Author Topic: is a "contested election" - Priced In??  (Read 2189 times)

Financial.Velociraptor

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is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« on: October 14, 2024, 07:36:41 PM »
nt.

GuitarStv

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2024, 08:06:45 PM »
Depends how contested.  That ranges from another big lie all the way up to a more successful insurrection than last time.

SeattleCPA

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2024, 07:58:30 AM »
Very on topic issue of the British news magazine, the economist, this week. Here's their discussion of why the American economy looks and performs so robustly as compared to other developed and big countries:

https://www.economist.com/special-report/2024/10/14/what-can-stop-the-american-economy-now

Definitely worth picking up a copy if you need something to read on the ride to work or to keep your investment knowledge fresh. (Issue also includes a discussion of why US stocks have outperformed and why US economy has grown so much faster than other developed countries.)

I think you can get a temporary free subscription once or occasionally. This issue would be the one to "use" that freebie for?

ChpBstrd

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2024, 08:43:35 AM »
@Financial.Velociraptor what is meant by "nt."?

Regarding the question in the title, my answers (guesses) are:
  • Trump loses and claims the election was rigged - YES
  • Trump wins and Harris files legal challenges - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters engage in mass demonstrations - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters engage in destructive riots - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters found militant/terrorist groups that launch deadly attacks for the next 5 years with casualties in the hundreds to low thousands - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters organize into an army / peels off divisions of the US military and start an insurgency that puts the economy in reverse and kills tens/hundreds of thousands - NO

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2024, 08:54:56 AM »
@Financial.Velociraptor what is meant by "nt."?

Regarding the question in the title, my answers (guesses) are:
  • Trump loses and claims the election was rigged - YES
  • Trump wins and Harris files legal challenges - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters engage in mass demonstrations - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters engage in destructive riots - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters found militant/terrorist groups that launch deadly attacks for the next 5 years with casualties in the hundreds to low thousands - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters organize into an army / peels off divisions of the US military and start an insurgency that puts the economy in reverse and kills tens/hundreds of thousands - NO

nt = "No Text"

Your last scenario is quite grim!

Morning Glory

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2024, 09:43:02 AM »
@Financial.Velociraptor what is meant by "nt."?

Regarding the question in the title, my answers (guesses) are:
  • Trump loses and claims the election was rigged - YES
  • Trump wins and Harris files legal challenges - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters engage in mass demonstrations - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters engage in destructive riots - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters found militant/terrorist groups that launch deadly attacks for the next 5 years with casualties in the hundreds to low thousands - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters organize into an army / peels off divisions of the US military and start an insurgency that puts the economy in reverse and kills tens/hundreds of thousands - NO
7. Trump loses or it's too close to call but Supreme Court hands it to him anyway. Harris supporters demonstrate peacefully.  Trump supporters sneak in and set a few buildings on fire. Fox News cries "riots". Totalitarian crackdowns ensue.

dividendman

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2024, 09:53:28 AM »
People always underestimate the laziness of the US population. Nobody is going to do anything in any significant way regardless of the election outcome except whine and tweet and post things online.

Regardless of who wins, I think it will be good for stocks. The US Senate is going to be Republican even if Harris wins it'll be a spending/tax cutting spree.

ChpBstrd

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2024, 11:02:33 AM »
People always underestimate the laziness of the US population. Nobody is going to do anything in any significant way regardless of the election outcome except whine and tweet and post things online.

Regardless of who wins, I think it will be good for stocks. The US Senate is going to be Republican even if Harris wins it'll be a spending/tax cutting spree.
If there is anything not priced in, it is the currency collapse that has always happened suddenly at some inflection point close to the 137% debt/GDP ratio we have now.

I suppose there is one other thing. The U.S. could become a corrupt, one-party state if the rules are changed to enable the perpetual domination of one party. In Mexico, for example, the PRI controlled the country as a one-party state / pseudodemocracy from 1946 to 2000. During those decades, Mexico fell further and further behind the politically hyper-competitive U.S. as bribery, nepotism, and backwardness were prioritized over development, education, justice, competence, or positive results in general. It doesn't matter what the PRI once stood for; having ultimate power corrupted them as it would any party. The scary part is that they maintained decent popular support while steering Mexico down the drain. Has the nosebleed value of U.S. based assets priced in decades of corrupt leadership and decline? Certainly not!

