Author Topic: Holding physical silvers and golds  (Read 2494 times)

joshrosenthal5000

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Holding physical silvers and golds
« on: September 27, 2024, 11:34:22 AM »
I would like to allocate 10% of my total assets to physical silver and possibly gold.  This would be 25% of my liquidity assets.  I had held physical bar before but sold to buy my first house. 

I am not completely sure my true intention of holding physical gold and silver because a combination farmlands, livestocks, and stocks in food producers and grocers would be a better bet for the hard time that physical silvers and golds would be of actual use.  Otherwise, a regular roitine recession may be best countered with just holding indexes and few businesses with more resistance to recessions.

And then the questions of buying and selling silvers and golds.  Accumulation in small denominations is very costly.  Buying from online dealers seem extremely expensive and risky; I see new production coins being pitched as collectibles at rate many times exceed the weighted value.  Then how does one goes about selling without being ripped to shreds by two-legged wolves and hyenas disguised as bandits and jewelers? 


I thought about getting 10 10-oz silver bars to start.  Anything less won’t worth the effort.  The immediate rewards is being about to have 10 bars to take with along with cash if any civil unrests were to occurr.


Any thoughtful exchanges and wisdoms would be appreciated.

Rob_bob

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2024, 12:39:26 PM »
When you say 25% of liquid assets are you talking about your total investment portfolio or 25% of a cash or emergency type fund?

Many people order from online companies without problems, you need to find the one with lowest spreads.  Or shop local dealers and compare prices.

Don't buy anything new issues sold as collectible if the cost is higher than bullion coins.

If you are looking for something to carry with you as potential "cash" in a SHTF situation I would buy as much "U.S. junk silver coins" as I could i.e. old worn U.S pre 1964 silver coins that have no collector value. Buy dollars half dollars quarters and dimes.  Everyone recognizes them, it's easer to make "exact change".  Packing around a 10oz bar would be like having a $300 bill in your wallet.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2024, 12:41:49 PM by Rob_bob »

joshrosenthal5000

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2024, 06:10:30 AM »
25% of liquid assets no counting the house and paid-for automobiles an durable goods.  401k, pension, social security, ROTH, and IRA accounts wouldn’t be counted here as I can touch them yet.  So this is 25% of my taxable investment.  I want to see if it is feasible to have it in physical silvers and golds as these assets had been keeping up with S&P recently and had stood the test of time since men were in cages.

The durable goods are worth about $50k if sold individually over the course of months or even years under the fair market conditions.  If they go through estate sale, some shady characters would unbid at $5k.  I am in the process of selling them slowly now that I had moved past that phase of my life. 

The automobiles are probably worth less than $10k but are reliable transportations to get to jobs to make money and essential for survival and social activities. 

clarkfan1979

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2024, 08:42:23 AM »
Below is a story of two brothers that might offer some perspective.

On November 10, 2021, younger brother gave a hard sell to older brother to buy physical silver at $25/ounce. Younger brother has a wife, no kids and has a housing cost of zero because they live at their parents second homes when they are not occupied. Older brother has a wife, 4 year old with a primary house and a mortgage. Younger brother has a net worth of 50K, consisting of mostly physical silver bars (80%), some Iraqi Dinar and cash. Older brother has a net worth of about 1.1 million. Owns mostly rental real estate (80%), some retirement accounts and cash. 

Fast forward almost 3 years. Silver is actually up from $25/ounce to $31.60/ounce, which is an increase of 26.5%. However, to buy and sell physical silver bars, the total transaction costs are around 25% to 30% (including 6% sales tax), so there is no net gain. As a result, younger brother's net worth stayed the same at 50K. After 5 years of living at parents second homes while empty, they eventually ran out of goodwill and will now rent an apartment for $2100/month. This triggered a career change in an attempt to make more money. Previous job could not support $2100/month rent.

Older brother had a net worth increase of 1.1 million to 1.65 million with no changes in lifestyle or investing. Just making regular contributions to 401K, maxing out Roth IRA, paying down mortgages and collecting rent.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2024, 09:44:17 AM »
I would like to allocate 10% of my total assets to physical silver and possibly gold.  This would be 25% of my liquidity assets.  I had held physical bar before but sold to buy my first house. 
Would this have something to do with gold and silver gaining over +40% in twelve months?
To me this looks like chasing performance - you're buying whatever did best recently.

The cheapest gold fund I found was an "ETP", which differs from an ETF in ways I haven't researched:
https://www.ishares.com/us/products/306979/ishares-gold-trust-micro

Buying physical gold incurs a large premium when bought, and large discount when sold.  Buying shares of an ETP avoids that, while also allowing you to rebalance more easily.

Rob_bob

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2024, 12:34:37 PM »
I want to see if it is feasible to have it in physical silvers and golds as these assets had been keeping up with S&P recently and had stood the test of time since men were in cages.

Metals might be doing well now but that can change, and for a long time.  I bought gold some many years and then the price dropped around 50% and it took about 20 years for me to break even.  I did sell some of it at a profit but the return would be a pittance compared to stocks.  I still have some collector grade coins just because I like them but don't consider them an investment.

And yes gold and silver have been around thousands of years but the returns are just basically the rate of inflation over the long term.  I remember hearing once that the salary paid in gold to a Roman solder would be about the same or maybe it was less than a current army private makes.

Keeping some metals on hand for dire economic/social conditions isn't a bad idea, just don't try to make it your retirement investment.  Food, guns and ammo are good to have for bad times too, sure to hold their value!

JAYSLOL

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2024, 07:12:23 PM »
Personally I don’t think metals are a good choice for most people, however I do have about 6% of invested net worth between gold and silver, but I justify it partly because I buy small amounts and pay no premium at all, and often even buy a little under spot, as well as I consider it as part of why I can run a lean emergency fund, so it doesn’t affect the amount I would have in the market.  If you want to hold silver physically, 10oz generic bars from a reputable online dealer is probably the way to go, you’ll pay maybe 15-20% premium, and those same dealers will be happy to buy it back from you for right around spot or sometimes a little bit over like 2-5% if in high demand.

vand

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2024, 01:14:41 AM »
I want to see if it is feasible to have it in physical silvers and golds as these assets had been keeping up with S&P recently and had stood the test of time since men were in cages.

