or didn’t make) in the past. Its oaky, there’s no shame in it.

[mistymoney]

FWIW, we can currently buy out options on TSLA expiring in January 2021 at the $50 strike price for about $6.88. In layman's terms, this is a wager that would yield a 627% return if TSLA goes bankrupt and shares go to zero and a 100% loss if that fails to happen.

Those are not bad odds considering that Elon's Twitter addiction might have just blocked the company's last remaining route to raise the $2B it needs to operate a little longer.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4207331-tesla-may-now-locked-capital-markets

I'm way too risk averse to throw $100k at the idea, but damn it sure is a tempting fantasy play to retire in 6-12 months.

ChpBastrd has been very consistent. He/she has consistently, since the inception of this thread, expressed deep concerns for nearly all things Tesla/Elon and predicted Tesla was on the verge of collapse. Like in Sept 2018, when he/she speculated Tesla would not be able to raise additional capital to “operate a little longer”.

He/she suggested/considered placing a bet on Tesla's imminent demise that would return 627% when Tesla went belly-up. Unfortunately, Tesla’a demise didn’t materialize that time or any other time ChpBastrd predicted. However, anyone simply buying and holding TSLA stock from the date of that post would have returned 870% based on today’s closing price.

To somehow suggest you’ve been right about Tesla all along (or at any point for that matter) based on some cherry-picked short-term time intervals and a mud slinging approach to identifying concerns with the company shows a desperation to be proven right over something you’ve clearly been wrong about for years. I’ve been wrong about investments I’ve made (or didn’t make) in the past. Its oaky, there’s no shame in it.

someone is pretty lucky they didn't take that bet!

[ChpBstrd]

FWIW, we can currently buy out options on TSLA expiring in January 2021 at the $50 strike price for about $6.88. In layman's terms, this is a wager that would yield a 627% return if TSLA goes bankrupt and shares go to zero and a 100% loss if that fails to happen.

Those are not bad odds considering that Elon's Twitter addiction might have just blocked the company's last remaining route to raise the $2B it needs to operate a little longer.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4207331-tesla-may-now-locked-capital-markets

I'm way too risk averse to throw $100k at the idea, but damn it sure is a tempting fantasy play to retire in 6-12 months.

ChpBastrd has been very consistent. He/she has consistently, since the inception of this thread, expressed deep concerns for nearly all things Tesla/Elon and predicted Tesla was on the verge of collapse. Like in Sept 2018, when he/she speculated Tesla would not be able to raise additional capital to “operate a little longer”.

He/she suggested/considered placing a bet on Tesla's imminent demise that would return 627% when Tesla went belly-up. Unfortunately, Tesla’a demise didn’t materialize that time or any other time ChpBastrd predicted. However, anyone simply buying and holding TSLA stock from the date of that post would have returned 870% based on today’s closing price.

To somehow suggest you’ve been right about Tesla all along (or at any point for that matter) based on some cherry-picked short-term time intervals and a mud slinging approach to identifying concerns with the company shows a desperation to be proven right over something you’ve clearly been wrong about for years. I’ve been wrong about investments I’ve made (or didn’t make) in the past. Its oaky, there’s no shame in it.

Stocks are decisions where incomplete information, chaotic processes, and random chance are all factors in the results. These factors cannot be incorporated into our decisions, and yet the outcomes of our decisions are largely based on these factors.

Annie Duke writes about such decisions in Thinking In Bets from a professional poker player's perspective. She notes that for pros, it is impossible to tell whether a decision was good or bad based on the outcome of any particular poker hand. It is possible to make the right decision and lose a hand and it is possible to make the wrong decision and win a hand, all for reasons that are invisible or uncontrollable. The right and wrong decisions in this context are the decisions that would lead to profits if made over the course of hundreds or thousands of hands, not the decision that wins or loses a particular hand.

If a decision process resembles poker (having incomplete information, chaotic systems, and randomness as factors) then it is a fallacy to look at any one decision outcome and say that the decision was good or bad. Poker players have to think statistically, plan on making thousands of small bets if they are to see results, and focus on the avoidance of fallacies. A fallacy in this context is "resulting," which is using a particular result to determine the quality of the decision process.

According to Duke, the worst thing a poker player can do is develop a sort of superstitious heuristic rule based on the outcome of a couple hands, and to decide this is the Truth forevermore. For example, some players always keep playing if dealt a particular pair of cards because they believe this is a winning strategy. They do this because they won a couple of hands that way sometime in the past, and five or ten losses will not undo the belief formed by those two hands which may have occurred years ago.

In terms of a decision to overweight and de-diversify one's portfolio with a particular tech stock in a particular year, it's appropriate to ask yourself questions like:

• Would I probably beat the index if I made thousands of decisions like this over long periods of time, for example, exclusively buying stocks with a PE ratio of 400 or investments that had zoomed up in past years?
• Would I go broke more often, or in more possible future worlds, pursuing this strategy than if I just stuck with index investing?
• Am I committing the fallacy of resulting, when I say doing this one simple thing worked great in the past and conclude it is the Truth that will work in the future?
• If this decision was a process that I was committed to repeat, what other investments would I have to buy into to be consistent? Speculative investments like Dogecoin had some stellar years too.

It's the answers to these questions that make me say it's unwise to overweight Tesla. I don't know that TSLA's stock price is going down, because that depends on a lot of unknowable factors. I do know this idea of overweighting media darling tech stocks has a different and more variable risk and return profile than I'm pursuing.

More importantly, what's the plan here? Even if TSLA achieves world domination, they merely become Toyota, and TM sells for 10x earnings. Tesla's selling for 51x earnings today, and it is likely their earnings will decline because the price cuts have removed the majority of their margin. So we have a 51x company about to become a triple-digit PE company that strives to someday become a 10x company. We have a company with a $551B market cap that hopes to someday be like the market leader with a $193B market cap. Are these good reasons to take on additional non-systemic portfolio risk? In poker terms, that's a big call to make on a weak hand.

