Author Topic: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?  (Read 11203 times)

phil22

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2017, 08:12:52 PM »
the problem is that coinbase lies at the intersection of cryptocurrencies and the legacy banking system.  the legacy banking system requires you to provide lots of personal info.

you can avoid coinbase and the banking system by meeting someone in person and paying cash for bitcoins, but there are obviously risks there as well.  and if you do that, it'll be harder to exchange back to government currency and pay taxes.  if you plan to never exchange your crypto coins back to gov't currency, and instead just spend it at merchants or craigslist transactions or whatever, then you'd probably be fine with coins purchased in-person.

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2017, 06:28:45 AM »
I decided to check out some crypocoins. Can buy several from Coinbase.com. Easy to set up account etc, all pleasant so far. Going to buy they charge 4% fee for credit card transaction! And something like 2% for bank transfer, each way! WTF? I know of few other (legit) financial transactions that have such horrendous fees. Weren't cryptos supposed to save us from the scummy rippoff banks?! This seems even worse.. That's not even to mention that the whole balance dropped a few percent within hours of buying.

Furthermore; in order to cash out you have to give your government ID and info. What's the point of an anarchist currency when the government can trance which is mine?!!

Bitcoin itself is capable of lower fees and non-identifying pseudo-anonymity characteristics. But exchanges are institutional organizations that must meet certain government regulations or they'd be shutdown by the government. Also, since they're a business, they must make money somehow to stay afloat.

If you want to purchase bitcoin without going through an exchange and giving up your identity, then you'll have to either give a service or good and be paid in bitcoin, mine for bitcoin, or purchase bitcoin from someone peer-to-peer. To facilitate the latter, you can use a website called LocalBitcoins that will connect you with other people selling bitcoin. However, you'll usually pay a little higher price premium for the additional anonymity it provides.

If you don't care about anonymity and you just care about not paying such a high fee, you can use GDAX which is a open market exchange where buyers and sellers meet. Fees are lower or non-existant depending on the trades you make. If you have a Coinbase account, then you also have a GDAX account (same company). I'd suggest making your trades on GDAX if you don't like the fees of Coinbase.

effigy98

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2017, 03:59:48 PM »
I just started with GDAX, and am enjoying the lower fees and more importantly, lower prices then my coinbase purchases.

Scandium

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2017, 12:35:13 PM »
I decided to check out some crypocoins. Can buy several from Coinbase.com. Easy to set up account etc, all pleasant so far. Going to buy they charge 4% fee for credit card transaction! And something like 2% for bank transfer, each way! WTF? I know of few other (legit) financial transactions that have such horrendous fees. Weren't cryptos supposed to save us from the scummy rippoff banks?! This seems even worse.. That's not even to mention that the whole balance dropped a few percent within hours of buying.

Furthermore; in order to cash out you have to give your government ID and info. What's the point of an anarchist currency when the government can trance which is mine?!!

Bitcoin itself is capable of lower fees and non-identifying pseudo-anonymity characteristics. But exchanges are institutional organizations that must meet certain government regulations or they'd be shutdown by the government. Also, since they're a business, they must make money somehow to stay afloat.

If you want to purchase bitcoin without going through an exchange and giving up your identity, then you'll have to either give a service or good and be paid in bitcoin, mine for bitcoin, or purchase bitcoin from someone peer-to-peer. To facilitate the latter, you can use a website called LocalBitcoins that will connect you with other people selling bitcoin. However, you'll usually pay a little higher price premium for the additional anonymity it provides.

If you don't care about anonymity and you just care about not paying such a high fee, you can use GDAX which is a open market exchange where buyers and sellers meet. Fees are lower or non-existant depending on the trades you make. If you have a Coinbase account, then you also have a GDAX account (same company). I'd suggest making your trades on GDAX if you don't like the fees of Coinbase.

The anonymity was kinda the point of BTC, at least IMO. I was thinking what if I need to flee the country quickly and avoid the (US) government. (Started after watching "making a murderer"). How do you take money with you? With >$10k cash at an airport you'll likely be pulled over in most places. I figured BTC could be an option. But if the government can see anytime you buy it then it's useless! Might as well be any regular (highly volatile) bank account. I struggle to see the point of BTC the more I look into it. I want libertarian freedom-money to buy drugs, hookers and assassins! I guess that is US dollar bills..

