Author Topic: Is it too late [bitcoin]?  (Read 159372 times)

maizefolk

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #300 on: December 10, 2017, 02:16:54 PM »
I have some thoughts on bitcoin. First it is a currency, but no one here that I have seen (just skimming through the posts, if I missed one) has used it as such. In the press, there hasn't been any discussion on what large numbers of people are purchasing with it. I am sure it has happened, "businesses accept it", though at what level I am not sure. As someone posted here, how would a business price something in bitcoin with such swings in volatility?

Secondly, why would anyone use bitcoin as opposed to dollars or any other currency? The plus is anonymity. That is a good thing only if you are trying to hide what you are doing. I bet the Norks, Chinese, and Russians love it. For the average person, is hiding what you are doing that important day-to-day?

*Waves* Hi there! I've used bitcoin to actually pay for goods online.

I wasn't trying to be anonymous,* but the very first time I bought bitcoin I was ordering something from India, from a company I hadn't heard of before, and I didn't feel at all comfortable giving them my credit card info and setting up a bank wire for a $60 purchase seemed ridiculous.

Like paypal, the nice thing about using bitcoin to process payments is that it's "push" driven, rather than "pull" driven, so you can do business with someone without having to trust them to A) not decide to bill you again later without your consent, B) use appropriate data security so no one else can steal your credit card info and run around buying all sorts of stuff on your account. Unlike paypal, transactions have the potential be be very low cost, and you don't have to worry about paypal draining bank accounts you have linked to you paypal account if someone does a chargeback (or various other  horror stories). At the time, transaction fees were on the order of $0.05, and the whole thing went quite smoothly.

Right now the fees are ridiculously high, and I agree with you that the rapid run up in price has brought in a lot of people who are buying bitcoin in the hopes of making a lot of money rather than because they're actually needing to use it to buy and sell things.

*And bitcoin is not a particularly good way to stay anonymous. If you were actually getting into the drug trade I assume you'd pick a currency like monero instead.

surfhb

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #301 on: December 10, 2017, 02:24:02 PM »
I have some thoughts on bitcoin. First it is a currency, but no one here that I have seen (just skimming through the posts, if I missed one) has used it as such. In the press, there hasn't been any discussion on what large numbers of people are purchasing with it. I am sure it has happened, "businesses accept it", though at what level I am not sure. As someone posted here, how would a business price something in bitcoin with such swings in volatility?

Secondly, why would anyone use bitcoin as opposed to dollars or any other currency? The plus is anonymity. That is a good thing only if you are trying to hide what you are doing. I bet the Norks, Chinese, and Russians love it. For the average person, is hiding what you are doing that important day-to-day?

*Waves* Hi there! I've used bitcoin to actually pay for goods online.

I wasn't trying to be anonymous,* but the very first time I bought bitcoin I was ordering something from India, from a company I hadn't heard of before, and I didn't feel at all comfortable giving them my credit card info and setting up a bank wire for a $60 purchase seemed ridiculous.

Like paypal, the nice thing about using bitcoin to process payments is that it's "push" driven, rather than "pull" driven, so you can do business with someone without having to trust them to A) not decide to bill you again later without your consent, B) use appropriate data security so no one else can steal your credit card info and run around buying all sorts of stuff on your account. Unlike paypal, transactions have the potential be be very low cost, and you don't have to worry about paypal draining bank accounts you have linked to you paypal account if someone does a chargeback (or various other  horror stories). At the time, transaction fees were on the order of $0.05, and the whole thing went quite smoothly.

Right now the fees are ridiculously high, and I agree with you that the rapid run up in price has brought in a lot of people who are buying bitcoin in the hopes of making a lot of money rather than because they're actually needing to use it to buy and sell things.

*And bitcoin is not a particularly good way to stay anonymous. If you were actually getting into the drug trade I assume you'd pick a currency like monero instead.

Not a very good reason to buy a product with bitcoin IMO.   First off you are not accountable if someone steals your account and secondly, your product is insured if you have an issue with the vendor.     

BTW....NO ONE should ever link their bank account to anything online OR even use one for purchases.   I learned that lesson before.   Use a credit card!!!  Its a no brainer.     No way in hell I'm going to give a vendor my hard earned money within an anonymous environment!
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 02:28:19 PM by surfhb »

maizefolk

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #302 on: December 10, 2017, 02:50:46 PM »
Not a very good reason to buy a product with bitcoin IMO.   First off you are not accountable if someone steals your account and secondly, your product is insured if you have an issue with the vendor.     

BTW....NO ONE should ever link their bank account to anything online OR even use one for purchases.   I learned that lesson before.   Use a credit card!!!  Its a no brainer.     No way in hell I'm going to give a vendor my hard earned money within an anonymous environment!

I definitely agree with you that credit card > bank account for online purchases.

In my observation cleaning up the mess left behind by credit card/identity theft is a huge pain and hassle even if the loses are ultimately covered by someone other than you. I'd much rather work with "push" based methods for online payments instead of "pull" and never have to go through the hassle in the first place. I acknowledge other people with weight the same pros and cons and come to the opposite conclusion.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you to replace your credit card spending with bitcoin spending. But if the question is whether anyone in this thread has used bitcoin to make purchases, the answer is "yes."


aspiringnomad

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #303 on: December 10, 2017, 07:35:38 PM »
It's in full mania mode now, so the end game (collapse) is likely near.
Don't forget the old saying that the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.


My typical gauge for determining if a correction/collapse is coming is to watch and see if the particular investment is discussed on Christmas day at the gathering of my extended family.* If bitcoin is not discussed two weeks from now, then my prediction is that bitcoin is good until 2019.

**I purposefully won't be bringing up the topic to see if someone else does.

Oh, this old bubble indicator is already flashing like crazy for me personally. Besides being a frequent topic of conversation amongst those with some knowledge of it, two of my older friends who have absolutely zero interest in new technology and/or serious investments have independently registered new Coinbase accounts in the past week. One jumped right into the craze and just bought some BTC despite my warning that they're playing with fire. Neither has any interest in cryptocurrency other than to try to sell it to a greater fool. What strikes me as really odd is that these are among the last people I would have expected to jump on the crypto bandwagon. These two happened to ask me my thoughts about it, assuming that I had some knowledge of it and then they largely viewed my skepticism with their own (uninformed) skepticism about my views. I can't imagine how many millions more are doing the same and I also can't imagine it'll end well for many.

