Author Topic: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..  (Read 14971 times)

LateStarter

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #100 on: July 21, 2022, 05:33:12 PM »
Bitcoin may be scarce, but there is no scarcity of scarce things. New coins with scarcity features are issued all the time, just like collectibles are manufactured daily and marketed as collectibles.

Totally agree. The only thing that gives bitcoin scarcity is the algorithm. New coins, new algorithms...not scarce at all in the big picture.

What is scarce is scarcity that is controlled and (so far) proven immune to change, corruption, fakery, forgery, duplication, etc. despite the huge rewards available from a successful hack or a concerted effort from 'within'.

neo von retorch

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #101 on: July 22, 2022, 05:03:36 AM »
What is scarce is scarcity that is controlled and (so far) proven immune to change, corruption, fakery, forgery, duplication, etc. despite the huge rewards available from a successful hack or a concerted effort from 'within'.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

blue_green_sparks

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #102 on: July 22, 2022, 07:27:40 AM »
You can buy stuff with bitcoin. Here is a nice picture that went for $3,400,000.00 worth of bitcoin.



LateStarter

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #103 on: July 22, 2022, 08:02:50 AM »
What is scarce is scarcity that is controlled and (so far) proven immune to change, corruption, fakery, forgery, duplication, etc. despite the huge rewards available from a successful hack or a concerted effort from 'within'.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

Perhaps you can direct me to the article that challenges what I was discussing, ie. the stability of Bitcoin's scarcity ?

Otherwise, that link is irrelevant.

neo von retorch

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #104 on: July 22, 2022, 08:12:45 AM »
Just about any link there points to corruption within the world of cryptocurrency finance, but I see now you meant ONLY the scarcity of Bitcoin (and certain cryptocurrencies) is battleproof. Not sure... why that's worth arguing though, when the thread of the forum basically said "scarcity isn't really a virtue."

GuitarStv

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #105 on: July 22, 2022, 08:29:12 AM »
Just about any link there points to corruption within the world of cryptocurrency finance, but I see now you meant ONLY the scarcity of Bitcoin (and certain cryptocurrencies) is battleproof. Not sure... why that's worth arguing though, when the thread of the forum basically said "scarcity isn't really a virtue."

I have never ever had an issue with corruption, fakery, forgery, or duplication of the unique and scarce rocks I've found on the beach either.  Apparently this means I should have been hoarding them in the hopes that someone will pay me lots of money for them in the future instead of skipping them across the water.

ChpBstrd

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #106 on: July 22, 2022, 08:35:46 AM »
What is scarce is scarcity that is controlled and (so far) proven immune to change, corruption, fakery, forgery, duplication, etc. despite the huge rewards available from a successful hack or a concerted effort from 'within'.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

Perhaps you can direct me to the article that challenges what I was discussing, ie. the stability of Bitcoin's scarcity ?

Otherwise, that link is irrelevant.

Anybody can file for a copyright, trademark, or patent and obtain stability of scarcity. I think the issue is whether scarcity in itself equals value.

I.e. is every "limited edition" $80 t-shirt made by a small New York fashion company actually a good investment at $80 because it is scarce, or is it a rip-off because you can get the same utility from a t-shirt bought at Gap for a tenth of the price?

Antiques are getting more scarce every day as they break, burn, decay, and get thrown away. No new ones are being made, but every day one of the last remaining examples of a particular thing sell at yard sales and flea markets for a few bucks. Why buy one of 21 million bitcoins for $20,000 when you can have one of the rarest GE toasters made in 1949, or a set of crystal cocktail glasses sold right before Prohibition, for twenty bucks? If the answer is that you already have a toaster and already have a set of glasses, what does that say about the value of scarcity versus utility?

LateStarter

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #107 on: July 22, 2022, 08:43:54 AM »
Just about any link there points to corruption within the world of cryptocurrency finance, but I see now you meant ONLY the scarcity of Bitcoin (and certain cryptocurrencies) is battleproof. Not sure... why that's worth arguing though, when the thread of the forum basically said "scarcity isn't really a virtue."

My point is that controlled and robust scarcity is a rare thing, and is a virtue.

