Author Topic: Gold  (Read 9978 times)

paulmose0

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Gold
« on: March 08, 2024, 09:42:27 AM »
Thoughts on gold price? 

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4195
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Gold
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2024, 09:57:29 AM »
Yes, gold sucks as an investment regardless of the price. 

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18174
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Gold
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2024, 11:23:27 AM »
wrong sub-forum.

maybe off topic

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8310
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Gold
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2024, 11:36:23 AM »
There's a subset of the investor population that is convinced inflation will come back. They are the ones bidding up gold and real estate.

Meanwhile another subset is concentrating in growth stocks, which will do well if inflation does not come back and discount rates fall.

To some extent these groups overlap in a Venn diagram, which reflects a weird perversion of the barbell strategy.

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23760
  • Age: 67
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Gold
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2024, 11:45:44 AM »
wrong sub-forum.

maybe off topic
Agreed.

Yes, gold sucks as an investment regardless of the price. 
Agreed.

I bought my first Kugerrand while I was still in college and living at home, in the 1970's. My mom put it in her jewelry drawer for safekeeping. My sibs threw a party. Afterwards, the jewelry was fine, but the Kugerrand was gone. It was devastating at the time, when minimum wage was $2/hr. In the long run, it was a cheap lesson.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8310
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Gold
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2024, 11:48:52 AM »
I bought my first Kugerrand while I was still in college and living at home, in the 1970's. My mom put it in her jewelry drawer for safekeeping. My sibs threw a party. Afterwards, the jewelry was fine, but the Kugerrand was gone. It was devastating at the time, when minimum wage was $2/hr. In the long run, it was a cheap lesson.
Your -100% return does not factor into the price chart, but it is a very real possibility.

wrong sub-forum.

maybe off topic
This is in Investor Alley. Was it moved?

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23760
  • Age: 67
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Gold
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2024, 12:01:14 PM »
I bought my first Kugerrand while I was still in college and living at home, in the 1970's. My mom put it in her jewelry drawer for safekeeping. My sibs threw a party. Afterwards, the jewelry was fine, but the Kugerrand was gone. It was devastating at the time, when minimum wage was $2/hr. In the long run, it was a cheap lesson.
Your -100% return does not factor into the price chart, but it is a very real possibility.

wrong sub-forum.

maybe off topic
This is in Investor Alley. Was it moved?
Dunno, I was just agreeing with @nereo, 'cuz he's one smart dude :-)

solon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2461
  • Age: 1824
  • Location: OH
Re: Gold
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2024, 12:30:15 PM »
I bought my first Kugerrand while I was still in college and living at home, in the 1970's. My mom put it in her jewelry drawer for safekeeping. My sibs threw a party. Afterwards, the jewelry was fine, but the Kugerrand was gone. It was devastating at the time, when minimum wage was $2/hr. In the long run, it was a cheap lesson.
Your -100% return does not factor into the price chart, but it is a very real possibility.

wrong sub-forum.

maybe off topic
This is in Investor Alley. Was it moved?
Dunno, I was just agreeing with @nereo, 'cuz he's one smart dude :-)

I think nereo was making a joke about gold not belonging in an investment forum.

joemandadman189

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1013
Re: Gold
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2024, 01:39:36 PM »
more of a store of value and not an investment - it should go up over time as the dollar is further diluted - again not an investment

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4195
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Gold
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2024, 04:39:51 PM »
It isn't necessarily good as a store of value either.   Back in the late 1970s people bought gold out of inflation fears, but gold is still down from its 1980 peak an inflation-adjusted 19% or so.   On the other hand, the S&P 500 with dividends reinvested is up 3281.79%.   Even if you bought bonds back then you would have made a bundle.   

MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7665
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: Gold
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2024, 09:34:42 AM »
While I don't use it, the permanent portfolio allocates 25% to gold.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/permanent-portfolio.asp

Gold's historical performance is very sensitive to the start date.

gold, 1972-2023 earned 7.5%/year
gold, 1980-2023 earned 3.0%/year
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/backtest-asset-class-allocation

k9

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 253
  • Age: 45
Re: Gold
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2024, 07:05:08 AM »
Gold is not a store of value, unless things turn really wrong (and even then, there is no guarantee either).

