Author Topic: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions  (Read 109055 times)

MustacheAndaHalf

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No, cutting out owner’s equivalent rent sounds a lot like those arguments from people who say “because I don’t buy X, I am immune to increases in the price of X, and therefore CPI as calculated by the US government should not include X.”
Comparing a fixed mortgage payment to not buying eggs assume they have equal weight - they don't.  I challenge you to find any X that is 25% of CPI. 

MustacheAndaHalf

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The items you mention in (A) are much smaller than mortgage payments.  When combined with a mortgage with 0% inflation, those amounts are going to have net inflation much closer to 0% than 7%.

After about ten years of inflation and property appreciation my monthly mortgage payment is roughly 15% insurance, 30% property tax escrow, 25% principal paydown and 30% interest. Call it at 45/55 split between inflating and non-inflating costs.

But what about maintenance and upkeep? If we apply the 1% rule from rental real estate to estimate my maintenance costs that I pay out of pocket but renters pay for as part of the check that they write to their landlord, that'd bring my cost split to:  ~12% insurance, ~25% taxes, ~20% principal paydown, ~25% interest, and ~17% maintenance. Call it a 55/45 split in favor of more inflating costs vs less fixed costs.

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You claim "have all increases substantially" in a list that includes property taxes.  But property values are only up 1.1% over 12 months according to Zillow (other sources are not up to date - Zillow has Sept 2023 and Sept 2022 data to compare).  Property taxes are based on property values, so I doubt your claim of a substantial increase.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USAUCSFRCONDOSMSAMID

In many parts of the USA, including mine, property taxes are based on the ratio of local government spending to overall assessed value of local property in the taxation zone. The good news is that this means appreciation doesn't necessarily produce an increase in property tax owed if all properties appreciate at the same rate. The bad news is that it also means that when government spending increases faster that real estate appreciates, property taxes go up as a percentage of assessed value.

Personal anecdote: the non-principal+interest portion of my monthly mortgage payment is up 8.4%/year over year so it sure seems like higher inflation has also been hitting the cost of building schools, paying teachers, and maintaining roads. At least where I live.

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I agree people are still moving (B), but less often.  Homeowners now need to consider not just a new vs current house, but new mortgage cost vs current fixed rate.  Moving is a factor, but less so because people feel trapped by their much lower mortgages.

That's why I looked at current monthly home sales to get a rough estimate of 0.7% of households moving per month. Since those are the numbers after mortgage interest rates have already gone up it already accounts for fewer people being willing to give up their old low rate mortages.

As I said before, current rates of moving/home purchasing would translate into an overall average increase of 8.7%/year in the amount being paid towards principal and interest on mortgages (0% for a lot of people, but doubling for a modest proportion of people). There is a lot of back of envelope math involved so I'm not confident is my exact 8.7% estimate. However, it is hard to come up with a set of assumptions consistent with the data on home purchases, total US households, and the big recent increases in both property values and interest which wouldn't result in the average principle and interest homeowners are paying increasing somewhere between 5-10% annually.

TL;DR version: While I don't know what the exact right number is, between people moving and costs of homeownership which are subject to inflation even with a fixed rate mortgage, it wouldn't surprise me if the right number was somewhere around the 7%/year the fed is estimating. Or anything in the 5-10%/year range really.

But I'm extremely confident the right inflation number for this category is not 0%.
That's more convincing than the data I provided, so I'd agree you're more likely to be right than I am.  Considering the inflation you've seen in some of your home expenses (8.4% inflation x 45% of expenses), I calculate 3.8% net inflation.  If we rely on your data, we could split the difference and use 4% instead of 0% or 7%.

ChpBstrd

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No, cutting out owner’s equivalent rent sounds a lot like those arguments from people who say “because I don’t buy X, I am immune to increases in the price of X, and therefore CPI as calculated by the US government should not include X.”
Comparing a fixed mortgage payment to not buying eggs assume they have equal weight - they don't.  I challenge you to find any X that is 25% of CPI.
The most typical "because I buy / don't buy X..." argument is around gasoline and it is promoted by people who consume an inordinate amount of gasoline as part of their daily lifestyle and therefore think inflation is very high when there's been a rally in gasoline prices.  Yes, housing is weighted much higher than gasoline, but I don't think that changes the logic of using a consistent way of measuring a basket of things which a lot of consumers are actually buying in order to answer questions about the general, nationwide trend of prices.

If suddenly no one was buying houses (maybe van-by-the-river life takes off?), it might make sense to reduce the weight of housing in CPI. We'd still measure prices the same way, but housing would have less of an impact on CPI-U. So the question is whether it's true nobody is buying houses or whether this is just a media trope?

Statista.com has a good chart with a Y axis ending on zero showing how small the supposed collapse in home purchases actually is. By May 2023, more homes had been sold this year than in the entire years of 2008, 2010, or 2011. Mortgagenewsdaily.com shows sales of new homes are at historically typical levels. Existing home sales are down to a rate of about 3.65M per year compared to a 20-teens normal just above 5M, but again this paints a picture of most people transacting as if nothing has changed. Housing starts are not at their peaks, but they're at levels we called normal in the recent past, and are higher than they were for most of the 20-teens. So I conclude it's mostly a media myth that home sales transactions have collapsed. They are moderately lower, but it's not like existing home sales fell to 2M/year or 1M/year, or starts fell to <1M per year like in the years after the GFC.

I conclude markets are still normal enough that we shouldn't put an asterisk on CPI-U. On a more fundamental level, those of us who are locked-in homeowners are one house fire, divorce, or job opportunity away from having to buy another home or rent at today's prices. Such people probably constitute a lot of the transactions we're seeing in the market, and always do. Those of us who bought used cars and houses before the pandemic got lucky and avoided a price increase, but that's no reason not to measure the price increase. 

EscapeVelocity2020

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Further discussion of how home ownership has affected the US during this high inflation stint -
The standard American household is now a millionaire, according to the Federal Reserve
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Booming housing market creates millionaires

The research highlights the importance of getting on the property ladder if you want to build wealth.

Nearly two out of every three American families were homeowners last year, reflecting a slight increase from the previous three years—and as the housing market boomed during the pandemic, so did the pockets of property owners.

The average net worth of homeowners stood at $1.53 million in 2022, compared with just $155,000 for renters. Even in the U.K., over 41,000 homeowners became millionaires—a rise of 6% from the year prior —as house prices skyrocketed last year.

But while the surge in home prices has benefited those already on the ladder, it creates a financial setback for aspiring homeowners. Another Fed survey released in May, found that 65% of Americans who rent are doing so because they can't afford a down payment to buy a home.

Pretending that there is no inflation in shelter defies reality.  Even if I only experience more marginal increases in property tax and insurance costs right now, the change in real estate value has real effects on consumer behavior.  Your earlier comment ("Which means if I set "owners' equivalent rent" to 0% (representing fixed rate mortgages with 0% inflation), I get CPI-U of 2.6%.  If CPI is actually 1.1% lower, that would help explain loose financial conditions and stronger than expected consumer spending.") could just as easily be explained by the wealth effect of home owners having a strong balance sheet. 

In reality, the strong consumer spending is likely a mix of homeowners being spared some of the shelter inflation as well as benefitting from the feeling of owning an appreciating asset...  both being important for the Fed to bring to heel in order to blunt continued demand side inflation.

