Author Topic: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions  (Read 10203 times)

Bill_

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I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« on: April 17, 2018, 04:13:22 PM »
Okay, maybe I don't hate them....but I am getting tired of their quasi-religious cult.  I asked for vacation suggestions and Taylor told me to invest in the three fund portfolio....

I'm 40, wife is 38 and I am a fairly experienced investor looking to simplify and get attached to an asset allocation I can live with and not fiddle with constantly.  I have a taxable account (all BRK with low cost basis, not selling) plus between wife and I a 401k, two regular IRA, two Roth IRAs, a Simple IRA and an HSA that we don't touch.

Right or wrong, below are my investing beliefs and they are not likely to change:

I generally follow Warren Buffett and I prefer value stocks
I like getting paid dividends that I can redirect where ever I choose (as a business owner, I want to get paid)
I don't like bonds and the idea of getting a small coupon payment and just my original principal back years later
Stock market seems highly valued right now, bond market is also highly valued, but I accept they could go much higher (stocks that is)
If the market crashed I would like to have funds available to invest
I hate gold as an investment, it looks good on my wife

Outside of my taxable account (100% stock) my retirement accounts are too heavy into bonds (mostly short term and TIPs).  I do feel like I am vulnerable to listening to all the noise and changing my allocation too much and across all those accounts it is a huge hassle.  The two places I never change anything are my taxable account since the capital gains taxes would be so significant and my HSA where I pay high commissions (HSA is 100% in Vanguard Wellesley Income VWINX).

Looking for thoughts and suggestions.  Only the 401k and SIMPLE IRA are receiving new contributions, everything else is pretty much fixed.

Rob_bob

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2018, 05:10:09 PM »
I don't really see a question there.

You don't like bonds but have too much of them?  Lighten up on them, do you have any REITs?  How about international stocks?

Laserjet3051

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2018, 05:32:49 PM »
Do you have an Investment Policy Statement? If not, why? If so, do your comments above suggest that you are thinking about changing it?

Sounds like your not happy with your AA. A thorough review of all pertinent facts would be required to make suggestions for altering your current AA.

While I do not fully subscribe to Taylor's 3-fund portfolio, I do appreciate it's merits and LOVE BHs for what bits and pieces DO apply to me (many, but not all, do).

Bill_

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2018, 05:57:07 PM »
Do you have an Investment Policy Statement? If not, why? If so, do your comments above suggest that you are thinking about changing it?

Sounds like your not happy with your AA. A thorough review of all pertinent facts would be required to make suggestions for altering your current AA.

While I do not fully subscribe to Taylor's 3-fund portfolio, I do appreciate it's merits and LOVE BHs for what bits and pieces DO apply to me (many, but not all, do).

I do have an IPS, haven't looked at in a long time....just re read it and its exactly what I want to go back to, 85% stocks / 15% bonds, value tilted and mostly short term bonds.

Honestly feel like BHs excels in the personal consumer issues, but has entirely too much noise with investing.  They all preach like Taylor but I bet most don't follow what they teach.

Interest Compound

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2018, 09:25:58 PM »
I am a fairly experienced investor looking to simplify and get attached to an asset allocation I can live with and not fiddle with constantly.

...  I do feel like I am vulnerable to listening to all the noise and changing my allocation too much

I do have an IPS, haven't looked at in a long time....just re read it and its exactly what I want to go back to.

Going back to your old allocation, which didn't work for you the first time, doesn't sound like the solution you're looking for. One of the big factors that help people find success with index investing, is acknowledging the truth, you're incredibly unlikely to beat the market over the long-term. Once you come to terms with this, it's much easier to pick a plan and stick with it.

Based on the rest of your post, it doesn't seem like you've come to terms with this simple fact. Once you figure that out for yourself, everything else should fall into place.

SeattleCPA

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2018, 10:33:49 PM »
@Bill_, I have misgivings about the Bogleheads orthodoxy too, as detailed here: Bogleheads Investment Philosophy Flaws.

But I have to say that Taylor is actually a pretty darn good guy who's contributed a ton of good to the ongoing discussion of how we all best manage our nest eggs. He and his posse have, IMO, moved the discussion forward in a very positive way.

Two other comments: First, want to say that one thing I deeply appreciate about MMM community is the willingness to allow different points of view and to let us all engage in spirited debates about this stuff: Bogleheads-style investing... Jim Collins yes, Jim Collins no... real estate... entrepreneurship, dumb, entrepreneurship, smart... etc. This competition of ideas sharpens the logic and improves our collective thinking.