Sounds like peer-to-peer exchanges is the way to go. But bit of a hassle. And how easily could you exchange $100k+ worth of in a short amount of time? This might be the one case where gold is the best way to go..

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2017, 12:49:24 PM »
The anonymity was kinda the point of BTC, at least IMO. I was thinking what if I need to flee the country quickly and avoid the (US) government. (Started after watching "making a murderer"). How do you take money with you? With >$10k cash at an airport you'll likely be pulled over in most places. I figured BTC could be an option. But if the government can see anytime you buy it then it's useless! Might as well be any regular (highly volatile) bank account. I struggle to see the point of BTC the more I look into it. I want libertarian freedom-money to buy drugs, hookers and assassins! I guess that is US dollar bills..

Sounds like peer-to-peer exchanges is the way to go. But bit of a hassle. And how easily could you exchange $100k+ worth of in a short amount of time? This might be the one case where gold is the best way to go..

If you're fleeing the country, then what do you care about what the US government says? They can't take your bitcoin even if they know you have it. If you're fleeing the country, I'm assuming you're fleeing to a country that won't extradite you back.

Frankly, bitcoin is probably the best global option for fungibility of your wealth. You don't have to actually take anything with you at all. Therefore there is nothing to confiscate during an escape from the country. All your funds are stored on a globally accessible blockchain. Therefore you can then just access your funds once you arrive in the other country and either spend the bitcoin directly or exchange it for local currency.

Gold? How would you ever move gold out of the country? How would gold be treated any differently than any other asset or currency as you leave the country? Unless you have a private jet that you can escape in. Is the gold already stored in another country? That's still a ton of risk since it would still be difficult to move that to another country if you needed to in a hurry.

You can still purchase bitcoins through an online exchange that follows KYC/AML laws and then launder it easy enough. Laundering bitcoin and other crypto-currencies is extremely easy. Then you could just say you lost your bitcoin and were never received any capital gains on your purchase.

I fail to see how you fail to see how bitcoin is predominantly better at hiding money than other fiat currencies and assets are.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 12:51:04 PM by lifeanon269 »

Scandium

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2017, 01:05:58 PM »
The anonymity was kinda the point of BTC, at least IMO. I was thinking what if I need to flee the country quickly and avoid the (US) government. (Started after watching "making a murderer"). How do you take money with you? With >$10k cash at an airport you'll likely be pulled over in most places. I figured BTC could be an option. But if the government can see anytime you buy it then it's useless! Might as well be any regular (highly volatile) bank account. I struggle to see the point of BTC the more I look into it. I want libertarian freedom-money to buy drugs, hookers and assassins! I guess that is US dollar bills..

Sounds like peer-to-peer exchanges is the way to go. But bit of a hassle. And how easily could you exchange $100k+ worth of in a short amount of time? This might be the one case where gold is the best way to go..

If you're fleeing the country, then what do you care about what the US government says? They can't take your bitcoin even if they know you have it. If you're fleeing the country, I'm assuming you're fleeing to a country that won't extradite you back.

Frankly, bitcoin is probably the best global option for fungibility of your wealth. You don't have to actually take anything with you at all. Therefore there is nothing to confiscate during an escape from the country. All your funds are stored on a globally accessible blockchain. Therefore you can then just access your funds once you arrive in the other country and either spend the bitcoin directly or exchange it for local currency.

Gold? How would you ever move gold out of the country? How would gold be treated any differently than any other asset or currency as you leave the country? Unless you have a private jet that you can escape in. Is the gold already stored in another country? That's still a ton of risk since it would still be difficult to move that to another country if you needed to in a hurry.

You can still purchase bitcoins through an online exchange that follows KYC/AML laws and then launder it easy enough. Laundering bitcoin and other crypto-currencies is extremely easy. Then you could just say you lost your bitcoin and were never received any capital gains on your purchase.