MustacheAndaHalf

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No, cutting out owner’s equivalent rent sounds a lot like those arguments from people who say “because I don’t buy X, I am immune to increases in the price of X, and therefore CPI as calculated by the US government should not include X.”
Comparing a fixed mortgage payment to not buying eggs assume they have equal weight - they don't.  I challenge you to find any X that is 25% of CPI.
The most typical "because I buy / don't buy X..." argument is around gasoline and it is promoted by people who consume an inordinate amount of gasoline as part of their daily lifestyle and therefore think inflation is very high when there's been a rally in gasoline prices.  Yes, housing is weighted much higher than gasoline, but I don't think that changes the logic of using a consistent way of measuring a basket of things which a lot of consumers are actually buying in order to answer questions about the general, nationwide trend of prices.

If suddenly no one was buying houses (maybe van-by-the-river life takes off?), it might make sense to reduce the weight of housing in CPI. We'd still measure prices the same way, but housing would have less of an impact on CPI-U. So the question is whether it's true nobody is buying houses or whether this is just a media trope?

Statista.com has a good chart with a Y axis ending on zero showing how small the supposed collapse in home purchases actually is. By May 2023, more homes had been sold this year than in the entire years of 2008, 2010, or 2011. Mortgagenewsdaily.com shows sales of new homes are at historically typical levels. Existing home sales are down to a rate of about 3.65M per year compared to a 20-teens normal just above 5M, but again this paints a picture of most people transacting as if nothing has changed. Housing starts are not at their peaks, but they're at levels we called normal in the recent past, and are higher than they were for most of the 20-teens. So I conclude it's mostly a media myth that home sales transactions have collapsed. They are moderately lower, but it's not like existing home sales fell to 2M/year or 1M/year, or starts fell to <1M per year like in the years after the GFC.

I conclude markets are still normal enough that we shouldn't put an asterisk on CPI-U. On a more fundamental level, those of us who are locked-in homeowners are one house fire, divorce, or job opportunity away from having to buy another home or rent at today's prices. Such people probably constitute a lot of the transactions we're seeing in the market, and always do. Those of us who bought used cars and houses before the pandemic got lucky and avoided a price increase, but that's no reason not to measure the price increase.
Motor fuel sub-category "gasoline (all types)" weights 3.6% of CPI-U, versus 25.6% for owner equivalent rent.

My main point being that fixed rate mortgages are contributing nothing to inflation.  I'm wrong to round owner equivalent rent down to 0%, per my comment above.

Comparing to zero home purchases, you conclude "nothing has changed" for most people.  Yet the graph you reference shows the lowest level of existing home sales since the great financial crisis - a crisis in which the housing market collapsed.

I notice you used Statistica, which is 5 months out of date.  If you quoted your usual favorite, FRED, you'd see 5 day old data with existing housing sales worse than the great financial crisis.  The worst data in decades is not "nothing has changed".
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/EXHOSLUSM495S

Balancing those alarming numbers are the very low rate of delinquincies.  Unlike 2008, homeowners are keeping up with their mortgage payments.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DRSFRMACBS

EscapeVelocity2020

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The Fed has had it pretty easy so far, although they tightened hard and fast in 2022, the labor market has barely flinched.  Expected 3Q GDP reading tomorrow is for 5.4% growth!.  Hard to argue that their actions are going to cause a recession.  So what now?  If they are going to raise one more time before the end of the year, their options have narrowed significantly...  Strongest US Economic Growth Since 2021 Puts Fed in Tough Spot
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(Bloomberg) -- The US economy likely expanded in the third quarter at the fastest clip in nearly two years, a surprising acceleration primarily powered by a consumer reaping the benefits of resilient job growth, rising wealth and easing inflation.

I think we are in for a wild EOY and a Fed with some tough choices to make.

achvfi

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The Fed has had it pretty easy so far, although they tightened hard and fast in 2022, the labor market has barely flinched.  Expected 3Q GDP reading tomorrow is for 5.4% growth!.  Hard to argue that their actions are going to cause a recession.  So what now?  If they are going to raise one more time before the end of the year, their options have narrowed significantly...  Strongest US Economic Growth Since 2021 Puts Fed in Tough Spot
Quote
(Bloomberg) -- The US economy likely expanded in the third quarter at the fastest clip in nearly two years, a surprising acceleration primarily powered by a consumer reaping the benefits of resilient job growth, rising wealth and easing inflation.

I think we are in for a wild EOY and a Fed with some tough choices to make.

I think it is delusional to assume customers in US to pull back spend unless there is significant pain. It might take a long while to get to to that point.

For last decade and half consumers have been well protected by cheap housing with low fixed mortgages, economic stability, significant recent wage growth especially for lower wage labor.

ChpBstrd

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Here's a funny note: At this moment, the CME's Fedwatch tool has the following predictions for November:

500-525: 0.8%
525-550: 92.8%

So markets think there's exactly a zero chance of a rate hike next week.

For December 13 the odds are displayed as:

500-525: 0.5%
525-550: 69.9%
550-575: 29.6%

So the interesting thing is a tiny percentage of participants seem to be betting an a rate CUT next week, but then a small portion of this rate cut group seem to think any such cut would be reversed in December! This is probably a lesson on market noise and inefficiency.

---------------------

The more important thing to note is that the Fed Funds Rate Futures Market is now more in alignment with the Fed's summary of economic forecasts. By the end of 2024, the Fedwatch tool is predicting an upper limit of 4.75% or maybe 5%. The dot plot median is 5.1%. For the past two years the market's forecast has been at odds with what the Federal Reserve was telling us, and now we're seeing a market capitulation and redemption of the Fed's perceived credibility.

Against all odds the soft landing narrative is gaining followers. The recent surge in long-term rates could be seen as a mass-realization that the FFR will not be cut anytime soon in response to recession - as was predicted earlier this year - and so the yield curve needs to swing back to normal term premiums.

I'm still skeptical. I remember how past recessions suddenly emerged from environments of strong economic growth, and how big a role rate hikes played in those recessions. 4Q2007 GDP growth was 4.8%, 4Q2000 GDP growth was 5.4% - that's what being on the cusp of a deep recession can look like!

If GDP stays high, it's going to raise questions about whether we're heading to a 6% FFR. In both 2000 and 2006 the Fed took a wait-and-see approach in response to slowing growth, and in both cases recession started about a year later anyway. I think they will take a similar approach this time.

I bought $7,800 of TLT this morning, and it looks like my short TLT put option will be in-the-money by Friday, for another net $42,750k in TLT exposure. I may be early but it seems like a good time to accumulate duration. I'm using TLT because I'm open to the possibility of a small, quick win due to events in November-January and want to be able to execute the opportunity with options. Otherwise, I'm going to keep accumulating quality duration, selling SGOV to raise the funds. I'll be too early if long-term rates continue rising and eventually exceed the FFR, but (a) I don't think market consensus will swing so unanimously to allow that - not after so many rate hikes and such a deeply inverted yield curve, and (b) with TLT I can dig myself out using covered calls.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2023, 11:23:03 AM by ChpBstrd »

achvfi

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I bought $7,800 of TLT this morning, and it looks like my short TLT put option will be in-the-money by Friday, for another net $42,750k in TLT exposure. I may be early but it seems like a good time to accumulate duration. I'm using TLT because I'm open to the possibility of a small, quick win due to events in November-January and want to be able to execute the opportunity with options. Otherwise, I'm going to keep accumulating quality duration, selling SGOV to raise the funds. I'll be too early if long-term rates continue rising and eventually exceed the FFR
So you think it is good price point to catch the falling knife?
I was wondering about all the folks that have been catching this falling knife since 2020 with loss of over 50% in value.


Must_ache

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$83 is a historical bottom for TLT over the last twenty years.  The "falling knife" component was due to raised interest rates which for the time being could be leveling off.  Although there is some uncertainly about whether yields could go higher, I think it is a great time to buy the stock and it's 4% yield (based on the last three dividends).   