Enigma

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #304 on: December 12, 2017, 02:17:38 AM »
For argument's sake, lets call it a Fad (possibly even a pyramid scheme)...  It has value but for the most part you are now seeing Bitcoin everywhere in the news.  As of Monday (yesterday), it is now being traded on the futures market.  2014 the US IRS said gains were taxable so the government makes their cut on the profits.  Every time a chain is completed via mining a little more bitcoin makes itself into the market (It costs money, electricity, and time to produce).

That aside it is limited.  Unlike currency printing there is a finite amount.  Even with the decimal points the lowest denomination is a satoshi (0.00000001 bitcoin).  If one satoshi becomes worth 1 cent ($.01) then one bitcoin becomes worth $1M.  It will take 100 years before all the bitcoin is completely mined.  By design more cannot be created.

"The combined value of the US paper currency printed each day is thought to be about $900 million"

Pros:
Governments cannot control the value of bitcoin.  They can try to regulate the currency exchanges but hundreds if not thousands of computers worldwide agree to each new block entered into the Bitchain.  Kind of reminds me of how governments try to take down WikiLeaks.  The issue is everyone started mirroring the site.  Causing the site to always be up.

If you don't trust your country's banking system (no FDIC/SPIC), the current government (mass corruption), local currency (over inflated/worthless), or a million other reasons then the global cryptocurrency has value.

So after doing weeks of research lots of youtube videos for and against, I have decided to go the route of investing $3k into where the market currently is.  Gives me a better chance to see it from an inside perspective rather than speculate.  Plus if one day, CryptoCurrencies completely replace the paper currency of the US (not money due to no gold standard since 1971).

Indexer

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #305 on: December 13, 2017, 05:21:48 AM »
Report back when I can get FDIC backed Bitcoin accounts to store my crap in.  None of the Bitcoin infrastructure has ever been tested against a bank run.  Well, actually Mt. Gox did and it failed miserably.

FDIC does not insure against fraud though (which is what the discussion was about). I agree that FDIC insurance would be valuable in the event of institutional insolvency. But, again, that is not a critique against bitcoin, that's a critique against the institutions around it. We may very well see a day where FDIC/NCUA type insurances are extended to bitcoin accounts as well.

FDIC doesn't protect against fraud. It does protect against the institution going bankrupt. The institution protects against fraud. Therefore, if the fraud was bad enough that the institution became insolvent FDIC would step in to reimburse depositors.

I don't see bitcoin getting FDIC insurance or anything similar. SIPC, which protects investment accounts, has already said they will not reimburse stolen bitcoins. They also have ponzi scheme and fraud alerts on bitcoin, but that's another conversation. FDIC and SIPC have strings attached. Banks and investment firms have know your customer laws, anti-money laundering laws, and suspicious transaction reports. I highly doubt any government would extend the same protection to bitcoin when bitcoin's appeal is that it gets around those laws.




If we are going to keep calling bitcoin a currency I have an important question. Is anyone using it to buy things? I hear about companies accepting it, but does anyone actually use it? I know there are illegal transactions it is used for, but it's current price can only be justified if people think it will go mainstream. Is it being used for regular legal transactions? I imagine there are a few, but do we have any data on how frequently?

Transaction fees: I've read in multiple places of late that a transaction can take a week unless you pay $20 for priority processing. I thought bitcoin was supposed to be faster and cheaper. $20 for a same day transaction... that's the international wire fee at many major banks. Credit card and ACH transactions, what bitcoin should be competing against, clear much faster and much cheaper.

I've heard about how it is easier for international transfers, but I know someone who tried to do that and the receiving company would only do the transaction if the buyer insured the bitcoin against market fluctuations. They didn't want to agree to $200k in bitcoins and then have the bitcoins drop in value to $160k before they could sell them. The buyer didn't want to insure the bitcoin either, too much risk. They opted for a bank wire transfer. Fee was probably $20...

GuitarStv

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #306 on: December 13, 2017, 07:45:14 AM »
If we are going to keep calling bitcoin a currency I have an important question. Is anyone using it to buy things?

No, not really.  Aside from drug/child prostitute related uses, there's really only disadvantage for most people and companies in attempting to use bitcoin as a currency at the moment.  Data regarding frequency of uses of bitcoin to buy things is never going to be available because there's no record kept of what a bitcoin transaction is actually for.


Transaction fees: I've read in multiple places of late that a transaction can take a week unless you pay $20 for priority processing. I thought bitcoin was supposed to be faster and cheaper. $20 for a same day transaction... that's the international wire fee at many major banks. Credit card and ACH transactions, what bitcoin should be competing against, clear much faster and much cheaper.

I've heard about how it is easier for international transfers, but I know someone who tried to do that and the receiving company would only do the transaction if the buyer insured the bitcoin against market fluctuations. They didn't want to agree to $200k in bitcoins and then have the bitcoins drop in value to $160k before they could sell them. The buyer didn't want to insure the bitcoin either, too much risk. They opted for a bank wire transfer. Fee was probably $20...

The behaviour you're describing is caused by the design of bitcoin.  The blockchain is the permanent record of all bitcoin transactions.  When you 'spend' a bitcoin, you say 'I want to transfer this bitcoin to XXX'.  Then you have to pay a fee and wait for this to be recorded on the blockchain.

Just including this information in a block on the blockchain isn't enough to guarantee that the transaction has been made (on average several times a day a single block from the blockchain becomes orphaned - which means that the record of transactions might not actually be kept).  Each block produced after the block that contains your transaction makes it less likely that your transaction will be orphaned and forgotten.  The current standard with bitcoin is to wait for at least six blocks after the transaction (so 7 blocks total) before you consider the transaction confirmed.  It is an average of 10 minutes per block to complete, but this number can grow or shrink depending on the hash power of the Bitcoin network.