Gold-as-an-investment mixes well, in small quantities, with stocks & bonds, since it's completely uncorrelated. Adding uncorrelated assets usually strongly reduces the overall volatility of the portfolio while not dragging too much on the overall return. This is modern portfolio theory in a nutshell.
 
Gold taken in isolation sucks and is probably the worst investment ever. It has the volatility of stocks with the real return of cash -- worst of all worlds. So don't invest in a 100% gold portfolio. Other than that, you're good.

solon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2461
  • Age: 1824
  • Location: OH
Re: Gold
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2024, 02:32:41 PM »
Did you guys see gold is trending? That's probably why OP created this post.

It's going up. It's like physical bitcoin, or something.

blue_green_sparks

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 672
  • FIRE'd 2018
Re: Gold
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2024, 06:01:00 AM »
Did you guys see gold is trending? That's probably why OP created this post.

It's going up. It's like physical bitcoin, or something.
Well, there are all those gold-backed cryptocurrencies. How's about some Texas Republicoin or Ayatollah-Putin-coin?

In April 2023, Texas legislators proposed the launch of a gold-backed digital currency. In a more global move, Russia and Iran are reportedly collaborating to launch a gold-backed cryptocurrency aimed at replacing the US dollar for international trade payments.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ultimate-guide-gold-backed-cryptocurrencies-shuhaib-shariff

sonofsven

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2635
Re: Gold
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2024, 09:14:08 AM »
I don't know, it's been really good for my Costco stock!

Costco earnings beat big on the back of sales of gold bars and silver https://finance.yahoo.com/news/costco-earnings-beat-big-on-the-back-of-sales-of-gold-bars-and-silver-215824555.html

OurTown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1393
  • Age: 55
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Gold
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2024, 10:15:15 AM »
Do they have gold-plated latinum? 

markbike528CBX

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2008
  • Location: the Everbrown part of the Evergreen State (WA)
Re: Gold
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2024, 11:20:19 AM »
Do they have gold-plated latinum?
gold-pressed latinum
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Latinum#

All the latinum is in Morn’s second stomach, so no they don’t.

Must_ache

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 405
  • Age: 53
Re: Gold
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2024, 07:10:50 AM »
The price of gold was $178.90 per oz in March 1975 and $290.25 in March 2000.
Today it's $2,163.
That's an annual return of 5.2% and 8.7% respectively.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18174
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Gold
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2024, 10:55:28 AM »
The price of gold was $178.90 per oz in March 1975 and $290.25 in March 2000.
Today it's $2,163.
That's an annual return of 5.2% and 8.7% respectively.
Hmmmm…. At least one of us is way off with the math here

Rob_bob

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 460
  • Location: Oregon
Re: Gold
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2024, 11:57:43 AM »
The price of gold was $178.90 per oz in March 1975 and $290.25 in March 2000.
Today it's $2,163.
That's an annual return of 5.2% and 8.7% respectively.
Hmmmm…. At least one of us is way off with the math here

I just used an investment calculator and it showed a 5.2% return compounded annually would take $178 to $2163 in just over 49 years, or 1975 to 2024.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18174
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Gold
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2024, 02:10:42 PM »
The price of gold was $178.90 per oz in March 1975 and $290.25 in March 2000.
Today it's $2,163.
That's an annual return of 5.2% and 8.7% respectively.
Hmmmm…. At least one of us is way off with the math here

I just used an investment calculator and it showed a 5.2% return compounded annually would take $178 to $2163 in just over 49 years, or 1975 to 2024.

Ok, I'm reading it differently then.

I was calculating the return on gold from 1975 to 2000, and then again from 2000 to 2024.

ScreamingHeadGuy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 342
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Down the street from the Frozen Tundra
Re: Gold
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2024, 05:02:16 AM »
Do they have gold-plated latinum?
gold-pressed latinum
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Latinum#

All the latinum is in Morn’s second stomach, so no they don’t.

Second-greatest use of that background character.

MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7665
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: Gold
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2024, 07:51:42 AM »
The price of gold was $178.90 per oz in March 1975 and $290.25 in March 2000.
Today it's $2,163.
That's an annual return of 5.2% and 8.7% respectively.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume anyone who talks about the price of gold from the 1970s is a goldbug.  Once you move the start date to 1980, the performance collapses.  The U.S. cannot leave the gold standard twice, so the 1970s will not repeat.

Gold's historical performance is very sensitive to the start date.

gold, 1972-2023 earned 7.5%/year
gold, 1980-2023 earned 3.0%/year
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/backtest-asset-class-allocation

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18174
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Gold
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2024, 01:14:02 PM »
The price of gold was $178.90 per oz in March 1975 and $290.25 in March 2000.
Today it's $2,163.
That's an annual return of 5.2% and 8.7% respectively.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume anyone who talks about the price of gold from the 1970s is a goldbug.  Once you move the start date to 1980, the performance collapses.  The U.S. cannot leave the gold standard twice, so the 1970s will not repeat.

Gold's historical performance is very sensitive to the start date.

gold, 1972-2023 earned 7.5%/year
gold, 1980-2023 earned 3.0%/year
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/backtest-asset-class-allocation

Yes - also, any performance analysis which spans decades absolutely needs to be put into real terms, or it's misleading.

The average inflation rate from 1975 to 2000 was about 4.8%; the real return on gold during that quarter-century was negative.

HPstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2989
Re: Gold
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2024, 04:39:13 PM »
I have about $15K in physical gold.  I bought it before I knew better, but it feels good to own and has gone up quite a bit in value since purchasing.

k9

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 253
  • Age: 45
Re: Gold
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2024, 06:00:33 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume anyone who talks about the price of gold from the 1970s is a goldbug.  Once you move the start date to 1980, the performance collapses.  The U.S. cannot leave the gold standard twice, so the 1970s will not repeat.

You're both right and wrong. Why did you cherry-pick precisely the worst possible starting date? Why 1980? What's so special about this year? Except it's the year when the gold bubble popped? Why not 1977 (5 years after the gold standard was abandoned) or 1982 (10 years later)? You'd look at still very different numbers.

The same can be said for stocks. The inflation-ajusted CAGR of stocks from 1972 to 2024 is 6.4% (give or take). From 1980 to 1999 (two decades, so quite a long timeframe), it's an amazing 12.2%. From 1999 to 2018 (the next two decades), it's a sad 3.8%.

That's the thing with volatile assets: their CAGR changes a lot depending on which timeframe you pick. So cherrypicking dates doesn't really make sense. If you wanna see the whole picture, you have to pick the widest timeframe.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8310
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Gold
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2024, 09:38:18 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume anyone who talks about the price of gold from the 1970s is a goldbug.  Once you move the start date to 1980, the performance collapses.  The U.S. cannot leave the gold standard twice, so the 1970s will not repeat.

You're both right and wrong. Why did you cherry-pick precisely the worst possible starting date? Why 1980? What's so special about this year? Except it's the year when the gold bubble popped? Why not 1977 (5 years after the gold standard was abandoned) or 1982 (10 years later)? You'd look at still very different numbers.

The same can be said for stocks. The inflation-ajusted CAGR of stocks from 1972 to 2024 is 6.4% (give or take). From 1980 to 1999 (two decades, so quite a long timeframe), it's an amazing 12.2%. From 1999 to 2018 (the next two decades), it's a sad 3.8%.

That's the thing with volatile assets: their CAGR changes a lot depending on which timeframe you pick. So cherrypicking dates doesn't really make sense. If you wanna see the whole picture, you have to pick the widest timeframe.
We could go back hundreds of years I suppose, but questions of relevancy arise when we’re extrapolating the future behavior of gold from data going back to the gold standard era, or the timeframe around when the gold standard was dropped. One could argue that although gold was the same physical stuff, its characteristics as an investment are much different today than they were at any point in the past. Even the reasons we mine gold have changed as semiconductors took over the world.

It’s a trade off between having more data and having relevant data. I personally prefer more relevant data, starting after the introduction of gold ETFs.