Metals might be doing well now but that can change, and for a long time.  I bought gold some many years and then the price dropped around 50% and it took about 20 years for me to break even.  I did sell some of it at a profit but the return would be a pittance compared to stocks.  I still have some collector grade coins just because I like them but don't consider them an investment.

And yes gold and silver have been around thousands of years but the returns are just basically the rate of inflation over the long term.  I remember hearing once that the salary paid in gold to a Roman solder would be about the same or maybe it was less than a current army private makes.

Keeping some metals on hand for dire economic/social conditions isn't a bad idea, just don't try to make it your retirement investment.  Food, guns and ammo are good to have for bad times too, sure to hold their value!

The problem with your experience of precious metals is that you are only looking at the metals in isolation, not metals as part of a portfolio. It's the portfolio as a whole that matters, not any individual component.  If your gold holding halved then, guess what? Other parts of your portfolio were more than making up for it.   And in the periods where gold has done really well, that has helped offset poor periods of performance for financial assets.

If you want diversification then don't be surprised when parts of your portfolio underperform as other parts overperform. That's the whole point!

Besdies that, you must be a pretty terrible investor, because it's hard to lose money on an asset that has gone up 10-fold over the last 25 years if you had just bought it and sat on it... like you're supposed to do with any investment.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2024, 01:18:54 AM by vand »

vand

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2024, 04:02:31 AM »
I would like to allocate 10% of my total assets to physical silver and possibly gold.  This would be 25% of my liquidity assets.  I had held physical bar before but sold to buy my first house. 

I am not completely sure my true intention of holding physical gold and silver because a combination farmlands, livestocks, and stocks in food producers and grocers would be a better bet for the hard time that physical silvers and golds would be of actual use.  Otherwise, a regular roitine recession may be best countered with just holding indexes and few businesses with more resistance to recessions.

And then the questions of buying and selling silvers and golds.  Accumulation in small denominations is very costly.  Buying from online dealers seem extremely expensive and risky; I see new production coins being pitched as collectibles at rate many times exceed the weighted value.  Then how does one goes about selling without being ripped to shreds by two-legged wolves and hyenas disguised as bandits and jewelers? 


I thought about getting 10 10-oz silver bars to start.  Anything less won’t worth the effort.  The immediate rewards is being about to have 10 bars to take with along with cash if any civil unrests were to occurr.


Any thoughtful exchanges and wisdoms would be appreciated.

Don't use physical with the intention of trading in and out of it according to spot price - it's not the right form of exposure for that.

Physical silver coins - large spread, but often you can get appreciation on the non-metal value of the coin over time as they become collectible. Buy with the intention of holding indefinitely, or at least as a last resort after you've sold everything else (SHTF)... and because you like physical. You will not care all that much about spot price when you own physicals.  Alternative selling strategy is to offload it in secondary market ie peer to peer, in small quantities at a time - you will be able to preserve the premium if you do this. As an example, I hate ebay, but try buying an American Eagle (a real one, not a fake one) on ebay for anywhere near spot - can't be done.


Physical gold coins - Much of what I wrote above for physical silver coins applies to gold coins also, but considered more liquid than silver as the spreads are smaller many people are often happy to sell their physical gold trhough dealers more readily and suck up a 3-4% slippage cost. Not something I personally advocate,as I think physicals should be held for the long term over ideally decades, rather than traded in and out.

Bullion gold/&silver bars/rounds - bullion is usually the cheapest physical you can get, ie non-govt issued rounds and bars, and your aim is to buy them for as close to spot as possible.  You shouldn't expect to see any premium appreciation on this form of physical. 

ETFs - If you want metal as a tradeable portfolio allocation that you can more precisely define, then this is the best way to get exposure.  Of course, it becomes just a number on your screen like any other financial asset, and you lose the "inertia against selling" that physical tends to hold.

Vaulted - Don't use it myself, but might be a good option.  You're supposed to actually own the metal and be able to take ownership of it, but I've never heard of anyone who's actually done this.

Gold/Silver stocks - Not a proxy for the metal, but you can us them for speculation. Should not be your only exposure as they have a history of underperforming the metals over a whole cycle.

Jewelery, etc - not for investment, but might look nice.


***
Ideal strategy imo is:

Core holding in physical gold to keep some money outside of the monetary system (gold superior due to small spread, easy storage)
Core holding in gold ETF for portfolio balancing purposes (because you don't want to have a boating accident with all your gold)
Tiny holding in physical silver (few coins for SHTF, and the coins are actually pretty beautiful)


Optional:
Small holding in ETF silver/white metals if you want wider PM coverage
Small exposure to miners if you want to speculate
« Last Edit: September 30, 2024, 04:04:57 AM by vand »

joshrosenthal5000

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2024, 05:38:24 AM »
I would like to allocate 10% of my total assets to physical silver and possibly gold.  This would be 25% of my liquidity assets.  I had held physical bar before but sold to buy my first house. 
Would this have something to do with gold and silver gaining over +40% in twelve months?
To me this looks like chasing performance - you're buying whatever did best recently.

The cheapest gold fund I found was an "ETP", which differs from an ETF in ways I haven't researched:
https://www.ishares.com/us/products/306979/ishares-gold-trust-micro

Buying physical gold incurs a large premium when bought, and large discount when sold.  Buying shares of an ETP avoids that, while also allowing you to rebalance more easily.

No, this does not have anything to do with 40% price appreciation of such commodities.  It is more of having physical assets that are almost maintain free and without ongoing expenses that can be traded at optimum time for some gain.  Golds and silvers had been assets for several thousands years so they are unlike to cease to be valuable.  And I think the idea of jewelry is a big waste of money unless one is far above being multi-millionaires and total jewelry expense is less than 0.05% of total liquid assets.  My personal jewelry is likely worth less than $500 on a good day for my $800k liquid assets is a good example.  I own a necklace and a ring and that is enough necklace and 1 ring too many.  I justify the necklace since it costs less than 10 cents to wear each day for the 25 years I have worn it.  I don’t have a clue how much it weigh but it is hefty and purchased as a gift for being accepted to a good school.