A block handles about 2500 transactions.  I mentioned that you have to pay a fee to include your transaction in a block.  If you pay a bigger fee, you get higher in the queue to have your transaction happen.  If there are more transactions taking place than can fit in a single block, then you can choose to wait for the next block (or maybe the next block after that, or after that, etc.) for a lower price.  Bitcoin has recently become popular, so there are longer queues for transactions . . . so if you want to complete your transaction more quickly you have to shell out lots of money or you have to wait a long time.

zoltani

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #307 on: December 13, 2017, 09:18:16 AM »
I found this article "HOW TO MAKE A MINT: THE CRYPTOGRAPHY OF ANONYMOUS ELECTRONIC CASH" written by the NSA in 1996. It makes me question the who and why behind its creation.

http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.805/articles/money/nsamint/nsamint.htm



sherr

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #308 on: December 13, 2017, 09:53:07 AM »
I found this article "HOW TO MAKE A MINT: THE CRYPTOGRAPHY OF ANONYMOUS ELECTRONIC CASH" written by the NSA in 1996. It makes me question the who and why behind its creation.

I wouldn't read too much into it. No new technology springs from a void, they all are developments of previous years / decades worth of foundational work. The NSA is possibly the world's most expert organization on things related to cryptography, so it's completely unsurprising that they would have looked at stuff like this before.

sherr

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #309 on: December 13, 2017, 01:59:52 PM »
I wouldn't read too much into it. No new technology springs from a void, they all are developments of previous years / decades worth of foundational work. The NSA is possibly the world's most expert organization on things related to cryptography, so it's completely unsurprising that they would have looked at stuff like this before.

NSA had backdoor access (private key) to the early cryptography that was sold and used by businesses. This issue actually still prevails in today's infrastructure: (example) google controls the master key for gmail. Of course, blockchain with zero-proof resolves this (decentralized messaging), which would allow greater security for trade secrets.

I am not a crypto expert, but I don't think this response makes much sense. First of all because it doesn't seem to apply to anything we were talking about.

Secondly, Google knows about the contents of your GMail not because of any secret cryto backdoor, but because you are sending them unencrypted emails that they store in their database on their servers. You are using their application, of course they can look at it and see what's in it. You don't want them to? Okay, then pre-encrypt your message and copy the encrypted nonsense blob into GMail. Now they can't read it. They can still see the blob, but they won't understand what it says.

Yes it is known that the NSA had backdoored several crypto algorithms in several different ways. You can read about some of them starting here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency#Bypassing_encryption

It is also reasonably suspected that they have unknown-to-the-public tricks that weaken several others. And that's part of the point, they know more than anyone else. They are a thousand times smarter and sneakier than you and I put together. So it's almost literally impossible to tell what they can do and what is just rumor.

Blockchain / cryptocurrencies are no more immune than their underlying cryto algorithms. Certainly not from decentralized messaging, that's a minor speed bump to them not a roadblock. And as a non-crypto-expert it's not clear to me what zero-knowledge proofs have to do with anything. Nor does zero-knowledge proofs have anything really to do with decentralized messaging.

All that being said, just because the NSA published a paper 20 years ago that laid some of the groundwork for cryptocurrencies means nothing about the security or vulnerability of blockchain / cryptocurrencies. The NSA also has an interest in making sure strong crypto works so that no one else can spy on them. And banks don't want people to be able to steal from them, and software companies don't want to be at fault if software they sell to their customers ends up getting them hacked, etc. So there is a lot of work that goes into making sure that crypo algorithms actually are working as advertised, and presumably blockchain / cryptocurrencies would be using the best-available algorithms, not known-weak ones.

I could be wrong about everything and it could be that you know way more about this than I do, but I would caution people in general about just throwing around jargon and pretending it's a magic solution to a problem. Crypto is really hard and there are probably only tens of people worldwide who actually really truly know what they're talking about. If you're not one of them you basically have to trust that they're not missing something. But at the same time I don't have any reason to suspect that blockchain / cryptocurrencies are vulnerable to anything, and that article should not make anyone suspicious of anything either.

Edit: This is also why the FBI and anyone else who complains about why the government should have backdoors into crypto algorithms "for national security reasons" should be boo'd out of office. There is no such thing as a backdoor that only the "good guys" can use. Either crypto is strong and your bank transactions are secure and your blockchain works and your private messages are private and the website you are visiting is actually the real website it says it is, or it's not and it's only a matter of time before the "bad guys" figure out how to break it (if they havn't already). There is no in-between. Support politicians who support real crypto, literally the entire internet depends on it.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 02:09:55 PM by sherr »

ILikeDividends

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #310 on: December 13, 2017, 02:38:41 PM »
"Bitcoin plays a very small role as a payment system.  It is a highly speculative asset."

"It is not a stable source of value, and it doesn't constitute legal tender."

Quotes from outgoing fed chair, Janet Yellen, about two hours ago.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/13/investing/bitcoin-janet-yellen-federal-reserve/index.html

No doubt these remarks will not be regarded as surprising by many on this thread.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 02:43:07 PM by ILikeDividends »

thenextguy

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #311 on: December 13, 2017, 03:56:49 PM »
"Bitcoin plays a very small role as a payment system.  It is a highly speculative asset."

"It is not a stable source of value, and it doesn't constitute legal tender."

Quotes from outgoing fed chair, Janet Yellen, about two hours ago.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/13/investing/bitcoin-janet-yellen-federal-reserve/index.html

No doubt these remarks will not be regarded as surprising by many on this thread.

I don't really have much of an issue with her assessment. Seems pretty spot on to me and non-controversial.

talltexan

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #312 on: December 15, 2017, 07:03:37 AM »
Thank you for this comment about the Byzantine general. I found this useful article that really answers some of my skepticism about the Blockchain.

https://medium.com/@DebrajG/how-the-byzantine-general-sacked-the-castle-a-look-into-blockchain-370fe637502c

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #313 on: December 15, 2017, 10:04:40 AM »

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #314 on: December 15, 2017, 11:36:14 AM »
I just wanted to add some info to the discussion about "backdoors" with regard to bitcoin.