I fail to see how you fail to see how bitcoin is predominantly better at hiding money than other fiat currencies and assets are.

My assumption was that since my ID is tied to coinbase they would shut down my account, or at least be able to trace the BTC. I'm a bit unclear how it works, but assume that if I then cash out somewhere else they could trace it. But yes if I'm in a place with no extradition they couldn't do anything about it. It is likely thought that a similar exchange in that country would also abide by the same ID rules and getting BTC>cash would be hard. Bitcoin is basically part of the global money system, with all the same rules/restrictions.

I don't have that much wealth, so gold plan was to buy some pieces of ~$30k-50k jewelry and wear/pack it through customs. Nothing totally unusual about that, and can even be hard to tell a $50 watch from a $10k one.

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2017, 01:26:00 PM »
My assumption was that since my ID is tied to coinbase they would shut down my account, or at least be able to trace the BTC. I'm a bit unclear how it works, but assume that if I then cash out somewhere else they could trace it. But yes if I'm in a place with no extradition they couldn't do anything about it. It is likely thought that a similar exchange in that country would also abide by the same ID rules and getting BTC>cash would be hard. Bitcoin is basically part of the global money system, with all the same rules/restrictions.

I don't have that much wealth, so gold plan was to buy some pieces of ~$30k-50k jewelry and wear/pack it through customs. Nothing totally unusual about that, and can even be hard to tell a $50 watch from a $10k one.

Well the best practice is to generally not store your bitcoin on the exchange since you generally don't own the private key to your bitcoin there anyway. The saying goes "Your keys, your bitcoin. Not your keys, not your bitcoin."

So once you purchase your bitcoin on the exchange, then just move your bitcoin to a private wallet where you own your keys. Now nobody, no organization, no government could ever steal your bitcoin from you.

They'd be able to trace the transactions you just did, but if you launder the bitcoin it becomes infinitely more difficult. You could also easily exchange bitcoin for a more anonymous currency (monero) and then just exchange it back again for bitcoin to a new address. But even if you don't launder it, if you're in another country that won't extradite you, what do you care if the USA can trace the bitcoin on the blockchain?

Yes, it is likely that the exchanges in any foreign country will also follow KYC/AML rules, but if that new country becomes your home country, what do you care if the main goal was to get it out of the original country?

Also, if the gold plan was to use jewelry, I'd be more afraid of losing my money through the inaccuracy of jewelry valuations when you arrive to your new location than losing your money to the government. You may say that it is a $50k watch, but if the local pawn shop is only willing to give you $20k for that watch then you just lost a ton of your money. You won't have that problem with bitcoin. Generally 1 bitcoin will have roughly the same value anywhere in the world.

Scandium

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2017, 01:50:03 PM »
My assumption was that since my ID is tied to coinbase they would shut down my account, or at least be able to trace the BTC. I'm a bit unclear how it works, but assume that if I then cash out somewhere else they could trace it. But yes if I'm in a place with no extradition they couldn't do anything about it. It is likely thought that a similar exchange in that country would also abide by the same ID rules and getting BTC>cash would be hard. Bitcoin is basically part of the global money system, with all the same rules/restrictions.

I don't have that much wealth, so gold plan was to buy some pieces of ~$30k-50k jewelry and wear/pack it through customs. Nothing totally unusual about that, and can even be hard to tell a $50 watch from a $10k one.

Well the best practice is to generally not store your bitcoin on the exchange since you generally don't own the private key to your bitcoin there anyway. The saying goes "Your keys, your bitcoin. Not your keys, not your bitcoin."

So once you purchase your bitcoin on the exchange, then just move your bitcoin to a private wallet where you own your keys. Now nobody, no organization, no government could ever steal your bitcoin from you.

They'd be able to trace the transactions you just did, but if you launder the bitcoin it becomes infinitely more difficult. You could also easily exchange bitcoin for a more anonymous currency (monero) and then just exchange it back again for bitcoin to a new address. But even if you don't launder it, if you're in another country that won't extradite you, what do you care if the USA can trace the bitcoin on the blockchain?