Premium and discount are the reason and major I haven’t done so as investment.  That and where, who, and how to sell when I actually need to.  If I need to sell physical silvers and gold, there would have been looting all over the cities and country and I can’t get out to safer heaven.  That means fiat money is worthless and trading an oz of gold for a loaf of bread is silly when I can trade a few oz of gold or handful of lead.

One example of good investment is selling it to private market for spot price, which is lower than the store price in normal time, recession and war included, and buyer saves on the taxes.

Under no exception that I would buy paper gold and silver.  It just doesn’t make sense as I can just buy equity in  conglomerate mining companies, which have been making me money hands over fist.

I had 15 oz of gold many years ago in 1 oz PAMP packaging.  It was a hasty purchase in 1998 in preparation for Y2K, which turned out to be a nothing burger to those who took computer 101.  I think only a single store in my city had receipt showing 1 Jan 1900 but credit card transactions went through.  I sold them all along with some durable goods in 2008 to generate down payment to buy my first house. 



« Last Edit: September 30, 2024, 05:47:01 AM by joshrosenthal5000 »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2024, 05:56:32 AM »
I want to see if it is feasible to have it in physical silvers and golds as these assets had been keeping up with S&P recently and had stood the test of time since men were in cages.

Metals might be doing well now but that can change, and for a long time.  I bought gold some many years and then the price dropped around 50% and it took about 20 years for me to break even.  I did sell some of it at a profit but the return would be a pittance compared to stocks.  I still have some collector grade coins just because I like them but don't consider them an investment.

And yes gold and silver have been around thousands of years but the returns are just basically the rate of inflation over the long term.  I remember hearing once that the salary paid in gold to a Roman solder would be about the same or maybe it was less than a current army private makes.

Keeping some metals on hand for dire economic/social conditions isn't a bad idea, just don't try to make it your retirement investment.  Food, guns and ammo are good to have for bad times too, sure to hold their value!

The problem with your experience of precious metals is that you are only looking at the metals in isolation, not metals as part of a portfolio. It's the portfolio as a whole that matters, not any individual component.  If your gold holding halved then, guess what? Other parts of your portfolio were more than making up for it.   And in the periods where gold has done really well, that has helped offset poor periods of performance for financial assets.

If you want diversification then don't be surprised when parts of your portfolio underperform as other parts overperform. That's the whole point!

Besdies that, you must be a pretty terrible investor, because it's hard to lose money on an asset that has gone up 10-fold over the last 25 years if you had just bought it and sat on it... like you're supposed to do with any investment.
Before you insult someone as "a pretty terrible investor", double check that you are not a terrible calculator and a terrible cherry picker.

Going back 25 years would be October 1999, when gold was $581.67/ounce.  Gold is currently $2673.40/ounce, which would be a gain of +360% in 25 years.  Not "10 fold" as you claimed.  That was pretty much the worst time to invest in stocks - right before the dot-com crash and then 2008 crisis... but stocks returned +628% from Oct 1999.

If you look at the past 50 years of gold prices, guess where the lowest price occurs?
23.5 years ago - very close to the "25 years" claim above.  The start date was deliberately picked to be a low point for gold.  Pick 20 years or 30 years and the performance is worse - which is why no other time frame was mentioned.

Be cautious of cherry picking when someone espouses gold.  The other favorite trick is to include 1970s performance, when the U.S. dropped the gold standard and gold's price rocketed upwards.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2024, 06:06:02 AM »
I would like to allocate 10% of my total assets to physical silver and possibly gold.  This would be 25% of my liquidity assets.  I had held physical bar before but sold to buy my first house. 
Would this have something to do with gold and silver gaining over +40% in twelve months?
To me this looks like chasing performance - you're buying whatever did best recently.

The cheapest gold fund I found was an "ETP", which differs from an ETF in ways I haven't researched:
https://www.ishares.com/us/products/306979/ishares-gold-trust-micro

Buying physical gold incurs a large premium when bought, and large discount when sold.  Buying shares of an ETP avoids that, while also allowing you to rebalance more easily.

No, this does not have anything to do with 40% price appreciation of such commodities.  It is more of having physical assets that are almost maintain free and without ongoing expenses that can be traded at optimum time for some gain.  Golds and silvers had been assets for several thousands years so they are unlike to cease to be valuable.  And I think the idea of jewelry is a big waste of money unless one is far above being multi-millionaires and total jewelry expense is less than 0.05% of total liquid assets.  My personal jewelry is likely worth less than $500 on a good day for my $800k liquid assets is a good example.  I own a necklace and a ring and that is enough necklace and 1 ring too many.  I justify the necklace since it costs less than 10 cents to wear each day for the 25 years I have worn it.  I don’t have a clue how much it weigh but it is hefty and purchased as a gift for being accepted to a good school.

Premium and discount are the reason and major I haven’t done so as investment.  That and where, who, and how to sell when I actually need to.  If I need to sell physical silvers and gold, there would have been looting all over the cities and country and I can’t get out to safer heaven.  That means fiat money is worthless and trading an oz of gold for a loaf of bread is silly when I can trade a few oz of gold or handful of lead.

One example of good investment is selling it to private market for spot price, which is lower than the store price in normal time, recession and war included, and buyer saves on the taxes.

Under no exception that I would buy paper gold and silver.  It just doesn’t make sense as I can just buy equity in  conglomerate mining companies, which have been making me money hands over fist.

I had 15 oz of gold many years ago in 1 oz PAMP packaging.  It was a hasty purchase in 1998 in preparation for Y2K, which turned out to be a nothing burger to those who took computer 101.  I think only a single store in my city had receipt showing 1 Jan 1900 but credit card transactions went through.  I sold them all along with some durable goods in 2008 to generate down payment to buy my first house.
You say you're not chasing performance, then mention mining companies "making me money hands over fist".  The largest gold miners ETF is GDX, which gained +33% in the past 12 months, beating the S&P 500.