Second, I would heartily recommend two of David Swensen's books, Unconventional Success (which is a more sophisticated version of the Bogleheads strategy)... and Pioneering Portfolio Management ( which is about stuff the Bogleheads can't emotionally accept).

Bill_

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2018, 05:47:27 AM »
Thanks, I am liking Jim Collins.

Not bashing Taylor at all, he just has a funny way of interjecting the 3 fund portfolio into just about any topic.  The energizer bunny of the 3 fund, and I believe he follows it.

CorpRaider

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2018, 06:13:51 AM »
Are you looking for cheap(er), maybe tax efficient, ways to value tilt with a preference for dividends (dividend growth?) or shareholder yield? 

You said simpler, so I gather you're not looking to ad-hoc dividend growth invest/stock pick, right?

If you are fighting the temptation to tinker, maybe a balanced or target date fund, would help with that since you are outsourcing the allocation.

Or is that what you mean, that psychologically receiving the dividends allows you to more easily stand pat?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 06:29:39 AM by CorpRaider »

Car Jack

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2018, 07:00:15 AM »
Look at the demographics.  I'm greatly generalizing about the stereotypical member here:

Bogleheads:  58 year old former business owner, thinking of retiring in 4 years.

In the 3 fund because:  The equities provide growth.  The bonds smooth that out because retirement isn't far away and a 2008 crash would decimate an all equity investment and prevent retirement.  That could become a life decision that ruines all plans of ever retiring.

MMM:  30 year old Megacorp worker with $100k invested.  Knows social security won't exist when they retire and know they'll have to pay off the $1.5T in tax cuts just given to corporations and the Billionaires.  Wants to invest in the most aggressive things possible to make as much as possible.  Doesn't need bonds because retirement isn't for at least 20 years.  Perhaps believes the MMM hype of "Our family of 3 can live on $25k" a little too much.  Spoiler, you can't.  Well, you can if you've got a $400k/yr website as backup.

It makes sense to do 3 fund for both.  Set a % of bonds based on age and go with it.  Maybe it's age minus 30.  That way, as you approach retirement, a 2008 doesn't preclude you from actually retiring.


Dances With Fire

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2018, 08:05:15 AM »
Okay, maybe I don't hate them....but I am getting tired of their quasi-religious cult.  I asked for vacation suggestions and Taylor told me to invest in the three fund portfolio....

I'm 40, wife is 38 and I am a fairly experienced investor looking to simplify and get attached to an asset allocation I can live with and not fiddle with constantly.  I have a taxable account (all BRK with low cost basis, not selling) plus between wife and I a 401k, two regular IRA, two Roth IRAs, a Simple IRA and an HSA that we don't touch.

Right or wrong, below are my investing beliefs and they are not likely to change:

I generally follow Warren Buffett and I prefer value stocks
I like getting paid dividends that I can redirect where ever I choose (as a business owner, I want to get paid)
I don't like bonds and the idea of getting a small coupon payment and just my original principal back years later
Stock market seems highly valued right now, bond market is also highly valued, but I accept they could go much higher (stocks that is)
If the market crashed I would like to have funds available to invest
I hate gold as an investment, it looks good on my wife

Outside of my taxable account (100% stock) my retirement accounts are too heavy into bonds (mostly short term and TIPs).  I do feel like I am vulnerable to listening to all the noise and changing my allocation too much and across all those accounts it is a huge hassle.  The two places I never change anything are my taxable account since the capital gains taxes would be so significant and my HSA where I pay high commissions (HSA is 100% in Vanguard Wellesley Income VWINX).

Looking for thoughts and suggestions.  Only the 401k and SIMPLE IRA are receiving new contributions, everything else is pretty much fixed.

Bill, I'm right with you pal...(To some extent at least.) Everyone is different and if it works for you, stick with it.

I too follow Buffett, Graham, John Neff, and Owens who all tilt towards "Value". Dividends are beaten to death on many forms and get a bad rap IMO, even Bogle himself said, "you want to go to the mailbox on dividend day and on SS check day..."you want those checks to help pay for your retirement".

The 3-fund portfolio and rebalancing are great...If you follow through. I bet many don't, or do a poor job of it. I like putting as much as I can on auto-pilot so the DW will not have to worry about it in the future. (Or myself if health, mental ability start to decline etc.) Just a few thoughts. Cheers!