[jnw]

Elon just very recently said he will say whatever he wants and if loses money (i.e. stock suffers) so be it. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sUwRiIncKU

My friend just bought a Chevy Bolt recently. He had wanted a Tesla, but after Elon starting spewing out what he thought was very divisive and hateful, he decided not to get one.

In the past I told myself I wanted a Tesla if I was going to buy an electric vehicle in the future.  But now, like my friend, I have changed my mind.  I feel the same way as him about Elon.  (I really used to like the guy.)

So I dunno.  Doesn't seem like good business practice to be divisive and exclude millions of customers.  And from the small sample I've seen, it will affect future sales.

[EchoStache]

I found this result surprising...namely in terms of how poorly every car shown performed......except Tesla.

https://twitter.com/elektrotimmy/status/1652319408201539586?s=20

If I was so strongly morally opposed to Elon Musk, I suppose I'd have to consider why I'm buying broad market index funds.......I bought one of his cars even though he makes some dumb tweets or comments, and I suppose I continue to support his company every time I purchase FXAIX.

[mistymoney]

Elon just very recently said he will say whatever he wants and if loses money (i.e. stock suffers) so be it. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sUwRiIncKU

My friend just bought a Chevy Bolt recently. He had wanted a Tesla, but after Elon starting spewing out what he thought was very divisive and hateful, he decided not to get one.

In the past I told myself I wanted a Tesla if I was going to buy an electric vehicle in the future.  But now, like my friend, I have changed my mind.  I feel the same way as him about Elon.  (I really used to like the guy.)

So I dunno.  Doesn't seem like good business practice to be divisive and exclude millions of customers.  And from the small sample I've seen, it will affect future sales.

I saw that! Did you see the acutal clip not the write up about it? Very disturbing.

knock knock....tesla board....time to talk! He can be as dismissive as he likes about his money....but seems he isn't getting that tesla isn't privately owned like twitter.

I mean, true mental illness is a real possibility here, imo. Or just edging near to psychosis via lack of sleep....it was not a good look - thought he might have started disassociating or something...

[mistymoney]

I found this result surprising...namely in terms of how poorly every car shown performed......except Tesla.

https://twitter.com/elektrotimmy/status/1652319408201539586?s=20

If I was so strongly morally opposed to Elon Musk, I suppose I'd have to consider why I'm buying broad market index funds.......I bought one of his cars even though he makes some dumb tweets or comments, and I suppose I continue to support his company every time I purchase FXAIX.

Good points! Likely isn't a person on this board that doesn't have some tesla shares somewhere!

The safety of tesla isn't talked about enough. There was someone jumped on here to post about the tesla driving off a cliff - assuming that the autopilot was a fault. Did not come back when it was revealed it was a deliberate suicide/murder attempt, and everyone survived because of the tesla....

tesla is so much more than musk....even though he doesn't think so!

[jnw]

Well I invest in America, yeah there is a percentage of Tesla in VTI, but there are also a lot of other nasty companies.  I try and ignore that and justify it by realizing that overall America is a decent country.  But, I will never directly invest in Tesla, or buy one of his cars.

But companies should stay out of extreme politics. I don't see how it can help them. This country is so divided right now, if a company or CEO takes a strong stance in one direction, insulting or alienating HALF of the country, then they could lose half their sales. I'm no business major but it seems like common sense.

[Herbert Derp]

Honestly it has gotten to the point that I think Elon is developing some kind of mental illness. How can you look at a guy who is covered in Nazi tattoos and confidently say there’s no proof that he was a white supremacist? Granted, white supremacist was a deliberately loaded choice of words, they should have just called the guy a neo-Nazi (also, he was Hispanic, not White). Regardless, it seems clear to me that Elon is not acting in his own rational self interest when he makes public statements like this. Something just isn’t right with him.

Elon Musk used to be a visionary and inspiring leader who could motivate his companies to make the impossible possible. But something started going wrong with him around the time of the Pedo Guy incident and since then it has only gotten worse. Today, he has gone so far down the right wing conspiracy rabbit hole that it is seriously hampering his ability to inspire his employees and lead his companies. If his mental health continues to deteriorate, I am not sure how much longer he can remain as CEO of Tesla.

Strange as it may sound, this sort of thing isn’t all that unusual for people like Elon. Henry Ford, Nikola Tesla, and Howard Hughes all suffered from severe mental declines that brought about the downfall of their careers. Elon seems to be on the same path.

[ColoradoTribe]

I found this result surprising...namely in terms of how poorly every car shown performed......except Tesla.

https://twitter.com/elektrotimmy/status/1652319408201539586?s=20

If I was so strongly morally opposed to Elon Musk, I suppose I'd have to consider why I'm buying broad market index funds.......I bought one of his cars even though he makes some dumb tweets or comments, and I suppose I continue to support his company every time I purchase FXAIX.

Good points! Likely isn't a person on this board that doesn't have some tesla shares somewhere!

The safety of tesla isn't talked about enough. There was someone jumped on here to post about the tesla driving off a cliff - assuming that the autopilot was a fault. Did not come back when it was revealed it was a deliberate suicide/murder attempt, and everyone survived because of the tesla....

tesla is so much more than musk....even though he doesn't think so!

Very true, Tesla is 130,000 employees working hard to move the world towards a cleaner all electric future and prevent a climate catastrophe. There has been a shift in Elon’s view of the world and politics in recent years for sure. I strongly oppose some of his viewpoints. Elon is narcissistic, childish, and stubborn. However, to Elon’s credit he is not immovable, he is constantly assessing and reevaluating. I’ve always been impressed by his willingness to make major course corrections (move away from automation early in M3 ramp). Here’s to hoping that he soon realizes that his right to free speech doesn’t trump his fiduciary responsibility to share holders.

I think folks that are swearing off Tesla solely because of Elon are taking a very narrow view.  Elon will be rich and annoying wethe ror not you buy a Tesla. By not supporting Tesla we do risk hurting the mission. It's clear to me that the industry will only move to electrify as quickly as they are pushed by Tesla. The folks that will be most effected by any sort of boycott are the employees, who are doing good noble work to make a living and support their families.