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4195
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Gold
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2024, 10:04:33 AM »
You're both right and wrong. Why did you cherry-pick precisely the worst possible starting date? Why 1980? What's so special about this year? Except it's the year when the gold bubble popped? Why not 1977 (5 years after the gold standard was abandoned) or 1982 (10 years later)? You'd look at still very different numbers.

The same can be said for stocks. The inflation-ajusted CAGR of stocks from 1972 to 2024 is 6.4% (give or take). From 1980 to 1999 (two decades, so quite a long timeframe), it's an amazing 12.2%. From 1999 to 2018 (the next two decades), it's a sad 3.8%.

That's the thing with volatile assets: their CAGR changes a lot depending on which timeframe you pick. So cherrypicking dates doesn't really make sense. If you wanna see the whole picture, you have to pick the widest timeframe.

He was agreeing with you.  He was responding to a poster who also cherrypicked dates.    Gold can work out fine as a trade, but that requires timing your entry and exit points correctly.   If you don't can you can be underwater for decades.   

MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7665
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: Gold
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2024, 07:22:42 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume anyone who talks about the price of gold from the 1970s is a goldbug.  Once you move the start date to 1980, the performance collapses.  The U.S. cannot leave the gold standard twice, so the 1970s will not repeat.

You're both right and wrong. Why did you cherry-pick precisely the worst possible starting date? Why 1980? What's so special about this year? Except it's the year when the gold bubble popped? Why not 1977 (5 years after the gold standard was abandoned) or 1982 (10 years later)? You'd look at still very different numbers.

The same can be said for stocks. The inflation-ajusted CAGR of stocks from 1972 to 2024 is 6.4% (give or take). From 1980 to 1999 (two decades, so quite a long timeframe), it's an amazing 12.2%. From 1999 to 2018 (the next two decades), it's a sad 3.8%.

That's the thing with volatile assets: their CAGR changes a lot depending on which timeframe you pick. So cherrypicking dates doesn't really make sense. If you wanna see the whole picture, you have to pick the widest timeframe.
If you are against cherry picking, you should reconsider your approach of ignoring context.

Your goal seems to be pelting me with questions.  "Except it's the year when the gold bubble popped?" is not even a question.

Your post only mentions the gold standard, but there were other events in the 1970s which mattered.  In 1979 gold rose +126.55%, which can be filtered out by starting with 1980.

The price of gold was $178.90 per oz in March 1975 and $290.25 in March 2000.
Today it's $2,163.
That's an annual return of 5.2% and 8.7% respectively.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume anyone who talks about the price of gold from the 1970s is a goldbug.  Once you move the start date to 1980, the performance collapses.  The U.S. cannot leave the gold standard twice, so the 1970s will not repeat.

Gold's historical performance is very sensitive to the start date.

gold, 1972-2023 earned 7.5%/year
gold, 1980-2023 earned 3.0%/year
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/backtest-asset-class-allocation

MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7665
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: Gold
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2024, 07:36:05 AM »
We could go back hundreds of years I suppose, but questions of relevancy arise when we’re extrapolating the future behavior of gold from data going back to the gold standard era, or the timeframe around when the gold standard was dropped. One could argue that although gold was the same physical stuff, its characteristics as an investment are much different today than they were at any point in the past.

To reinforce that point, investing in gold was a crime from 1933 until the U.S. went off the gold standard.

"Ultimately, the prosecution of Campbell failed, but the authority of the federal government to seize gold was upheld, and Campbell's gold was confiscated."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102#Prosecutions

Scandium

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3134
  • Location: EastCoast
Re: Gold
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2024, 10:18:36 AM »
I guess the title of this thread should really be:
What do you think of adding a low% of gold allocation?

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18174
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Gold
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2024, 10:35:41 AM »
I guess the title of this thread should really be:
What do you think of adding a low% of gold allocation?

The OP (after two years of inactivity) posted to ask: Thoughts on gold price? … then silence.

Not sure this thread had much of a purpose at all.

sonofsven

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2635
Re: Gold
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2024, 06:28:04 PM »
Now Costco is selling silver, so LET'S GO SILVER, lol.

k9

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 253
  • Age: 45
Re: Gold
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2024, 05:24:36 PM »

If you are against cherry picking, you should reconsider your approach of ignoring context.