Yes, it is likely that the exchanges in any foreign country will also follow KYC/AML rules, but if that new country becomes your home country, what do you care if the main goal was to get it out of the original country?

Also, if the gold plan was to use jewelry, I'd be more afraid of losing my money through the inaccuracy of jewelry valuations when you arrive to your new location than losing your money to the government. You may say that it is a $50k watch, but if the local pawn shop is only willing to give you $20k for that watch then you just lost a ton of your money. You won't have that problem with bitcoin. Generally 1 bitcoin will have roughly the same value anywhere in the world.

Ok, I read some about "offline"/private wallets now. Looks interesting, need to check more. Sounds like that could be an option.

Issue in new country would be exchanging back to real (i.e. usable) currency. If they all require gov reporting the long arm of the US treasury could shut down any account with my name. They were able to bully Swiss banks to reveal their customers after all.. Any country that works with, holds etc USD is susceptible. Would likely have to use peer-to-peer on black market exchanges.

Yes there are certainly problems with moving and selling jewelry. The cost/loss would likely be high. 

effigy98

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2017, 02:27:31 PM »
Treat money on an exchange as something that will eventually be stolen, lost, hacked, regulated out of existence, etc.

Best bet is to print out a paper wallet or get a hardware wallet like a ledger which is pretty user friendly.
https://www.ledgerwallet.com/products/ledger-nano-s

maizefolk

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2017, 03:26:58 PM »
+1 to the feedback already given. If you're leaving your money at an exchange, you aren't going to get many of the benefits of bitcoins. For that you have to move them off the exchange, to one or more wallets where you control the private keys. You can do several hops to new wallets if you like. Or use coin tumbling services (although recent evidence suggests these may not be as secure as you like). Or even a detour from bitcoin to monero or zcash and then back to bitcoin, which breaks the trail entirely.

Your post highlights a lot of real, practical issues with using bitcoin today. From a theoretical perspective a lot of these are really issues with the interface between bitcoin and dollars, and I'd say the costs and hassles of the USD:BTC interface sound about equivalent to the USD:EUR or USD:RMB interfaces, so the problems are more a result of the dollar side than the bitcoin side. But I realize that's not any actual practical help. *shrug*

Scandium

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2017, 12:51:28 PM »
Your post highlights a lot of real, practical issues with using bitcoin today. From a theoretical perspective a lot of these are really issues with the interface between bitcoin and dollars, and I'd say the costs and hassles of the USD:BTC interface sound about equivalent to the USD:EUR or USD:RMB interfaces, so the problems are more a result of the dollar side than the bitcoin side. But I realize that's not any actual practical help. *shrug*

Pretty much. You can't use cryptocoins to buy food or pay taxes. So pretty useless for day-to-day use. IMO they're just a novelty for would-be anarchist and libertarians, or speculators. It's like "investing" in gold; it has no inherent value. Except this doesn't even exist and can be taken by russian hackers. Cool! ..

To use them (to survive, not just buy stuff on Newegg) you have to exchange for USD and the you're into the traceable monetary system anyway.

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2017, 01:32:13 PM »
Pretty much. You can't use cryptocoins to buy food or pay taxes. So pretty useless for day-to-day use. IMO they're just a novelty for would-be anarchist and libertarians, or speculators. It's like "investing" in gold; it has no inherent value. Except this doesn't even exist and can be taken by russian hackers. Cool! ..

To use them (to survive, not just buy stuff on Newegg) you have to exchange for USD and the you're into the traceable monetary system anyway.

I'd argue that it isn't bitcoin's purpose to be used as an anonymous everyday currency.

First off, if you're looking to use bitcoin to pay taxes, then taxes are always associated with an individual or business, so what does it matter if you are forced to go through an exchange to convert BTC to USD to pay the taxes owed associated with my identification with a given government?

I think bitcoin's ultimate purpose is to facilitate global exchange of value without requiring a third-party. It is a broad definition that has benefits that extend beyond minor use-cases. At the moment, if you want to send money to someone globally, it absolutely requires the use of a trusted third party and often more than one and often requires the conversion between foreign currencies. The fact that is necessary gives these third-parties a lot of control and the ability to charge substantial fees to do so.