I don't think anyone is claiming that the crypto world is not rife with scams - it clearly is. However, that fact seems to be consistently misinterpreted as "all crypto is a scam" - and I don't think that's true.

I have never ever had an issue with corruption, fakery, forgery, or duplication of the unique and scarce rocks I've found on the beach either.  Apparently this means I should have been hoarding them in the hopes that someone will pay me lots of money for them in the future instead of skipping them across the water.

Bad news on your rocks. Should any of them ever show signs of acquiring any value due to their scarcity, forgeries, fakes and duplicates would probably soon appear.

LateStarter

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #108 on: July 22, 2022, 09:19:38 AM »
What is scarce is scarcity that is controlled and (so far) proven immune to change, corruption, fakery, forgery, duplication, etc. despite the huge rewards available from a successful hack or a concerted effort from 'within'.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

Perhaps you can direct me to the article that challenges what I was discussing, ie. the stability of Bitcoin's scarcity ?

Otherwise, that link is irrelevant.

Anybody can file for a copyright, trademark, or patent and obtain stability of scarcity. I think the issue is whether scarcity in itself equals value.

I.e. is every "limited edition" $80 t-shirt made by a small New York fashion company actually a good investment at $80 because it is scarce, or is it a rip-off because you can get the same utility from a t-shirt bought at Gap for a tenth of the price?

Antiques are getting more scarce every day as they break, burn, decay, and get thrown away. No new ones are being made, but every day one of the last remaining examples of a particular thing sell at yard sales and flea markets for a few bucks. Why buy one of 21 million bitcoins for $20,000 when you can have one of the rarest GE toasters made in 1949, or a set of crystal cocktail glasses sold right before Prohibition, for twenty bucks? If the answer is that you already have a toaster and already have a set of glasses, what does that say about the value of scarcity versus utility?

I can download copies of copyrighted movies, music, books, etc. etc. with a few simple keystrokes. I can buy fake t-shirts on Ebay in a flash. These things are not robustly scarce.

Perhaps I should expand my definition of controlled scarcity to include auditability. The problem with your GE Toaster is that nobody knows how many exist. Also, of course, should it ever start to acquire real value, the fakes would soon appear.

More seriously . . .

Robust scarcity is the fundamental requirement of anything intended to be used as a store-of-value.

Look at the classic sea-shell and glass-bead stories - they worked fine until their scarcity was destroyed. Scarcity was their defining characteristic.
Gold has some value because it's shiny and resistant to corrosion, etc. However, it is useful as a store-of-value ONLY because it is quite scarce.

Oxygen is the most desirable commodity on the planet, yet it's not expensive and it's useless as a store-of-value - simply because it's not scarce.

A Bitcoin, taking the most pessimistic view, has zero value in and of itself - it's a bunch of bits, big deal . . . . However, it could be useful as a store-of-value because it is very robustly scarce - and the entire set is available for scrutiny/audit by anyone at any time.

GuitarStv

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #109 on: July 22, 2022, 09:34:23 AM »
A Bitcoin, taking the most pessimistic view, has zero value in and of itself - it's a bunch of bits, big deal . . . . However, it could be useful as a store-of-value because it is very robustly scarce - and the entire set is available for scrutiny/audit by anyone at any time.

You're dismissing the most important part at the start.

The value of bitcoin doesn't come from it's scarcity (we've demonstrated that there exist quite a few scarce things with no value).  It comes entirely from the fad of people deciding to collect it.  If this collection fad ends, then it is no longer a store of value.  Poof.

There exist a great many reasons why this fad could end.  The environmental damage caused by this fad is significant, and currently is an almost entirely unpaid externality.  That could change.  People are fickle and they could simply decide to go with a different type of crypto (there exist thousands of identical duplicates, and quite a few slight variations on a theme).  Regulation could come from governments that make crypto a non-viable store of value (and since bitcoin is not anonymous, this wouldn't be all that hard to implement).  Or investors could simply lose interest in the idea of crypto as a whole.

Scarcity doesn't help any of those very real possibilities.

LateStarter

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #110 on: July 22, 2022, 10:42:35 AM »
A Bitcoin, taking the most pessimistic view, has zero value in and of itself - it's a bunch of bits, big deal . . . . However, it could be useful as a store-of-value because it is very robustly scarce - and the entire set is available for scrutiny/audit by anyone at any time.

