Author Topic: Help! Pension or Index Investing  (Read 5322 times)

Druid

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Help! Pension or Index Investing
« on: October 15, 2014, 12:05:19 PM »
Hello everyone,

I want to help my life partner determine if she should invest in her pension. We live in San Francisco and she works for the UC system, which is currently taking out $400 a month for a pension.

I will probably be financially independent with a stash of over 1 million in the next 10 to 15 years. Ideally I would want to move out of state to a lower cost of living area, so I can maximize my retirement funds by lowering my living expenses. My girlfriend could potentially keep me in California for 25 years, so she can collect her pension(She's been at her job with pension only 3 years).

Considering the cost of living here I am trying to evaluate whether or not we as a couple would be better off with her opting out of the pension and her starting to max out an IRA.

I am hoping that some people can educate me on the advantages of a pension. From what I read it seems like a pension has higher management costs than a vanguard index fund. I assume that the reason they can pay their employees such high returns has to do with money taken from other taxpayers? So is it likely that an IRA can offer the same returns as a state run pension program?

It seems like the $5,500 a year would not help get my girlfriend to financial independence. It seems like a social injustice that a person can only contribute $5,500 tax free if their employer does not have a 401(k) plan. Am I missing something here? Would her best option be $5,500 in a tradition IRA and $5,500 in a Roth IRA? Or is the pension and a life time of service the way to go?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 12:24:36 PM by Druid »

beltim

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2014, 12:27:47 PM »
http://ucnet.universityofcalifornia.edu/compensation-and-benefits/retirement-benefits/ucrp/index.html

The best answers to these questions is in your life partner's retirement plan materials.  She may not be able to opt out of the system (check the plan materials).  The benefit calculations are in your plan materials and online.  She is definitely able to contribute to a 403b and 457b in addition to participating in her pension. 

On a fundamental level, there are several reasons pension benefits can seem generous:
1) Many employees never stay long enough to collect their pension
2) The employer contributes a large percentage of salary to help pay for your pension (like health insurance) - in the case of the UC system, 14% of your salary
3) Like Social Security, the system works well on average.  Those who die earlier than average help subsidize those who die later than average (and collect benefits for longer)

El Marinero

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2014, 02:51:36 PM »
I am familiar with the UC pension plan.  I would think twice about walking away from it.

If your partner likes her job, or her potential career path at the UC, the pension benefit is pretty appealing.  She has to work a total of 5 years (full-time equivalent) to vest.  After that, she can collect when she is 55  (I assume she is much younger than that).

The payroll deduction for the pension is only a fraction of the funding for the eventual pension - most of the money comes from the UC.  The pension can be viewed as (long) deferred compensation- if you leave early, you don't really get the full benefit.   If you leave before vesting , you do get your contributions back though, with interest.

The UC has a 403(b) plan, which has very similar rules as 401(k).  I'm not aware of any practical difference at the employee level.  Same annual maximum that can be tax deferred.  There is also a 457(b) plan which allows an additional $17500 deferral.

As a UC employee, she should be able to max out both the 403(b) AND 457(b) accounts on top of the pension.  It's a Mustachian dream, except that salaries do tend to be a bit lower than private industry, and annual raises are not as large (or get skipped altogether) some years.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 03:01:40 PM by El Marinero »

Druid

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2014, 04:10:16 PM »
It looks like if my girlfriend had an early retirement and started to collect on her pension at age 55 it would look like this for every 5 years she worked assuming a non changing income of $60,000...

0.011 * 5 years of service= 5.5% of her income/ $3300 a year

0.011 * 10 years of service=11% of her income/ $6600 a year

0.011 * 25 years of service= 27.5% of her income/ $16500 a year

With the 25 years of service scenario and retirement at age 55 would provide about $412,500 if she lived to age 80. However she would contribute $8,400(14 percent of $60,000) for 25 years of work which is $210,000. So the total value of the pension is about $202,500 after 25 years of service at the same job.