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2018, 08:24:25 AM »
Some Bogleheads mention "factor tilts", like the "value" tilt you mention.  I personally favor Larry Swedroe's books, who backs up his small/value tilts with historical data from multiple countries and long time frames.  If you look into one of Larry Swedroe's recent books, you might benefit in two ways:
* It sounds like your belief that value investing beats the market is already pretty solid, but it wouldn't hurt to see decades of stock market data backing up that belief.  It might provide additional help to stick with a plan during bad markets.
* "value" by itself is not enough to explain Warren Buffet's returns.  The investment academics finally caught up with Warren Buffet by introducing a "five factor" model of the market.  Two of those factors, quality and investability, are needed to explain Warren Buffet's market-beating returns.  Once you include those two factors in the model, Warren Buffet's returns fit the model.  Essentially, Warren Buffet discovered additional factors impacting stock returns decades before studies did, which is quite a feat.

I'm not clear on your bond allocation or where it's located.  If your income is too high, you could put tax-exempt bonds in the taxable account.  Having them separate won't make rebalancing easy.   Do you plan to increase your bond percentage as you approach retirement?
There will come a point where you have "enough", and it becomes more important to protect your retirement than grow it.

Tyler

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2018, 08:46:54 AM »
Okay, maybe I don't hate them....but I am getting tired of their quasi-religious cult.  I asked for vacation suggestions and Taylor told me to invest in the three fund portfolio....

Ha!  I love Bogleheads and have a lot of respect for Taylor but appreciate your sense of humor.  Although to be fair, the owner of this forum literally has "Join The Cult" on the front page so you may not be moving in the preferred direction.  ;) 

Based on your self-assessed investing preferences, you sound to me like the type of person who might appreciate a dividend-focused strategy like Dogs of the Dow or Dividend Aristocrats.  If you prefer index funds, you might look into long term treasuries, REITs, and large cap value funds with higher yields than your typical intermediate bonds or blend stock funds (a LCV fund would also check your box on value investing).  And if you truly want something hands-off but income-focused, you might look into VWIAX.  It's a conservative mutual fund that focuses on income stocks and bonds.  Although it's actively managed, it has been around forever and has a very low expense ratio competitive with many index funds. 

Hope that helps.

« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 03:07:02 PM by Tyler »

Laserjet3051

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2018, 08:51:50 AM »
@Bill_, I have misgivings about the Bogleheads orthodoxy too, as detailed here: Bogleheads Investment Philosophy Flaws.





Interesting read Seattle. While I do agree with your first assertion, that is, it's "Practically Impossible For Most People," as the investment philosophy/strategy requires savings as an input, I'm not sure I would qualify this facet as a "flaw." The Bogleheads philosophy is scalable, and those at the upper end enjoy more fruit, while those at the lower end (e.g. employing an identical AA/strategy) would receive less income in retirement. But in both scenarios, employing an identical strategy/AA, (but differing only in savings rate/capital input) still could enjoy similar, if not identical returns. So yes, I agree the saver, that only contributes $500 to his retirement account each year over 30 years, will likely fail to meet his retirement income demands, but that may not necessarily be because of a failed BH strategy, but rather due to not saving enough.

Just my thoughts; I do appreciate your insightful writing.

Dances With Fire

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2018, 08:51:56 AM »
Look at the demographics.  I'm greatly generalizing about the stereotypical member here:

Bogleheads:  58 year old former business owner, thinking of retiring in 4 years.

In the 3 fund because:  The equities provide growth.  The bonds smooth that out because retirement isn't far away and a 2008 crash would decimate an all equity investment and prevent retirement.  That could become a life decision that ruines all plans of ever retiring.

MMM:  30 year old Megacorp worker with $100k invested.  Knows social security won't exist when they retire and know they'll have to pay off the $1.5T in tax cuts just given to corporations and the Billionaires.  Wants to invest in the most aggressive things possible to make as much as possible.  Doesn't need bonds because retirement isn't for at least 20 years.  Perhaps believes the MMM hype of "Our family of 3 can live on $25k" a little too much.  Spoiler, you can't.  Well, you can if you've got a $400k/yr website as backup.

It makes sense to do 3 fund for both.  Set a % of bonds based on age and go with it.  Maybe it's age minus 30.  That way, as you approach retirement, a 2008 doesn't preclude you from actually retiring.