You're dismissing the most important part at the start.

The value of bitcoin doesn't come from it's scarcity (we've demonstrated that there exist quite a few scarce things with no value).  It comes entirely from the fad of people deciding to collect it.  If this collection fad ends, then it is no longer a store of value.  Poof.

Absolutely not. Without robust scarcity, Bitcoin would never have accrued any more value (to anyone!) than any other random series of bits.

It's desirability / broad acceptance as a store of value is another critical factor (as it is for any store of value). No question.

There exist a great many reasons why this fad could end.  The environmental damage caused by this fad is significant, and currently is an almost entirely unpaid externality.  That could change.  People are fickle and they could simply decide to go with a different type of crypto (there exist thousands of identical duplicates, and quite a few slight variations on a theme).  Regulation could come from governments that make crypto a non-viable store of value (and since bitcoin is not anonymous, this wouldn't be all that hard to implement).  Or investors could simply lose interest in the idea of crypto as a whole.

There are many risks and many obstacles to overcome. However, I think Bitcoin is well positioned to survive and thrive. I might be right - I might be wrong. Nobody knows the future - we're all just making our best guesses.

The fact that Bitcoin has survived for 13 years out there, completely exposed, in the wild west of the internet is really quite something in my opinion.

Scarcity doesn't help any of those very real possibilities.

Except that, to a large extent, it is just that robust scarcity that Bitcoin investors are seeking.

Stimpy

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #111 on: July 22, 2022, 12:01:07 PM »
It's desirability / broad acceptance as a store of value is another critical factor (as it is for any store of value). No question.
No, the "desirability" is exactly the point being made.  That goes away....  Poof, no store of value.   After all Beanie Babies were broadly accepted as valuable and a as I was told a "store of value"  and "still are"  (Not my words), they are just waiting for it to come around again.   Yet, I can pick up almost all of them for less then $100.   What value was stored?  Broadly acceptable just means lots of people at the time use/like/have access too it.   Nothing more.

The fact that Bitcoin has survived for 13 years out there, completely exposed, in the wild west of the internet is really quite something in my opinion.
Congrats to BTC for coming to puberty.  It's an exciting time.   Doesn't mean jack thought.  Long term in the stock market may be 1 year.   But long term in the real world....  I'd say 13 years, while a valid argument, and impressive, is not quit the long term most people are looking for.  I agree it's not going to go away short of massive government regulation, but it's far from being robust.


Except that, to a large extent, it is just that robust scarcity that Bitcoin investors are seeking.
I think the scarcity of this has been covered to death.  It's about as scarce as my private rock collection.  It's unique and scarce with in, but as a whole...  there are a lot of rock collections out there.

Full disclosure, I do own some crypto. so I am not opposed but am very aware of the pro's and cons.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 12:55:50 PM by Stimpy »

LateStarter

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #112 on: July 22, 2022, 02:35:44 PM »
It's desirability / broad acceptance as a store of value is another critical factor (as it is for any store of value). No question.
No, the "desirability" is exactly the point being made.  That goes away....  Poof, no store of value.   After all Beanie Babies were broadly accepted as valuable and a as I was told a "store of value"  and "still are"  (Not my words), they are just waiting for it to come around again.   Yet, I can pick up almost all of them for less then $100.   What value was stored?  Broadly acceptable just means lots of people at the time use/like/have access too it.   Nothing more.

I think we may be at cross-purposes here.

I was mainly disputing the statement that "the value of bitcoin doesn't come from it's scarcity". Scarcity is a fundamental feature of Bitcoin. To a very large extent, it is the robust scarcity of Bitcoin that makes it desirable.

Compare: "The value of sugar doesn't come from it's sweetness. The value is in the fact that people want sugar.". It's kind of true in an odd sense, but it misses the key point that people want sugar BECAUSE of it's sweetness.

The fact that Bitcoin has survived for 13 years out there, completely exposed, in the wild west of the internet is really quite something in my opinion.
Congrats to BTC for coming to puberty.  It's an exciting time.   Doesn't mean jack thought.  Long term in the stock market may be 1 year.   But long term in the real world....  I'd say 13 years, while a valid argument, and impressive, is not quit the long term most people are looking for.  I agree it's not going to go away short of massive government regulation, but it's far from being robust.