We as consumers buy dozens of products daily. Several from companies actively destroying the planet. Half of these products are made by companies, headed by CEOs with whom half the country would strongly disagree with their politics and beliefs if they were widely known. Elon's political beliefs and worldview are not unique, it's only his stupid need to share his stream of consciousness with the public that is unique.  So, unless folks are looking into the politics of every CEO for every product they buy, its seems odd to single out Tesla.

Lastly, I’d say consumers that buy another EV besides Tesla are spiting themselves a bit if they are paying a comparable price. Tesla is the best EV value proposition. No other EV offers the level of safety, better autonomous features, or the ability to quickly and freely move about the country via the supercharger network. This is why I’m glad Elon/Tesla are gong to start advertising. The more people know about Tesla and EVs in general the clearer Tesla’s advantages become to the average consumer.

[ColoradoTribe]

Well I invest in America, yeah there is a percentage of Tesla in VTI, but there are also a lot of other nasty companies.  I try and ignore that and justify it by realizing that overall America is a decent country.  But, I will never directly invest in Tesla, or buy one of his cars.

But companies should stay out of extreme politics. I don't see how it can help them. This country is so divided right now, if a company or CEO takes a strong stance in one direction, insulting or alienating HALF of the country, then they could lose half their sales. I'm no business major but it seems like common sense.

Elon likes to be contrarian and subscribes to conspiracy theories too readily, but he is not a political ideologue. He voted for Biden, so he’s not MAGA. If I had to give him a brand, I’d say he’s a tin-foil hat libertarian. I agree he should be avoiding unnecessary controversy.

I’d like folks to also consider that Tesla/SpaceX is disrupting multiple billion/trillion dollar industries (oil and gas, car manufacturing, car dealership network, car insurance, electric utilities, aerospace, ISP w/ Starlink, commercial trucking, etc.). The incumbents are not going to go quietly. The incumbents spend huge on paid advertising and have allies in the media. Most the negative articles on Elon/Tesla are either influenced by those advertising dollars or the author was paid directly to produce negative articles. The amount of misinformation and distortion is stunning. Because Tesla does not advertise there is no disincentive or leverage Tesla can use with the media outlets to affect the tone of the coverage.

I’m not saying Elon doesn’t provide plenty of material needlessly, but it’s important to recognize there is a coordinated campaign to slow Tesla down. Billions are at stake based on how quickly and how fully this disruption plays out. The incumbents will do everything they can to prolong the profits, planet be daamned. First they tried maligning Tesla products and the company, when that failed (and with Elon’s help) they shifted to maligning Elon to damage the brand.

[mistymoney]

Honestly it has gotten to the point that I think Elon is developing some kind of mental illness. How can you look at a guy who is covered in Nazi tattoos and confidently say there’s no proof that he was a white supremacist? Granted, white supremacist was a deliberately loaded choice of words, they should have just called the guy a neo-Nazi (also, he was Hispanic, not White). Regardless, it seems clear to me that Elon is not acting in his own rational self interest when he makes public statements like this. Something just isn’t right with him.

Elon Musk used to be a visionary and inspiring leader who could motivate his companies to make the impossible possible. But something started going wrong with him around the time of the Pedo Guy incident and since then it has only gotten worse. Today, he has gone so far down the right wing conspiracy rabbit hole that it is seriously hampering his ability to inspire his employees and lead his companies. If his mental health continues to deteriorate, I am not sure how much longer he can remain as CEO of Tesla.

Strange as it may sound, this sort of thing isn’t all that unusual for people like Elon. Henry Ford, Nikola Tesla, and Howard Hughes all suffered from severe mental declines that brought about the downfall of their careers. Elon seems to be on the same path.

Totally agree.....its very concerning. he's become tesla's greatest handicap rather than asset. I remember seeing him on late night TV about 10 years ago - and I was so uplifted to hear that a corporation was looking to make a huge shift in the automotive industry to benefit climate. He did seem such a visionary. And someone who could make it happen. Seeing what he had done since then with all his companies up to about 1.5-2 years ago was inspiring.

Now he seems like a megalomaniac rotting from the inside out only courting attention from every sphere he can get it.

And see all those optimi marching about on the twitter video couple with his state of mind.....not so uplifting!!!

[ColoradoTribe]

Honestly it has gotten to the point that I think Elon is developing some kind of mental illness. How can you look at a guy who is covered in Nazi tattoos and confidently say there’s no proof that he was a white supremacist? Granted, white supremacist was a deliberately loaded choice of words, they should have just called the guy a neo-Nazi (also, he was Hispanic, not White). Regardless, it seems clear to me that Elon is not acting in his own rational self interest when he makes public statements like this. Something just isn’t right with him.

Elon Musk used to be a visionary and inspiring leader who could motivate his companies to make the impossible possible. But something started going wrong with him around the time of the Pedo Guy incident and since then it has only gotten worse. Today, he has gone so far down the right wing conspiracy rabbit hole that it is seriously hampering his ability to inspire his employees and lead his companies. If his mental health continues to deteriorate, I am not sure how much longer he can remain as CEO of Tesla.

Strange as it may sound, this sort of thing isn’t all that unusual for people like Elon. Henry Ford, Nikola Tesla, and Howard Hughes all suffered from severe mental declines that brought about the downfall of their careers. Elon seems to be on the same path.

Fair assessment, and I can’t disagree. Elon sleeps 6 hours a night and works 360 days a year. He is relentless and to a large extent walled off from the realities of a normal daily life. Not hard to imagine some mental illness creeping in under those conditions. What’s made him brilliant may also be his undoing.

Also worth noting, that’s he has Aspergers and is bi-polar I believe. The awkwardness and seeming inability to empathize and take social cues stems in part from this.

I guess I think Elon can be both. He can be a controversial public figure that takes odd and troubling positions AND a laser-focused visionary changing the world for the better. With Elon you take the good with the bad, and the good far outweighs the bad from any objective measure.

[jnw]

Elon has made one particular comment that was so bad, that no amount of good that he has done can outweigh it.  What he said really drove the nail in the coffin for me to never want to purchase any products he makes.  I won't repeat what he said, to keep this thread drama free.