I'll probably buy some eventually, but I'm going to wait a bit.  It did drop -2.4% today, who knows how much bad news remains.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2023, 12:25:17 PM by Must_ache »

achvfi

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$83 is a historical bottom for TLT over the last twenty years.  The "falling knife" component was due to raised interest rates which for the time being could be leveling off.  Although there is some uncertainly about whether yields could go higher, I think it is a great time to buy the stock and it's 4% yield (based on the last three dividends).   

I'll probably buy some eventually, but I'm going to wait a bit.  It did drop -2.4% today, who knows how much bad news remains.
Yes, definitely a tempting entry point for long term. But also seems highly speculative and risky in short term. 

ChpBstrd

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I bought $7,800 of TLT this morning, and it looks like my short TLT put option will be in-the-money by Friday, for another net $42,750k in TLT exposure. I may be early but it seems like a good time to accumulate duration. I'm using TLT because I'm open to the possibility of a small, quick win due to events in November-January and want to be able to execute the opportunity with options. Otherwise, I'm going to keep accumulating quality duration, selling SGOV to raise the funds. I'll be too early if long-term rates continue rising and eventually exceed the FFR
So you think it is good price point to catch the falling knife?
I was wondering about all the folks that have been catching this falling knife since 2020 with loss of over 50% in value.
No idea. This knife could keep falling, especially if the yield curve inverts from the long side, as I partially suspect is happening. Curve normalization, in the absence of rate cuts, could look something like a 5.5% FFR and a 6.5% 10 year yield. That outcome would be disastrous for my TLT position, which is why I'm moving incrementally in this direction over the course of months instead of all-in.

ChpBstrd

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I bought $7,800 of TLT this morning, and it looks like my short TLT put option will be in-the-money by Friday, for another net $42,750k in TLT exposure. I may be early but it seems like a good time to accumulate duration. I'm using TLT because I'm open to the possibility of a small, quick win due to events in November-January and want to be able to execute the opportunity with options. Otherwise, I'm going to keep accumulating quality duration, selling SGOV to raise the funds. I'll be too early if long-term rates continue rising and eventually exceed the FFR
So you think it is good price point to catch the falling knife?
I was wondering about all the folks that have been catching this falling knife since 2020 with loss of over 50% in value.
No idea. This knife could keep falling, especially if the yield curve inverts from the long side, as I partially suspect is happening. Curve normalization, in the absence of rate cuts, could look something like a 5.5% FFR and a 6.5% 10 year yield. That outcome would be disastrous for my TLT position, which is why I'm moving incrementally in this direction over the course of months instead of all-in.
I probably made this sound more arbitrary than it is. A 6.5% 10 year yield might imply mortgage rates around 9% which would raise the monthly P&I cost of the amount borrowed by 12.1% compared to what it is at today's 7.76% mortgage rates, and a whopping 49.7% over what people were barely able to afford back when rates were 5% JUST LAST YEAR. So I'm wagering something breaks before long-term rates can rise much higher. It might not be residential housing that goes first, but rates do not rise this fast without breaking something.

ChpBstrd

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CRE data points
« Reply #963 on: October 27, 2023, 08:51:51 AM »
From a very good interview, linked to elsewhere:
https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/podcasts/episodes/10-17-2023-rechler-vannieuwerburgh.html
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6:15 "We built an asset pricing model... The office stock is worth 40-45% less than before Covid as a result of remote work, hybrid work, as well as interest rate changes."

6:55 Van Nieuwerburgh mentions how top-tier offices might have only lost 20% of their value because downsizing companies are trading up in amenities, but "...the rest, the A minus, B, C class office loses 60% or more."

7:20 "Actual physical occupancy data points don't show a strong return to office.... The latest data indicates office occupancy extends to about 50% of pre-pandemic values... this office indicator has been very stable for the past 18 months."

8:40 Host: "Reckler and Nieuwerburgh do agree that achieving stabilization in the commercial real estate market won't happen quickly. Reckler believes that we're still in the early innings of what he sees as a years-long process of revaluation, deleveraging, and recapitalization, akin to the aftermath of the savings and loan crisis."

10:30: "A lot of the recognition as to where the valuations are, and the loans that are maturing, haven't yet happened. There's $2.6T of loans maturing between now and the next five years and they all have to be reset in terms of where rates are.... They're starting to capitulate... I think we'll see that starting to gain momentum in 2024."

13:30: Niewerburgh estimates 10-15% of offices in the US are suitable for residential conversion. I.e. "maybe 400k apartments nationwide that we could create". And "there is a narrow path to profitable conversions" so affordable apartment conversions would probably need subsidies.

16:40: "The debt is much more concentrated, the CRE debit, about 60% of it is banks. Among the banks, 2/3rd of the risk is held by smaller, regional banks. The 2nd largest holders are insurance companies, around 14%. The CMBS market is around 10% of the debt, and then you have some mortgage REITs... around another 10%. Now if you think my 40% reduction in value number is correct, it means that in the typical office deal, the equity would be wiped out, because there's only 40% equity. And if you believe my 60% number for reduction in class B office, it means not only is the equity wiped out but debt also takes roughly a 30% hit. On CMBS historically losses given default on retail bonds have been... 50%. So 50% loss on the debt is not an uncommon occurrence given default in real estate"

20:00: "I wouldn't be surprised if a couple hundred small banks toppled over. That wouldn't be a problem for the broader economy... I think the closest parallel to this is what happened in the 80s with the savings and loan crisis... One thing I think people under appreciate is banks have 3 times more CRE exposure today as they did back in those days."

"As a fraction of equity... the average among small banks under $10 billion is their CRE exposure is 280% of their equity. For medium sized banks between $10 billion and $250 billion that number is 180%, and for the largest banks it's around 55%."
---------
The data presented make a good case for avoiding banks, insurance companies, and REITs like the plague, despite superficially cheap valuations and appealing yields. But it's also hard to look at these numbers and envision something other than a bank crisis, unless rate relief comes soon. Banks won't lose 50% on ALL their CRE loans, but the >100% CRE leverage to total equity of most banks is sufficient to sink most of them even if only a fraction of loans default. Owners with negative equity have nothing to lose, and nothing to bring to bank negotiations.

Worst of all, this is not a temporary recession or period of high unemployment causing this; it's the technological obsolescence of apparently half our built office space. According to professor Nieuwerburgh, the 50% occupancy metric has been stable for a year and a half despite all the "return to office" media rhetoric. The pandemic has essentially been over with for a year now, and if offices are not recovering in today's booming economy and sub-4% unemployment, they won't. For most office jobs, it's cheaper and more efficient to have people WFH.

We can talk about CRE being an existential threat to banks without even getting into the housing bubble, compressing margins as deposit costs rise faster than asset yields, or the possibility of consumer debt defaults. Throw any of these into the mix and a "mild recession" many people are calling their baseline case leads to hundreds of bank failures or a nationwide liquidity crisis.

So the best possible outcome right now would be a good ole emergency of some sort, which would give the Fed room to cut the FFR down to about 3.5% or 4% within a year, and adjust expectations for long rates. That would reduce defaults to a workable level, make 50% occupied lower-tier office buildings with rent cuts more likely to be approved for loans, and possibly save the housing bubble from popping.