Car Jack, I believe your demographics are pretty darn close. I do fit the bogleheads stereotype with FIRE very close and my AA fits that well...AKA=more fixed income than the typical 30 year old. It works for us...

P.S. I enjoy reading Taylors posts and I have written to him a few times. He has helped a lot of people over the years.. He also has said, "there are many roads to Dublin". Choose an AA and write an IPS that will get YOU there.

frugledoc

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2018, 09:03:55 AM »
I have adopted the Bogleheads philosophy with open arms. 

The most important lessons are ignore the noise and treat all financial advisors like con men.


SeattleCPA

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2018, 09:42:08 AM »
@Bill_, I have misgivings about the Bogleheads orthodoxy too, as detailed here: Bogleheads Investment Philosophy Flaws.





Interesting read Seattle. While I do agree with your first assertion, that is, it's "Practically Impossible For Most People," as the investment philosophy/strategy requires savings as an input, I'm not sure I would qualify this facet as a "flaw." The Bogleheads philosophy is scalable, and those at the upper end enjoy more fruit, while those at the lower end (e.g. employing an identical AA/strategy) would receive less income in retirement. But in both scenarios, employing an identical strategy/AA, (but differing only in savings rate/capital input) still could enjoy similar, if not identical returns. So yes, I agree the saver, that only contributes $500 to his retirement account each year over 30 years, will likely fail to meet his retirement income demands, but that may not necessarily be because of a failed BH strategy, but rather due to not saving enough.

Just my thoughts; I do appreciate your insightful writing.

I don't think we really disagree very much... but I guess (to repeat my blog thoughts) some folks (if they can't discipline themselves to save) maybe need to consider employment where there's a defined benefit plan... or maybe someone needs to look at something like real estate where the illiquidity and forced saving helps one stay the course.

I was "pre-Bogleheads" i my retirement saving, but basically low-cost index funds was what I did. (When I started only the Vanguard 500 was available.)

SeattleCPA

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2018, 09:43:26 AM »

P.S. I enjoy reading Taylors posts and I have written to him a few times. He has helped a lot of people over the years.. He also has said, "there are many roads to Dublin". Choose an AA and write an IPS that will get YOU there.

+1

Bill_

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2018, 07:22:36 PM »
If you prefer index funds, you might look into long term treasuries, REITs, and large cap value funds with higher yields than your typical intermediate bonds or blend stock funds (a LCV fund would also check your box on value investing).  And if you truly want something hands-off but income-focused, you might look into VWIAX. 

I have VWINX (higher cost version of VWIAX) in my HSA that has high trading costs. 

Does anyone else buy long term treasuries?  Not so good for inflation, but really good for black swan / deflation events.

My bonds are currently 1-3 year treasuries and tips, but I am seriously doubting if tips will even work when inflation heats up.  Equities are probably more effective and not subject to government manipulation of CPI.

And yes, if I ever hit my number I would back off the risk substantially.

Tyler

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2018, 11:07:13 PM »
Ah -- I missed your initial VWINX note in the OP.  At least that shows I was on the right track.  ;)

BTW, you might try poking around Portfolio Charts for other ideas.  It focuses on low-key index portfolios, and maybe it will help you think about your options from a new perspective.

Rubic

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2018, 03:56:59 AM »
Does anyone else buy long term treasuries?  Not so good for inflation, but really good for black swan / deflation events.

I have some cash parked in various FDIC/NCUA insured accounts that return
anywhere from 3% to 4.5%.   (Lake Michigan, Old Missouri, First Advantage)

Warren Buffett has recommended an allocation of 10% treasuries for
his wife (90% S&P 500) when he dies.

Two year treasury yield is currently 2.4%.

AdrianC

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2018, 09:35:49 AM »
Does anyone else buy long term treasuries?  Not so good for inflation, but really good for black swan / deflation events.

I have some cash parked in various FDIC/NCUA insured accounts that return
anywhere from 3% to 4.5%.   (Lake Michigan, Old Missouri, First Advantage)

Warren Buffett has recommended an allocation of 10% treasuries for
his wife (90% S&P 500) when he dies.

Two year treasury yield is currently 2.4%.