Your goal seems to be pelting me with questions.  "Except it's the year when the gold bubble popped?" is not even a question.

Your post only mentions the gold standard, but there were other events in the 1970s which mattered.  In 1979 gold rose +126.55%, which can be filtered out by starting with 1980.

You're quite passive-aggressive, however, I'll still answer because, in fact, I think you're on to something. When evaluating an asset allocation, IMO there are two timeframes to check. The longest possible timeframe to have a grasp of the bigger picture (and for gold, this is starting from 1975, since investing in gold wasn't possible in the biggest market aka the US), but also the worst possible long term timeframe (to stress-test the allocation). Long term being a decade or two. I like two decades, it's very long from an investor POV. And in this regard, you are right, with gold, starting from 1980 is the perfect timeframe, because it really sucked.

Now, let's try a bunch of asset allocations.

100% gold: long-term average (1975-2024) is 1.08% inflation-adjusted CAGR. Worst 2-decades (1980-2000) is -6.64%. Yuck. Terrible asset allocation. No sane investor would do that.

100% stocks: long-term average is 8.13%. Worst 2-decades (1999-2019) is 4.75%. Decent allocation, although the 4.75% is way lower than what most investors expect. Two decades is long enough for this low CAGR to screw up with your FIRE plans.

90% stocks-10% gold: long-term, 7.72%. Worst 2-decades (1999-2019 again) is 5.13%. You're trading some average performance for a better worst-case scenario. That's the usual trade-off when you mix assets.

Note that a 90/10 stocks/bond portfolio would have had a worse performance than that. So would any stock/bond allocation, in fact. When you want to fool-proof your AA and take the worst possible timeframe, an asset allocation including a hint of gold would have performed better than *any* pure stock/bond allocation, from 100/0 to 0/100.

Gold is a spice. Put *some* of it on top of your AA, and you'll reduce it's overall volatility without hurting the average return too much. But put *too much* of it, and then you'll ruin your AA.

That's what neither gold bugs nor stock bugs seem to understand.

vand

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2676
  • Location: UK
Re: Gold
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2024, 06:19:20 AM »

If you are against cherry picking, you should reconsider your approach of ignoring context.

Your goal seems to be pelting me with questions.  "Except it's the year when the gold bubble popped?" is not even a question.

Your post only mentions the gold standard, but there were other events in the 1970s which mattered.  In 1979 gold rose +126.55%, which can be filtered out by starting with 1980.

You're quite passive-aggressive, however, I'll still answer because, in fact, I think you're on to something. When evaluating an asset allocation, IMO there are two timeframes to check. The longest possible timeframe to have a grasp of the bigger picture (and for gold, this is starting from 1975, since investing in gold wasn't possible in the biggest market aka the US), but also the worst possible long term timeframe (to stress-test the allocation). Long term being a decade or two. I like two decades, it's very long from an investor POV. And in this regard, you are right, with gold, starting from 1980 is the perfect timeframe, because it really sucked.

Now, let's try a bunch of asset allocations.

100% gold: long-term average (1975-2024) is 1.08% inflation-adjusted CAGR. Worst 2-decades (1980-2000) is -6.64%. Yuck. Terrible asset allocation. No sane investor would do that.

100% stocks: long-term average is 8.13%. Worst 2-decades (1999-2019) is 4.75%. Decent allocation, although the 4.75% is way lower than what most investors expect. Two decades is long enough for this low CAGR to screw up with your FIRE plans.

90% stocks-10% gold: long-term, 7.72%. Worst 2-decades (1999-2019 again) is 5.13%. You're trading some average performance for a better worst-case scenario. That's the usual trade-off when you mix assets.

Note that a 90/10 stocks/bond portfolio would have had a worse performance than that. So would any stock/bond allocation, in fact. When you want to fool-proof your AA and take the worst possible timeframe, an asset allocation including a hint of gold would have performed better than *any* pure stock/bond allocation, from 100/0 to 0/100.

Gold is a spice. Put *some* of it on top of your AA, and you'll reduce it's overall volatility without hurting the average return too much. But put *too much* of it, and then you'll ruin your AA.