Bitcoin is global and decentralized. There may come a time where you can purchase food with bitcoin locally, but its main use and biggest benefit comes from its use on the global stage. The more global our economic system becomes, the bigger the need for something like bitcoin.

With that also comes freedom. That means I can just pick up today and leave and go somewhere else anywhere in the world and not have to worry about transferring any funds of any kind from one institution to another to ensure that my wealth comes with me. That's an immense amount of power and is a power that is extended to everyone, not just the wealthy.

So I think bitcoin's greatest strengths come not from its pseudo-anonymity, but from the freedoms it provides. I don't think this freedom of wealth is a quality of bitcoin that should be overlooked. The refugees of the future won't need to worry as much about hitting the reset button on their wealth when fleeing.

Scandium

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2017, 01:47:04 PM »
Pretty much. You can't use cryptocoins to buy food or pay taxes. So pretty useless for day-to-day use. IMO they're just a novelty for would-be anarchist and libertarians, or speculators. It's like "investing" in gold; it has no inherent value. Except this doesn't even exist and can be taken by russian hackers. Cool! ..

To use them (to survive, not just buy stuff on Newegg) you have to exchange for USD and the you're into the traceable monetary system anyway.

I'd argue that it isn't bitcoin's purpose to be used as an anonymous everyday currency.

First off, if you're looking to use bitcoin to pay taxes, then taxes are always associated with an individual or business, so what does it matter if you are forced to go through an exchange to convert BTC to USD to pay the taxes owed associated with my identification with a given government?

I think bitcoin's ultimate purpose is to facilitate global exchange of value without requiring a third-party. It is a broad definition that has benefits that extend beyond minor use-cases. At the moment, if you want to send money to someone globally, it absolutely requires the use of a trusted third party and often more than one and often requires the conversion between foreign currencies. The fact that is necessary gives these third-parties a lot of control and the ability to charge substantial fees to do so.

Bitcoin is global and decentralized. There may come a time where you can purchase food with bitcoin locally, but its main use and biggest benefit comes from its use on the global stage. The more global our economic system becomes, the bigger the need for something like bitcoin.

With that also comes freedom. That means I can just pick up today and leave and go somewhere else anywhere in the world and not have to worry about transferring any funds of any kind from one institution to another to ensure that my wealth comes with me. That's an immense amount of power and is a power that is extended to everyone, not just the wealthy.

So I think bitcoin's greatest strengths come not from its pseudo-anonymity, but from the freedoms it provides. I don't think this freedom of wealth is a quality of bitcoin that should be overlooked. The refugees of the future won't need to worry as much about hitting the reset button on their wealth when fleeing.

Sorry, not convinced. How is moving the currency exchange from, say USD>EUR over to USD>BTC>EUR any better? Like you say one can't use BTC for everyday transactions, so you'd need to convert it to the local currency at some point. And you get paid in local currency, so you'd have to convert up to BTC first. Aren't you just adding a step in the conversion process? And a step with a 2-4% fee in each direction! How is this an improvement? I've used Transferwise to convert and pay a fraction of a percent, and it's a single conversion. Not to mention that BTC could drop 20%+ in value during the conversion. I know of few other legit currencies that are that volatile.

not have to worry about transferring any funds of any kind from one institution to another to ensure that my wealth comes with me.
How does this work? Do you keep all your wealth in BTC at all times? Personally my wealth is in Vanguard funds, since that earns a return.. So I'd need to liquidate, then convert to BTC. Then convert back? Everything is online now. I could flee to country X, set up an account, then log into my old bank in the US and transfer it all over. (unless you're fleeing the law as I mentioned above). I don't see this as a huge problem.. Maybe if you're in some failing society, but then I don't foresee how buying BTC will be easy either.

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2017, 02:23:42 PM »
Sorry, not convinced. How is moving the currency exchange from, say USD>EUR over to USD>BTC>EUR any better? Like you say one can't use BTC for everyday transactions, so you'd need to convert it to the local currency at some point. And you get paid in local currency, so you'd have to convert up to BTC first. Aren't you just adding a step in the conversion process? And a step with a 2-4% fee in each direction! How is this an improvement? I've used Transferwise to convert and pay a fraction of a percent, and it's a single conversion. Not to mention that BTC could drop 20%+ in value during the conversion. I know of few other legit currencies that are that volatile.