But it trails the S&P 500 over 3 years, 5 years, 10 years and 15 years.  The gold miners have beaten the market over the past 12 months, but not longer time frames, which again seems like you're chasing performance.  I'd suggest if you can't beat the index, join it.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GDX/performance/
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/SPY/performance/

As to not buying paper assets, you can view clarkfan1979's post above for someone's experience with steep costs.

joshrosenthal5000

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2024, 11:31:31 AM »
I do not invest in gold mine.  I thought the point of investment is to make money and mining stocks I have were purchased at near bottom so I am entitled to broadcast about it and smile a little.  I also will never own paper gold and gold miner.  My mining companies do happen to have gold as a product but they don’t actively search for it, they just get it when digging for other minerals.  Same with diamond mineral being a contributor to profit but never the primary objective.

Beside of actual performance of physical asset, gold and silver have only one purpose of being an acceptable form of currency in very hard time.  However, there are other commodities costing much less to acquire but will be much valuable.  I own 203 acre of land adjacent to a state and federal wet land, which makes my property very fertile I lose really less than 3 acre to the mash but gain unlimited supply of water for the field where I grow wild corn and vegetables to let the pigs, chicken, and goats eat to save from food cost.  I love raising chicken as they can get their own food snd do not technically destroy land like pigs.

Effectively, 5 acres are not buildable and not usable for anything beside making a pond out of.  However, being next to wet land makes the remaining portion of the property and those of my neighbors very fertile.  I keep chicken, geese, pigs, and goats on in a fenced position.

Radagast

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2024, 11:43:44 AM »
I thought this through a few years ago and decided this is how I would buy physical PMs, but I never did so take that with a grain of salt.

I would not buy silver. It's not particularly valuable by weight or volume or the amount of time spent on it. Spreads are atrocious. It's low density makes it easier to fake. If someone mixes tin and lead to the exact density of silver and plates it with silver how would you know? Sure you could find out (do you have a plan for this?), but you would need to sit there and check each one. Do you even have interest in or time to do this? And not only you when you buy. You'll eventually need to persuade someone else of the exact same thing when you sell it. Do they want to spend that kind of time, and do you want to let them? Even worse if you end up with an assortment of bars and rounds and coins and trinkets which makes verification extra hard. A lot of the hypothetical benefit to PMs is low correlation to other assets. The costs and difficulty in transaction make it difficult or impossible to get any benefit from rebalancing.

I would buy gold coins of a single national mint so I'd only have to accustom myself to one thickness and diameter. For example Canadian Maple Leafs or US Eagles. Gold is hard to fake because of its density. Supposedly people use tungsten, but you can drop it on a  table and tungsten will thunk while gold will ring. That's why I'd only use a single national coin: maximum ease of verification for myself, and especially when it's time to sell. Sure Costco may have gold at a great price, but you eventually need to persuade someone else that it's genuine and they should accept it at minimal spread, which presumably would be easier with official mint coins.

Radagast

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2024, 11:45:10 AM »
I want to see if it is feasible to have it in physical silvers and golds as these assets had been keeping up with S&P recently and had stood the test of time since men were in cages.

Metals might be doing well now but that can change, and for a long time.  I bought gold some many years and then the price dropped around 50% and it took about 20 years for me to break even.  I did sell some of it at a profit but the return would be a pittance compared to stocks.  I still have some collector grade coins just because I like them but don't consider them an investment.

And yes gold and silver have been around thousands of years but the returns are just basically the rate of inflation over the long term.  I remember hearing once that the salary paid in gold to a Roman solder would be about the same or maybe it was less than a current army private makes.

Keeping some metals on hand for dire economic/social conditions isn't a bad idea, just don't try to make it your retirement investment.  Food, guns and ammo are good to have for bad times too, sure to hold their value!

The problem with your experience of precious metals is that you are only looking at the metals in isolation, not metals as part of a portfolio. It's the portfolio as a whole that matters, not any individual component.  If your gold holding halved then, guess what? Other parts of your portfolio were more than making up for it.   And in the periods where gold has done really well, that has helped offset poor periods of performance for financial assets.

If you want diversification then don't be surprised when parts of your portfolio underperform as other parts overperform. That's the whole point!

Besdies that, you must be a pretty terrible investor, because it's hard to lose money on an asset that has gone up 10-fold over the last 25 years if you had just bought it and sat on it... like you're supposed to do with any investment.
Before you insult someone as "a pretty terrible investor", double check that you are not a terrible calculator and a terrible cherry picker.

Going back 25 years would be October 1999, when gold was $581.67/ounce.  Gold is currently $2673.40/ounce, which would be a gain of +360% in 25 years.  Not "10 fold" as you claimed.  That was pretty much the worst time to invest in stocks - right before the dot-com crash and then 2008 crisis... but stocks returned +628% from Oct 1999.

If you look at the past 50 years of gold prices, guess where the lowest price occurs?
23.5 years ago - very close to the "25 years" claim above.  The start date was deliberately picked to be a low point for gold.  Pick 20 years or 30 years and the performance is worse - which is why no other time frame was mentioned.

Be cautious of cherry picking when someone espouses gold.  The other favorite trick is to include 1970s performance, when the U.S. dropped the gold standard and gold's price rocketed upwards.
Yup.

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2024, 12:16:13 PM »
Below is a story of two brothers that might offer some perspective.

On November 10, 2021, younger brother gave a hard sell to older brother to buy physical silver at $25/ounce. Younger brother has a wife, no kids and has a housing cost of zero because they live at their parents second homes when they are not occupied. Older brother has a wife, 4 year old with a primary house and a mortgage. Younger brother has a net worth of 50K, consisting of mostly physical silver bars (80%), some Iraqi Dinar and cash. Older brother has a net worth of about 1.1 million. Owns mostly rental real estate (80%), some retirement accounts and cash. 

Fast forward almost 3 years. Silver is actually up from $25/ounce to $31.60/ounce, which is an increase of 26.5%. However, to buy and sell physical silver bars, the total transaction costs are around 25% to 30% (including 6% sales tax), so there is no net gain. As a result, younger brother's net worth stayed the same at 50K. After 5 years of living at parents second homes while empty, they eventually ran out of goodwill and will now rent an apartment for $2100/month. This triggered a career change in an attempt to make more money. Previous job could not support $2100/month rent.