[ColoradoTribe]

Honestly it has gotten to the point that I think Elon is developing some kind of mental illness. How can you look at a guy who is covered in Nazi tattoos and confidently say there’s no proof that he was a white supremacist? Granted, white supremacist was a deliberately loaded choice of words, they should have just called the guy a neo-Nazi (also, he was Hispanic, not White). Regardless, it seems clear to me that Elon is not acting in his own rational self interest when he makes public statements like this. Something just isn’t right with him.

Elon Musk used to be a visionary and inspiring leader who could motivate his companies to make the impossible possible. But something started going wrong with him around the time of the Pedo Guy incident and since then it has only gotten worse. Today, he has gone so far down the right wing conspiracy rabbit hole that it is seriously hampering his ability to inspire his employees and lead his companies. If his mental health continues to deteriorate, I am not sure how much longer he can remain as CEO of Tesla.

Strange as it may sound, this sort of thing isn’t all that unusual for people like Elon. Henry Ford, Nikola Tesla, and Howard Hughes all suffered from severe mental declines that brought about the downfall of their careers. Elon seems to be on the same path.

Totally agree.....its very concerning. he's become tesla's greatest handicap rather than asset. I remember seeing him on late night TV about 10 years ago - and I was so uplifted to hear that a corporation was looking to make a huge shift in the automotive industry to benefit climate. He did seem such a visionary. And someone who could make it happen. Seeing what he had done since then with all his companies up to about 1.5-2 years ago was inspiring.

Now he seems like a megalomaniac rotting from the inside out only courting attention from every sphere he can get it.

And see all those optimi marching about on the twitter video couple with his state of mind.....not so uplifting!!!

See my previous post. I only disagree in that Elon has not abandoned the mission. He is still visionary and the Tesla mission is only accelerating. Tesla would be better off if Elon left Twitter, sure. Tesla would be better without Elon as the public face as CEO. However, I do not think Tesla would be better without Elon contributing to and driving the mission. We take for granted what he has accomplished (with a lot of help) these past 15 years. Elon sacrificed time with family, vacations and having a personal life to the mission (probably a couple marriages along the way).

Again, when you weigh what he’s sacrificed and what he’s accomplished against some unsavory social media rantings that are just words in the end, Elon has been huge net force for positive change in the world and continues to be in spite of his antics. He’s human, like any of us. Imperfect. Nuanced. There are far worse humans running Fortune 500 companies, we just don’t know their names.

[jnw]

One of his rants was not "just a few words in the end".  It is eternally unacceptable unless he apologizes and changes his tune.

[ColoradoTribe]

One of his rants was not "just a few words in the end".  It is eternally unacceptable unless he apologizes and changes his tune.

When I say a “a few words in the end”, I’m not down-playing the hurt and emotional toll words can have. What I mean is that his words, even if abhorrent, have little actual impact in the world beyond the stir they cause. Elon is not an elected official or policy maker. He doesn’t spend large sums trying to influence elections like the Koch brothers or George Soros. He likes to throw verbal grenades. His words may exacerbate and inflame our already divided politics, but in the end there is little to nothing that tangibly changes in the world based on his opinions and utterances. Compare that to the very real impact Tesla and SpaceX are having on the world towards the positive. Elon is a net force for positive change in the word by a large margin.

I’m not suggesting you not to take exception or offense, that’s you’re right, as it is to boycott Tesla. I’m deeply troubled by Elon’s opinions on a number of topics.  But I think you are being overly simplistic. Humans are not either good or evil.  I think a better approach is to weigh all the good Elon has manifested in the world against his hurtful and distasteful words. It’s the same thing we do with our personal relationships. We weigh the good and bad qualities and action of our friends and families when choosing when and how to associate.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Good points! Likely isn't a person on this board that doesn't have some tesla shares somewhere!

Consider dividend investors who avoid non-dividend paying stocks.  Or investors who panicked from 2022 losses and remain 100% cash now.  Finally, neither of these represents my situation, but I have $0 in public equities ($0 public stocks, $0 index funds, $0 equity ETFs).

[jnw]

He doesn’t spend large sums trying to influence elections like the Koch brothers or George Soros.

He doesn't?  I thought he just paid $44 billion for twitter.  Right after he bought it he switched to the far right and started spewing out hateful things and invited Trump back etc.  He also unbanned accounts of anti-semites etc.

I'll refrain.  But thanks for your viewpoints, I agree with a lot of what you say.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

This thread asks "Is Tesla a good investment".  The most relevant to that, in my view, are things like demand for Tesla's products and future revenue streams.  David Faber interviewed Elon Musk, touching on both of those points.

China's market for EVs is far more compeititve than the U.S., yet that competition doesn't impact Tesla's business.  In China, Tesla is constrained by production, not demand.  Just to add my own take, Wikipedia shows 4x more EVs in China, whch roughly equals their 4x higher population.  But still, 4x demand met by 4x production (not just Tesla).

Faber questioned the optimism of autonomous driving later this year, pointing to past years with the same claim.  I side with Faber - very rare intervention over a weekend isn't rare enough.  It's also telling that Mr Musk didn't mention regulation, which I've seen be a blind spot of his in the past.  To enable this later this year requires regulations be passed in weeks, when I think years is a more likely scenario.  So a lot of obstacles to the technology, and then to regulatory approval.
 But if it succeeds, this enables a new revenue stream for Tesla: self-driving cars could be robo-Ubers.  Tesla's contracts have covered this for many years, apparently.

[jnw]

Yeah and I think it isn't a good investment at all, because he's alienated half of the country.  I don't think there will be as much demand here in the states as they think.  Maybe he'll just have to sell more to China or whoever.  He's a very STUPID CEO for being so bright.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

... I won't repeat what he said, to keep this thread drama free.

One of his rants was not "just a few words in the end".  It is eternally unacceptable unless he apologizes and changes his tune.

... spewing out hateful things and invited Trump back etc.  He also unbanned accounts of anti-semites etc.

I'll refrain ...

Yeah and I think it isn't a good investment at all, because he's alienated half of the country.  I don't think there will be as much demand here in the states as they think.  Maybe he'll just have to sell more to China or whoever.  He's a very STUPID CEO for being so bright.