However if she contributed $708.33($8,400/12) towards a retirement account each month and earned a yearly rate of return of 6 percent she would earn $228,527, according to http://www.investor.gov/tools/calculators/compound-interest-calculator#.VD7sU7IRZh4.

I may be answering my own question here, but since the $228,527 would continue to compound interest on the balance even after age 55 it seems like she would be better off not being a member of the pension. While there is not a guarantee of a 6 percent return in the stock market there is also no guarantee that UC benefits will stay the same or that the pension will not become bankrupt. Ironically the UC system is relying on a similar rate of return to be solvent. I do not have a lot of experience in this area, so I would love for people to pick a whole of my "analysis" so I can learn more on the subject.

I definitely think my girlfriend should wait another year to be vested, but it seems like the pension is not the greatest thing unless you start pulling money out at age 65 and work 30 plus years..


« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 04:14:30 PM by Druid »

beltim

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2014, 05:08:21 PM »
It's only 1.1% per year if she retires and starts getting benefits at age 50.  That percentage goes up to a max of 2.5% per year if she waits until age 60 to start getting benefits.

beltim

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2014, 05:10:24 PM »
And again, she is eligible for both a 403b and a 457b, and she can't opt out of the pension.

GGNoob

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2014, 05:18:38 PM »
Either way, you should still both be trying to max out an IRA.

Sid Hoffman

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2014, 05:18:45 PM »
With the 25 years of service scenario and retirement at age 55 would provide about $412,500 if she lived to age 80. However she would contribute $8,400(14 percent of $60,000) for 25 years of work which is $210,000. So the total value of the pension is about $202,500 after 25 years of service at the same job.
...
I may be answering my own question here, but since the $228,527 would continue to compound interest on the balance even after age 55 it seems like she would be better off not being a member of the pension. While there is not a guarantee of a 6 percent return in the stock market there is also no guarantee that UC benefits will stay the same or that the pension will not become bankrupt.
...
I definitely think my girlfriend should wait another year to be vested, but it seems like the pension is not the greatest thing unless you start pulling money out at age 65 and work 30 plus years..

First off, you state retire at 55, live to 80.  Keep in mind the stats work out like this: "A woman turning age 65 today can expect to live, on average, until age 86.6. And those are just averages. About one out of every four 65-year-olds today will live past age 90, and one out of 10 will live past age 95." source

Also, are the two of you planning to get married or civil union?  Remember, current law (if it's even a problem) is not a guarantee of what law will be in 10, 30, or 50 years.  I ask because I know a lot of pensions have two different values: Single life, as well as Joint & Survivor benefit.  Even though the stats say that at least one person who lives to 65 is likely to reach 86, the odds are actually even greater that out of two people, at least one will reach an even higher age than 86.  A joint & survivor pension (if you remain married) would potentially be of greater benefit.

On the other hand, pensions can't be donated to charities or willed to others at end of life the way personal savings can.  I think it can be nice to have a small pension, so that between Social Security and your small pension, you can probably ensure good income once you do reach up into those upper ages if you start to run through your personal savings quicker than expected.  When in doubt, I guess consult a professional who is up to date on the latest tax law, social security calculations, and everything else relevant.

Druid

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2014, 06:11:16 PM »
"However if she contributed $708.33($8,400/12) towards a retirement account each month and earned a yearly rate of return of 6 percent she would earn $228,527" CORRECTION: The $228,527 amount would actually come out to $256,350(466,350-210,000) after 25 years of monthly payments of 708.33(same amount contributed to pension)and 6 percent returns.

I found out that she couldn't opt out after posting my original post. So now begs the question whether its worth us staying in California for her to reap the multiplier affect of 25 years of service. This is the value of the plan with 25 years of service and her pulling the money out at age 65 and living to 90.

