Author Topic: Sell margin funds as market is high?  (Read 1111 times)

whywork

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Sell margin funds as market is high?
« on: July 23, 2021, 12:03:44 PM »
I have been using margin (30%) in my post-tax accounts holding index ETFs.

Market is at an ATH due to earnings season as well. If I sell now, I have to pay half of the gains in taxes (all short term). But if I wait and market starts going down then it is not good either especially as I am on margin.

What do you recommend? Is anyone else considering selling their investments as well?

Also, I plan to retire in 2-4 years
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 12:09:11 PM by whywork »

Watchmaker

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Re: Sell margin funds as market is high?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2021, 12:06:54 PM »
Not to be unhelpful, but what was your plan when you started using margin?

whywork

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Re: Sell margin funds as market is high?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2021, 12:08:30 PM »
Not to be unhelpful, but what was your plan when you started using margin?

I used it to buy some of my holdings that went low. Also wanted to cash on earnings season

Telecaster

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Re: Sell margin funds as market is high?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2021, 12:41:24 PM »
I have no idea what the market will do next.  Neither does anyone else. 

Christof

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Re: Sell margin funds as market is high?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2021, 12:48:43 PM »
Not to be unhelpful, but what was your plan when you started using margin?

I used it to buy some of my holdings that went low. Also wanted to cash on earnings season

Sounds like you answered the question yourself. You did buy on low and now is earnings season. So why don‘t you stick to your original plan?

ChpBstrd

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Re: Sell margin funds as market is high?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2021, 01:12:13 PM »
1) What country do you live in that has a 50% tax on short term capital gains? In the US they max out at 37%, and even that is only for earnings after $523,601 for single filers.

2) Are options a possibility? If your margin rates are low enough, there are options trades that could lock your outcome into a narrow range of possibilities, reducing risk. E.g. a "collar" strategy or "protective put". This could make the risk more tolerable.

3) Are you 2-4y from retirement and 130% allocated to stocks? Most advice is to go 80-90% at most, because of the risk of a tragic blowup that close to the finish line that requires several years to recover from and sets back your retirement by nearly a decade. See the years 2000-2002 and do the math on what would happen at 30% margin.

bwall

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Re: Sell margin funds as market is high?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2021, 01:38:57 PM »
Market is at an ATH due to earnings season as well. If I sell now, I have to pay half of the gains in taxes (all short term). But if I wait and market starts going down then it is not good either especially as I am on margin.

Which would be worse:

1) Paying short term capital gains on profits.
2) Getting stopped out on margin.

What scenario did you expect when you entered the margin trade? Presumably, you expected the market to go up, and it has. Congratulations! Now, after all this dancing, it's time to pay the fiddler.

However, if the short term capital gains rates are too onerous, you can always wait for the market to drop and sell for a loss.

whywork

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Re: Sell margin funds as market is high?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2021, 01:43:09 PM »
1) What country do you live in that has a 50% tax on short term capital gains? In the US they max out at 37%, and even that is only for earnings after $523,601 for single filers.

2) Are options a possibility? If your margin rates are low enough, there are options trades that could lock your outcome into a narrow range of possibilities, reducing risk. E.g. a "collar" strategy or "protective put". This could make the risk more tolerable.

3) Are you 2-4y from retirement and 130% allocated to stocks? Most advice is to go 80-90% at most, because of the risk of a tragic blowup that close to the finish line that requires several years to recover from and sets back your retirement by nearly a decade. See the years 2000-2002 and do the math on what would happen at 30% margin.

1) Counting California state tax of 12%
2) This is a good idea, will research more. I was thinking of selling covered calls too
3) I am 41 and I want to grow my assets quickly to be able to retire as soon as I can. That's why the 130% allocation. I am at 1.8m now and want to quickly reach 3m+ so that I can say bye bye to work (and still be able to support kids and wife). But I don't know if I am thinking this correctly. Should I be more conservative at this number?

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: Sell margin funds as market is high?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2021, 02:55:04 PM »
1) You are already emotionally conflicted on the, easy, "greed" side of market psychology.  When the market dives, you will be absolutely miserable with "fear".  You need to recognize you are more or less incapable of taking emotion out of investing. before you do something sort of stupid.
2) P/S recently broke the all time high set for the broad market during the top of the dot-com boom.  Market can certainly continue to be stupidly overvalued and even go up by double.  But history suggests there is more risk on the horizon than reward.
3) $1.8M is a lot cheese.  You should be focusing a lot more on wealth protection than wealth growth.
4) For any realistic scenario, your savings rate is a stronger driver of your time to retirement than your rate of return.
5) You have "FU" money.  Thus, you can take greater career risks and potentially substantially increase your salary.  This is going to be higher yield than the market right now.