That's what neither gold bugs nor stock bugs seem to understand.

Is Right.
See: Dennis Rodman

Gold works when you need it to work - 1970s, 2000s. 
Gold was a MUCH better diversifer than bonds during those periods.

If you think that we will never come across lengthy difficult periods for stock/bond portfolios again then by all means you probably shouldn't own any gold, and 2022-23 proved to be short-lived enough that it may just reinforce people's opinions that gold isn't a necessary holding and we'll mever had prolonged difficult periods again... each to their own.  Most people's arguments against gold seem to be "if you bought on one particular day in 1982 you'd still be underwater in real terms today..." fair enough, but you should be grateful that it went to those extremes in 1982 and offered you the chance to rebalance into your crushed stock/bond portfolio.

As I heard recently - "I don't hold gold for the hope that it goes to $2500.. I hold for fear that it goes to $10,000."
« Last Edit: March 26, 2024, 06:42:30 AM by vand »

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8310
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Gold
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2024, 07:21:57 AM »
I need a better explanation for why the gold "spice" should be expected to improve portfolio performance. Without an explanation that will apply in the future, the historical data between these apples and oranges could be waved off as a coincidence.

The explanation I've always heard is that the extremely high cost of mining precious metals is sensitive to inflation, so the price of producing new PMs is tied to current costs at any given moment. Thus the price of gold is thought to go up when inflation goes up. When inflation is going up that's usually a bad time for stocks and bonds because it means interest rates are going up too. This is when gold is expected to counter-correlate with the rest of one's portfolio.

However, what happens in a more typical disinflationary recession, when prices and labor costs are flat or about to go negative, and industrial demand for gold is falling? By the same logic, gold should fall when a disinflationary period is occurring. But such periods are exactly when you need a hedge, not another asset class in the red. 

Quote
100% stocks: long-term average is 8.13%. Worst 2-decades (1999-2019) is 4.75%. Decent allocation, although the 4.75% is way lower than what most investors expect. Two decades is long enough for this low CAGR to screw up with your FIRE plans.

90% stocks-10% gold: long-term, 7.72%. Worst 2-decades (1999-2019 again) is 5.13%. You're trading some average performance for a better worst-case scenario. That's the usual trade-off when you mix assets.

There are other, more direct ways to cap gains in exchange for improving worst-case performance, such as using options. Simply selling covered calls would obtain similar results without having to rely on an assumption of counter-correlation - an assumption which may not hold in disinflationary or deflationary times.

A low-beta strategy (e.g. SPLV) would perform similarly. SPLV has had a 9.1% ten-year total rate of return, compared to 4.02% for GLD and 12.6% for SPY. That's impressive considering we've just gone through the worst inflationary cycle since the 1980s and everybody's talking about the recent performance of gold.

vand

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2676
  • Location: UK
Re: Gold
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2024, 08:39:20 AM »
I need a better explanation for why the gold "spice" should be expected to improve portfolio performance. Without an explanation that will apply in the future, the historical data between these apples and oranges could be waved off as a coincidence.

Do you, really? I think Markowitz did a good job of explaining that. It doesn't improve performance, so much as efficiently reduce risk, which sometimes is more important.

MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7665
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: Gold
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2024, 09:08:16 AM »
You're quite passive-aggressive, however, I'll still answer because, in fact, I think you're on to something.
This coming from someone who started a conversation by accusing me of cherry picking.  I accurately said you stripped away context earlier, and you just did it again.  I accused you of "pelting me with questions", which is an accurate description of what you did here:

You're both right and wrong. Why did you cherry-pick precisely the worst possible starting date? Why 1980? What's so special about this year? Except it's the year when the gold bubble popped? Why not 1977 (5 years after the gold standard was abandoned) or 1982 (10 years later)? You'd look at still very different numbers.

MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7665
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: Gold
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2024, 09:14:31 AM »
I'm posting this separately because it is about facts rather than tone, which I think is a more constructive discussion.