ChpBstrd

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September PCE:
     monthly: +0.4% (versus +0.4 in Aug)
     yearly: +3.4% (versus 3.4% in Aug)

Core PCE:
     monthly: +0.3 (versus +0.1 in Aug)
     yearly: +3.7% (versus +3.8% in Aug, note steady decline since Sept. 2022)

Personal Savings Rate:
     yearly: +3.4% (versus 4.0% in Aug, note there has been a 4-month decline)

We're now 12 months out from the second "top" in Core PCE. The rate of Core PCE disinflation was -1.795% over the past 12 months. If this pace holds, we'll see +2% Core PCE in another 12 months. I think it's reasonable to expect the Fed to hold off any more rate hikes and try to coast to this outcome, like they did from July 2006 to July 2007. 
     

reeshau

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Re: CRE data points
« Reply #965 on: October 27, 2023, 03:43:56 PM »

"As a fraction of equity... the average among small banks under $10 billion is their CRE exposure is 280% of their equity. For medium sized banks between $10 billion and $250 billion that number is 180%, and for the largest banks it's around 55%."


IDK if the podcast makes this leap, or it's the condensation of quoting.  But CRE != Office.  Much less, central business district office.  This could be booming sectors like warehousing, suburban retail, or nursing homes, too.

If all commercial real estate is dropping by this amount, then we are talking about a much bigger phenomenon that work from home.

BicycleB

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Re: CRE data points
« Reply #966 on: October 27, 2023, 04:15:34 PM »
From a very good interview, linked to elsewhere:
https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/podcasts/episodes/10-17-2023-rechler-vannieuwerburgh.html
-----------
6:15 "We built an asset pricing model... The office stock is worth 40-45% less than before Covid as a result of remote work, hybrid work, as well as interest rate changes."

6:55 Van Nieuwerburgh mentions how top-tier offices might have only lost 20% of their value because downsizing companies are trading up in amenities, but "...the rest, the A minus, B, C class office loses 60% or more."

7:20 "Actual physical occupancy data points don't show a strong return to office.... The latest data indicates office occupancy extends to about 50% of pre-pandemic values... this office indicator has been very stable for the past 18 months."

8:40 Host: "Reckler and Nieuwerburgh do agree that achieving stabilization in the commercial real estate market won't happen quickly. Reckler believes that we're still in the early innings of what he sees as a years-long process of revaluation, deleveraging, and recapitalization, akin to the aftermath of the savings and loan crisis."

10:30: "A lot of the recognition as to where the valuations are, and the loans that are maturing, haven't yet happened. There's $2.6T of loans maturing between now and the next five years and they all have to be reset in terms of where rates are.... They're starting to capitulate... I think we'll see that starting to gain momentum in 2024."

13:30: Niewerburgh estimates 10-15% of offices in the US are suitable for residential conversion. I.e. "maybe 400k apartments nationwide that we could create". And "there is a narrow path to profitable conversions" so affordable apartment conversions would probably need subsidies.

16:40: "The debt is much more concentrated, the CRE debit, about 60% of it is banks. Among the banks, 2/3rd of the risk is held by smaller, regional banks. The 2nd largest holders are insurance companies, around 14%. The CMBS market is around 10% of the debt, and then you have some mortgage REITs... around another 10%. Now if you think my 40% reduction in value number is correct, it means that in the typical office deal, the equity would be wiped out, because there's only 40% equity. And if you believe my 60% number for reduction in class B office, it means not only is the equity wiped out but debt also takes roughly a 30% hit. On CMBS historically losses given default on retail bonds have been... 50%. So 50% loss on the debt is not an uncommon occurrence given default in real estate"

20:00: "I wouldn't be surprised if a couple hundred small banks toppled over. That wouldn't be a problem for the broader economy... I think the closest parallel to this is what happened in the 80s with the savings and loan crisis... One thing I think people under appreciate is banks have 3 times more CRE exposure today as they did back in those days."

"As a fraction of equity... the average among small banks under $10 billion is their CRE exposure is 280% of their equity. For medium sized banks between $10 billion and $250 billion that number is 180%, and for the largest banks it's around 55%."
---------
The data presented make a good case for avoiding banks, insurance companies, and REITs like the plague, despite superficially cheap valuations and appealing yields. But it's also hard to look at these numbers and envision something other than a bank crisis, unless rate relief comes soon. Banks won't lose 50% on ALL their CRE loans, but the >100% CRE leverage to total equity of most banks is sufficient to sink most of them even if only a fraction of loans default. Owners with negative equity have nothing to lose, and nothing to bring to bank negotiations.

Worst of all, this is not a temporary recession or period of high unemployment causing this; it's the technological obsolescence of apparently half our built office space. According to professor Nieuwerburgh, the 50% occupancy metric has been stable for a year and a half despite all the "return to office" media rhetoric. The pandemic has essentially been over with for a year now, and if offices are not recovering in today's booming economy and sub-4% unemployment, they won't. For most office jobs, it's cheaper and more efficient to have people WFH.

We can talk about CRE being an existential threat to banks without even getting into the housing bubble, compressing margins as deposit costs rise faster than asset yields, or the possibility of consumer debt defaults. Throw any of these into the mix and a "mild recession" many people are calling their baseline case leads to hundreds of bank failures or a nationwide liquidity crisis.

So the best possible outcome right now would be a good ole emergency of some sort, which would give the Fed room to cut the FFR down to about 3.5% or 4% within a year, and adjust expectations for long rates. That would reduce defaults to a workable level, make 50% occupied lower-tier office buildings with rent cuts more likely to be approved for loans, and possibly save the housing bubble from popping.

Does 50% occupancy mean that half of the offices are completely empty, or does it mean that on a given day, half the seats in downtown offices are empty that day?

I thought I read that the most common arrangement employers have been shifting towards is a hybrid model where employees are in office 2 or 3 days per week while working from home the other days. If so, maybe 50% occupancy means that most employers still need most of those seats even though on a given day half are empty if viewing the downtown as a whole. This would reduce the value of real estate for ancillary service providers (Subway, etc) but wouldn't it change the logic chain you're following?

ChpBstrd

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Re: CRE data points
« Reply #967 on: October 27, 2023, 04:45:25 PM »

"As a fraction of equity... the average among small banks under $10 billion is their CRE exposure is 280% of their equity. For medium sized banks between $10 billion and $250 billion that number is 180%, and for the largest banks it's around 55%."
IDK if the podcast makes this leap, or it's the condensation of quoting.  But CRE != Office.  Much less, central business district office.  This could be booming sectors like warehousing, suburban retail, or nursing homes, too.

If all commercial real estate is dropping by this amount, then we are talking about a much bigger phenomenon that work from home.
Judging by the return on assets for REITs in these other areas, many yield <5% and all yield less than current financing costs. That's net of depreciation and based on their current loans' interest rates. For example:

REIT     ROA
O         1.76%
EQR     4.28%
SELF    4.38%
AMT     3.41%
VTR      0.34%

VNQ is down 35% over the past 2 years. Perhaps that reflects investors' appraisals of the value of CRE across a wide variety of sectors?

blue_green_sparks

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Question: When the fed pivots back to expansionary policy; will inflation jump higher?

MustacheAndaHalf

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Question: When the fed pivots back to expansionary policy; will inflation jump higher?
If a "hard landing" or crash causes the Fed to react, that crash could take demand (and inflation) lower.

In a "soft landing" scenario, it's not clear how fast financial activity would start back up.  If the Fed lowers rates too quickly, they can trigger a surge in demand that causes inflation to spike again.  I would assume the Fed strives to avoid that, but it's not something I can predict.

Surprises can spoil predictions as well (Russia invading Ukraine).

ChpBstrd

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National Association of Business Economists October Survey:

Regarding a recession in the next 12 months...
"Seventy-nine percent of respondents assign a probability of 50% or less to such an occurrence, up from 71% in the July survey, while 18% suggest a recession is more likely than not, down from 26% in the previous survey."