How is that "drama free" claim of yours going?  You said "I'll refrain" and now you're posting "He's a very STUPID CEO".  You can start a new thread in "off topic" rather than try to repeatedly post here driving this thread off topic.

[ChpBstrd]

Musk's involvement in Tesla was primarily as a venture capitalist, large shareholder, board member, spokesperson, and as the person who picks the lieutenants who run the company (CEO).

Given his multiple companies to oversee, it seems likely to me that he had minimal influence in many of the ways we describe when we say someone "runs" a company. I.e. how many hours per day can he devote to deep-diving into contracts and regulations, recruiting talent, analyzing the company's financials, aligning company culture, etc?

As I noted before, Musk's "genius" may merely reflect his absence, sort of like how the best performing accounts belong to the dead investors. His lieutenants couldn't infight for the CEO's favor if the CEO wasn't present very often or was too distracted to notice their jabs at each other. Big initiatives could proceed for years without whiplash from a CEO constantly changing the company's direction. Managers didn't have to take time to explain technical details to a top leader who can't possibly understand them. Leaders had autonomy and they were forced to cooperate. The culture became the opposite of micromanagement.*

Now with Twitter we've learned what happens when Musk gets hands-on with an already monopolistic company and fires all its existing lieutenants: downtime, losses of market share, openings for competitors, product initiatives that are here today and gone tomorrow, unpaid suppliers, lawsuits, etc. This would have been the case with Tesla had Musk not been too distracted by his other companies to micromanage Tesla.

Now that Twitter is off his plate, maybe Musk will get into AI like he's talked about. But there's also the risk he jumps back into Tesla to micromanage its transition into a normal automaker.

TL;DR: Don't worry too much about Musk, but watch him as a risk.

*This perspective calls into question our culture of CEO-worship and the high compensation CEOs are provided. Are they really creating that much value? How often do they destroy value? Are people at the VP level really too incompetent to make things happen without a rare-bird chief executive with a one-in-a-million personality?

[medinaj2160]

Yeah and I think it isn't a good investment at all, because he's alienated half of the country.  I don't think there will be as much demand here in the states as they think.  Maybe he'll just have to sell more to China or whoever.  He's a very STUPID CEO for being so bright.

Half of the country doesn't care about left or the right. Not everyone cares about politics and all that nonsense. I know of two very democrat people that go on LGTBQ marches etc and they both drive Tesla's. Only the extremist will not buy a product because of what he says the rest know that Tesla's are the safest cars on the road, the most efficient EV's with a great charging network and that Tesla has the most advanced real world AI in the world. Tesla financials are on of the strongest in the market and they are prepared for any recession. If you can handle the volatility and you are young there is a high possibility that will payout handsomely eventually.

[ChpBstrd]

Half of the country doesn't care about left or the right. Not everyone cares about politics and all that nonsense. I know of two very democrat people that go on LGTBQ marches etc and they both drive Tesla's. Only the extremist will not buy a product because of what he says

I also doubt the efficacy of boycotts. I know lots of people who are adamant about women's rights. They pick up Chick-fil-a on the way to Hobby Lobby.

[mistymoney]

I found this result surprising...namely in terms of how poorly every car shown performed......except Tesla.

https://twitter.com/elektrotimmy/status/1652319408201539586?s=20

If I was so strongly morally opposed to Elon Musk, I suppose I'd have to consider why I'm buying broad market index funds.......I bought one of his cars even though he makes some dumb tweets or comments, and I suppose I continue to support his company every time I purchase FXAIX.

Good points! Likely isn't a person on this board that doesn't have some tesla shares somewhere!

The safety of tesla isn't talked about enough. There was someone jumped on here to post about the tesla driving off a cliff - assuming that the autopilot was a fault. Did not come back when it was revealed it was a deliberate suicide/murder attempt, and everyone survived because of the tesla....

tesla is so much more than musk....even though he doesn't think so!

I think folks that are swearing off Tesla solely because of Elon are taking a very narrow view.  Elon will be rich and annoying wethe ror not you buy a Tesla. By not supporting Tesla we do risk hurting the mission. It's clear to me that the industry will only move to electrify as quickly as they are pushed by Tesla. The folks that will be most effected by any sort of boycott are the employees, who are doing good noble work to make a living and support their families.

We as consumers buy dozens of products daily. Several from companies actively destroying the planet. Half of these products are made by companies, headed by CEOs with whom half the country would strongly disagree with their politics and beliefs if they were widely known. Elon's political beliefs and worldview are not unique, it's only his stupid need to share his stream of consciousness with the public that is unique.  So, unless folks looking into the politics of every CEO for every product they buy, its seems odd to single out Tesla.

this is so true! I mentioned about paper products up thread. No one said boo. If any of you are buying brawy paper towels, quilted northern toilet paper, and dozens of other koch brothers' paper products, then you really aren't doing your homework or thinking for yourself about the relative effects of what you are buying.

The huge negative on buying a tesla is making musk richer. Due to personal animosity. Well, ok? Is that the extent of your politically motivated shopping? Meanwhile, the koch bros industries have been manipulating politics in a deliberately stealthy manner for decades.

road tripping seems to a major issue in moving to EVs. In terms of other electric vehicles, the likelihood is that those who purchase other EVs are going to be using tesla chargers when road tripping or other nonhome charging

[mistymoney]

Elon has made one particular comment that was so bad, that no amount of good that he has done can outweigh it.  What he said really drove the nail in the coffin for me to never want to purchase any products he makes.  I won't repeat what he said, to keep this thread drama free.

I'd like to know!!!

[mistymoney]

Half of the country doesn't care about left or the right. Not everyone cares about politics and all that nonsense. I know of two very democrat people that go on LGTBQ marches etc and they both drive Tesla's. Only the extremist will not buy a product because of what he says

I also doubt the efficacy of boycotts. I know lots of people who are adamant about women's rights. They pick up Chick-fil-a on the way to Hobby Lobby.

sidebar: both on my personal boycott list! along with Angelsoft, Brawny, Dixie, Mardi Gras, Quilted Northern, Soft n Gentle, Sparkle, Vanity Fair

[ColoradoTribe]

Musk's involvement in Tesla was primarily as a venture capitalist, large shareholder, board member, spokesperson, and as the person who picks the lieutenants who run the company (CEO).