Older brother had a net worth increase of 1.1 million to 1.65 million with no changes in lifestyle or investing. Just making regular contributions to 401K, maxing out Roth IRA, paying down mortgages and collecting rent.

Oh man, I remember reading the story of your Iraqi dinar brother. Thanks for the update.

We have a bit less than 2% of our net worth in physical gold and silver. Much of this was a gift from my father-in-law who definitely has "prepper" tendencies. I have no reason to expect that this allocation is likely to lead to a higher net worth in the long run than if we bought more stocks/bonds instead. In the interest of family harmony I'm going to keep this gift for the purpose in which it was given, and I take comfort in the fact that it's likely to more or less retain its value even if it won't grow in real terms.

vand

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2024, 12:17:47 AM »
I want to see if it is feasible to have it in physical silvers and golds as these assets had been keeping up with S&P recently and had stood the test of time since men were in cages.

Metals might be doing well now but that can change, and for a long time.  I bought gold some many years and then the price dropped around 50% and it took about 20 years for me to break even.  I did sell some of it at a profit but the return would be a pittance compared to stocks.  I still have some collector grade coins just because I like them but don't consider them an investment.

And yes gold and silver have been around thousands of years but the returns are just basically the rate of inflation over the long term.  I remember hearing once that the salary paid in gold to a Roman solder would be about the same or maybe it was less than a current army private makes.

Keeping some metals on hand for dire economic/social conditions isn't a bad idea, just don't try to make it your retirement investment.  Food, guns and ammo are good to have for bad times too, sure to hold their value!

The problem with your experience of precious metals is that you are only looking at the metals in isolation, not metals as part of a portfolio. It's the portfolio as a whole that matters, not any individual component.  If your gold holding halved then, guess what? Other parts of your portfolio were more than making up for it.   And in the periods where gold has done really well, that has helped offset poor periods of performance for financial assets.

If you want diversification then don't be surprised when parts of your portfolio underperform as other parts overperform. That's the whole point!

Besdies that, you must be a pretty terrible investor, because it's hard to lose money on an asset that has gone up 10-fold over the last 25 years if you had just bought it and sat on it... like you're supposed to do with any investment.
Before you insult someone as "a pretty terrible investor", double check that you are not a terrible calculator and a terrible cherry picker.

Going back 25 years would be October 1999, when gold was $581.67/ounce.  Gold is currently $2673.40/ounce, which would be a gain of +360% in 25 years.  Not "10 fold" as you claimed.  That was pretty much the worst time to invest in stocks - right before the dot-com crash and then 2008 crisis... but stocks returned +628% from Oct 1999.

If you look at the past 50 years of gold prices, guess where the lowest price occurs?
23.5 years ago - very close to the "25 years" claim above.  The start date was deliberately picked to be a low point for gold.  Pick 20 years or 30 years and the performance is worse - which is why no other time frame was mentioned.

Be cautious of cherry picking when someone espouses gold.  The other favorite trick is to include 1970s performance, when the U.S. dropped the gold standard and gold's price rocketed upwards.
Yup.

Where are you getting your fantasy prices from?

Oct 1999 gold $307. The average price in 1999 was about $278.

Fact check your own bullshit before posting trying to disprove me!!
« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 12:19:37 AM by vand »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2024, 05:38:51 AM »
I want to see if it is feasible to have it in physical silvers and golds as these assets had been keeping up with S&P recently and had stood the test of time since men were in cages.

Metals might be doing well now but that can change, and for a long time.  I bought gold some many years and then the price dropped around 50% and it took about 20 years for me to break even.  I did sell some of it at a profit but the return would be a pittance compared to stocks.  I still have some collector grade coins just because I like them but don't consider them an investment.

And yes gold and silver have been around thousands of years but the returns are just basically the rate of inflation over the long term.  I remember hearing once that the salary paid in gold to a Roman solder would be about the same or maybe it was less than a current army private makes.

Keeping some metals on hand for dire economic/social conditions isn't a bad idea, just don't try to make it your retirement investment.  Food, guns and ammo are good to have for bad times too, sure to hold their value!

The problem with your experience of precious metals is that you are only looking at the metals in isolation, not metals as part of a portfolio. It's the portfolio as a whole that matters, not any individual component.  If your gold holding halved then, guess what? Other parts of your portfolio were more than making up for it.   And in the periods where gold has done really well, that has helped offset poor periods of performance for financial assets.

If you want diversification then don't be surprised when parts of your portfolio underperform as other parts overperform. That's the whole point!

Besdies that, you must be a pretty terrible investor, because it's hard to lose money on an asset that has gone up 10-fold over the last 25 years if you had just bought it and sat on it... like you're supposed to do with any investment.
Before you insult someone as "a pretty terrible investor", double check that you are not a terrible calculator and a terrible cherry picker.

Going back 25 years would be October 1999, when gold was $581.67/ounce.  Gold is currently $2673.40/ounce, which would be a gain of +360% in 25 years.  Not "10 fold" as you claimed.  That was pretty much the worst time to invest in stocks - right before the dot-com crash and then 2008 crisis... but stocks returned +628% from Oct 1999.

If you look at the past 50 years of gold prices, guess where the lowest price occurs?
23.5 years ago - very close to the "25 years" claim above.  The start date was deliberately picked to be a low point for gold.  Pick 20 years or 30 years and the performance is worse - which is why no other time frame was mentioned.

Be cautious of cherry picking when someone espouses gold.  The other favorite trick is to include 1970s performance, when the U.S. dropped the gold standard and gold's price rocketed upwards.
Yup.

Where are you getting your fantasy prices from?

Oct 1999 gold $307. The average price in 1999 was about $278.

Fact check your own bullshit before posting trying to disprove me!!
First, using your own numbers, you're still wrong:  2673 / 307 = 8.7x, which is not "10 fold"

Second, I got those prices from here, but I think my source was wrong.
https://www.macrotrends.net/1333/historical-gold-prices-100-year-chart
I apologize for my gold prices.  The following two sources show numbers closer to yours:
https://www.moneymetals.com/gold-price-history
https://nma.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/historic_gold_prices_1833_pres.pdf

...