Queue the jokes about whether this is a bullish or bearish signal.

Reynold

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A couple of WSJ articles I've read recently are discussing the unusual nature of the interest curve reversion recently, usually its because the Fed cuts short term rates, in this case its because long term rates are rising.  The best guess for why long term rates are rising is that investors are starting to realize that US budget deficits are not only huge ($2T this year, higher than expected) but there is no appetite in either party to broadly raise taxes or cut spending significantly, so deficits will increase from here, and there will be a LOT of debt coming on the market.  There is good demand for Treasuries worldwide, but not infinite given the large amounts of debt the other developed countries are also issuing. 

The US has been pretty fortunate for years now being able to issue debt without buyers demanding higher rates, but as many other countries have shown, at some point a limit is reached where people start asking whether it will be paid back without concurrent inflation of the currency, and want higher yield accordingly. 

Regarding commercial real estate, reeshau is right that that is not just downtown office space, but I would not describe suburban retail as booming either.  Malls are the poster child for dying due to accelerated shopping on line, but plenty of other retail is struggling too.  Christmas Tree Shops just went out of business, to the deep disappointment of DW, and I've seen a lot of restaurant closures in our area because you have fewer people in offices eating lunch midday and probably some people who learned to cook during Covid and are continuing to do so.  Even the suburban office park hosting the company I just retired from in April is down so much in occupancy (80-90%) that they applied to turn the three buildings into warehousing.  That was turned down by the town, so tough luck for them.  No idea how the holding company is making payments on the buildings or how long they will do so. 

reeshau

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Retail has come up in the bank thread, too:

Retail space is at an 18yr low in vacancy, CBRE data in this report.

https://chainstoreage.com/available-retail-space-hits-18-year-low

For the most part the product deliveries here slowed after 2007 while population and spending age population kept growing.

The WSJ just had an article on suburban office space, and the value it has in being able to be converted into other uses, unlike tall office towers.  While the town declined the plan, the fact that the plan was hatched shows the value that suburban office locations have.

blue_green_sparks

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Yeah, Spirit Halloween has no trouble finding retail space and is not the only pop-up Halloween store around here this year. Amazing how they throw 1500 stores together so fast. Owned by Spencer Gifts, I was looking to buy some stock a while back but no ticker, I guess.

ChpBstrd

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Does 50% occupancy mean that half of the offices are completely empty, or does it mean that on a given day, half the seats in downtown offices are empty that day?

I thought I read that the most common arrangement employers have been shifting towards is a hybrid model where employees are in office 2 or 3 days per week while working from home the other days. If so, maybe 50% occupancy means that most employers still need most of those seats even though on a given day half are empty if viewing the downtown as a whole. This would reduce the value of real estate for ancillary service providers (Subway, etc) but wouldn't it change the logic chain you're following?
I believe the guest who said that referenced a data source that measures badge scans or turnstile rotations. So it would be a "butts in seats" measurement, not a vacancy measurement. And yes, you are correct that hybrid offices would yield this result - lots of leased property sitting vacant much of the time.

However, we have to ask whether hybrid is just an interim stage for managers that aren't ready to go full remote just yet. If all you're doing is having an in-person team meeting once a week, doing job interviews, board meetings, and maybe 1x1 feedback sessions, there are lots of cheaper options than renting, furnishing, heating, cooling, insuring, maintaining, securing, etc. a ghost-town office. If you absolutely must meet in person, the front-of-mind solution is to rent hotel ballrooms on an as-needed basis. Another option is to sublease from companies who are renting offices and are also running a ghost town. Hell, my local coffee shop will rent you a 10 person meeting room for 2 hours at $20. MMM is riding the wave with his coworking space, and he's not alone. Maybe WeWork was just ahead of its time, and badly managed. In any case, you need a lot less space for meetings than you need for everyone to have a cubicle and 5 meeting rooms.

Recall that the original purpose of offices was to house paper files. Then it fell back to ensuring teams could rapidly communicate. Then it fell back to having a server room in the era before cloud services. Now offices lack any purpose, are a wasteful fixed cost, and are actually a barrier to recruiting top talent.

reeshau

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However, we have to ask whether hybrid is just an interim stage for managers that aren't ready to go full remote just yet. If all you're doing is having an in-person team meeting once a week, doing job interviews, board meetings, and maybe 1x1 feedback sessions, there are lots of cheaper options than renting, furnishing, heating, cooling, insuring, maintaining, securing, etc. a ghost-town office. If you absolutely must meet in person, the front-of-mind solution is to rent hotel ballrooms on an as-needed basis. Another option is to sublease from companies who are renting offices and are also running a ghost town. Hell, my local coffee shop will rent you a 10 person meeting room for 2 hours at $20. MMM is riding the wave with his coworking space, and he's not alone. Maybe WeWork was just ahead of its time, and badly managed. In any case, you need a lot less space for meetings than you need for everyone to have a cubicle and 5 meeting rooms.


I think this has potential, but not if everyone's days remote are Monday and Friday.  If so, the coworking spaces will just price their highest demand days to pay for all the empty time, too--like congestion pricing for city center roads.  This even applies if I find a partner company (or group within a large company) who will do Mon-Wed in the office, while I do Wed - Fri.  You still have Wednesday at peak capacity, and it has to pay for that by itself.

Now, 2 days a week in the office (or less) opens up a much more level schedule.  But I haven't heard of company proposals settling on that.

There's also the inertia of existing buildings or leases--if we're stuck with them, we might as well use them!

ChpBstrd

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House prices have been on the rise since February 2023, and today's release showed a 0.43% rise in August and are up 2.57% from a year ago:


The Federal Reserve has traditionally thought about oil prices as a potential driver of prices elsewhere in the economy, but now housing prices are behaving more like oil futures. As I noted in other discussions, local employers have to raise wages until their workers can at least make a breakeven / acceptable living in their area. Otherwise the workers will run out of money, will have to quit, and will be forced to move to cheaper locales, creating a shortage. Thus, as housing costs rapidly escalate, wage pressures have escalated too. This leads to a housing-wage-price spiral:

1) Housing costs increase
2) Wage pressures increase in HCOL areas, because if wages don't rise workers will be priced out of the area and a shortage will occur
3) Prices increase in HCOL areas to offset the cost of labor
4) Wages and prices equalize at higher levels in MCOL/LCOL areas due to arbitrage

In this way, housing speculation in HCOL areas can raise inflation nationwide. Traditional economic theory suggests things are supposed to equalize: Expensive areas would become less expensive if you couldn't find workers for the lowest paid jobs, such as retail, restaurant, janitorial, etc. and the place became a service industry desert with the trash piling up and no workers to run the amenities. Then of course as a place gets more expensive, demand should fall because fewer people can afford it and more people choose cheaper alternatives. 

Theory breaks down when speculators are getting into bidding wars to place their 3-6% down payments and get a toehold in the "hot" markets where they can expect to double those down payments every year. In this scenario, a rapid run-up in prices attracts more buyers instead of running them off. Buyers don't care about the sustainability of a place, they're just placing a rational bet that they'll make tens (hundreds?) of thousands in home equity in a short period of time, like they've done for years. 

Speculators or landlords bidding up unaffordable houses at 8% rates are making a bet that their down payments will increase faster than their interest costs will accrue. At 8%, for each $100k borrowed on a 30y loan, you will pay $7,970 in interest your first year and only gain $835 in equity. Such landlords will have to raise rents to cover the much higher interest expense, and that in turn could pressure wages to rise.