100% stocks: long-term average is 8.13%. Worst 2-decades (1999-2019) is 4.75%. Decent allocation, although the 4.75% is way lower than what most investors expect. Two decades is long enough for this low CAGR to screw up with your FIRE plans.
The long-term average is 10%, not 8%.

"The average annualized return since its [The S&P 500] inception in 1928 through Dec. 31, 2023, is 9.90%."
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042415/what-average-annual-return-sp-500.asp

"The average stock market return is about 10% per year for nearly the last century, as measured by the S&P 500 index."
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/investing/average-stock-market-return

Maximus28

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Gold
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2024, 09:37:47 AM »
I did not see any mentions to Karsten's analysis of gold in decumulation style portfolios: https://earlyretirementnow.com/2020/01/08/gold-hedge-against-sequence-risk-swr-series-part-34/

His results show that adding 10 to 15% gold to a portfolio improves the safe withdrawal rate, as compared to standard stock/bond portfolios.

In environments with CAPE>20, like today, 15% gold was shown to reduce failure probabilities of the 4% rule significantly. 75/25 portfolios had a 19.52% failure probability vs 9.40% in a 60/25/15 (60% stock/25% bond/ 15% gold).

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8310
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Gold
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2024, 12:32:30 PM »
I need a better explanation for why the gold "spice" should be expected to improve portfolio performance. Without an explanation that will apply in the future, the historical data between these apples and oranges could be waved off as a coincidence.
Do you, really? I think Markowitz did a good job of explaining that. It doesn't improve performance, so much as efficiently reduce risk, which sometimes is more important.
The null hypothesis is that gold just happened to rise during a couple of key bear markets in the past without a relationship to stocks. Historical data alone are insufficient to reject this null hypothesis because the number of relevant bear markets is in the single digits. We need a mechanical understanding of how this theory is supposed to work before we say it'll happen again.

The first gold ETF was introduced in November 2004, and holding physical gold was illegal prior to 1977. I don't think we can analyze gold as an investment prior to 1977 because it wasn't an investment.

That leaves us with 1980, 1987, 2000, 2007, and 2020 as our five relevant data points. So how did gold do those five times? From the ERE blog post which supported a gold allocation we obtain:

During the brief 2020 pandemic bear market, GLD rose about 27%.

Gold Performance During Bear Markets

1980: -50.1%
1987: +7.3%
2000: +12%
2007: +18.5%
2020: +27%
--------------
avg: +2.94%

The interesting thing is that the one inflationary crisis (1980) was when gold as a hedge failed catastrophically, and the next four crises, when gold did well, were disinflationary. So much for the theory of gold as an inflation hedge or stock market hedge! It's something else.

Here's my attempt at a mechanical explanation: Could gold be less of a hedge against stocks going down, and more of a hedge against interest rates going down? In theory, holding gold incurs the opportunity cost of the interest one could obtain in a similarly volatile bond. As interest rates decrease and the opportunity cost goes down, gold becomes more attractive. As rates rise and the opportunity cost increases (as in 1980) gold becomes expensive to hold and people flee from it.

Yet gold has not consistently outperformed bonds during correction years. The following data are obtained from NYU's historical returns dataset:

Baa Corporate Bond Performance During Bear Markets
1980: -3.32%
1987: +2.81%
2000: +9.39%
2007: +4.84%
2020: +10.6%
------------------
avg:    +4.86%

Based on this take, Baa corporate bonds were better to own during stock correction years than gold was. This finding is completely due to the 1980 wipeout, which co-occurred alongside Volker's aggressive rate hikes.

So maybe gold is a good hedge against another disinflationary / deflationary recession when rates are cut, but it will wipe you out in the event of another outbreak of inflation and rising rates? That's less of a hedge than a commodities / interest rate bet that could go either way. Will the next recession be triggered by inflation and rising rates, or will it be a more common disinflationary recession with falling rates? If you bet incorrectly, you'll only increase your stock losses.

Why accept any ding to your long-term portfolio performance to hold something that functions as a hedge in some bear market circumstances, and a money-loser in others? Why not just use a costless collar or protective put to keep returns within acceptable bounds? These are actual hedges tied to stock prices, instead of a commodity that might rise or fall depending upon the specifics of a future bear market.