How does this work? Do you keep all your wealth in BTC at all times? Personally my wealth is in Vanguard funds, since that earns a return.. So I'd need to liquidate, then convert to BTC. Then convert back? Everything is online now. I could flee to country X, set up an account, then log into my old bank in the US and transfer it all over. (unless you're fleeing the law as I mentioned above). I don't see this as a huge problem.. Maybe if you're in some failing society, but then I don't foresee how buying BTC will be easy either.

I guess I'm not following what argument you're trying to make anymore. Originally you argued that you didn't like the fees that the exchange (Coinbase) was issuing, so I recommended GDAX which charges zero to negligible fees (most Exchanges have lower fees than Coinbase). Then you argued that you didn't like that ID was required to set up an account when I then showed you that you can set up an offline wallet without and various ways you can launder it easy enough and the possibility of using P2P exchanges. You then argued that you'd likely simply use jewelry as a form of monetary transmission when I argued that valuation would likely take more from you than any government and how a bitcoin offline wallet would be a good solution for that. You then claim that bitcoin is too volatile and can fluctuate in price even though you'd be willing to accept a much larger price fluctuation with regard to jewelry valuation. You then argued about needing to sneak the money out of the country and now you're arguing about how you could easily just go to another country and set up a simple bank transfer...

I'm not so sure it is worth trying to go back and forth on varying points with you because at this point it is clear you have a bias that prevents you from seeing all the points I've laid out for you so far. I feel like the varying arguments you've brought up makes it seem like you're doing so just for the sake of dragging the argument out to no end.

No, I do not keep all my wealth in bitcoin. Like you have I funds stored in many other investment accounts. The point I was making though was that with whatever wealth someone has stored in bitcoin, that wealth is global and it is stored on the decentralized blockchain, not in some account that is controlled by a third-party that requires your trust.

Scandium

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2017, 02:36:59 PM »
Sorry, not convinced. How is moving the currency exchange from, say USD>EUR over to USD>BTC>EUR any better? Like you say one can't use BTC for everyday transactions, so you'd need to convert it to the local currency at some point. And you get paid in local currency, so you'd have to convert up to BTC first. Aren't you just adding a step in the conversion process? And a step with a 2-4% fee in each direction! How is this an improvement? I've used Transferwise to convert and pay a fraction of a percent, and it's a single conversion. Not to mention that BTC could drop 20%+ in value during the conversion. I know of few other legit currencies that are that volatile.

How does this work? Do you keep all your wealth in BTC at all times? Personally my wealth is in Vanguard funds, since that earns a return.. So I'd need to liquidate, then convert to BTC. Then convert back? Everything is online now. I could flee to country X, set up an account, then log into my old bank in the US and transfer it all over. (unless you're fleeing the law as I mentioned above). I don't see this as a huge problem.. Maybe if you're in some failing society, but then I don't foresee how buying BTC will be easy either.

I guess I'm not following what argument you're trying to make anymore. Originally you argued that you didn't like the fees that the exchange (Coinbase) was issuing, so I recommended GDAX which charges zero to negligible fees (most Exchanges have lower fees than Coinbase). Then you argued that you didn't like that ID was required to set up an account when I then showed you that you can set up an offline wallet without and various ways you can launder it easy enough and the possibility of using P2P exchanges. You then argued that you'd likely simply use jewelry as a form of monetary transmission when I argued that valuation would likely take more from you than any government and how a bitcoin offline wallet would be a good solution for that. You then claim that bitcoin is too volatile and can fluctuate in price even though you'd be willing to accept a much larger price fluctuation with regard to jewelry valuation. You then argued about needing to sneak the money out of the country and now you're arguing about how you could easily just go to another country and set up a simple bank transfer...