If this model is at all correct, the Fed may need to either burst the housing bubble in order to control inflation OR maintain very high real rates for a long time. I would say 8% mortgage rates *should* do the job, but as others pointed out many workers are locked into older mortgages and will not quit their jobs or move just because houses in their area are now expensive. Thus housing costs only affect wage growth at the margin - which is not much these days. The overall shrinkage of the housing market, fewer houses for sale and fewer buyers, means the housing bubble may stretch out a bit longer before it runs out of new money (the way all bubbles end). A relative trickle of new speculative money could keep an illiquid market afloat for an unpredictable amount of time.

Plus, average hourly earnings are growing at about 4.1% per year right now, nationwide. That means potential speculators / LLs might be penciling in 3-5% rent growth for the next couple of years, plus 2.5%-5% house appreciation per year, plus 1% mortgage payoff per year. Seen a certain way, that still adds up to more than the after-tax cost of mortgage interest, even at 8%. We have to be near an inflection point, though, as these numbers keep getting worse for buyers, and as the rent-buy calculation even more strongly favors renting.


MustacheAndaHalf

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As I noted in other discussions, local employers have to raise wages until their workers can at least make a breakeven / acceptable living in their area. Otherwise the workers will run out of money, will have to quit, ...
Employers "have to raise wages"?  The workers "will have to quit"?

Millions of Americans seem to have found an alternative solution.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNU02026625

reeshau

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There was a market reaction to San Fran's rising housing costs.  The population growth rate below shows a distinct inflection point after the dot bomb.  It is still (usually) technically growing, but not compared to its GDP, and outside of a single economic cycle.

What this does not show is the extent of churn of income levels: people on the lower end migrating for economic reasons, either to move away entirely, or to move further and commute more.

The fact that this change did not turn into cheaper housing is an interesting asymmetry that doesn't fit a textbook demand curve.  One part of that is that building there is constrained--it has been under-supplied for a long time.  (Relative to demand)  I would say another part are the wages: they happened to have an industry that could keep raising wages without disrupting their profitability.

The UN forecast seems crazily out-of-step, given that this chart barely touches on the impact of remote work on the area, as well as thw last 20 years' history.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #979 on: November 03, 2023, 12:15:48 PM »
What a week we just had!  The Fed was much softer in its saber rattling 'still considering raising' statements following standing pat on the Fed Rate.  Today's data indicated a slightly cooling labor situation (the Goldilocks scenario) as well as increased productivity (an inflation buster)!  This all culminated in a strong week for the stock markets, a pretty decent drop in 10 yr bond yield, and the CME Fed Watch Tool showing a 95.4% chance (up from 53% a month ago) of rates ending 2023 unchanged.  Expectations are creeping up for a cut in early 2024.  Seems like the Fed has pulled off the soft landing after all!

ChpBstrd

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #980 on: November 03, 2023, 02:08:30 PM »
I decided to go long - duration that is. I've decided to exit most of my safe SGOV positions yielding 5.3% and pivoted into some TLT, ZROZ, and mostly individually purchased extreme duration/convexity treasuries like CUSIP: 912810SN9. Overall I moved over $200k from the overnight duration to >25 years.

I was a bit late, but I was waiting for a signal and better late than never. For example, TLT hit bottom on 10/19 and rallied +4.8% as of today, outrunning the S&P500. Other long-duration bonds of course followed suit. In hindsight, I should have been picking up duration while I was suggesting such bonds in the "Most Intriguing Investment" thread. My recommendation timing was perfect. However, I didn't immediately execute because I lacked confidence in the themes I've been developing in this thread and elsewhere, reluctant to fully grab the falling knife until there was some sign of a reversal. So I only sold a few TLT puts, which quickly swung OTM. Since 10/19, 30-year rates have collapsed from 5.11% to 4.82%. It might be a short-term zig zag, but at this point I think the risks of being early are balanced by the risk of missing the trend.

My big shift from no-duration to extreme-duration is based on the following premises:
-------------
1) Long-term yields are historically high compared to inflation expectations. This chart shows the difference between 30y nominal treasury yields and the 30y inflation breakeven rate derived from TIPS vs. nominal yields. Thus, the market itself expects +2.47% real returns from 30y treasuries, an unusually high point comparable to what markets expected after the GFC. Another interpretation might be that the TIPS market is underestimating inflation, but I don't think so because of reasons described below.


2) Inflation excluding shelter is at 1.99%. Thus we do not have a money supply problem, broad inflation expectations problem, or a velocity of money problem. We have a problem that can be narrowed down to the price of shelter, and this component alone is propping up CPI, Core CPI, PCE, and Core PCE. This observation is consistent with the explanation that we're simply going through a housing bubble, not that general "inflation is too high" as JPow keeps stating. If the Fed is mistaking an asset bubble for a broad loss of purchasing power by a currency, then they've hiked rates far into positive real territory and that will soon suppress the economy. One could argue the high rates will be necessary to pop the bubble, but (a) targeted policy interventions would have been preferable to sacrificing the entire economy, and (b) the performance of the broader economy is what might force a rapid series of rate cuts in the next 2-3 years, so if the Fed sacrificed the economy to pop the bubble, that's the reality - not what should have been. As that scenario comes into view, we should plan for it.


3) Rate Hikes Are Probably Over.
According to the Fedwatch tool the odds of a December hike have fallen from 39.45% a month ago to 4.5% today. Now the Fedwatch tool is showing a probable rate cut by May. I agree with the market's current assessment, but it's not because of the herd. It's because 8% mortgage rates and high borrowing costs across the board must be getting close to breaking something. I cannot tell exactly where the fracture will occur - residential, CRE, regional banks, shadow banks, derivatives, big banks, overnight markets, various overseas markets - but never have rates risen this far this fast and not resulted in something snapping. Even if all we get is an unemployment rate slowly grinding upward, that still reverses the course of interest rates.

4) Experts Are Calling The Top In Interest Rates. Bill Ackman made a fortune shorting treasuries earlier this year, but something spooked him out of the short position in October. Pimco's Bill Gross called for a recession starting this quarter, citing a sudden increase in delinquencies. Jamie Dimon recently said JP Morgan is "trimming the sails", i.e. said he's reducing JP Morgan's real estate exposure, due to vacancies, and taking $114 million of his wealth out of the company's stock. According to other media reports, Jeffrey Gundlach is positioning for rate cuts. Gundlach said:
Quote
“I think either rates will stay high for longer, which is not my base case but I acknowledge that’s a possibility, but if the economy rolls over as I expect, the Fed is not going to cut rates 50 basis points, they’re going to cut rates 200 basis points,” he explained. “That’s what’s wrong with the cash strategy.”
I don't normally give much credit to billionaire pundits, as their incentives are not aligned with telling reporters what they truly think or what their real indicators of interest are. Yet there's a certain alignment here: something bad is going to happen.

5) Yield Curve Un-Inversion Suggests Recession Is Near. The beginning of yield curve inversions typically signal that a recession is on the way within the next 2-3 years, and that gets talked about a lot. Less talked about is the un-inversion of a previously inverted yield curve, which signals we're either in a recession or mere months away from one. Times in the past when 10y/2y yield curve un-inversion signaled fun times ahead included April 2007, December 2000, & October 1989. The yield curves inverted in the middle of the early 1980s recessions. As we've seen since April 2022, a lot can happen in the stock market in the months/years between inversion and recession. However, I suspect un-inversion is the clearer signal that a bearish trend will occur or continue in stocks, and interest rates are about to fall as everyone flees to safety. As shown by the 2nd set of charts of the 10y/2y and 10y/3m inversions, we're more than halfway back to zero - potentially only a few months.