The only way anyone can ever spend bitcoin that you own is to be able to sign a transaction from an UTXO using the associated private key. Even if proof-of-work were compromised (51% attack), they would still need to be able to compose and sign a transaction with the private key associated with a UTXO. If you're not reusing bitcoin addresses after spending from them (which you shouldn't be), then you shouldn't have to worry about double spending in the event of a (highly unlikely) 51% attack and you also won't have to worry about your public keys being exposed for bitcoin addresses that still contain funds.

The question then becomes, how well is your private key protected from attack, given a known bitcoin address? To understand that, you have to understand how bitcoin addresses are composed.

Bitcoin addresses are made up of the public key that is first hashed with SHA256 and then it is hashed with RIPEMD160. That result is then hashed twice with SHA256 and the first 4-bytes are used as a checksum and appended to the previous RIPEMD160 hash. This checksum prevents people from mistyping in a bitcoin address and sending bitcoin to an invalid address where it would be permanently lost. A version number is prefixed to this payload and then the prefix+RIPEMD160hash+checksum is then run through Base58check encoding. This encoding is the same type of encoding as Base64 encoding except it omits several characters such as "O,0,I,l" so that bitcoin addresses avoid characters that are difficult to determine when various fonts are used to display them.

It is a pretty clever use of hashing and encoding to not only provide security for the public key being used, but to also make it easy for people to type in bitcoin addresses and not worry about making a mistake and losing funds.

One of the important things to understand about this is that because the public key is hashed twice with two different hashing algorithms, there would need to be a significant compromise in both of those algorithms (SHA256 and RIPEMD160) in order to lead to a compromise in the actual underlying public key used for that bitcoin address. If you aren't able to determine what the public key is, then it is impossible to determine what the private key is for that bitcoin address as well. If you can't determine the private key, then there is no way for anyone to be able to spend any of the funds that are sent to that bitcoin address.

This is why bitcoin is such a secure method of transacting. Because it is a push mechanism for conducting transactions and because of the techniques that are used for protecting that push mechanism (digital signatures+hashing), it makes it nearly impossible for a set of circumstances to arise that would lead to a fundamental compromise in the way that private/public keys are secured.

This is why it comes down to: protect your private key and your funds are most assuredly protected. Without your private or public key, there really isn't any way for anyone to compromise it otherwise. The idea that anyone would have a "backdoor" in any of this is completely unfounded.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #315 on: December 15, 2017, 01:17:00 PM »
If it is so safe, why is it constantly getting hacked? (And yes, intermediaries/wallets are parts of the system too.)

If it's not a bubble, why does it look like every other bubble?


If it's not a bubble, what is the fair market value of one coin? What would cause that to change? At what price would you sell everything tomorrow?

aspiringnomad

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #316 on: December 15, 2017, 01:24:53 PM »
If it's not a bubble, why am I getting ads on the MMM forum for a free crypto masterclass from this dork? ;)

ILikeDividends

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #317 on: December 15, 2017, 01:29:23 PM »
If it's not a bubble, why am I getting ads on the MMM forum for a free crypto masterclass from this dork? ;)
Because he knows it's a bubble, and doesn't dare touch it with his own money.

Just like every other get-rich-quick internet "Guru," he'll rack up profits "teaching" you how to do something he never even heard of until last week.

His bread is buttered by suckers, rather than by practicing what he preaches.

I'll bet you a ten-spot to a doughnut that his, "free Masterclass," is nothing more than a long list of glowing testimonials and a standard marketing pitch for his, "Super Duper Double Top Secret Advanced Class," for "only" $597 $297, marked down just for those who order today.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 01:46:30 PM by ILikeDividends »

Tonyahu

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #318 on: December 15, 2017, 01:31:08 PM »
If it is so safe, why is it constantly getting hacked? (And yes, intermediaries/wallets are parts of the system too.)

If it's not a bubble, why does it look like every other bubble?

If it's not a bubble, what is the fair market value of one coin? What would cause that to change? At what price would you sell everything tomorrow?

How much would you pay for value that can be moved anywhere in the world with a low fee, fast speed and is completely permission-less and immune to censorship and seizure? There is nothing like that currently in place, the only comparison can be Gold but Gold is incredibly difficult to move and store.

deek

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #319 on: December 15, 2017, 01:33:32 PM »
I'm interested in bitcoin. I'm 26. Should I go through Vanguard to buy it if I decided I wanted to? Or is an app a better option?

I literally would put only what I don't care to lose and leave it there for 2-4 weeks and see what happens.

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #320 on: December 15, 2017, 01:46:30 PM »
If it is so safe, why is it constantly getting hacked? (And yes, intermediaries/wallets are parts of the system too.)

No, Bitcoin isn't constantly getting hacked and no, intermediaries and wallets are not a part of the system. That's like saying that the internet is getting hacked because of some schmuck's Wordpress website was hacked because they were using an outdated version. There is no more obligation to using any given service or wallet in order to use Bitcoin as there is to running Wordpress for a website.

Wallets and intermediaries are services built on top of Bitcoin, they're not Bitcoin. When choosing to use Bitcoin, you can choose to use various services and wallets and your decision to use any given service will be based on your own risk assessment as to whether or not you want to expose yourself to any of those services and tools that are built on top of Bitcoin. All these services are aimed at providing additional ease of use and features above and beyond what bitcoin provides. It goes without saying that any additional complexity beyond the Bitcoin protocol itself will add security risks just like any of the myriad application services that are built on top of any of the base layer protocols that make up the internet adds security risks. It pays to do proper research into the various applications built on top of Bitcoin and the security risks associated with them. If you want the ultimate level of security, then running a full Bitcoin node gets you as close to the Bitcoin blockchain as you can get.

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #321 on: December 15, 2017, 02:08:39 PM »
If it's not a bubble, why does it look like every other bubble?