I'm not so sure it is worth trying to go back and forth on varying points with you because at this point it is clear you have a bias that prevents you from seeing all the points I've laid out for you so far. I feel like the varying arguments you've brought up makes it seem like you're doing so just for the sake of dragging the argument out to no end.

No, I do not keep all my wealth in bitcoin. Like you have I funds stored in many other investment accounts. The point I was making though was that with whatever wealth someone has stored in bitcoin, that wealth is global and it is stored on the decentralized blockchain, not in some account that is controlled by a third-party that requires your trust.

Those were separate discussions. You changed the subject to the purpose of BTC, other than my flee-the-law fever dream. I was kinda done with that so ok, i'd like to hear how BTC can be used legally. You said:

"I think bitcoin's ultimate purpose is to facilitate global exchange of value without requiring a third-party. "

Intriguing. But like I said I don't see how it helps. I'm not being difficult. It's just every time I go through how BTC will help/improve this or that I can't get it to work. Maybe I'm just too stupid? Help me understand.. So you mention a fee-free exchange, cool that helps. But how is it not just an extra conversion step?

Assuming you make your salary in USD, you invest in vanguard (in USD). How can bitcoin help you as a global currency? In what scenarios is it worthwhile?

maizefolk

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2017, 03:42:52 PM »
Your post highlights a lot of real, practical issues with using bitcoin today. From a theoretical perspective a lot of these are really issues with the interface between bitcoin and dollars, and I'd say the costs and hassles of the USD:BTC interface sound about equivalent to the USD:EUR or USD:RMB interfaces, so the problems are more a result of the dollar side than the bitcoin side. But I realize that's not any actual practical help. *shrug*

Pretty much. You can't use cryptocoins to buy food or pay taxes. So pretty useless for day-to-day use. IMO they're just a novelty for would-be anarchist and libertarians, or speculators. It's like "investing" in gold; it has no inherent value. Except this doesn't even exist and can be taken by russian hackers. Cool! ..

To use them (to survive, not just buy stuff on Newegg) you have to exchange for USD and the you're into the traceable monetary system anyway.

Well I'd argue the difference is that there's no technical reason bitcoin (or other cryptocurrencies) couldn't be used to buy food or pay taxes, it's just a question of adoption. That makes it fascinating to me from a nerdy perspective, particularly because adoption for paying for actual stuff does appear to be growing (more outside North America than inside) but then again I'm not pushing buying cryptocurrencies as an investment.

If anything I'm pushing learning about the technology behind cryptocurrencies as an investment.

phil22

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2017, 04:27:28 PM »
Assuming you make your salary in USD, you invest in vanguard (in USD). How can bitcoin help you as a global currency? In what scenarios is it worthwhile?

this is off-topic for a thread about mining, but you're right bitcoin isn't "useful" for those of us in the US who plan to continue using the existing financial system the way it is.  putting US dollars into Vanguard online works well enough.  cryptocurrencies will allow other developments in money.  as an analogy: cryptocurrencies are to money as the internet is to newspapers.

for some present-day uses/scenarios (especially for people outside of the US/Europe): there was a thread about this.

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it worth it checking out investing in crypto-mining?
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2017, 09:26:34 AM »
Those were separate discussions. You changed the subject to the purpose of BTC, other than my flee-the-law fever dream. I was kinda done with that so ok, i'd like to hear how BTC can be used legally. You said:

"I think bitcoin's ultimate purpose is to facilitate global exchange of value without requiring a third-party. "

Intriguing. But like I said I don't see how it helps. I'm not being difficult. It's just every time I go through how BTC will help/improve this or that I can't get it to work. Maybe I'm just too stupid? Help me understand.. So you mention a fee-free exchange, cool that helps. But how is it not just an extra conversion step?

Assuming you make your salary in USD, you invest in vanguard (in USD). How can bitcoin help you as a global currency? In what scenarios is it worthwhile?

Rather than me trying to explain the importance of bitcoin (which I'm probably not doing the best at), here is an excellent article from a while back by Marc Andreesen that covers the topic very well. I think it is an excellent read on why bitcoin is such a breakthrough in technology and the benefits it can provide society.

https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/01/21/why-bitcoin-matters/