Third, and most important, notice vand says nothing about being accused of cherry picking.  He won't tell you that 25 years ago was the lowest price of gold since the 1970s (when the U.S. left the gold standard).  He cherry picked 25 year performance to avoid revealing +5% to +7% performance over longer time periods.

2014 .. $1,266.06 .. +151% ... +10%/yr for 10 years
2009 .. $973.66 .. +174% ... +7%/yr for 15 years
2004 .. $409.53 .. +553% ... +9%/yr for 20 years
1999 .. $278.86 .. +859% ... +10%/yr for 25 years
1994 .. $384.16 .. +596% ... +7%/yr for 30 years
1989 .. $381.27 .. +601% ... +6%/yr for 35 years
1984 .. $360.65 .. +551% ... +5%/yr for 40 years

https://www.moneymetals.com/gold-price-history

Radagast

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2024, 09:52:30 AM »
I want to see if it is feasible to have it in physical silvers and golds as these assets had been keeping up with S&P recently and had stood the test of time since men were in cages.

Metals might be doing well now but that can change, and for a long time.  I bought gold some many years and then the price dropped around 50% and it took about 20 years for me to break even.  I did sell some of it at a profit but the return would be a pittance compared to stocks.  I still have some collector grade coins just because I like them but don't consider them an investment.

And yes gold and silver have been around thousands of years but the returns are just basically the rate of inflation over the long term.  I remember hearing once that the salary paid in gold to a Roman solder would be about the same or maybe it was less than a current army private makes.

Keeping some metals on hand for dire economic/social conditions isn't a bad idea, just don't try to make it your retirement investment.  Food, guns and ammo are good to have for bad times too, sure to hold their value!

The problem with your experience of precious metals is that you are only looking at the metals in isolation, not metals as part of a portfolio. It's the portfolio as a whole that matters, not any individual component.  If your gold holding halved then, guess what? Other parts of your portfolio were more than making up for it.   And in the periods where gold has done really well, that has helped offset poor periods of performance for financial assets.

If you want diversification then don't be surprised when parts of your portfolio underperform as other parts overperform. That's the whole point!

Besdies that, you must be a pretty terrible investor, because it's hard to lose money on an asset that has gone up 10-fold over the last 25 years if you had just bought it and sat on it... like you're supposed to do with any investment.
Before you insult someone as "a pretty terrible investor", double check that you are not a terrible calculator and a terrible cherry picker.

Going back 25 years would be October 1999, when gold was $581.67/ounce.  Gold is currently $2673.40/ounce, which would be a gain of +360% in 25 years.  Not "10 fold" as you claimed.  That was pretty much the worst time to invest in stocks - right before the dot-com crash and then 2008 crisis... but stocks returned +628% from Oct 1999.

If you look at the past 50 years of gold prices, guess where the lowest price occurs?
23.5 years ago - very close to the "25 years" claim above.  The start date was deliberately picked to be a low point for gold.  Pick 20 years or 30 years and the performance is worse - which is why no other time frame was mentioned.

Be cautious of cherry picking when someone espouses gold.  The other favorite trick is to include 1970s performance, when the U.S. dropped the gold standard and gold's price rocketed upwards.
Yup.

Where are you getting your fantasy prices from?

Oct 1999 gold $307. The average price in 1999 was about $278.

Fact check your own bullshit before posting trying to disprove me!!
The numbers M&1/2 gave looked wrong but I didn't check, however the time frame was obvious cherry picking.

Tigerpine

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2024, 10:59:30 AM »
@joshrosenthal5000 , is your intention in having precious medals to be an investment?  Or as a hedge against society breaking down and no one using dollars anymore (or even simple hyperinflation)?  The dynamics are very different.

If it is as an investment, things such as spreads and return on investment are very important, but become less so if society starts to use PM as a currency instead of the dollar.  In that case, the utility of gold would be more in how practical it is as a means of exchange and in how well you can verify other people's gold during trade.  I think @Radagast had good practical advice for this purpose.  I would add that you want to think about how you would determine how you would trust other people's PM after society breaks down and prepare in advance.

Also, if society were to break down, you would attract much more attention and trouble if word got out that you had gold bars than simply having some coins. 

ChpBstrd

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2024, 11:50:04 AM »
I am not completely sure my true intention of holding physical gold and silver because a combination farmlands, livestocks, and stocks in food producers and grocers would be a better bet for the hard time that physical silvers and golds would be of actual use.  Otherwise, a regular roitine recession may be best countered with just holding indexes and few businesses with more resistance to recessions.
You'll need to think about specific scenarios where physical PMs would be helpful, and then backtest them against analogous events across history and geography. IMO, the use case for physical PMs is extremely limited.

First, physical PMs are dead weight in the event of a routine recession. They cannot be economically bought or sold, so they do not deliver the benefits of rebalancing to a portfolio. I.e. If stocks drop 50% and gold goes up 10% you cannot rebalance your asset allocation without taking a massive haircut from some dealer or pawn shop. Therefore the argument that a small PM allocation would have improved portfolio performance in historical cohorts (using spot prices) does not apply to physical metal, because virtually any reasonable amount of gains would have been eaten up by transaction costs.

Second, in the vast majority of breakdown-of-society situations throughout history, you'd have been better off emigrating rather than trying to live off of physical assets like land, guns, PM's, and canned goods. Imagine yourself in Venezuela, Hati, Somalia, Yemen, Nepal, Zimbabwe, Mali, or Uyghur China trying to make this strategy work for 5-10 years. Could it work in these places? Or would you advise yourself in these situations to leave the physical assets behind and find peace/prosperity elsewhere?

Third, even in many "bad times" situations, financial markets survive and property rights are usually respected. The London Stock Exchange functioned throughout the World War 2 bombing of London - with only a one week closure due to shrapnel and falling buildings, while the German stock exchange actually gained as Hitler rolled across Europe. The French exchange actually resumed trading through German occupation and liberation by the Allies. Exchanges did permanently close during WW2, particularly in places like Warsaw or Romania that were overrun by Nazis and then Communists. Exchanges survived cataclysmic events in an era when communication and record keeping was done on paper and in physical locations. Today, only a tiny fraction of volume is traded by shouting people on the archaic stock exchange floors. So in a nutshell, an idea that "paper gold" assets like GLD or IAU would be inaccessible or that a loss of property rights could occur would have to also involve the United States being overrun by another country, having a Soviet-style civil war and communist revolution, or a nuclear war.