The problem I have when people try to line up bitcoin's price rise in comparison to other past historical bubble is that bitcoin's price rise came from a value of $0. No other historical bubble came from a starting price of $0. They were all established markets that became greatly skewed and out of balance for various reasons. This is why they were bubbles because of the fact that their rise above the previous market equilibrium was so extraordinary. Bitcoin also has a completely restricted supply that has no means of reacting to demand, unlike every other bubble on that list.

Have you ever looked what the price of bitcoin looks like on a logarithmic scale? See for yourself: https://blockchain.info/charts/market-price?showDataPoints=false&show_header=true&daysAverageString=1&timespan=all&scale=1&address=

That is probably a better way at historically looking at the price of bitcoin given the fact that it was a bootstrapped currency that originated from a starting price of $0. How else in the world would you expect a restricted supply currency to become widely used without it going parabolic on a linear scale? Even if that adoption took place over the course of several decades (which is unlikely for digital technology), it would still look parabolic given the kind of drastic value differences in the starting and end points at hand.

Telecaster

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #322 on: December 15, 2017, 02:17:29 PM »
How much would you pay for value that can be moved anywhere in the world with a low fee, fast speed and is completely permission-less and immune to censorship and seizure? There is nothing like that currently in place, the only comparison can be Gold but Gold is incredibly difficult to move and store.

Damn near nothing. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #323 on: December 15, 2017, 02:20:23 PM »
If it's not a bubble, why does it look like every other bubble?

The problem I have when people try to line up bitcoin's price rise in comparison to other past historical bubble is that bitcoin's price rise came from a value of $0. No other historical bubble came from a starting price of $0. They were all established markets that became greatly skewed and out of balance for various reasons. This is why they were bubbles because of the fact that their rise above the previous market equilibrium was so extraordinary. Bitcoin also has a completely restricted supply that has no means of reacting to demand, unlike every other bubble on that list.

Have you ever looked what the price of bitcoin looks like on a logarithmic scale? See for yourself: https://blockchain.info/charts/market-price?showDataPoints=false&show_header=true&daysAverageString=1&timespan=all&scale=1&address=

That is probably a better way at historically looking at the price of bitcoin given the fact that it was a bootstrapped currency that originated from a starting price of $0. How else in the world would you expect a restricted supply currency to become widely used without it going parabolic on a linear scale? Even if that adoption took place over the course of several decades (which is unlikely for digital technology), it would still look parabolic given the kind of drastic value differences in the starting and end points at hand.

I guess we're not counting the pre-bubble phase of bitcoin from 2009 to mid 2013, and the 2014 buildup and drop.

Telecaster

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #324 on: December 15, 2017, 02:22:04 PM »
I'm interested in bitcoin. I'm 26. Should I go through Vanguard to buy it if I decided I wanted to? Or is an app a better option?

I literally would put only what I don't care to lose and leave it there for 2-4 weeks and see what happens.

Sweet Jesus.  ^ This is how we know we are in bubble. 

deek

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #325 on: December 15, 2017, 02:24:57 PM »
You're welcome!

ILikeDividends

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #326 on: December 15, 2017, 02:26:05 PM »
If it's not a bubble, why does it look like every other bubble?

The problem I have when people try to line up bitcoin's price rise in comparison to other past historical bubble is that bitcoin's price rise came from a value of $0. No other historical bubble came from a starting price of $0.
It is truly astonishing that you would define a bubble based on whether the asset ever had a starting price of $0; even more astonishing that you would actually state that position in a public forum.

But, ok, I'll play.

How tulips came to the Netherlands - and even saved lives
http://www.dw.com/en/how-tulips-came-to-the-netherlands-and-even-saved-lives/a-40208176
Quote
In the 16th century, Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq was serving as the ambassador of the Habsburg monarchy to the Ottoman Empire. While visiting Turkish sultan Suleiman the Magnificant, a fan of tulips, he was given some bulbs to take back to Vienna.

De Busbecq then passed the tulip bulbs on to his friend, Flemish botanist Charles de l'Écluse, the prefect to the emperor's garden in Vienna.
When d'Écluse left Vienna to teach at a university in Leiden, Netherlands, he brought the bulbs along and planted them there.
Starting as a mere gift, tulip bulbs flourished, and then became the bubble that sets the standard for every bubble ever since.

So I suppose you reject the notion that there ever was a tulip bubble, since it came to the Netherlands by way of a (free) gift?  I really don't know what other conclusion to draw from your statement.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 02:44:22 PM by ILikeDividends »

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #327 on: December 15, 2017, 02:26:58 PM »
I guess we're not counting the pre-bubble phase of bitcoin from 2009 to mid 2013, and the 2014 buildup and drop.

What do you mean? That's the whole point of looking at it from a logarithmic scale. It shows how the previous historical rises in the price of bitcoin were much more astronomical in relativity than compared to now.

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #328 on: December 15, 2017, 02:30:04 PM »
It is truly astonishing that you would define a bubble based on whether the asset ever had a starting price of $0.

Where did I define a bubble as whether or not it ever had a starting price of $0? Don't put words in my mouth.

GuitarStv

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #329 on: December 15, 2017, 02:33:45 PM »
I guess we're not counting the pre-bubble phase of bitcoin from 2009 to mid 2013, and the 2014 buildup and drop.

What do you mean? That's the whole point of looking at it from a logarithmic scale. It shows how the previous historical rises in the price of bitcoin were much more astronomical in relativity than compared to now.

You were saying that the starting price of bitcoin before the bubble phase was 0$.  I was pointing out that for the first four years or so, bitcoin wasn't 0$ and wasn't in a bubble.

ILikeDividends

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #330 on: December 15, 2017, 02:37:47 PM »
It is truly astonishing that you would define a bubble based on whether the asset ever had a starting price of $0.

Where did I define a bubble as whether or not it ever had a starting price of $0? Don't put words in my mouth.

Um, here:

If it's not a bubble, why does it look like every other bubble?

The problem I have when people try to line up bitcoin's price rise in comparison to other past historical bubble is that bitcoin's price rise came from a value of $0. No other historical bubble came from a starting price of $0.
 
That was your answer to a question asking you to explain why bitcoin isn't a bubble.