Buffett's instruction is 10% in short term treasuries. This is what he thinks about long term bonds:

"If I had an easy way, and a non-risk way, of shorting a whole lot of 20- or 30-year bonds, I'd do it," he said. "But that's not my game, and it can't be done in the kind of quantity that would make sense for us," he said. "But I think that bonds are very overvalued. I'll put it that way." Warren Buffett on CNBC May 2015

ChpBstrd

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2018, 11:47:57 AM »
Simpler 2 fund portfolio:

90% VTI
10% bond fund of your choice

If your portfolio's performance has lagged, it is probably because you have a tilt toward dividend stocks, which tend to underperform. Cash in hand = lower appreciation.

If you (a) want to stay fully invested at all times, (b) think market values are a bit high, and (c) must fight off the urge to tinker, then you could sell covered calls on your VTI and possibly juice your returns by a percent or so. Just stay far out of the money and if assigned buy back in by selling puts.

This is obviously not applicable to your taxable and HSA accounts, but they're off the table anyway.

steveo

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2018, 05:30:01 PM »
@Bill_, I have misgivings about the Bogleheads orthodoxy too, as detailed here: Bogleheads Investment Philosophy Flaws.





Interesting read Seattle. While I do agree with your first assertion, that is, it's "Practically Impossible For Most People," as the investment philosophy/strategy requires savings as an input, I'm not sure I would qualify this facet as a "flaw." The Bogleheads philosophy is scalable, and those at the upper end enjoy more fruit, while those at the lower end (e.g. employing an identical AA/strategy) would receive less income in retirement. But in both scenarios, employing an identical strategy/AA, (but differing only in savings rate/capital input) still could enjoy similar, if not identical returns. So yes, I agree the saver, that only contributes $500 to his retirement account each year over 30 years, will likely fail to meet his retirement income demands, but that may not necessarily be because of a failed BH strategy, but rather due to not saving enough.

Just my thoughts; I do appreciate your insightful writing.

I read this as well. I honestly didn't see any flaws that are worth even mentioning. If people save and invest in a typical Bogleheads portfolio they will more than likely retire with enough money.

I don't see what else you can ask for.

Rubic

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2018, 05:47:40 PM »
Does anyone else buy long term treasuries?  Not so good for inflation, but really good for black swan / deflation events.

I have some cash parked in various FDIC/NCUA insured accounts that return
anywhere from 3% to 4.5%.   (Lake Michigan, Old Missouri, First Advantage)

Warren Buffett has recommended an allocation of 10% treasuries for
his wife (90% S&P 500) when he dies.

Two year treasury yield is currently 2.4%.

Buffett's instruction is 10% in short term treasuries. This is what he thinks about long term bonds:

"If I had an easy way, and a non-risk way, of shorting a whole lot of 20- or 30-year bonds, I'd do it," he said. "But that's not my game, and it can't be done in the kind of quantity that would make sense for us," he said. "But I think that bonds are very overvalued. I'll put it that way." Warren Buffett on CNBC May 2015

@AdrianC: I wasn't implying otherwise, but I can see where my post might
have caused confusion, so thanks for the clarification.

privatefarmer

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2018, 01:37:34 AM »
Okay, maybe I don't hate them....but I am getting tired of their quasi-religious cult.  I asked for vacation suggestions and Taylor told me to invest in the three fund portfolio....

I'm 40, wife is 38 and I am a fairly experienced investor looking to simplify and get attached to an asset allocation I can live with and not fiddle with constantly.  I have a taxable account (all BRK with low cost basis, not selling) plus between wife and I a 401k, two regular IRA, two Roth IRAs, a Simple IRA and an HSA that we don't touch.

Right or wrong, below are my investing beliefs and they are not likely to change:

I generally follow Warren Buffett and I prefer value stocks
I like getting paid dividends that I can redirect where ever I choose (as a business owner, I want to get paid)
I don't like bonds and the idea of getting a small coupon payment and just my original principal back years later
Stock market seems highly valued right now, bond market is also highly valued, but I accept they could go much higher (stocks that is)
If the market crashed I would like to have funds available to invest
I hate gold as an investment, it looks good on my wife

Outside of my taxable account (100% stock) my retirement accounts are too heavy into bonds (mostly short term and TIPs).  I do feel like I am vulnerable to listening to all the noise and changing my allocation too much and across all those accounts it is a huge hassle.  The two places I never change anything are my taxable account since the capital gains taxes would be so significant and my HSA where I pay high commissions (HSA is 100% in Vanguard Wellesley Income VWINX).