(25 * 0.025)*60,000= $37,500 a year; or 937,500(for 25 year period)-210,000(8400*25 years)=$727,000 net value

However according to http://www.investor.gov/tools/calculators/compound-interest-calculator#.VD7sU7IRZh4(I hope this calculator works properly)., if she put put the monthly payments of 708.33 away for 25 years, she would have $466,350 at age 55. This amount with no other additions would compound(again assuming 6% returns) to 835,162 at age 65 assuming no withdrawals. Assuming consistent 6% returns and hopefully my proper use of the calculator the pension is the loser. The $835,162 less withdrawals would continue to compound while she lives and BEYOND. Even if she withdrew 4% of her money each year bringing her return down to 2% she would have $1,124,018.09 to pass on to her kids.

Again I might be missing something here but it appears pensions are overrated? Playing around with the calculator it seems like the money is better spent even if the expected return is 3% because of the compounding. I think the only way the pension would come out ahead if she was able to triple her salary later in her career.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 06:17:33 PM by Druid »

beltim

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2014, 06:44:25 PM »
Benefits from the pension max out if you wait to collect them at age 60.  There's no advantage to waiting until 65.

If you just want someone to check your math, then you need to start at age 60.  Using your figures of $8,500 per year contributed, assuming a level salary of $60,000, and 6% annual returns, I come up with an age 60 balance of about $624k.  Using the popular 4% safe withdrawal rate, this could fund retirement income of about $24,963 annually, or about 1/3 less than the pension.

Pensions look more favorable when you consider actual earnings trends.  The median 45-54 year old has a salary about 30% higher than the median 25 to 34 year old (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t03.htm).  If we model this with a 1% annual increase for 25 years, but contribute the same percentage, the number comes out:
Savings on own, age 60 balance: $684,643
4% SWR gives annual retirement income of $27,386
Pension: 0.025*25*80,070 = $50,044 annually

If your girlfriend gets better than 1% annual raises, the pension would be even better.

Druid

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2014, 07:12:41 PM »
Thanks beltim!

It appears to be 65 based on the UC benefit book I downloaded:

55 .0110
56 .0124
57 .0138
58 .0152
59 .0166
60 .0180
61 .0194
62 .0208
63 .0222
64 .0236
65+ .0250

Maybe UC system has a different type of pension?

The rest of your analysis is helpful, especially the inclusion of raises, which is the more likely scenario. Some positions currently have salary caps under the 80,000k figure and the UC system has been known for giving no raises is down economies, but shes smart enough where the 80k sounds likely.

The contributions would also go up as raises go up as well. This would increase the cost of the pension by 1% each year and the amount that therefore should be contributed to a 401(k) plan for comparison purposes. I think me doing an actual comparison factoring in an additional 1% each year of investing is beyond my capacity or at least my ambition. The adjustment of wage definitely impacts my analysis greatly, but it looks like its age 65 for the UC pension.

The only other thing to consider, as far as I understand, is that the 4%SWR would still leave $684,643 and 2% of growth that would still be in the bank when she was 90. If we divided the $684,643 by 30 years she would have another $22,821 to spend each year(not considering the 2% of additional growth)in the non pension scenario? I think non pension scenario still wins in a market with 6% returns? I did not check your "4% SWR gives annual retirement income of $27,386" figure.

I admit I am secretly pushing for the non pension option so one day I can get out of the high cost living which is Northern California :)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 07:36:50 PM by Druid »

beltim

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2014, 07:33:25 PM »
Thanks beltim!

It appears to be 65 based on the UC benefit book I downloaded:

55 .0110
56 .0124
57 .0138
58 .0152
59 .0166
60 .0180
61 .0194
62 .0208
63 .0222
64 .0236
65+ .0250

Maybe UC system has a different type of pension?

The rest of your analysis is helpful, especially the inclusion of raises, which is the more likely scenario. Some positions currently have salary caps under the 80,000k figure and the UC system has been known for giving no raises is down economies, but shes smart enough where the 80k sounds likely.

The contributions would also go up as raises go up as well. This would increase the cost of the pension by 1% each year and the amount that therefore should be contributed to a 401(k) plan for comparison purposes. I think me doing an actual comparison factoring in an additional 1% each year of investing is beyond my capacity or at least my ambition. The adjustment of wage definitely impacts my analysis greatly, but it looks like its age 65 for the UC pension.