Silly me, that's what I assumed you actually thought.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 02:46:24 PM by ILikeDividends »

runbikerun

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #331 on: December 15, 2017, 02:40:21 PM »
It is truly astonishing that you would define a bubble based on whether the asset ever had a starting price of $0.

Where did I define a bubble as whether or not it ever had a starting price of $0? Don't put words in my mouth.

"The problem I have when people try to line up bitcoin's price rise in comparison to other past historical bubble is that bitcoin's price rise came from a value of $0."

There may be some incredibly narrow semantic needle to be threaded here, but under any non-tortured reading of the above sentence, you're saying that it doesn't make sense to compare Bitcoin to historical bubbles because Bitcoin started from zero. From there, it is an extremely short journey to the conclusion that you think the start from zero means we're not dealing with a bubble. Like I said, there may be a very narrow and specific reading of what you said that doesn't imply that you think a starting point of zero means it's not a bubble, but to nine out of ten readers that's the conclusion that would be drawn.

maizefolk

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #332 on: December 15, 2017, 03:16:17 PM »
I guess we're not counting the pre-bubble phase of bitcoin from 2009 to mid 2013, and the 2014 buildup and drop.

What do you mean? That's the whole point of looking at it from a logarithmic scale. It shows how the previous historical rises in the price of bitcoin were much more astronomical in relativity than compared to now.

You were saying that the starting price of bitcoin before the bubble phase was 0$.  I was pointing out that for the first four years or so, bitcoin wasn't 0$ and wasn't in a bubble.

I'm underlying the key word here. You're saying bitcoin is in a bubble today. Which I completely agree with given the behavior of prices in 2017, and the fact that all the discussion I hear about it in non-geeky venues is focused solely on the price increase, not on actual use cases. 

Others are saying that bitcoin, itself, is a bubble, which would mean that has no underlying utility at all, which I disagree with because I do think it, or similar cyptocurrencies, do provide some utility to our society.

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #333 on: December 15, 2017, 03:31:18 PM »
Quote
The problem I have when people try to line up bitcoin's price rise in comparison to other past historical bubble is that bitcoin's price rise came from a value of $0.

For clarification, this response is not me defining whether an asset or investment is in a bubble based on whether or not it ever had a starting price of $0. That's what ILikeDividends claimed, but that's not what I meant. To put it more clearly, the key part of that statement that was missed was the "in comparison" portion. In other words, looking at bubbles relative to each other simply based on the prices of the underlying in each given bubble is a complete failure in analysis. A $0 starting point is not a defining characteristic of what makes a bubble or not, that's absolutely true, we're not in disagreement there. But, it makes no sense to compare bubbles simply on the merits of their prices without understanding the underlying forces in the market behind those prices.

This is why looking at the price of bitcoin on a logarithmic scale is so important. You could've easily taken a snapshot of bitcoin's price at numerous points along the way and it would yield a similar curve to match up to historical bubbles just like the above chart showed. Yet, doing so wouldn't give you any indicator at all as to whether or not you're dealing with a bubble in bitcoin or any other asset for that matter. For example, you could've taken a snapshot starting in Jan 2012 when it had a starting price of $4 and then had "today's" price on that graph be Jan 2014 where it had a price of around $1000. That's a multiplier of 250x and it would've dwarfed every bubble on that chart. In otherwords, this chart skews data historically simply based on arbitrary prices without regard to what determines those prices in the market.

ILikeDividends

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #334 on: December 15, 2017, 03:42:32 PM »
I guess we're not counting the pre-bubble phase of bitcoin from 2009 to mid 2013, and the 2014 buildup and drop.

What do you mean? That's the whole point of looking at it from a logarithmic scale. It shows how the previous historical rises in the price of bitcoin were much more astronomical in relativity than compared to now.

You were saying that the starting price of bitcoin before the bubble phase was 0$.  I was pointing out that for the first four years or so, bitcoin wasn't 0$ and wasn't in a bubble.

I'm underlying the key word here. You're saying bitcoin is in a bubble today. Which I completely agree with given the behavior of prices in 2017, and the fact that all the discussion I hear about it in non-geeky venues is focused solely on the price increase, not on actual use cases. 

Others are saying that bitcoin, itself, is a bubble, which would mean that has no underlying utility at all, which I disagree with because I do think it, or similar cyptocurrencies, do provide some utility to our society.
While I wouldn't disagree that stating "bitcoin is in a bubble" would be more grammatically correct than stating "bitcoin is a bubble," but I would argue that the latter expression shouldn't be taken as anything more than a less-than-perfect version of the former expression.

Personally, I don't think it refers to any utility it might have. E.g., if I referred to "tulip mania" as the "tulip bubble," would you spend any time puzzling over how a tulip could BE a bubble?

But if it's possible to find common ground here, I would at least agree that, "bitcoin is a bubble," is a nonsensical statement, if taken too literally.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 03:47:06 PM by ILikeDividends »

Telecaster

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #335 on: December 15, 2017, 03:43:21 PM »
Quote
The problem I have when people try to line up bitcoin's price rise in comparison to other past historical bubble is that bitcoin's price rise came from a value of $0.

For clarification, this response is not me defining whether an asset or investment is in a bubble based on whether or not it ever had a starting price of $0. That's what ILikeDividends claimed, but that's not what I meant. To put it more clearly, the key part of that statement that was missed was the "in comparison" portion. In other words, looking at bubbles relative to each other simply based on the prices of the underlying in each given bubble is a complete failure in analysis. A $0 starting point is not a defining characteristic of what makes a bubble or not, that's absolutely true, we're not in disagreement there. But, it makes no sense to compare bubbles simply on the merits of their prices without understanding the underlying forces in the market behind those prices.


Okay.  So what is the market force driving the rise in bitcoin?  Is it:

1) People are clamoring to buy and sell stuff with bitcoin therefore driving demand? Or,

2)  People are buying bitcoin hoping to participate in future price increases?




waltworks

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #336 on: December 15, 2017, 03:54:50 PM »
It can be simultaneously true that bitcoin (and other cryptos) are massively overvalued/well into bubble territory, AND that some of them (which may or may not be extant today) will be someday useful for making transactions.