How long do you have until the gains go Long Term?  You might put a collar on that position at an expiry just past the LT date and lock in your gain while you wait for term to expire.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Sell margin funds as market is high?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2021, 02:57:00 PM »
1) What country do you live in that has a 50% tax on short term capital gains? In the US they max out at 37%, and even that is only for earnings after $523,601 for single filers.

2) Are options a possibility? If your margin rates are low enough, there are options trades that could lock your outcome into a narrow range of possibilities, reducing risk. E.g. a "collar" strategy or "protective put". This could make the risk more tolerable.

3) Are you 2-4y from retirement and 130% allocated to stocks? Most advice is to go 80-90% at most, because of the risk of a tragic blowup that close to the finish line that requires several years to recover from and sets back your retirement by nearly a decade. See the years 2000-2002 and do the math on what would happen at 30% margin.

1) Counting California state tax of 12%
2) This is a good idea, will research more. I was thinking of selling covered calls too
3) I am 41 and I want to grow my assets quickly to be able to retire as soon as I can. That's why the 130% allocation. I am at 1.8m now and want to quickly reach 3m+ so that I can say bye bye to work (and still be able to support kids and wife). But I don't know if I am thinking this correctly. Should I be more conservative at this number?

Re #3, I can't bust your chops because I'm leveraged too, just on a longer term hypothesis and use derivatives instead of index funds. We do to some extent get paid more to watch the lines squiggle more, but more leverage/risk does not always lead to higher returns and faster FIRE numbers. It may be more accurate to think of a leveraged portfolio as exacerbating whatever it going to happen in the short term. If the market is up a little next month, you win big. If the market is down a little next month, you lose big.

The most extreme example - way beyond a 130% stock portfolio, risk-wise - would be a weekly options spread. You could trade a spread (buy an option at one strike, sell an option at another strike) to essentially place a bet that stocks will be either higher or lower next week. Such a bet, with option strike prices on each side of the current price, generally has a 50% probability of success, and therefore a will most often yield a double-or-nothing 100% or 0% payout.

You could put your entire pot into one of these bets, and the outcome would either be retired next week or broke next week. This is the way to retire ASAP - potentially done by next week! As an alternative to these 50/50 odds, you could hold a diversified portfolio for 5 years and generate the same outcome as you would by winning the spread trade, it's just that it took 5 years instead of a week and your odds of success are massively higher while your odds of disaster are massively lower. If you lost everything on the options bet, it might take you 10 years to recover. 

Thus in terms of time - the only non-renewable resource, and our real currency - the higher-risk path will either save you years or cost you years, with very low certainty. The lower-risk path will cost you a moderate amount of time, with high certainty.

We've algebraically reduced it to a tradeoff between time and certainty. To retire in less time means to pursue a path that has less certainty of success, and a risk of adding years to one's career. This is what is meant when people say that day-to-day changes in the stock market are random, but long-term returns follow a pattern: Certainty increases with the amount of time invested.

This is the correct way to think about it, I think. It doesn't tell you what to do, but makes the tradeoff between time and certainty explicit. Personally, if I had $1.8M I'd retire to a life of luxury in a LCOL area and not have to gamble anything for the privilege of living in CA and paying 12% taxes. That bet pays out as fast as I can load the Uhaul.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Sell margin funds as market is high?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2021, 08:31:07 AM »
I have been using margin (30%) in my post-tax accounts holding index ETFs.
If you limit yourself to 130% in broad index ETFs, it could be safe enough to sustain. 

I hope you're at IBKR or a low cost margin provider.  At IBKR, the first $100k costs 1.6%, and the next $900k costs 1.1%.  For a $350k loan, that's like a blended rate of 1.2%.  That same loan at Vanguard would cost around 7% interest per year.


I used it to buy some of my holdings that went low. Also wanted to cash on earnings season
Do you mean quarterly earnings, which happens 4 times a year?  If you're trying to cash in on an event that will be over in a matter of months, you're stuck with short-term tax rates.

Last year I went on Margin at IBKR, investing for a recovery.  Ignoring the tax impact, I sold about half my investments during the recovery earlier this year.  So when the Delta variant impacted those same Covid sensitive stocks, I took a much smaller hit.  I'm glad I ignored the tax impact.

whywork

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Re: Sell margin funds as market is high?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2021, 12:39:53 PM »
Thanks all for your replies. Yes I am at IKBR and making use of their low margin rates.

Past two earnings this year the market tanked post. I'm suspecting similar thing and want to get out of leverage now to maybe get in after it tanks. I don't want to see my portfolio go lower again. If it doesn't tank it is still okay as I am invested but without leverage. My portfolio will still grow.

Alternatively I will try out some option strategies to say collar or sell covered calls instead of selling the positions.