The only other thing to consider, as far as I understand, is that the 4%SWR would still leave $684,643 and 2% of growth that would still be in the bank when she was 90. If we divided the $684,643 by 30 years she would have another $22,821 to spend each year(not considering the 2% of additional growth)?

That benefit schedule is for employees hired after July 1, 2013.  Since you said your girlfriend had been in the job for 3 years, that's a start date of 2011, which means you need to use the Tier 1975 Benefits.

My analysis included the increase in contributions to the pension system.  I've attached the Excel spreadsheet I used.

Druid

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2014, 07:39:03 PM »
Ok that does change a lot. Thanks!

Druid

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2014, 09:19:48 PM »
Thanks beltim!

It appears to be 65 based on the UC benefit book I downloaded:

55 .0110
56 .0124
57 .0138
58 .0152
59 .0166
60 .0180
61 .0194
62 .0208
63 .0222
64 .0236
65+ .0250

Maybe UC system has a different type of pension?

The rest of your analysis is helpful, especially the inclusion of raises, which is the more likely scenario. Some positions currently have salary caps under the 80,000k figure and the UC system has been known for giving no raises is down economies, but shes smart enough where the 80k sounds likely.

The contributions would also go up as raises go up as well. This would increase the cost of the pension by 1% each year and the amount that therefore should be contributed to a 401(k) plan for comparison purposes. I think me doing an actual comparison factoring in an additional 1% each year of investing is beyond my capacity or at least my ambition. The adjustment of wage definitely impacts my analysis greatly, but it looks like its age 65 for the UC pension.

The only other thing to consider, as far as I understand, is that the 4%SWR would still leave $684,643 and 2% of growth that would still be in the bank when she was 90. If we divided the $684,643 by 30 years she would have another $22,821 to spend each year(not considering the 2% of additional growth)?

That benefit schedule is for employees hired after July 1, 2013.  Since you said your girlfriend had been in the job for 3 years, that's a start date of 2011, which means you need to use the Tier 1975 Benefits.

My analysis included the increase in contributions to the pension system.  I've attached the Excel spreadsheet I used.


In case anyone else comments, it turns out since the vesting period is 5 years and that she has only worked under the UC system for 3 years she will not qualify under the more favorable Tier 1975 Benefits. That means that for our situation the multipliers are the ones I used above such as "65+ .0250"

@beltim Sorry if my post was misleading and I got you to waste your time, but some of your comments have been very helpful. I am curious if this interpretation is correct:

"The only other thing to consider, as far as I understand, is that the 4%SWR would still leave $684,643 and 2% of growth that would still be in the bank when she was 90. If we divided the $684,643 by 30 years she would have another $22,821 to spend each year(not considering the 2% of additional growth)?I think non pension scenario still wins in a market with 6% returns?"
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 09:24:35 PM by Druid »

beltim

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2014, 08:28:41 AM »
@beltim Sorry if my post was misleading and I got you to waste your time, but some of your comments have been very helpful. I am curious if this interpretation is correct:

"The only other thing to consider, as far as I understand, is that the 4%SWR would still leave $684,643 and 2% of growth that would still be in the bank when she was 90. If we divided the $684,643 by 30 years she would have another $22,821 to spend each year(not considering the 2% of additional growth)?I think non pension scenario still wins in a market with 6% returns?"

Usually the 4% SWR uses the excess return for inflation adjustment.  There's also an element of safety involved - on average you might return 6%, but there will be down years that you still have to make withdrawals to live on.  You can't take 4% plus 1/30 of the withdrawal without running out of money.

In general, the SWR will leave you with money at the end, while the pension is able to provide you with higher annual incomes.