In those same scenarios, it would be exceedingly hard to maintain control over one's physical possessions. Who guarantees you own your land if there is no government to enforce property rights? What would stop the roving army/militants of whatever scenario from looting everything you own?

It's almost always a better idea to flee than to try to make the best of an unworkable situation, whether the problems are due to military activity, anarchy, or radiation.

Think about the Eastern Ukranian farmers who stayed with their land. Now they are under shelling and drone attacks, surrounded by landmines, looted, raped, and perhaps conscripted by the Russian soldiers, and with no economic prospects for miles around. The ones who left their physical assets behind are now working in Western Ukraine or other European countries, finding a measure of success and often sending money to support their home country.

So IMO the best insurance against a collapse of civilization would be:
  • a passport with plenty of time left on it,
  • the ability to speak a 2nd or 3rd language,
  • skills that would be sought-after by foreign governments,
  • enough liquid assets to pay lawyer bills and avoid imprisonment or deportation,
  • accounts in foreign banks, with the ability to transfer assets to those banks and withdraw from them once you arrive,
  • NOT owning a bunch of non-portable assets like real estate, cars, businesses, etc. because the prospect of losing these will persuade you to stay until it is too late to leave. Also, if you have a family, an ability to make a bold decision and travel together rather than fighting about it.
If you think about the holocaust targets who managed to escape death, for example, most tended to have enough liquid wealth and intellectual wealth to buy their way out of Europe (fees, tickets, bribes, foreign languages, wartime-applicable skills, ability to adapt to different cultures, etc). The survivors who stayed regretted it, lost more family members, and experienced more trauma and deprivation.

In the modern era, Russians are a good example. Those with wealth quickly set up foreign accounts in tax havens like Switzerland, Malta, or Cyprus, bought houses in places like London or Vancouver, and quietly slipped away as Vladimir Putin's totalitarian regime replaced democracy in the 21st century. Russians living in Western Europe may face hate, banking restrictions, and visa issues. But do you know what troubles they are not facing? They're not among the hundreds of thousands getting blown up by drones and artillery in meat assaults, and they are not starving/freezing in Siberian gulags either. They got out before it was too late, left behind family, friends, and physical property, and survived. They offer a valuable lesson IMO, and I've never heard a story of anyone smuggling gold out of Russia.

ROF Expat

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2024, 03:20:30 AM »
You'll need to think about specific scenarios where physical PMs would be helpful, and then backtest them against analogous events across history and geography. IMO, the use case for physical PMs is extremely limited.

The idea of preparing for collapse has come up before, and I'm very much in agreement with @ChpBstrd

I've spent time in and around countries where the rule of law and/or the currency collapsed, and I'm not aware of any situation where having a physical stash of gold or silver made any significant difference.  When the currency collapses in places like Venezuela and Zimbabwe, you don't find people buying stuff with gold and silver (there's a minor exception in extremely remote mining areas where small scale miners have historically been able to pay with raw gold that they mined themselves).  What do they use?  Fiat currency that's worth something, either US dollars or a currency from a neighboring country, that can easily be converted into local currency to be spent immediately or goods that can be traded.  I have friends in Western North Carolina who recently had problems when they couldn't use electronic payments or access an ATM after Hurricane Helene.  I doubt showing up with a Silver Eagle or offering to cut a chunk off a Maple Leaf would get them a tank of gas or a loaf of bread.   

If you really think that financial and/or societal collapse are enough of a possibility to make preparations, there are far better strategies than physical precious metals. 

America has thrived for about 250 years now, so I'm comfortable betting that things will be ok over my lifetime.  If I were really worried, I'd implement a plan as an insurance policy for myself and the next generation, but it wouldn't involve any precious metals. 

Owning precious metals as part of a well designed and diversified portfolio is an entirely different issue. 

vand

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2024, 04:17:30 AM »
While I agree with a lot of what has just been said about the perceived vs actual usefulness of gold in a societal collapse, it should not be underestimated either.

You say that people in Venezuela revert to USD rather than gold... fair enough, but have you asked what happens when the Dollar itself (and probably, by extension all the traditional reserve currencies) becomes the crisis.  It may not look as if that will happen any time soon, but it almost happened in 1980 - it can (and eventually will) happen again - maybe not in our lifetimes, but again that is not a bet I would be willing to put everything on. 

Also, your observations are almost certainly the result of huge survivorship bias... remember when WWII engineers looked at the bullet holes in planes returning from their sorties they observed that of the visible damage was being soaked up in the fusilage and wings, and less around the engine.. what was they correct conclusion they should have reached?

It's probably the same with gold in societal collapse - the data you don't see is probably the most revealing.  If you had own significant gold in Venezuela you'd have used it to get the hell out of dodge at the earliest opportunity, not to hang around and lord it over your mates.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2024, 04:19:44 AM by vand »

GilesMM

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2024, 07:57:55 AM »
“(W)ith an asset like gold, for example, you know, basically gold is a way of going long on fear, and it’s been a pretty good way of going long on fear from time to time. But you really have to hope people become more afraid in the year or two years than they are now. And if they become more afraid you make money, if they become less afraid you lose money. But the gold itself doesn’t produce anything” — Buffett, CNBC’s Squawk Box, 2011

ChpBstrd

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2024, 09:17:29 AM »
You say that people in Venezuela revert to USD rather than gold... fair enough, but have you asked what happens when the Dollar itself (and probably, by extension all the traditional reserve currencies) becomes the crisis. 
Reserve currencies sometimes lose their reserve status. The British Pound suffered 2-3 rounds of depreciation in the 20th century in response to war debt refinancing, and is now a minor currency in world trade. Before that was the Dutch Guilder, whose reign also ended due to warfare. In each case though, a new growing country's currency replaced the old declining country's currency - often over a span of decades - and so it was never the case that "all the traditional reserve currencies" failed at once. What would people use for transactions? They have to use some sort of currency to avoid the extreme inefficiencies of bartering, and so there's always something in use.