Contemporary examples include Turkyie under the Justice and Development Party, Venezuela under the United Socialist Party, and Russia under the United Russia Party. If you see this sort of scenario unfolding in the U.S, unload your most exposed assets and move your wealth somewhere with a competitive democracy and the sort of strong institutions identified by the most recent winners in the Nobel Prize in Economics.

GilesMM

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2024, 12:57:33 PM »
@Financial.Velociraptor what is meant by "nt."?

Regarding the question in the title, my answers (guesses) are:
  • Trump loses and claims the election was rigged - YES
  • Trump wins and Harris files legal challenges - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters engage in mass demonstrations - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters engage in destructive riots - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters found militant/terrorist groups that launch deadly attacks for the next 5 years with casualties in the hundreds to low thousands - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters organize into an army / peels off divisions of the US military and start an insurgency that puts the economy in reverse and kills tens/hundreds of thousands - NO


 You are suggesting 1-5 would have zero stock market consequences because they are already reflected in valuations??

dandarc

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2024, 01:04:16 PM »
@Financial.Velociraptor what is meant by "nt."?

Regarding the question in the title, my answers (guesses) are:
  • Trump loses and claims the election was rigged - YES
  • Trump wins and Harris files legal challenges - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters engage in mass demonstrations - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters engage in destructive riots - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters found militant/terrorist groups that launch deadly attacks for the next 5 years with casualties in the hundreds to low thousands - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters organize into an army / peels off divisions of the US military and start an insurgency that puts the economy in reverse and kills tens/hundreds of thousands - NO


 You are suggesting 1-5 would have zero stock market consequences because they are already reflected in valuations??
Priced in does not imply stock market won't move at all. Say 1-5 are equally likely - that's 20% odds reflected in pricing. But eventually will collapse onto one option with 100% odds and 4 options with 0% - as the odds move towards those figures, then stock prices will move towards whatever price-level is implied by that event and away from the others. Of course, big complex system, so might be hard to weed out the noise from the signal there.

This is why bond prices sometimes do move a bit on the day of the fed meeting - fed does not always tip its hand fully enough before the meeting happens for markets to have settled into near-certainty of a particular interest rate.

GilesMM

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2024, 01:14:21 PM »
@Financial.Velociraptor what is meant by "nt."?

Regarding the question in the title, my answers (guesses) are:
  • Trump loses and claims the election was rigged - YES
  • Trump wins and Harris files legal challenges - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters engage in mass demonstrations - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters engage in destructive riots - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters found militant/terrorist groups that launch deadly attacks for the next 5 years with casualties in the hundreds to low thousands - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters organize into an army / peels off divisions of the US military and start an insurgency that puts the economy in reverse and kills tens/hundreds of thousands - NO


 You are suggesting 1-5 would have zero stock market consequences because they are already reflected in valuations??
Priced in does not imply stock market won't move at all. Say 1-5 are equally likely - that's 20% odds reflected in pricing. But eventually will collapse onto one option with 100% odds and 4 options with 0% - as the odds move towards those figures, then stock prices will move towards whatever price-level is implied by that event and away from the others. Of course, big complex system, so might be hard to weed out the noise from the signal there.

This is why bond prices sometimes do move a bit on the day of the fed meeting - fed does not always tip its hand fully enough before the meeting happens for markets to have settled into near-certainty of a particular interest rate.


I see. So what is the proof that these are priced in and at what probabilities?

ChpBstrd

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2024, 02:41:04 PM »
@Financial.Velociraptor what is meant by "nt."?

Regarding the question in the title, my answers (guesses) are:
  • Trump loses and claims the election was rigged - YES
  • Trump wins and Harris files legal challenges - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters engage in mass demonstrations - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters engage in destructive riots - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters found militant/terrorist groups that launch deadly attacks for the next 5 years with casualties in the hundreds to low thousands - YES
  • Trump loses and his voters organize into an army / peels off divisions of the US military and start an insurgency that puts the economy in reverse and kills tens/hundreds of thousands - NO


 You are suggesting 1-5 would have zero stock market consequences because they are already reflected in valuations??
1, 3, and 4 already happened in late 2020 / early 2021 with little discernible effect on stocks.

2 is a non-event if it does happen. Hillary lost in 2016. Stocks maintained their long run trajectory. Trump filed legal challenges in 2020/2021 and there was no appreciable economic effect.

5 could lead to economic and social disruption, but because Trump already lost once and nationwide economic disruption didn't happen in 2021, I don't think markets are pricing that in.

