Author Topic: Investing for older, inexperienced family member  (Read 1182 times)

FreelanceToFreedom

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Investing for older, inexperienced family member
« on: January 27, 2022, 11:13:44 AM »
A family member reached out to me for help with investing. They know 0 about investing, have little to no savings, and are in their early 60's. Definitely WAY behind on savings and will likely be working for at least 10 more years.

Anyways, I offered to help them set up an account somewhere and set up automatic investments. They want to be as hands-off as possible, and will be making small monthly investments (probably a few hundred/month). I don't believe there's any lump sum to invest, so it'll just be a small monthly amount.

I'm considering:

Roth vs traditional - Would traditional make more sense, given that there's a limited timeframe for investments to grow? I believe their household income is around $70-90k. I'm thinking the upfront tax savings may be more beneficial than Roth earnings, given the timeframe?

Which brokerage - Simple is best. I find Vanguard's website to be clunky. I was thinking maybe a robo advisor because they're user-friendly, highly automated, and the small fees won't be very substantial given the small amount of money and limited timeframe? Or just a low-cost broker like Fidelity or Schwab. What would you recommend for someone who has limited financial literacy and limited tech literacy?

Investments - Maybe a target date fund? Probably 2030 or 2035. Or a moderate risk premade portfolio on something like Betterment. I know bonds are not super attractive right now, but I also don't want to recommend 100% stocks at their age (early 60's).

I'm confident with my own investment strategy, but I'm in a much different situation than this person. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Investing for older, inexperienced family member
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2022, 01:25:14 PM »
They know 0 about investing, have little to no savings, and are in their early 60's. Definitely WAY behind on savings and will likely be working for at least 10 more years.
They are not "WAY behind" on savings if they have "little to no savings".  Someone in their 60s just doesn't happen to have no savings - there is a reason for it.  If they invest, they may just withdraw the money and spend it later.  The lack of savings needs to be addressed before they consider investing.

I'd suggest financial planning books, like "Suze Orman", which is good for things like emergency funds and paying off credit cards.  Financial planning can make better use of the salary and social security they have, which could be useful in the years ahead.

It takes some combination of high salary or high savings rate to make a difference in just 10 years, and I suspect this person doesn't fit that criteria.  So it's more realistic to set accurate expectations: investing won't solve their retirement problem.  But financial planning might help - and is the first step, anyways, before investing.


DaTrill

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Re: Investing for older, inexperienced family member
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2022, 01:42:05 PM »
Find a nearby branch of a discount broker (Vanguard, Fidelity, Schwab, other) and assist your family member along the way. 

SeattleCPA

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Re: Investing for older, inexperienced family member
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2022, 06:56:21 AM »
Roth vs Traditional IRA. If they qualify for a Roth, then Roth offers a great way to grow money tax-free. If not, they can consider a backdoor Roth.


A Roth would be a suboptimal choice if person pays income taxes on income. With no savings, almost surely their marginal rate on retirement account distributions in retirement equals zero.

BTW, I think the all in one funds--so Vanguard's Life Strategy Funds--make pretty good sense for this category of investor.

P.S. Agree with @MustacheAndaHalf that real issue for this family member isn't how to invest or where but the pre-investing stuff and mindset stuff.

Dicey

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Re: Investing for older, inexperienced family member
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2022, 08:12:24 AM »
This community has little love or respect for Orman. A much better referral would be JL Collins' "A Simple Path to Wealth."
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 11:35:11 AM by Dicey »

brellis1vt

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Re: Investing for older, inexperienced family member
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2022, 10:40:21 AM »
A family member reached out to me for help with investing. They know 0 about investing, have little to no savings, and are in their early 60's. Definitely WAY behind on savings and will likely be working for at least 10 more years.


Which brokerage - Simple is best. I find Vanguard's website to be clunky. I was thinking maybe a robo advisor because they're user-friendly, highly automated, and the small fees won't be very substantial given the small amount of money and limited timeframe? Or just a low-cost broker like Fidelity or Schwab. What would you recommend for someone who has limited financial literacy and limited tech literacy?


I've used M1, Wealthfront and tried Betterment.  They are easy and allow you to automate everything if you want.  For someone looking to "set it and forget it" I would recommend Wealthfront or Betterment (I use Wealthfront.)  Their software will build the portfolio and automatically "harvest your losses" as they can.  There is a cost associated with that at 0.25%.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Investing for older, inexperienced family member
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2022, 11:20:03 AM »
1) Traditional for sure. They have a moderate marginal tax bracket today with a 70-90k income, but they will with near-100% certainty be retiring poor within just a few years in a very low tax bracket. The "good news" if it can be called that is a traditional IRA is now just as accessible to them as a Roth, but the bad news is they will be tempted to spend it on dumb shit. Also, RMDs will not be an issue, which is more sad than anything. Take the tax break now while there is still income to be taxed.

The financial planning goal should be to increase the odds that they retire at the social security full retirement age. They will be basically living off of social security and Medicare, so maximizing their benefit is the whole point of the meager savings they are putting together now. Imagine this scenario: In 2 years, your relative loses their job or becomes disabled. They could start withdrawing social security at the minimum age, but their benefit level would be too low to survive very well on. If they can just hold out on unemployment, savings, odd jobs, whatever for a couple more years, things look considerably better. Getting to age 67 would be the ultimate goal, and that's worth it even if they exhaust the last of their savings to make it to that point. I believe the ROI on waiting one more year to claim SS is around 9%. So basically you're accumulating a 2-5 year emergency fund.