6) Rapid Economic Growth Doesn't Mean Recession Isn't Around The Corner. Recessions start when economic growth reverses and goes negative, so by definition there is always growth before a recession starts. Therefore we cannot point to economic growth in a past quarter and say that performance predicts there won't be a recession in the near future. Not even when GDP comes in at a blistering 4.9% annualized rate like it did in 3Q2023. Here are some GDP growth rates for calendar years prior to the year when a recession started:
2019: +2.2%
2006: +2.9%
2000: +4.1%
1989: +3.7%
Similarly, today's low unemployment does not predict continued low unemployment. If anything, 3.9% unemployment means the economy cannot continue to grow due to a physical limitation - a lack of workers! Companies can poach workers from each other, but every time they gain a worker another company loses a worker. This behavior comes at no net gain to the overall economy. And we all know what the consequence of not growing is: It's shrinking. Unemployment arguably has nowhere to go but up, though it can stay depressed like this for years. After hitting the all-time low of 3.4%, unemployment is now up to 3.9% due to a rise in labor force participation. If the following chart wasn't labeled, one might mistake it for a very interesting and reliable recession indicator.


7) Transports are suffering.
I'm not big into Dow Theory and I don't watch ^DJT but I am paying attention to recent bankruptcies and layoffs in the trucking and logistics industries, amid talk of a freight recession. Meanwhile shipper Maersk just announced a layoff of 10,000 employees(!), saying their revenues have halved. If supply and demand are growing, then why aren't transportation companies?

8) Another Debt Standoff Could Occur. If treasury issuance was interrupted again this year, it would be the icing on the cake because it would drive demand into the remaining issues, pushing up prices and pushing yields down. Another shutdown would also greatly increase the odds of a recession.
------------
The FFR futures market anticipates a 100bp lower FFR by December 2024. I think we'll be 200bp lower by December 2025. I also think the distortions of unaffordable housing prices at very high mortgage rates, very high expected real rates available from treasuries, continued tight policy amid no widespread inflation problem other than housing, and a decade of investment in low-yielding activities will eventually resolve via defaults, unemployment, falling interest rates, business consolidation, and real estate fire sales.

Of course I might be wrong in a few ways:
  • The past 2 weeks could be a head fake and the yield curve could continue un-inverting via a rise in the long-term side. I'll know the pain if that is the outcome!
  • We might have entered a multi-year "higher for longer" regime JPow keeps guiding toward, and which the long-term bond market was seemingly coming to terms with just weeks ago. If we don't have a recession, this scenario could happen. The good news is one can hold 25+ year treasuries for a long time waiting for one's thesis to come true. It's not time-bound like an option play. From that perspective, and looking at the historical odds of recessions even in years not preceeded by 525bp of rate hikes, it's a very safe play. Also, my bonds will experience small capital gains due to the passage of time alone, because that brings the big cash flow at the end closer and reduces its discount. Confirm this feature using a bond price calculator.
  • The Fed could keep hiking the FFR and lifting the entire yield curve until the bitter end, sacrificing the economy to ensure the housing bubble is dead. Jamie Dimon has been talking about the possibility of FFR rate hikes to 6.5%. However even this painful scenario eventually ends with massive 1980s style rate cuts. Long-term bond investors will eventually sense the overreach and lower expectations appropriately.
  • Inflation could take back off again, especially if oil prices spike, or Chinese exports are interrupted. That could prop up long-term rates and lead to all of the above. However I doubt this because for every sector of the economy that isn't housing, 3.5% real rates and QT are taking a toll.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2023, 05:56:16 PM by ChpBstrd »

vand

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #981 on: November 04, 2023, 09:52:20 AM »
Probably not news to anyone who is able to read between the lines, but the tightening cycle is likely already over:

https://www.cmegroup.com/markets/interest-rates/cme-fedwatch-tool.html

- we are now in pause mode now
- slight upward bias over the next 3 months, so 1 more hike is possible (but not likely)..
- .. but that switches to a downward bias by summer 2024
- By Dec 2024 there is a 2% chance that rates will still be at current levels or higher


Personally, if I were a to have to bet, I would take the unders and betting that rates will be below 3.5% by Dec 2024.  A lot can happen over the next year, and we have seen how quickly the Fed will cut rates to zero if we enter a deflationary recession.

Risk/reward on that bet would be huge. Vault this for Christmas 2024.

What are your thoughts on the Bank of England, ECB, BoJ..?

The term structure is pretty similar across Fed/BoE/ECB notes, so can be applied to all.

That said, the overall probability is that we will have 1 more hike...
If you multiply the probability of it remaining at current level or lower between now and March the chances are very slim... the market is fairly certain that we're going to see 5.75%, it's just not confident what particular month the hike will happen (and yes I am aware that slightly contradicts my assertion that we're in pause mode... haha)...

Roughly an 80% chance that we are at top of the cycle now as the odds of a further hike have receeded.

There is a greater chance the next move will be down rather than up, and Xmas 2024 consensus is around 4.25-4.5%

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #982 on: November 05, 2023, 10:09:43 AM »
I figured this could be my last chance to get some fixed, so I picked up a 5%, 4-yr CD on Fidelity Friday afternoon. By Saturday eve, all of their new issue 3yr or greater CDs were sold-out. I have never seen that happen before.

FIPurpose

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #983 on: November 12, 2023, 04:35:36 PM »
September CPI Report

CPI-U up 0.4% in September
CPI-U @ 3.7% TTM
Core CPI up 0.3% in September
Core CPI @ 4.1% TTM

October estimates coming in from Friday:
CPI-U up 0.1%
CPI-U @ 3.3% TTM
Core CPI up 0.3%
Core CPI @ 4.1% TTM

Mixed messages from inflation reports continue!

ChpBstrd

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #984 on: November 13, 2023, 01:13:59 PM »
September CPI Report

CPI-U up 0.4% in September
CPI-U @ 3.7% TTM
Core CPI up 0.3% in September
Core CPI @ 4.1% TTM

October estimates coming in from Friday:
CPI-U up 0.1%
CPI-U @ 3.3% TTM
Core CPI up 0.3%
Core CPI @ 4.1% TTM

Mixed messages from inflation reports continue!
I'll agree with this estimate, but without much confidence due to the mixed messages.

The GSCI commodities index fell modestly for much of October. Crude oil started October at about $89.50 and ended at $77.68. The producer price index has been rising since June, but is still at negative YoY growth. The 3 month rising trend in PPI (most recently released Oct 11) might be what prompted JPow's recent hawkish commentary. It seems unlikely consumer prices can stay down if wholesale prices continue to rise, but I'm betting on a reversal in October.

Meanwhile, initial claims stayed roughly within the September range. This suggests aggregate demand stayed about the same across the last two months.

Rents continue to fall and vacancies continue to rise, suggesting the shelter component might be a wash between higher owner's equivalent rent and falling actual rent.


OER is said to trail housing prices by about 5 quarters due to measurement issues, so this component of PCE and Core PCE is just now approaching the peak of median home prices, which was experienced in 4Q2022. Yet we're seeing a more immediate impact on OER, when looking at its annual growth rate. I think we should expect to see this year's sudden deflation of housing prices impacting PCE and Core PCE as a disinflationary force instead of the main inflationary driving force, starting in 2Q2024.


The median house price in the US rose in Q3 but the median listing price per square foot actually declined 1.78% since June. Usually the price/sf plateaus in the 2nd half of each year after rising in the first half.

Inventories and real private inventories ramped up in the last quarter, per the data released last month. This could be read as a reaction to rising consumption or a misplaced bet on a strong holiday season.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #985 on: November 13, 2023, 09:08:57 PM »
Some fun charts, which partially explain why I'm buying the cheapest, lowest-yielding 30 year treasuries I can find.