Well maybe, but 13 years is what we have. It's enough for some and they will buy in, it's insufficient for others and they won't . . . . It's just opinions. Vive la difference . . .

Except that, to a large extent, it is just that robust scarcity that Bitcoin investors are seeking.
I think the scarcity of this has been covered to death.  It's about as scarce as my private rock collection.  It's unique with in, but as a whole...  there are a lot of rock collections out there.

Has it ? So do we all agree that robust and auditable [and easily-determined**] scarcity has value ?

The rock collection analogy is a bit silly. Every rock collection is obviously unique and, in fact, every rock is unique - but not in any useful / easily determined way. That's why we generally don't use rocks as a store of value. For clarity, I'll add 'easily-determined' to the description of the type of scarcity I'm referring to **.

I acknowledge that there are many other cryptos with Bitcoin-like features out there. However, Bitcoin has remained firmly head and shoulders above all of them SO FAR (for good reasons imo), and the longer it does so, the more established it becomes (imo). Will it stay there, and will it triumph ? We'll have to wait and see.

Full disclosure, I do own some crypto. so I am not opposed but am very aware of the pro's and cons.

I am too, I think. My posts on this topic are typically full of ifs and buts and reservations.

GuitarStv

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #113 on: July 22, 2022, 04:16:02 PM »
It's desirability / broad acceptance as a store of value is another critical factor (as it is for any store of value). No question.
No, the "desirability" is exactly the point being made.  That goes away....  Poof, no store of value.   After all Beanie Babies were broadly accepted as valuable and a as I was told a "store of value"  and "still are"  (Not my words), they are just waiting for it to come around again.   Yet, I can pick up almost all of them for less then $100.   What value was stored?  Broadly acceptable just means lots of people at the time use/like/have access too it.   Nothing more.

I think we may be at cross-purposes here.

I was mainly disputing the statement that "the value of bitcoin doesn't come from it's scarcity". Scarcity is a fundamental feature of Bitcoin. To a very large extent, it is the robust scarcity of Bitcoin that makes it desirable.

Compare: "The value of sugar doesn't come from it's sweetness. The value is in the fact that people want sugar.". It's kind of true in an odd sense, but it misses the key point that people want sugar BECAUSE of it's sweetness.

There are many cheaper identical (beyond brand name) alternates to bitcoin that provide an identical level of robust scarcity that use the same code.  The value of sugar would drop if there were many alternate, cheaper forms of sugar that worked exactly the same way and provided the same sweetness but were sold under a different brand name.

As you said, people don't want sugar because of the brand name - they want it for it's function.  People want bitcoin only because of the brand name.  There are a great many alternates that function exactly as well at doing the same thing that simply go under different brand names.

If robust scarcity is the cause of value in bitcoin, why are all of the other identically robust crypto not valued remotely equally?  I'd argue that 'robust scarcity' has little to do with the value of bitcoin.  Wild optimism on the other hand . . .

blue_green_sparks

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #114 on: July 24, 2022, 06:06:39 PM »
Some assessments of Bitcoin conclude it is not really built to serve as a scalable currency system but more of a store-of-value system. New/better implementations of block-chain-tech may realize great utility and usher in a new era.

Telecaster

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #115 on: July 24, 2022, 06:23:05 PM »
I can't figure out what monetary problem blockchain solves. 

gooki

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #116 on: July 25, 2022, 05:30:23 AM »
Transfer fees.
Proof of ownership.

GuitarStv

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #117 on: July 25, 2022, 07:25:20 AM »
Transfer fees.

Eh . . . transfer fees aren't 'solved'.  Right now the truly enormous energy waste that it takes for bitcoin and the blockchain to exist is being shouldered by miners who are willing to work for promises of bitcoin rather than pay.  When that scheme runs out (as it is designed to do) it still remains to be see if the fees that must eventually be charged actually end up being any lower than those that exist through a traditional banking route.