Given his multiple companies to oversee, it seems likely to me that he had minimal influence in many of the ways we describe when we say someone "runs" a company. I.e. how many hours per day can he devote to deep-diving into contracts and regulations, recruiting talent, analyzing the company's financials, aligning company culture, etc?

As I noted before, Musk's "genius" may merely reflect his absence, sort of like how the best performing accounts belong to the dead investors. His lieutenants couldn't infight for the CEO's favor if the CEO wasn't present very often or was too distracted to notice their jabs at each other. Big initiatives could proceed for years without whiplash from a CEO constantly changing the company's direction. Managers didn't have to take time to explain technical details to a top leader who can't possibly understand them. Leaders had autonomy and they were forced to cooperate. The culture became the opposite of micromanagement.*

Now with Twitter we've learned what happens when Musk gets hands-on with an already monopolistic company and fires all its existing lieutenants: downtime, losses of market share, openings for competitors, product initiatives that are here today and gone tomorrow, unpaid suppliers, lawsuits, etc. This would have been the case with Tesla had Musk not been too distracted by his other companies to micromanage Tesla.

Now that Twitter is off his plate, maybe Musk will get into AI like he's talked about. But there's also the risk he jumps back into Tesla to micromanage its transition into a normal automaker.

TL;DR: Don't worry too much about Musk, but watch him as a risk.

*This perspective calls into question our culture of CEO-worship and the high compensation CEOs are provided. Are they really creating that much value? How often do they destroy value? Are people at the VP level really too incompetent to make things happen without a rare-bird chief executive with a one-in-a-million personality?

Bolded is as far as I could get. You lose all credibility (not that you have any on the subject of Tesla) with that statement. Tesla was little more than an idea when Musk bought in. They had one concept car that was going no where fast. Musk came up with Road Map 1 (start with high end and work down market). This is the plan that took Tesla from life support to mass production. He was heavily involved in the engineering of the vehicles and engineering of the production plant itself. He created a company with a mission and culture that attracted the best talent in the world. That didn’t happen by chance. That you could somehow dismiss all that as Elon essentially being nothing more than the money guy?

I’m not sure what axe you have to grind when it comes to Tesla, but you clearly are not objective. Perhaps being off on the company's prospects and missing the investment opportunity jaded you? Don’t know, just a guess, don’t care what motivates to continually come here and spout nonsense, but do wish you’d stop.

[EchoStache]

I'm very curious to see how 2nd quarter ends up for Tesla and the auto industry as a whole.  Tesla took some criticism for declining margins after their price cuts, and whether or not the price cuts had a big enough effect on sales.  They fell short of the 50% YoY growth but hit estimates.

One point of comparison is one of the top selling EV's other than Tesla, the Ford Mustang Mach-E.  Somewhere in the neighborhood of a 65% sales decrease in April 2023. vs prior year.  This is at a price point where Ford is losing a fortune i.e. 10's of thousands per car.   So perhaps Tesla's ~37% year over year sales increase is not a bad result in comparison?  As a direct comparison, Mustang Mach-E was 20% sales decrease Q1.

Current total US inventory of Tesla is about 2400 cars, fully half of which are Model X.  So there are a grand total of 1200 M3, MY, and MS combined. 

Ford Mustang Mach-E....I don't have an accurate inventory source, but Autotrader shows over 5500 new Mach-E's.......

[Herbert Derp]

I don’t get the people who conclude that Elon must be some kind of psychopathic villain just because he said stuff on Twitter that they don’t agree with. Elon is no more evil than your crazy uncle who rants about George Soros and the New World Order at Thanksgiving dinner. Crazy, yes. Evil, no.

That said, I really want to drive the point home that something just isn’t right with Elon. Tesla didn’t need to advertise in the past because Elon was loved by the public and could advertise for free on Twitter. Now, his tweets are hurting the company, not helping it. Elon’s public statements are causing material harm to his companies and hindering him from achieving his stated goals of transitioning the world to sustainable energy, making human civilization multi-planetary, and “extending the light of consciousness”. Because of Elon’s public statements, people are no longer inspired by him, most of the public has come to hate him, corporations and politicians are less willing to work with his companies, and some politicians are even deliberately targeting his companies and trying to harm them. At this point, Elon has almost completely lost his soft power and ability to influence people. And for what?

Just imagine what Elon could have achieved if he had never made any controversial public statements, and remained focused on his stated goals. Tesla wouldn’t need to advertise. Elon would be adored by the public and have soft power greater than most world leaders. Instead, Elon has apparently chosen to act against his rational self interest and ruin his reputation, harm his companies, and hinder his goals. The man is clearly mentally ill.

[medinaj2160]

I don’t get the people who conclude that Elon must be some kind of psychopathic villain just because he said stuff on Twitter that they don’t agree with. Elon is no more evil than your crazy uncle who rants about George Soros and the New World Order at Thanksgiving dinner. Crazy, yes. Evil, no.

That said, I really want to drive the point home that something just isn’t right with Elon. Tesla didn’t need to advertise in the past because Elon was loved by the public and could advertise for free on Twitter. Now, his tweets are hurting the company, not helping it. Elon’s public statements are causing material harm to his companies and hindering him from achieving his stated goals of transitioning the world to sustainable energy, making human civilization multi-planetary, and “extending the light of consciousness”. Because of Elon’s public statements, people are no longer inspired by him, most of the public has come to hate him, corporations and politicians are less willing to work with his companies, and some politicians are even deliberately targeting his companies and trying to harm them. At this point, Elon has almost completely lost his soft power and ability to influence people. And for what?

Just imagine what Elon could have achieved if he had never made any controversial public statements, and remained focused on his stated goals. Tesla wouldn’t need to advertise. Elon would be adored by the public and have soft power greater than most world leaders. Instead, Elon has apparently chosen to act against his rational self interest and ruin his reputation, harm his companies, and hinder his goals. The man is clearly mentally ill.