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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #986 on: November 14, 2023, 06:38:57 AM »
September CPI Report

CPI-U up 0.4% in September
CPI-U @ 3.7% TTM
Core CPI up 0.3% in September
Core CPI @ 4.1% TTM

October estimates coming in from Friday:
CPI-U up 0.1%
CPI-U @ 3.3% TTM
Core CPI up 0.3%
Core CPI @ 4.1% TTM

Mixed messages from inflation reports continue!

Real numbers even better:
CPI-U up 0%
CPI-U @ 3.2% TTM
Core CPI up 0.2%
Core CPI @ 4.0% TTM

vand

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #987 on: November 14, 2023, 11:51:33 PM »
Bonds are rallying and CME fed watch tool now puts the chances of a further hike at little more than a tail end probability. 

Deflation here we come!

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #988 on: November 15, 2023, 07:24:29 AM »
Bonds are rallying and CME fed watch tool now puts the chances of a further hike at little more than a tail end probability. 

Deflation here we come!
Good! After two years of raising prices because mostly "fuck you!" a little deflation would be good for everyone.

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #989 on: November 15, 2023, 07:42:19 AM »
The Producer Price Index (wholesale prices inflation) was released this morning:
Quote
The Producer Price Index for final demand fell 0.5 percent in October, seasonally adjusted, after
advancing 0.4 percent in September, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. (See
table A.) The October decline is the largest decrease in final demand prices since a 1.2-percent
drop in April 2020. On an unadjusted basis, the index for final demand rose 1.3 percent for the
12 months ended in October.
Quote
Over 80 percent of the October decline in the index for final demand goods is
attributable to a 15.3-percent drop in prices for gasoline.


Perhaps the bounce since June, which was also seen in CPI, reflects the bounce in money supply which occurred when the Feds created the BTFP and bailed out banks last spring:

ChpBstrd

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #990 on: November 15, 2023, 08:41:06 AM »
Narrative: Draw an imaginary trend line through these data. The Fed will not cut rates until Core CPI is <3% unless unemployment is >5%.

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #991 on: November 15, 2023, 10:01:06 AM »
That's a very interesting chart.  What's the source?

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #992 on: November 15, 2023, 04:15:58 PM »
Narrative: Draw an imaginary trend line through these data. The Fed will not cut rates until Core CPI is <3% unless unemployment is >5%.

Anything could happen, but at least the past 6 months has been running at about 3.2% Core CPI annualized. Maintaining the levels of the past 5 months, we could be under 3 by June.

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #993 on: November 16, 2023, 06:48:33 AM »
That's a very interesting chart.  What's the source?
https://www.tradingview.com/news/forexlive:65e2deec2094b:0-where-do-unemployment-and-cpi-have-to-be-for-the-fed-to-start-cutting/
TL;DR - basically what the chart says

Anything could happen, but at least the past 6 months has been running at about 3.2% Core CPI annualized. Maintaining the levels of the past 5 months, we could be under 3 by June.
True. I think it could go even faster as owner's equivalent rent catches up with falling house prices, and amid restarting student loan payments. Inflation was plummeting at about a half-percent per month before the bank interventions in April injected a bunch more cash into the system.

Another perspective:
CPI ex-shelter has fallen from an annualized rate of 10.58% in June 2022 to 1.49% last month. That's an average rate of decline of -0.568% per month. At that rate, the rest of the economy except for shelter could be in deflation by February.

So what happens when there's simultaneously a real economy spiraling into deflation, and a housing bubble convincing the Fed to keep rates high?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2023, 07:13:27 AM by ChpBstrd »

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #994 on: November 16, 2023, 08:39:52 AM »
...

So what happens when there's simultaneously a real economy spiraling into deflation, and a housing bubble convincing the Fed to keep rates high?
...

This is the question for 2024.  Maybe not this exact situation (could also be deflation and unemployment stays historically low, rotating sectors of deflation/inflation, spikes in commodities, etc.).  Could also be another blip of bank failures and/or CRE collapse.  The Fed is still balancing QT in the background, as well as variable rates resetting higher, so keeping rates steady doesn't mean that the tightening is over...

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #995 on: November 20, 2023, 02:40:55 PM »
The Conference Board's Leading Economic Indicators Index is one of the most reliable recession predictors. It came in today with bad news, but not as bad as it was during the previous 6 months.

Quote
The Conference Board Leading Economic Index® (LEI) for the U.S. fell by 0.8 percent in October 2023 to 103.9 (2016=100), following a decline of 0.7 percent in September. The LEI contracted by 3.3 percent over the six-month period between April and October 2023, a smaller decrease than its 4.5 percent contraction over the previous six months (October 2022 to April 2023).

At this point the LEI has been signalling imminent recession since 2022, so if growth continues much longer it might start to lose credibility. Similarly, the yield curve inversions are being dismissed as rational market responses to either expectations of a recession or soft landing scenario, because rates get cut either way. The Sahm Rule has not yet been triggered, but it's very close. Overall, it's unusual for the LEI and yield curves to be so out of sync with unemployment.

Supporting the soft landing bull case are
 
I'm thinking through a hypothesis that different segments of the economy are having their own little recessions not in sync with the others, with none of these mini recessions being big enough to send GDP negative because they're not all occurring at the same time. The Bank Term Funding Program effectively ended the bank runs earlier this year, sent a surge of cash through the system, leading to an inflation bump and sending the NFCI in a more liquid direction. This bought time for financials to dig out some of their underwater bond exposures, prevented a housing crisis, kept the durable goods markets going, and prevented layoffs.

Basically the BTFP bridged the gap between the exhaustion of the last pandemic stimulus and today.

Meanwhile consumers' wages have started to take off, restoring their purchasing power after a period of uncompensated inflation and driving demand. These same consumers might have been suffering layoffs if not for the BTFP, and investors might be forgiven for having flashbacks from the resolution of a spring crisis in 2020.

Stocks rallied in November, and especially after the October CPI report, because investors believe they are getting ahead of the first expected announcements of rate cuts, and they are no longer believing in the Fed's "higher for longer" mantra. 

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #996 on: November 29, 2023, 09:21:12 AM »
I don’t agree with the article, but it’s good to keep my mind open to the possibility of one more rate hike in December - https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/bonds/bond-yields-fed-rate-hike-outlook-2024-pivot-cuts-2023-11

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #997 on: November 29, 2023, 01:44:16 PM »
I don’t agree with the article, but it’s good to keep my mind open to the possibility of one more rate hike in December - https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/bonds/bond-yields-fed-rate-hike-outlook-2024-pivot-cuts-2023-11

Not gonna happen. There's probably a few news agencies doing the Fed's dirty work and talking about further tightening, but the markets have called their bluff and written this chance down to near zero.

As it stands, its a coinflip whether rates will be held at current level or cut at the March 24 FOMC.  Personally I'd learn towards the "cut" scenario. 

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #998 on: November 29, 2023, 06:10:50 PM »
October PCE and Core PCE are due out tomorrow.  Looking at the data points falling off the series, I think we will be in for more "mixed signals," as Oct and Nov 2022 were 0.3% month-over-month, at or near the last 4 months' values.  But then we again get a bump up, with Dec 2022 at 0.4% and Jan 2023 at 0.5%.  If the new data just holds steady, we'll get another .3% down on the annual rate before the March 2024 meeting, at least.  If September 2023 was a blip high, we can get a lot more progress than that.

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Re: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions
« Reply #999 on: November 30, 2023, 01:24:12 PM »
Core PCE came in at 0.2% month-over-month, bringing the annual rate down to 3.5%.