But it's also important to note that since crypto is largely useless as a currency, the majority of people who want to buy stuff with their crypto will have to incur significant transfer fees when they convert their crypto holdings into real money of some sort (and for the reverse).  Transfer fees for moving a billion dollars from the Cayman Islands to your drug dealer in the Bronx are very low.  Transfer fees to buy a bagel at your local coffee shop though?  Those tend to be significantly higher than traditional banking.  I don't know about you guys . . . but one of those scenarios seems like a much more common action.



Proof of ownership.

This is a pretty misleading statement.  'Proof of ownership' is both great and ridiculously terrible depending on how you look at the concept.  Crypto can always use the blockchain to prove the last ID of the semi-anonymous user who a particular bit of crypto was written to.  So that's kinda proof of ownership . . . but not really the way that a user of currency or store of value cares about.

The reason that cryptocurrency racked up more recorded fraud than any other financial instrument last year is that there is no proof of legitimate ownership.  There's a recording in the blockchain . . . so when someone manages to swindle someone else out of their crypto and get it written in the blockchain, the rightful owner has no recourse at all.  It's fantastic for thievery because that the 'proof of ownership' can be easily abused and exploited by bad actors, and then can be used against a person who has been defrauded to prevent them from getting their rightful money back.

theninthwall

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #118 on: July 25, 2022, 07:38:13 AM »
Transfer fees.
Proof of ownership.
I’m a bit of a Luddite when it comes to crypto, but if there is proof of ownership, why is there so much fraud? Can you ever ‘reverse’ a transaction that occurs without your permission?

blue_green_sparks

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #119 on: July 25, 2022, 09:54:26 AM »
After reading a few articles about web3. I guess the idea is to eliminate the "middlemen". For example, trading stocks without a broker, direct collection of royalties for music, games, films, TV shows art, etc. without having to employ collection services. Getting rid of Paypal. Fiat currency exchange services and so on....

I have no idea is this all is feasible; it seems like a libertarian dream. And well, regulations are not usually created just for fun.

ChpBstrd

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #120 on: July 25, 2022, 09:58:08 AM »
As Clayton Christensen illustrated in The Innovator's Dilemma, technological innovations that take over markets and disrupt existing ways of doing things tend to follow a standard route.

1) The innovation starts as an inferior product at a very high price that only meets the needs of a niche set of users.
2) The innovation improves along the axes of cost or quality at a faster rate than the status quo technology. The innovation's trendline of improvement is steeper than the status quo's trendline of improvement, so they are destined to eventually cross. This is the signal to invest in the innovation.
3) At some point the utility of the innovation equals the utility of the status quo technology. The status quo tech goes into steep decline.
4) Because the innovation has more potential for improvement, the utility of the innovation continues to grow faster than the status quo technology, at which point the status quo tech is obsolete.

WRT cryptocurrencies, we've been waiting a dozen years for step #1 to proceed beyond money launderers, fraudsters, and ransomware criminal niches. In that time, the US dollar based competition has rolled out physical credit cards with chip encryption, Apple Cash, Apple Pay, Google Pay, Cash App, Venmo, Zelle, etc. China's fiat currency is starting to roll out social credit features, which is sort of the opposite of privacy, but probably destined to grow fast. All this is before we even get started talking about digital dollars.

I think it's fair to ask: Is the cryptocurrency world improving services as fast as the fiat world?

Telecaster

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #121 on: July 25, 2022, 02:12:25 PM »
After reading a few articles about web3. I guess the idea is to eliminate the "middlemen". For example, trading stocks without a broker, direct collection of royalties for music, games, films, TV shows art, etc. without having to employ collection services. Getting rid of Paypal. Fiat currency exchange services and so on....

I have no idea is this all is feasible; it seems like a libertarian dream. And well, regulations are not usually created just for fun.

That's the idea, and while I am far from a blockchain expert, I am having trouble finding actual practical examples of blockchain solutions to existing problems.  I'm sure there are some, somewhere, but overall there doesn't seem to be much interest in it from a practical user standpoint.   

gooki

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #122 on: July 26, 2022, 01:49:30 AM »
Transfer fees.
Proof of ownership.
I’m a bit of a Luddite when it comes to crypto, but if there is proof of ownership, why is there so much fraud? Can you ever ‘reverse’ a transaction that occurs without your permission?

Because people are lazy, or stupid and either:

1 Rely on a third party to keep their wallet safe. And the third party gets hacked giving away their secret key. Or an insider runs of with all the coin.