6 is perceived as so unlikely that almost nobody is selling stocks on the risk. Bear in mind that Republicans and apathetic centrists own the vast majority of stocks, and when they hear Trump talk about using the military against the "enemy within" - his political opponents, journalists, scientists, institutions, etc. they just dismiss it as his style of bluster.

For the U.S. economy to swing into a non-routine deep recession or depression, consumer behavior would have to change. That could happen if, for example, something made consumers so anxious that the personal savings rate shot up from 4.8% to, say, 15%. COVID briefly accomplished this, but political violence as in scenarios 5 and 6 could do so as well.

Another thing that could break consumers might be a large added cost. Increases in fossil fuel prices did this in the 1970's and again in 1990. Trump's attempts to replace income taxes with tariffs could cause a sudden one-time rise in prices and create what economists call deadweight losses that discourage spending. No one seems to remember from history class how tariffs were one of the causes of the Great Depression.

Political violence could erupt before mid-January, as it did in 2021, but I would guess even this scenario is far fetched before early December. The earliest tariffs could come is probably 12 months from now, and that's a stretch. They may never come, given Trump's tendency to promise big but actually spend his time watching TV. As with Trump's first term, the effects of economic policy changes - if they even happen - would not be felt until years 3 and 4.

SeattleCPA

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2024, 06:49:37 AM »
I think you guys are way, way, way too pessimistic.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2024, 01:57:33 AM »
Someone claimed the contested 2020 election shaved 15% off the stock market.  I don't know if that refers to the week after the election, or the events of Jan 6th.  Either way, people react less to things they've seen before, so I would expect a drop much smaller than 15%.

GilesMM

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2024, 07:07:48 AM »
Someone claimed the contested 2020 election shaved 15% off the stock market.  I don't know if that refers to the week after the election, or the events of Jan 6th.  Either way, people react less to things they've seen before, so I would expect a drop much smaller than 15%.


Relative to Tue Jan 5, 2021, the S&P500 closed up 0.6% on Mon Jan 6, rose all week and closed up 3.4% two weeks later on Jan 21.


What do we conclude from this?  That the market had not priced in the riots but reacted favorably to them?   Or that the market couldn't care less because other factors in the economy were more important?

ChpBstrd

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2024, 07:15:46 AM »
Someone claimed the contested 2020 election shaved 15% off the stock market.  I don't know if that refers to the week after the election, or the events of Jan 6th.  Either way, people react less to things they've seen before, so I would expect a drop much smaller than 15%.
Relative to Tue Jan 5, 2021, the S&P500 closed up 0.6% on Mon Jan 6, rose all week and closed up 3.4% two weeks later on Jan 21.

What do we conclude from this?  That the market had not priced in the riots but reacted favorably to them?   Or that the market couldn't care less because other factors in the economy were more important?
Perhaps markets had priced in some tiny probability of a successful coup and the incompetent coup of Jan. 6, 2021 was perceived to be a disorganized failure, a nail in the coffin for worries about a continued Trump presidency and destabilization of the political system.

dandarc

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2024, 07:34:01 AM »
Even going back to election day 2020 - market was actually up significantly. Unless we're arguing about some hypothetical level stocks could have reached, there was no significant dip - certainly not 15%.

Scandium

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2024, 08:39:53 AM »
But I saw some guy on CNBC said that Harris would implement a 40% tax on unrealized capital gains, and the economy would collapse!! So is that priced in?!? Apparently to him that is way worse than a 1000% tariff on all imports, that's no big deal.

(nothing in her policy platform says this, but he seems to "feel like" she will..)
(he also forgot that historically the market does better under D presidents than R.. But I'm sure that was just an oversight).

dividendman

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2024, 09:31:04 AM »
But I saw some guy on CNBC said that Harris would implement a 40% tax on unrealized capital gains, and the economy would collapse!! So is that priced in?!? Apparently to him that is way worse than a 1000% tariff on all imports, that's no big deal.

(nothing in her policy platform says this, but he seems to "feel like" she will..)
(he also forgot that historically the market does better under D presidents than R.. But I'm sure that was just an oversight).

People seem to forget that tax increases need Congressional approval, while tariffs, apparently, can be raised by the President alone... so it's much more likely Trump gets his way if he wins than Harris getting her way.

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Re: is a "contested election" - Priced In??
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2024, 10:55:38 PM »
People always underestimate the laziness of the US population. Nobody is going to do anything in any significant way regardless of the election outcome except whine and tweet and post things online.

Regardless of who wins, I think it will be good for stocks. The US Senate is going to be Republican even if Harris wins it'll be a spending/tax cutting spree.

So far it looks like you were correct.