However, the scenario being proposed is a "crisis" in which the usual multi-decade shift to a new reserve currency is replaced by a sudden shift. Let's say this shift occurs over 5 years. The causes I could imagine might include a nuclear war, a barely-contained conventional war with China or Russia, a second U.S. civil war, or an asteroid / wipeout of California in the "Big One" earthquake.

A coup or overthrow of American democracy would probably depreciate the currency, but some other currency would have to have its shit together well enough for world markets to shift to it. Current candidates include the Euro, which seems like it could fly apart at any moment, or the Yen, currency of a country poised to lose a third of its population. The Chinese Communist Party could one day float their currency and embrace world capitalism, but the reign of Xi continues to push this possibility further into the realm of speculation. Cryptocurrency, meanwhile, remains a scam ecosystem where manipulated-higher price quotes lure people into wallet and exchange services that ... oops... always seem to get hacked.

IMO, the bigger threat/possibility is that electronic markets could evolve in a way that makes the concept of a reserve currency obsolete. Imagine being able to transact in any world currency using your phone, watch, or whatever device comes next, and it automatically applies the prevailing exchange rates to your diversified balance, which can be measured in any currency rather than being stuck in any currency. This is relatively simple stuff compared to blockchain, and I suspect the only reason it hasn't happened is the mental inertia involved with quoting things in dollars.
Quote
Also, your observations are almost certainly the result of huge survivorship bias...
...
  If you had own significant gold in Venezuela you'd have used it to get the hell out of dodge at the earliest opportunity, not to hang around and lord it over your mates.
I propose the standard for surviving and thriving through a socioeconomic collapse is to have at least a quarter of your purchasing power intact 10 years later and not facing a probable exposure to violence during that time. A strategy that delivers these results is to be preferred over a strategy that leaves one impoverished or barely escaping violence in most historical scenarios.

In this sense, it makes sense to look to the survivors and refugees to see how they grabbed victory from the jaws of defeat. We are less interested in the stories of people reduced to begging, petty theft, gang warfare, and prostitution in places where socioeconomic collapse happened, because whatever they were doing before the collapse was the wrong strategy in hindsight. Thus the story of a prosperous Malian/Venezuelan/Syrian/Argentine merchant family who lost everything and faced starvation, homelessness, or involuntary conscription is less interesting to me than the story of the refugee who escaped to the U.S. or E.U. and now owns a gas station.

I've never heard a story like this from the modern era where the refugee or survivor used physical precious metals to make their escape. More often, the keys to their success were physical fitness, language skills, occupational education, an ability to use a phone to move money around, communicate with family, and exchange currencies, having a high risk tolerance, and not being tied down by non-portable assets like real estate or businesses.

It may be a uniquely American perspective that anything can be purchased - even financial and personal security amid war and depression. The ads say just buy this one particular product and your anxieties will be relieved. Physical gold is marketed this way, with rationales that heighten the anxiety (the same rationales which have been repeated for decades). But for the product to perform as its buyers expect, the crisis would have to have very specific characteristics AND YET not be so bad that a competitive and honest business ecosystem didn't continue to exist so that the physical gold could be sold for whatever currency is being used in the scenario, without even bigger haircuts than the industry imposes on the trade of physical PMs right now. The requirement that a market be intact so that PMs could actually be traded for other people's work narrows down the applicable scenarios even further. And if the gold shops are still open, what are the odds that treasuries, iBonds, or forex ETFs are no longer trading?

ROF Expat

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2024, 09:23:43 AM »
While I agree with a lot of what has just been said about the perceived vs actual usefulness of gold in a societal collapse, it should not be underestimated either.

You say that people in Venezuela revert to USD rather than gold... fair enough, but have you asked what happens when the Dollar itself (and probably, by extension all the traditional reserve currencies) becomes the crisis.  It may not look as if that will happen any time soon, but it almost happened in 1980 - it can (and eventually will) happen again - maybe not in our lifetimes, but again that is not a bet I would be willing to put everything on. 

Also, your observations are almost certainly the result of huge survivorship bias... remember when WWII engineers looked at the bullet holes in planes returning from their sorties they observed that of the visible damage was being soaked up in the fusilage and wings, and less around the engine.. what was they correct conclusion they should have reached?

It's probably the same with gold in societal collapse - the data you don't see is probably the most revealing.  If you had own significant gold in Venezuela you'd have used it to get the hell out of dodge at the earliest opportunity, not to hang around and lord it over your mates.

Survivorship bias can be wrong, but it comes from experience.  Anything else is usually just speculation.  If you really think there's a significant chance of that kind of crisis coming to your country, you don't buy physical gold, you acquire income producing assets and rights to residency in a country you believe will be stable.  Smart Venezuelans who knew what might be coming didn't buy gold, they bought property and businesses in Miami.  Smart people in places like Brazil, Russia, Iran, or Hong Kong who are concerned about their futures don't hoard krugerrands, they buy properties and businesses in places like Miami, London, Dubai, Nicosia, and Vancouver. 

If I thought there was a significant chance of societal or financial collapse in my country, I'd hedge my bets by putting a substantial portion of my net worth into an investor or golden visa and property/business ownership in another country I perceived as more stable.  I'd also probably encourage my kid to attend University in that country.  I have friends (not in the US) who are concerned enough about their futures to do these things. 

If I thought things were going to go disastrously wrong in America, I'd buy a farmhouse someplace like Southwest France and transfer half my assets there. 

All this is, of course, just my opinion.  If having some gold and silver coins makes people sleep better at night, more power to them.  I've seen collapse or threats of collapse come enough times to have actually thought this out.  As an American, if you want to hedge your bets, you also have to ask yourself:  If I think America is not going to be stable, where do I go that will be better?  If I don't have faith in the US Dollar, what currency looks better to me?   
« Last Edit: October 02, 2024, 09:30:34 AM by ROF Expat »

Radagast

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Re: Holding physical silvers and golds
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2024, 09:08:50 AM »
Although to be fair, I believe Vand is in the UK and gold as pretty widely outperformed UK stocks for two or three decades now, and most subsets thereof.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!