2 Are fooled into giving away the secret key for their wallet.

3 Lose or forget their secret key.

And no you can't reverse a transaction. Because effectively your permission (secret key) is required for any transfer. Only the person receiving the Bitcoin can transfer it back.

By proof of ownership I mean no one can claim your bitcoin without knowing your secret key. No one can hack Bitcoin to change this. No government agency can freeze your bitcoin wallet.

Where as if a bank is hacked and the data altered or destroyed how do you or the bank actually prove how much money you had? It just becomes a he said she said situation.

FWIW I own no crypto. As this isn't a big concern of mine.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 01:55:01 AM by gooki »

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #123 on: July 26, 2022, 02:08:53 AM »
Yes that was the problem the Canadian government had when they wanted to freeze the accounts of donators to the trucker strike.  Bank accounts were easy enough, they could just confiscate your money, but the bitcoin wallets were something else.

GuitarStv

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #124 on: July 26, 2022, 07:58:31 AM »
Yes that was the problem the Canadian government had when they wanted to freeze the accounts of donators to the trucker strike.  Bank accounts were easy enough, they could just confiscate your money, but the bitcoin wallets were something else.

Not really.

The truckers who were receiving foreign funding for their illegal activates did have their bitcoin confiscated by police when ordered by Canadian courts.  Rather than contacting the banks to freeze the accounts, bitcoin's 'security' instead forced police to arrest and hold recipients until they handed over their passwords.

Confiscating bitcoin seems to have proven easy enough in practice.

Telecaster

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #125 on: July 26, 2022, 08:35:15 AM »
Where as if a bank is hacked and the data altered or destroyed how do you or the bank actually prove how much money you had? It just becomes a he said she said situation.

^ This is kind of my point.   I never even heard of such a thing happening.  When ever I ask someone for practical applications for blockchain they always come up with hypothetical applications, applications that already have a non-blockchain solution, or applications that have non-blockchain requirements.

I'm not saying such things don't exist, just that there are vanishingly few of them, at best.

misterhorsey

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #126 on: July 26, 2022, 08:02:21 PM »
After reading a few articles about web3. I guess the idea is to eliminate the "middlemen". For example, trading stocks without a broker, direct collection of royalties for music, games, films, TV shows art, etc. without having to employ collection services. Getting rid of Paypal. Fiat currency exchange services and so on....

I have no idea is this all is feasible; it seems like a libertarian dream. And well, regulations are not usually created just for fun.

The libertarian viewpoint seems to be inordinately sensitive to the costs of these middlemen, but adopts a willful blindness to the value that middlemen can offer and the reasons why they are there.

One example. I've seen the proposal of a decentralised ledger being used to record transfers and ownership of real property as being an example of a use case for the blockchain. This is touted as superior to current systems, which is typically a centralised register administered by government. I can't see how such a system would be any more resistant to fraud than a centralised system (cryptographic keys may be secure, but they can be fraudulently obtained, which is how most fraud seems to work). However, one area where it would differ from a centralised system would be the lack of any kind of legal or regulatory oversight rail to address fraudulent transactions - which is a serious drawback to such a system.

The real world is messy, full of exceptions, unique edge cases, and the current legal and regulatory framework in many countries is a best attempt at order for this state of affairs, but crucially is open to evolve as society evolves.  The laws we have devised and the regulatory framework that we have established are not perfect, and they come at a financial cost, and much transactional friction, but have been designed to address this complexity.  To me the libertarian solutions sometimes seem to be predicated on a model of the world that is too dysfunctionally simplistic to be of much real world use. 

Note, I'm not a luddite, blind supporter of the status quo, fan of rent seekers etc. If a particular middle man is extracting too much, creating too much friction, by all means reform it.

On a personal note, I come from a legal background and spent my professional life trying to order the mess or real life and commercial transactions into complex legal documents, but striving to make them no more complex than they needed to be.  I've recently started teaching myself a bit of coding and my eyes have been opened to how elegant and powerful code can be in solving problems, quickly and at scale.  What has struck me is there is a mindset that arises from the problem solving allure of code, that almost everything can be rendered into code, any problem solved.  Certainly some of the achievements of machine learning and AI are very impressive, but they have very stark and basic limitations as well which often aren't properly acknowledged in the midst of all the hype (see here if this interests you:  https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50374022-artificial-intelligence). But the tendency for this tech based, utopian, optimistic world view that sometimes seems to gets a little ahead of itself is probably as old as tech itself.