If I were a big crypto guy I'd be *furious* about the bubble. It makes it hard/impossible to actually buy things, and it runs the risk of discrediting the whole enterprise after the inevitable collapse such that Goldman Sachs' or Chase's take on the blockchain is the one that ends up getting widely used.

-W

maizefolk

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #337 on: December 15, 2017, 04:29:40 PM »
Waltworks and ILikeDividends, I think we are in fact in agreement here.

Indexer

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #338 on: December 15, 2017, 04:47:23 PM »
Going to repeat my earlier questions and see if anyone pro-bitcoin will bite.

Is anyone using it to buy legal goods and services?

I imagine there are a few, but do we have any data on the frequently?

If the answer is no, which I assume it is, then bitcoin has no future. I get the very strong impression it is only be traded back and worth between speculators and that no one is actually using it... outside of money laundering and buying drugs.

maizefolk

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #339 on: December 15, 2017, 04:58:22 PM »
Is anyone using it to buy legal goods and services?

Yes, I have used it to buy legal goods from overseas. If transactions fees don't come way back down from their current prices in the mid-$20 I'm not going to ever again though (although I might try some other cryptocurrency instead at some point in the future).

Quote
I imagine there are a few, but do we have any data on the frequently?

To the best of my knowledge there isn't any good data on specifically legal usage frequency. Bitpay says they are on track to process approx. $1 billion worth of bitcoin payments. That's almost certainly all payments for legal goods and services, but who knows whether that's 1% of the the total volume being used for actual payments, or 10% or 50%.

sherr

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #340 on: December 15, 2017, 05:09:10 PM »
AND that some of them (which may or may not be extant today) will be someday useful for making transactions.

This is an undervalued point. There are already today crytocurrencies that are better than Bitcoins for any particular use-case. You can transfer value worldwide for cheaper and faster with any of them. So then what is Bitcoin's long-term valuation? Nothing. The only thing driving the prices and continued use is speculation and momentum. There will come a day when bitcoin transactions are too slow or too expensive or too hard compared to something else, and everyone will jump ship to the other thing. And then the same thing will happen to that and they'll jump ship to the next thing.

I'm sure that there are some long-term use-cases that will make cryptocurrencies stick around. But the long-term value of any particular cryptocurrency will always be zero, and people who jump  in to the middle of a price spike will loose their shirts when the bubble pops. Cryptocurrencies and Blockchain as a *technology* I think has some staying power. Any individual implementation is transient.

ILikeDividends

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #341 on: December 15, 2017, 05:13:03 PM »
AND that some of them (which may or may not be extant today) will be someday useful for making transactions.

This is an undervalued point. There are already today crytocurrencies that are better than Bitcoins for any particular use-case. You can transfer value worldwide for cheaper and faster with any of them. So then what is Bitcoin's long-term valuation? Nothing. The only thing driving the prices and continued use is speculation and momentum. There will come a day when bitcoin transactions are too slow or too expensive or too hard compared to something else, and everyone will jump ship to the other thing. And then the same thing will happen to that and they'll jump ship to the next thing.

I'm sure that there are some long-term use-cases that will make cryptocurrencies stick around. But the long-term value of any particular cryptocurrency will always be zero, and people who jump  in to the middle of a price spike will loose their shirts when the bubble pops. Cryptocurrencies and Blockchain as a *technology* I think has some staying power. Any individual implementation is transient.
One could argue that this is now a historical fact, rather than mere speculation about the future.

'Bitcoin Jesus' is 'really, really concerned' about the future of the digital currency
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/11/bitcoin-jesus-is-really-really-concerned-about-the-future-of-the-digital-currency.html

Since this guy, AKA Roger Ver, reportedly turned $25K into $244 million buying into bitcoin at a dollar, I would dare say that he speaks from a pretty strong position of authority, and he seems to agree with your points, exactly as you stated them.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 05:40:57 PM by ILikeDividends »

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #342 on: December 15, 2017, 05:22:09 PM »
It may be too late to get into bitcoin investing, but it's never too late to get into baseball card investing. I have a Ken Griffey Jr. rookie card that I'm willing to part with. Cheap.

ILikeDividends

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #343 on: December 15, 2017, 05:24:55 PM »
It may be too late to get into bitcoin investing, but it's never too late to get into baseball card investing. I have a Ken Griffey Jr. rookie card that I'm willing to part with. Cheap.
Cheap?  Ok, I'll bid $18,000.  Going once, going twice . . .

(BTW, what is a baseball card, what is a rookie card, and who the heck is Ken Griffey Jr?)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 05:29:03 PM by ILikeDividends »

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #344 on: December 15, 2017, 05:42:01 PM »
Is anyone using it to buy legal goods and services?

I imagine there are a few, but do we have any data on the frequently?

If the answer is no, which I assume it is, then bitcoin has no future.

I use bitcoin for all my purchases. Granted, probably about 95% of my purchases are made off-chain through a payment provider, but I do make many purchases with bitcoin as on-chain transactions for a few legal services that I use that justify the on-chain transaction costs (which are about $4-6 for me at the moment).

I suppose I don't understand the emphasis on the necessity for bitcoin to be used for everyday legal goods and services to justify its existance. Bitcoin has use cases that extend well beyond paying for your coffee (remittance, censorship resistant store of value, international payments, programmability, irreversible transactions, etc). In fact, I'd argue that a proof-of-work crypto-currency like bitcoin's last use case should be coffee purchases. We already have plenty of payment technologies that can provide services such as that without requiring the security that a decentralized censorship resistant proof-of-work payment network provides. For the most part, fast and cheap transactions don't require that level of security. Therefore, requiring the full proof-of-work of the most secure payment network on the planet (Bitcoin) is not required. This is why side chain solutions for scaling are being introduced for bitcoin and why intermediary payment providers or other less secure crypto-currencies can offer better "coffee payment services" than on-chain bitcoin transactions can provide. That being said, the fact that people are paying anywhere from $4-$15 for on-chain bitcoin transactions shows that the network provides value to the people looking to transact on it. So if you're assuming that bitcoin has no future because there aren't enough coffee cups being purchased with it, then I'm afraid you miss the entire point of Bitcoin.

waltworks

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #345 on: December 15, 2017, 05:45:52 PM »
It may be too late to get into bitcoin investing, but it's never too late to get into baseball card investing. I have a Ken Griffey Jr. rookie card that I'm willing to part with. Cheap.