The hate on Tesla by the media is nothing new. CNBC has been trashing in him or Tesla since their IPO. Detroit and the media always wanted him to fail. Check out Jim Cramer's and Phil's interview from Tesla's IPO to see the hate at the time he was only know from his PayPal success. Electric cars are polarizing and they bring lots of hate.

[ColoradoTribe]

This from my news feed today. Just one example of Tesla and Elon's commitment to making the world better and minimizing the impact of Tesla’s operation. An illustration of how its overly simplistic to say Elon bad. Elon will over engineer the vehicles to make them as safe as possible instead of maximizing profits. He’s neither a saint, nor the devil. I can only hope to have a fraction of the positive impact on the world that he has personally brought about.

https://www.tesla-mag.com/tesla-to-conduct-third-party-audit-of-its-battery-material-suppliers/

[TomTX]

Musk's involvement in Tesla was primarily

Gosh, you seem as misinformed about his involvement as you do about what you most recently posted about automotive stocks. I note that you're trying to change the subject instead of addressing how your apparent position was thoroughly destroyed.

Anyway, this isn't trying to defend Musk as a person - it's pretty damn clear now that he's an out-of-touch-conspiracy-addicted-asshole.

That doesn't preclude him having actual significant technical accomplishments.

[jnw]

How is that "drama free" claim of yours going?  You said "I'll refrain" and now you're posting "He's a very STUPID CEO".  You can start a new thread in "off topic" rather than try to repeatedly post here driving this thread off topic.

It's going fine thanks. I have been drama free and will remain so. I hope you are doing okay as well.

I said I wanted to remain drama free with respect to not wanting to quote the unacceptable thing he said.

The topic is "Is Tesla a Good Investment" and I answered NO because he is alienating half the country. Everything I said was on topic.. and valid. He is stupid because it will affect share owners of TSLA.

And I'm saddened that I upset you but: You made a statement that he didn't invest in politics, and I explained that you were overlooking the $44B he spent on twitter.  Elon Musk made the following tweet on twitter right after it was announced he was buying Twitter.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1519735033950470144

[jnw]

Every CEO (and person) is entitled to their own opinion, and frankly I don't care what CEO's think of privately.  But to make very public deeply polarizing statements, one after another, continually, is beyond stupid. I have never seen a CEO of a large company do this.  It will affect the sales so that's why I think TSLA isn't a good investment.  Look at what AB did recently, and they flip flopped and now NO ONE wants to buy their beer; recently saw a promo code on Doctor of Credit that AB was offering free Bud Light.  Leave politics out of business. It only hurts things.  (Warren Buffet said a year or so ago at a meeting, that politics has no place in business; it's his policy to remain neutral.)

You may think what Elon says deserves only a slap on the wrist, but I don't think you see it from the perspective of the other half of the country; what he says may not be that bad to you but extremely hurtful to many others.  He says unforgivable things continually.  He's a very divisive loose cannon.  No thanks.

A smart business owner would want to maximize the profits for himself and the rest of the shareholders.  He (or she) would find ways he could appeal to everyone, maximizing sales.  Not say things which drive away half of the customer base.  It doesn't matter if you are republican, democrat or independent, everyone deserves respect. But a CEO calling half of the people in this country names and suggesting they be imprisoned isn't respectful at all, and frankly stupid.

P.S. Keep in mind I used to LOVE this guy, until he changed all of a sudden last year; i.e. until he started calling me and my friends & family names.

[maizefolk]

A smart business owner would want to maximize the profits for himself and the rest of the shareholders.  He (or she) would find ways he could appeal to everyone, maximizing sales.  Not say things which drive away half of the customer base.  It doesn't matter if you are republican, democrat or independent, everyone deserves respect. But a CEO calling half of the people in this country names and suggesting they be imprisoned isn't respectful at all, and frankly stupid.

I understand you've already stated you don't want to discuss whatever Musk said specifically in the last couple of days that was particularly alienating or offensive to you. However, I tried to google and figure out what it would be and nothing obviously stood out. The top stories that come up about him right now are twitter fighting about paying rent, Musk wanting a bathroom in his office, and laid off workers suing twitter. None sound as dramatic as what you describe.

I'm not questioning that Musk said something transgressive or offensive. But I do want to ask you if you'd be willing to reconsider your fractions.

You've said Musk has driven away half the country from Tesla. From a mixture of context and knowing the kinds of offensive things Musk says without knowing the specific thing you're talking about, I'm guessing you mean the liberal/Democratic half of the country? If so, a better estimate of the proportion of the country that are going to see that as applying to themselves is probably on the order of 1/3. About 1/3 of eligible voters came out and voted for Joe Biden in what was seen as an existential election. 24-30% of people identify as democrats when reached by pollsters.

Of the 1/3 of people who might feel targeted, an unknown but non-trivial fraction aren't paying attention or aren't hearing about the stuff Musk is saying. It's hard to believe if you're embedded in the social media or cable news worlds and getting fed constant outrages, but a lot of people simply don't follow or know about this stuff. Of the people who might feel targeted and do hear about it, a subset are going to respond to Musk saying stupid or offensive things by saying "okay he's an idiot" but change their purchasing decisions.

Put all that together and my guess is Musk has actually driven away 10-20% of the country from Tesla. Which is still millions and millions of people. Still not good for Tesla. And still something no company wants its CEO to do. But it isn't half the country.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

And I'm saddened that I upset you but: You made a statement that he didn't invest in politics, and I explained that you were overlooking the $44B he spent on twitter.

Don't lie about what I said.  Quote where I said what you claimed.

[ColoradoTribe]

I don’t get the people who conclude that Elon must be some kind of psychopathic villain just because he said stuff on Twitter that they don’t agree with. Elon is no more evil than your crazy uncle who rants about George Soros and the New World Order at Thanksgiving dinner. Crazy, yes. Evil, no.