Looking for thoughts and suggestions.  Only the 401k and SIMPLE IRA are receiving new contributions, everything else is pretty much fixed.

well, as a boglehead, I can tell you that these two statements directly contradict what most (probably just about all) bogleheads believe which is probably why you're having friction w/ their philosophy. I do see a lot of comments on bogleheads forums about the stock market valuation but I think most generally believe that nobody, not even Schiller, can predict future returns (although Bogle did make a 4%/year prediction for some reason, maybe just to stir the pot). I personally don't put much weighting into the CAPE, for one you have to take into account current interest rates and when you do that the CAPE is much closer to the historical average and for another we just do not know what future earnings will be and trying to "outsmart" or time the market is generally a foolish idea.

the argument about dividends - I would just point out that if this money is for long-term investing, you might be wiser to let the money compound on itself w/ the least amount of tax friction (meaning less dividends). Dividends vs selling shares @ long-term cap gains rate are the exact same thing, except for the tax rate, and the fact that you can sell shares whenever you want whereas you have no control on when dividends will be paid.

anyhow, I think the main point is that bogleheads are generally all about passive index investing (because of the evidence), not stock picking, not trying to be warren buffett. I also think there are quite a few bogleheads on this forum so though you may try you can't escape us! ;)

harvestbook

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2018, 06:43:56 AM »
It's easy to meld a Bogleheads and MMM approach. I learn from both. My impression is Bogleheads are overall older and wealthier and tend to put most of the focus on the back end of life. That leads to good, low-cost, conservative planning. However, there's very little emphasis on frugality in other areas of life and the fact that budgeting works both ways--not just the money you have but the money you don't spend.

It doesn't make sense to me that being a Boglehead only works if you have a lot of money. Cutting fees means more money for you, and a simpler AA means fewer behavioral errors. But I am not totally sold on John Bogle because I don't get to live his life span (where the US dominated the world for his entire investing career and bonds were mostly in a bull market the entire time.) I tilt small and value and stay pretty light on bonds but keeping the costs down is the second priority after high diversification. I don't see the tilts themselves as being anti-Bogle, just variations on the pure dogma of the philosophy.


frugalecon

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2018, 07:16:55 AM »
@Bill_, I have misgivings about the Bogleheads orthodoxy too, as detailed here: Bogleheads Investment Philosophy Flaws.





Interesting read Seattle. While I do agree with your first assertion, that is, it's "Practically Impossible For Most People," as the investment philosophy/strategy requires savings as an input, I'm not sure I would qualify this facet as a "flaw." The Bogleheads philosophy is scalable, and those at the upper end enjoy more fruit, while those at the lower end (e.g. employing an identical AA/strategy) would receive less income in retirement. But in both scenarios, employing an identical strategy/AA, (but differing only in savings rate/capital input) still could enjoy similar, if not identical returns. So yes, I agree the saver, that only contributes $500 to his retirement account each year over 30 years, will likely fail to meet his retirement income demands, but that may not necessarily be because of a failed BH strategy, but rather due to not saving enough.

Just my thoughts; I do appreciate your insightful writing.

Adding my thanks to posting the link to the article on flaws. My favorite part of the BH message is "pay attention to investing costs." I have gotten people's attention when I have demonstrated the pernicious effect that paying a 1% AUM fee has over a 20-30 year investing horizon.

jinga nation

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2018, 10:00:47 AM »
@Bill_  you got a shit deal if Taylor didn't recommend a Toyota Corolla in your vacation plan. j/k.

I've had very good advice from people on Bogleheads about wife/mine portfolio, for my parents as well.

But I cancelled my account as they didn't like banter as we have on MMMForums, after a couple of warnings when I wrote feck, f**k, flock, mudderflicker, knobgobblers, douchebaggery (about AF/EJ), etc.

On Personal Consumer Issues, they're all luddites, each and every one of them old farts. One guy smugly refused my suggestion of using SecureFTP to transfer landscape photo files to his brother instead of shipping a hard drive across the country. Used to help a lot of them, but constant annoying bitching made me say fuck it and pack the fuck off that site.

RIP FwFinance.

OurTown

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Re: I Hate Bogleheads - Trying To Make Investment Decisions
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2018, 12:30:07 PM »
Meh, nothing wrong with the Bogleheads.  They are older than me and they have more money.  I have discovered that some people who are critical of low-cost indexing a/la Bogleheads are actually trying to sell me something.