I'll trade you all my copies of X-men #1. With all the different covers. Best investment ever! They're printing 7 million and maybe 100,000 people want to actually read it, it's an instant collector's item!

-W

maizefolk

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #346 on: December 15, 2017, 06:06:17 PM »
I suppose I don't understand the emphasis on the necessity for bitcoin to be used for everyday legal goods and services to justify its existance. Bitcoin has use cases that extend well beyond paying for your coffee (remittance, censorship resistant store of value, international payments, programmability, irreversible transactions, etc). In fact, I'd argue that a proof-of-work crypto-currency like bitcoin's last use case should be coffee purchases. We already have plenty of payment technologies that can provide services such as that without requiring the security that a decentralized censorship resistant proof-of-work payment network provides. For the most part, fast and cheap transactions don't require that level of security. Therefore, requiring the full proof-of-work of the most secure payment network on the planet (Bitcoin) is not required. This is why side chain solutions for scaling are being introduced for bitcoin and why intermediary payment providers or other less secure crypto-currencies can offer better "coffee payment services" than on-chain bitcoin transactions can provide.

The problem isn't that there are some use cases that can still work with $20 transaction fees. The problem is that once those other cyptocurrencies start getting a lot more real world use for things like buying cups of coffee where transaction fees should really be a few cents at most to be competitive, it's hard to see why those new more cost effective cyptocurrencies couldn't also replace bitcoin for the use cases where people would be willing to pay a $20 transaction fee. (Because who wouldn't rather pay $0.02 than $20, all things being equal?).

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #347 on: December 15, 2017, 06:29:19 PM »
The problem isn't that there are some use cases that can still work with $20 transaction fees. The problem is that once those other cyptocurrencies start getting a lot more real world use for things like buying cups of coffee where transaction fees should really be a few cents at most to be competitive, it's hard to see why those new more cost effective cyptocurrencies couldn't also replace bitcoin for the use cases where people would be willing to pay a $20 transaction fee. (Because who wouldn't rather pay $0.02 than $20, all things being equal?).

I'll argue the opposite of that. As I said, there are already plenty of other crypto-currencies and payment systems out there that can be used for buying cups of coffee. This misunderstands the value that the Bitcoin proof-of-work network provides. No other currency has found a way to provide the decentralized security and censorship resistance that the Bitcoin network can provide while at the same time being able to scale to meet the global demand that a POS system requires. The truth of the matter is that POS payments don't require that level of security and so therefore it makes no sense to sacrifice the one thing that makes Bitcoin unique (decentralized censorship resistance provided by proof-of-work). This is why the Lightning Network is such a novel concept. It allows for massive scalability (millions of tx/sec) without requiring any proof-of-work, but can still settle back to the same secure blockchain when needed. Another solution could be to possibly utilize atomic swaps between another crypto-currency that can handle higher volume, but isn't as decentralized or use the same secure proof-of-work Bitcoin provides.

You can only choose two, unless you can break the laws of physics:
1) Fast, cheap on-chain txs
2) Secure, censorship-resistant txs
3) Widespread adoption

ILikeDividends

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #348 on: December 15, 2017, 06:35:22 PM »
The problem isn't that there are some use cases that can still work with $20 transaction fees. The problem is that once those other cyptocurrencies start getting a lot more real world use for things like buying cups of coffee where transaction fees should really be a few cents at most to be competitive, it's hard to see why those new more cost effective cyptocurrencies couldn't also replace bitcoin for the use cases where people would be willing to pay a $20 transaction fee. (Because who wouldn't rather pay $0.02 than $20, all things being equal?).

I'll argue the opposite of that. As I said, there are already plenty of other crypto-currencies and payment systems out there that can be used for buying cups of coffee. This misunderstands the value that the Bitcoin proof-of-work network provides. No other currency has found a way to provide the decentralized security and censorship resistance that the Bitcoin network can provide while at the same time being able to scale to meet the global demand that a POS system requires. The truth of the matter is that POS payments don't require that level of security and so therefore it makes no sense to sacrifice the one thing that makes Bitcoin unique (decentralized censorship resistance provided by proof-of-work). This is why the Lightning Network is such a novel concept. It allows for massive scalability (millions of tx/sec) without requiring any proof-of-work, but can still settle back to the same secure blockchain when needed. Another solution could be to possibly utilize atomic swaps between another crypto-currency that can handle higher volume, but isn't as decentralized or use the same secure proof-of-work Bitcoin provides.

You can only choose two, unless you can break the laws of physics:
1) Fast, cheap on-chain txs
2) Secure, censorship-resistant txs
3) Widespread adoption
Apart from you, and maybe 100 other people, who actually knows what this means, or even cares?

I can wholly appreciate why someone in Venezuela or China would, out of desperation, use bitcoin to "stache" (pun intended) their wealth in a presumptuously safer place, but I doubt any of them would understand, or have even the slightest appreciation for any merits (if any actually exist, net net) for what you just said.

They are desperate to preserve their wealth, and would doubtless choose the baseball card option, if they thought that was a more viable choice.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 06:47:10 PM by ILikeDividends »

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #349 on: December 15, 2017, 06:44:04 PM »
Apart from you, and maybe 100 other people, who actually know what this means, or even cares?

I can wholly see why someone in Venezuela or China would want to use bitcoin to "stache" (pun intended) their wealth in a safer place, but I doubt any of them would understand, or have even the slightest appreciation for any merits (if any exist) for what you just said.

You don't seem to be giving humans that much credit. I'm pretty sure if you asked someone what a URL was back in the early days of the internet, you'd probably get a lot of blank stares as well.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!