Druid

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2014, 12:48:58 PM »
(Age)      (Principal Balance Beg)   (Annual Withdrawal)              (Balance - $50,00)   (Interest Rate)    (End Balance)
65           835,162                         50,000                                      785,162.63           1.06               $832,272
66           832,272                         50,000                                      782,272.39           1.06               $829,209
67           829,209                         50,000                                      779,208.73           1.06               $825,961
68           825,961                         50,000                                      775,961.25           1.06               $822,519
69           822,519                         50,000                                      772,518.93           1.06               $818,870
70           818,870                         50,000                                      768,870.07           1.06               $815,002
71           815,002                         50,000                                      765,002.27           1.06               $810,902
72           810,902                         50,000                                      760,902.41           1.06               $806,557
73           806,557                         50,000                                      756,556.55           1.06               $801,950
74           801,950                         50,000                                      751,949.94           1.06               $797,067
75           797,067                         50,000                                      747,066.94           1.06               $791,891
76           791,891                         50,000                                      741,890.96           1.06               $786,404
77           786,404                         50,000                                      736,404.41           1.06               $780,589
78           780,589                         50,000                                      730,588.68           1.06               $774,424
79           774,424                         50,000                                      724,424.00           1.06               $767,889
80           767,889                         50,000                                      717,889.44           1.06               $760,963
81           760,963                         50,000                                      710,962.81           1.06               $753,621
82           753,621                         50,000                                      703,620.57           1.06               $745,838
83           745,838                         50,000                                      695,837.81           1.06               $737,588
84           737,588                         50,000                                      687,588.08           1.06               $728,843
85           728,843                         50,000                                      678,843.36           1.06               $719,574
86           719,574                         50,000                                      669,573.96           1.06               $709,748
87           709,748                         50,000                                      659,748.40           1.06               $699,333
88           699,333                         50,000                                      649,333.31           1.06               $688,293
89           688,293                         50,000                                      638,293.30           1.06               $676,591
90           676,591                         50,000                                      626,590.90           1.06               $664,186
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 01:15:35 PM by Druid »

Druid

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2014, 01:05:25 PM »
The above chart attempts to compare a traditional retirement with 6 percent returns and the UC pension program where $708.33 is put away every month for 25 years for my 30 year old girl friend. The traditional retirements contributions end after 25 years, like the pension, and the traditional retirement fund ends up being $466,350 at age 65. In each scenario no withdrawals are made until 65 and in the traditional retirement scenario the balance grows to $835,162.63, again assuming 6% returns.

I am assuming that my girlfriend would end up with a salary of $80,000 in the pension scenario after 25 years of service. Her pension benefits would be...

$80,000 * (0.025 * 25 years of service) at age 65=Or $50,000

The above graph instead of focusing on a 4% SWR focused on matching the $50,000 pension payment my girlfriend would receive, and is represented by withdrawals on January 1st of each year. I then multiply the after withdrawal balance by the 6% market returns I am expecting.

Based on the above graph the traditional retirement contributions will result in $664,186 more value at age 90. I also believe this graph is biased against the traditional retirement plan, because it assumes that my girlfriend will be withdrawing all $50,000 on January 1st, instead of monthly withdrawals which would result in more interest being accumulated. It seems like the $664,186 would be a lot more in reality. It seems like the pension loses unless I calculated something wrong, which may happen since I haven't done anything like this before.

Sorry I got OCD about this :)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 01:19:39 PM by Druid »

beltim

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2014, 02:43:30 PM »
In theory, yes.  In practice, the market does not increase monotonically at a rate of 6%.  You can plug in your numbers at http://www.cfiresim.com/input.php and see that under the conditions of having a portfolio of $835,000 and annual withdrawals of $50,000, you'd run out of money in almost half of all historical simulations.

Druid

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2014, 04:24:20 PM »
Really this whole post is based on speculation, because there is so much uncertainty. I used the 6 percent figure because optimistic people say you can expect to earn 8% on average and anything less than 3% seems to pessimistic to me. At 4 percent the pension almost breaks even with the regular investment plan. Anything less than 4 percent and the pension comes ahead. This is based on my graph as I have not worked with FIRE simulator yet.

This article (http://newsroom.ucla.edu/dept/faculty/uc-borrows-2-7-billion-to-fund-pension-debt) and others I have read about pensions make me doubt that UC pension would be able to stay solvent for another 60 years. I think that if the economy didn't earn 6 percent returns over the next 60 years then the UC system would declare bankruptcy or increase the costs significantly.