ChpBstrd

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #127 on: July 26, 2022, 08:45:58 PM »
After reading a few articles about web3. I guess the idea is to eliminate the "middlemen". For example, trading stocks without a broker, direct collection of royalties for music, games, films, TV shows art, etc. without having to employ collection services. Getting rid of Paypal. Fiat currency exchange services and so on....

I have no idea is this all is feasible; it seems like a libertarian dream. And well, regulations are not usually created just for fun.

The libertarian viewpoint seems to be inordinately sensitive to the costs of these middlemen, but adopts a willful blindness to the value that middlemen can offer and the reasons why they are there.

One example. I've seen the proposal of a decentralised ledger being used to record transfers and ownership of real property as being an example of a use case for the blockchain. This is touted as superior to current systems, which is typically a centralised register administered by government. I can't see how such a system would be any more resistant to fraud than a centralised system (cryptographic keys may be secure, but they can be fraudulently obtained, which is how most fraud seems to work). However, one area where it would differ from a centralised system would be the lack of any kind of legal or regulatory oversight rail to address fraudulent transactions - which is a serious drawback to such a system.

The real world is messy, full of exceptions, unique edge cases, and the current legal and regulatory framework in many countries is a best attempt at order for this state of affairs, but crucially is open to evolve as society evolves.  The laws we have devised and the regulatory framework that we have established are not perfect, and they come at a financial cost, and much transactional friction, but have been designed to address this complexity.  To me the libertarian solutions sometimes seem to be predicated on a model of the world that is too dysfunctionally simplistic to be of much real world use. 

Note, I'm not a luddite, blind supporter of the status quo, fan of rent seekers etc. If a particular middle man is extracting too much, creating too much friction, by all means reform it.

On a personal note, I come from a legal background and spent my professional life trying to order the mess or real life and commercial transactions into complex legal documents, but striving to make them no more complex than they needed to be.  I've recently started teaching myself a bit of coding and my eyes have been opened to how elegant and powerful code can be in solving problems, quickly and at scale.  What has struck me is there is a mindset that arises from the problem solving allure of code, that almost everything can be rendered into code, any problem solved.  Certainly some of the achievements of machine learning and AI are very impressive, but they have very stark and basic limitations as well which often aren't properly acknowledged in the midst of all the hype (see here if this interests you:  https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50374022-artificial-intelligence). But the tendency for this tech based, utopian, optimistic world view that sometimes seems to gets a little ahead of itself is probably as old as tech itself.

Awesome insights @misterhorsey . Code and law have a lot in common, both being the application of language as rules which are expected to cause a behavior-altering outcome and limit the unexpected loops or loopholes.  Both lawmakers and software developers get a rush out of the highly leveraged impacts of their keyboards, and how a law or an app - mere language written down by certain people - can affect the behaviors of tens of millions of people, sometimes saving lives and sometimes destroying them.

The post-libertarian tech bros of Silicon Valley like Elon Musk and Peter Thiel have a vision of a better world where code replaces law, and their corporations replace institutions of government. Control is admittedly necessary, but if it can be applied by assumed-neutral code and markets then at least we’re reducing the size of assumed-evil government. Those assumptions- neutral code/markets and evil government- reflect an underlying cynicism about the ability of people to solve problems, and by extension the rationale of democracy itself. This mindset makes sense to a generation who has never perceived  the US government as making anything better in all their lives.


misterhorsey

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Re: I don't understand all this talk about using BTC to buy stuff..
« Reply #128 on: July 28, 2022, 09:06:39 AM »
Interesting extracts of interviews with key web3 crypto investors/boosters attempting to provide a straightforward explanation of uses cases. One of the use cases for the blockchain proposed is recording the sale of real property, but breaking it down it doesn't real stand up to gentle and curious scrutiny.

https://newsletters.theatlantic.com/galaxy-brain/62ba500cbcbd490021aaef70/web3-crypto-movement-uses-marc-andreessen/