2) Because it's hands-off, any brokerage will do. Do not let this be a reason to postpone saving for another couple of months. Look for any online brokerage that offers a bonus. I'd steer clear of advisors, because there's not enough money at stake to justify a fee-only advisor and because the last thing your relative needs is to be placed in a high-load, high-fee mutual fund.

3) Investment simplicity is a relative term. I think a portfolio of BIV, TIP, and VTI is simpler to understand than some expensive robo-advisor or lifecycle fund.

One last point:
After you have helped your relative set up the mechanics of saving and investing, you may ask if they'd like to talk about their long-term housing plans, opportunities to cut back spending, ways to increase income, etc. You don't want the relative to get the impression that because they're saving $500/month (only $30k in the next 5 years!) they'll be fine in retirement. Nope, we're only slightly mitigating severe poverty here. They need to be thinking in terms of downsizing or doing a reverse mortgage, moving to a LCOL area, getting rid of late-model cars, adopting radical Mustachianism / EarlyRetirementExtremism and other big decisions because investments are not likely to move the needle this late in the game. They need to be thinking about how to sock away more like $2500-$4000/month and making the radical changes that would enable such savings. Get the basics set up before offering this conversation, but then confront them with the math that says they're on track for roommates and ramen noodles in their 70's. Good luck.

simonsez

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Re: Investing for older, inexperienced family member
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2022, 11:23:56 AM »
A family member reached out to me for help with investing. They know 0 about investing, have little to no savings, and are in their early 60's. Definitely WAY behind on savings and will likely be working for at least 10 more years.


Which brokerage - Simple is best. I find Vanguard's website to be clunky. I was thinking maybe a robo advisor because they're user-friendly, highly automated, and the small fees won't be very substantial given the small amount of money and limited timeframe? Or just a low-cost broker like Fidelity or Schwab. What would you recommend for someone who has limited financial literacy and limited tech literacy?


I've used M1, Wealthfront and tried Betterment.  They are easy and allow you to automate everything if you want.  For someone looking to "set it and forget it" I would recommend Wealthfront or Betterment (I use Wealthfront.)  Their software will build the portfolio and automatically "harvest your losses" as they can.  There is a cost associated with that at 0.25%.
Why pay 0.25% extra?  You think someone investing for the first time in their 60s is going to be concerned with tax loss harvesting?  Sounds like they just need something that automatically invests $500/month into broad coverage index funds or target funds within an IRA (whichever type) or whatever amount on top of that into a taxable account.  The platform options for investing the same amount withdrawn from a bank account are myriad and I'm not sure what benefit the extra 0.25% cost would confer to this type of investor.  I would guess the simpler the better.

OP, assuming this is in the US, does this person expect a pension or have an idea what their SS payout will be?  They could make an account on ssa.gov to help see what their estimated SS payout will be and then have firmer expectations for what is required to shore up the gap via the investing (and possibly drive home how serious their situation is).

MDM

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Re: Investing for older, inexperienced family member
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2022, 08:19:41 PM »
Great blog on Roth vs Trad: https://districtcapitalmanagement.com/traditional-ira-vs-roth-ira-vs-401k/
"...if I do say so myself?"

It's one thing to somewhat slyly self-promote one's own blog, but it would be good if said blog didn't skip some important points.

E.g., you mention starting with $6K in a traditional account vs. in a Roth account, then describe the tax treatment of withdrawing some years later when both have grown to $100K.  But that discussion overlooks the difference in tax cost to contribute the starting $6K amounts.

See the Traditional versus Roth - Bogleheads wiki article for more.

MDM

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Re: Investing for older, inexperienced family member
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2022, 08:24:07 PM »
A Roth would be a suboptimal choice if person pays income taxes on income. With no savings, almost surely their marginal rate on retirement account distributions in retirement equals zero.

1) Traditional for sure. They have a moderate marginal tax bracket today with a 70-90k income, but they will with near-100% certainty be retiring poor within just a few years in a very low tax bracket.

+1 to both of these, unless there is a very nice pension or two in the offing.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Investing for older, inexperienced family member
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2022, 09:47:03 PM »
This community has little love or respect for Orman. A much better referral would be JL Collins' "A Simple Path to Wealth."
I wouldn't read JL Collins for financial planning, when his book is about investing.  Similarly, I wouldn't recommend Suze Orman's advice on investment - she is more about emergency funds and getting finances in order.  Her "Can I Afford It?" segment is very popular, and may be an easy way for people to absorb some of the things that go into getting their financial life in shape.

Looking at Amazon's top lists for personal finance, I liked "I Will Teach You to Be Rich".  I thought it had lots to offer and was well done, so that's an alternative.

PDXTabs

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Re: Investing for older, inexperienced family member
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2022, 02:01:08 PM »
My take is:
1. Max the traditional space first.
2. See if they can work until 70 to maximize SS.
3. Portfolio allocation depends on their risk tolerance. An aggressive portfolio isn't necessarily a bad idea depending on their risk tolerance, where they will retire, and how much SS they will receive.

Car Jack

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Re: Investing for older, inexperienced family member
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2022, 02:19:57 PM »
A few posters have hinted....it really doesn't matter.  What matters is the amount saved going forward.  If a 60 year old is only saving $5k a year and wants to retire at 70, they'll only have $50k plus interest....I'll be overly generous and say they end up with $100k.  So they get to withdraw safely maybe $4k a year.  With those numbers stated, I think it's clear that if they invest in the God fund, guaranteed to double in 5 years, they still only have $8k a year at 70.  They need to save way more.  Will it reduce their lifestyle?  Well of course.  But that's probably a good thing because they're going to have to downgrade that lifestyle in retirement.