That said, I really want to drive the point home that something just isn’t right with Elon. Tesla didn’t need to advertise in the past because Elon was loved by the public and could advertise for free on Twitter. Now, his tweets are hurting the company, not helping it. Elon’s public statements are causing material harm to his companies and hindering him from achieving his stated goals of transitioning the world to sustainable energy, making human civilization multi-planetary, and “extending the light of consciousness”. Because of Elon’s public statements, people are no longer inspired by him, most of the public has come to hate him, corporations and politicians are less willing to work with his companies, and some politicians are even deliberately targeting his companies and trying to harm them. At this point, Elon has almost completely lost his soft power and ability to influence people. And for what?

Just imagine what Elon could have achieved if he had never made any controversial public statements, and remained focused on his stated goals. Tesla wouldn’t need to advertise. Elon would be adored by the public and have soft power greater than most world leaders. Instead, Elon has apparently chosen to act against his rational self interest and ruin his reputation, harm his companies, and hinder his goals. The man is clearly mentally ill.

Agree with you first paragraph. Great analogy. My favorite uncle from my childhood fell down the Fox News, conservative talk radio rabbit hole. It stinks. He say outlandish things, borderline racist comments, often for shock value, at family gatherings. I’ve lost a little admiration for my uncle, but he’s still a good person, who has done a tremendous amount of good in the world.

While Elon may be suffering from mental illness, you don’t have to be mentally ill to fall down the right-wing (or less common left-wing) rabbit hole and let your ego get the better of you.

I think Tesla's need to advertise has very little to do with Elon’s behavior. Bigger factor is that all the true believers, who do their own EV research, previous LEAF owners, etc. have already bought Teslas and likely convinced some friends and family to do the same. For Tesla to steadily increase demand to meet ever growing production, Tesla needs to embark on a public education campaign. The average American car buyer doesn’t know Tesla makes the safest cars on the road, that you can recharge in 15 minutes, or that you can buy a Tesla for under $40,000 or less than the average car sale price in America today. Vast majority of car buyers aren’t going to care about Elon’s tweets once they understand the value proposition of owning a Tesla EV.

I also don’t agree that most politicians are unwilling to work with him. Texas governor Ken Paxton was at Tesla’s ground breaking ceremony for their Corpus Christi lithium refinery. I believe that Elon’s turn to the right, was brought about by Biden’s refusal to even say the word Tesla for the first year or two of his administration and because Biden heaped false praise on GM and its CEO Mary Barra for bringing about the EV revolution. Biden did all this to appease the auto unions (Tesla isn’t a union shop).

Elon has since met with Biden and routinely meets with heads of state, including French President Marcon (sp) just last week. Tesla is too big for politicians to ignore or to actively seek to hurt any longer. Tesla employees 130,000 world wide and generates tremendous tax revenue. Pols can set-up speed bumps (tax EVs at the state level and enact protectionist measures for ICE dealerships), but Tesla is now in the too big to fail camp.

Bottom line,  I think the impacts of Elon’s twitter antics are over-stated. The effect on Tesla sales is not zero and may be significant (based on anecdotal evidence) here in the US, but has little to no effect on sales in the rest of the world. Confronted with the value proposition, most of the never Tesla crowd will act in their own best interest (financial and safety).

[jnw]

Anyways, I've shared what was on my mind whether or not I felt it was a good investment; I won't talk about it anymore. It gives me anxiety to have upset people.

Don't lie about what I said.  Quote where I said what you claimed.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Anyways, I've shared what was on my mind whether or not I felt it was a good investment; I won't talk about it anymore. It gives me anxiety to have upset people.

Don't lie about what I said.  Quote where I said what you claimed.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I understood your factually incorrect statement just fine - but you were wrong.

And I'm saddened that I upset you but: You made a statement that he didn't invest in politics, and I explained that you were overlooking the $44B he spent on twitter.

Don't lie about what I said.  Quote where I said what you claimed.

[jnw]

Okay well let's just agree to disagree okay? I don't want to continue going on about this. It's giving me anxiety. I've said what I felt I needed to say answering the OPs question.

BTW: You misunderstand what I meant when I said "sorry for the misunderstanding". I said that b/c I didn't understand why you blew up on me claiming I was dramatic, so I presumed you were upset about my response of Elon buying twitter.  You expressed that you weren't upset by it so I apologized for misunderstanding. (But in reality you do seem upset about from what you wrote about it in your last post.)

[Valley of Plenty]

Okay well let's just agree to disagree okay? I don't want to continue going on about this. It's giving me anxiety. I've said what I felt I needed to say answering the OPs question.

EDIT: You misunderstand what I said when I said "sorry for the misunderstanding". I said that b/c I didn't understand why you blew up on me claiming I was dramatic, so I presumed you were upset about my response of Elon buying twitter.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic here but I do want to make an observation

This is about the 4th or 5th thread I've seen where you've become anxious/upset/otherwise bothered by a string of dialogue, yet you always seem to insist on continuing to engage with it (even after saying numerous times about how much you don't want to continue engaging with it)

Perhaps if a topic or discussion is having such a profound negative impact on your emotional wellbeing, you should just stop paying attention to it. You do not have to respond to everything that is said to you on the internet. You do not always have to get one more word in. You can in fact say "I have said all I wish to say on this topic and will no longer be responding to it" and then no matter what anyone else says in response, you can simply... not respond. It isn't in bad taste to do so and doesn't mean you've "lost" - as if anyone really wins or loses in the vast majority of internet disagreements. If you find yourself in a room breathing toxic air, and the door to leave is unlocked, it is better to leave the room than to languish on the floor lamenting about how much your lungs hurt from breathing the toxic air.

Similarly, in regards to your comments about Elon's acquisition of Twitter and subsequent remarks there, you do not actually have to use that platform. Or hell, even if you absolutely insist on spending time and energy on twitter for some reason, you can just... block Elon's account, and then you won't have to see any of his awful, dystopian overlord tweets. Indeed, almost everything you see and engage with online is 100% at your discretion. Very little of it, if any, is actually required. You don't have to pay attention to anything that Elon or anyone else says or does online. It's really not important. At all.

You may of course approach the Pandora's Box that is the internet superhighway however you desire, but it would be my personal recommendation that if something or someone online upsets you, you should just stop paying attention to it. You will find the internet to be a much less stressful place that way.