Due to this uncertainty and my speculative analysis it doesn't make sense for me to encourage my girlfriend to stay in Northern California to pursue her pension. The cost of living is way to high in Northern California to make her pension plan worth while. Our relative salaries do not make up for the cost of living, and my guess is in cheaper states we would be able to have similar(maybe slightly less) salaries and save a lot more. The main problem is my retirement will be stunted in Northern California and as a result our savings as a couple will be way lower than if we moved to a lower cost of living area. If the pension is not a clear winner then we are better off moving to a state where we can max out our IRA's and 401(k)'s.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 04:31:41 PM by Druid »

El Marinero

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2014, 11:28:17 AM »
Really this whole post is based on speculation, because there is so much uncertainty. I used the 6 percent figure because optimistic people say you can expect to earn 8% on average and anything less than 3% seems to pessimistic to me. At 4 percent the pension almost breaks even with the regular investment plan. Anything less than 4 percent and the pension comes ahead. This is based on my graph as I have not worked with FIRE simulator yet.

This article (http://newsroom.ucla.edu/dept/faculty/uc-borrows-2-7-billion-to-fund-pension-debt) and others I have read about pensions make me doubt that UC pension would be able to stay solvent for another 60 years. I think that if the economy didn't earn 6 percent returns over the next 60 years then the UC system would declare bankruptcy or increase the costs significantly.

Due to this uncertainty and my speculative analysis it doesn't make sense for me to encourage my girlfriend to stay in Northern California to pursue her pension. The cost of living is way to high in Northern California to make her pension plan worth while. Our relative salaries do not make up for the cost of living, and my guess is in cheaper states we would be able to have similar(maybe slightly less) salaries and save a lot more. The main problem is my retirement will be stunted in Northern California and as a result our savings as a couple will be way lower than if we moved to a lower cost of living area. If the pension is not a clear winner then we are better off moving to a state where we can max out our IRA's and 401(k)'s.


You seem to be determined to urge your girlfriend to quit her job.  Beltim has given you some excellent information, and I don't think you want to hear it.

Makes me sad.


wtjbatman

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2014, 04:40:31 PM »
Due to this uncertainty and my speculative analysis it doesn't make sense for me to encourage my girlfriend to stay in Northern California to pursue her pension.

Good thing she has you around to tell her what to do.

Druid

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Re: Help! Pension or Index Investing
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2014, 08:59:00 PM »
Really guys? Or are these feminist comments.

I spent a couple of hours doing my analysis for both of our benefit. If she wants to stay in California to pursue her pension that is ok with me, and I have already said that I would make that sacrifice(as a financial sacrifice this is probably equal to $15,000 less savings on my part and another $10,000 on her end). We are both eager to live in different locations during our life, and she recently wanted to move to Portland this year.

This posts purpose was for me to find more information to help her decide how she can best contribute to our retirement.  I was simply looking for overwhelming evidence that supports the benefit of a pension, since she has been dissatisfied with her job and she has a higher earning potential. I was actually the one in the relationship that wanted her to maintain the pension, and she is the one who is considering taking other opportunities in the next few years. Beltim provided great information, but to be blunt the chances of earning 6 percent returns are much greater than the UC pension being around in 60 years(considering most pensions are relying on 8 percent returns):

http://americasmarkets.usatoday.com/2014/04/09/report-85-of-pensions-could-fail-in-30-years/

My retirement assets are worth close to 2.5 million dollars(I was uncomfortable advertising this amount earlier so I used 1 million). I am planning for both of us to enjoy early retirement with mostly my wealth. Her retirement savings are 4 years vested in a pension plan that is currently in debt. It is sad indeed, that I want to move her out of state so we can both retire in 10 to 15 years in our early/mid 40's. You guys are right I should enpower her to work 25 to 35 more years in the UC system with raises that equal inflation, while the high cost of living of Northern California impedes my own savings. That way she can be a proud independent woman; instead of a happy one. Good luck on your future comments that pass judgement with out all of the facts.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 10:23:10 PM by Druid »