Throwing more asset classes at the problem is not a solution. Instead we need to plan for inflationary or disinflationary bear markets and understand how assets will work in either outcome. Hedges need to be direct and supported by theory, not just what worked the last time or few times.

MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7665
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: Gold
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2024, 09:36:23 AM »
In environments with CAPE>20, like today, 15% gold was shown to reduce failure probabilities of the 4% rule significantly. 75/25 portfolios had a 19.52% failure probability vs 9.40% in a 60/25/15 (60% stock/25% bond/ 15% gold).
They used the traditional 60% stock allocation for their portfolio, but decided the most common 60/40 allocation should not be used for comparison - which suggests they are hiding something.  Why isn't the author comparing a 60% stocks portfolio to another 60% stocks portfolio?  The failure rate isn't just from gold, it is also from the stock allocation.

Maximus28

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Gold
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2024, 11:56:31 AM »
In environments with CAPE>20, like today, 15% gold was shown to reduce failure probabilities of the 4% rule significantly. 75/25 portfolios had a 19.52% failure probability vs 9.40% in a 60/25/15 (60% stock/25% bond/ 15% gold).
They used the traditional 60% stock allocation for their portfolio, but decided the most common 60/40 allocation should not be used for comparison - which suggests they are hiding something.  Why isn't the author comparing a 60% stocks portfolio to another 60% stocks portfolio?  The failure rate isn't just from gold, it is also from the stock allocation.

ERN heavily focuses on retirement time horizons of 30+ years, as would be the case for someone retiring in their 30's or 40's. For someone planning a 50+ year retirement, they must keep a higher equity weighting for the portfolio to survive. He states that somewhere between 60% to 80% equities is his recommendation, but it will depend on specific conditions for each individual. He runs almost all of his simulations with a baseline portfolio of 75/25, I don't think he is trying to "hide" anything in his gold analysis by comparing to 75/25. That is just the portfolio he normally uses for comparison purposes. 

I don't have access right now, but you can run the numbers yourself with a 60/40 portfolio and get the same tables in his spreadsheet: https://earlyretirementnow.com/2018/08/29/google-sheet-updates-swr-series-part-28/

Posthumane

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 472
  • Location: Bring Cash, Canuckistan
    • Getting Around Canada
Re: Gold
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2024, 12:36:08 PM »

I need a better explanation for why the gold "spice" should be expected to improve portfolio performance. Without an explanation that will apply in the future, the historical data between these apples and oranges could be waved off as a coincidence.

The explanation I've always heard is that the extremely high cost of mining precious metals is sensitive to inflation, so the price of producing new PMs is tied to current costs at any given moment. Thus the price of gold is thought to go up when inflation goes up. When inflation is going up that's usually a bad time for stocks and bonds because it means interest rates are going up too. This is when gold is expected to counter-correlate with the rest of one's portfolio.

However, what happens in a more typical disinflationary recession, when prices and labor costs are flat or about to go negative, and industrial demand for gold is falling? By the same logic, gold should fall when a disinflationary period is occurring. But such periods are exactly when you need a hedge, not another asset class in the red. 

I've always assumed that the previous successes of gold during periods of poor stock performance was purely behavioural, rather than anything to do with the characteristics of gold as an investment itself. Gold has history and momentum as a store of wealth, a sort of universal currency, not because it is particularly suited to that task but because people believe it to be. When people are looking to get out of other asset classes such as equities or bonds, their money has to go into something else. One option is cash, but many people don't like to hold large amounts of fiat currency due to it being tied to a specific issuing agency along with other risks, so gold is seen as one of the go-to alternatives. This drives a chunk of the negative (or at least low) correlation with equities.

An interesting outcome of modern portfolio theory is that you could craft a portfolio with 2 or more uncorrelated (or preferably negatively correlated) assets which have zero real returns individually but still make money through rebalancing between them. Of course, this is very sensitive to rebalancing thresholds and amounts, but adding a percentage of an asset which has lower returns than the rest of your portfolio does not need to actually result in a reduction of returns for the portfolio as a whole.

vand

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2676
  • Location: UK
Re: Gold
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2024, 06:45:03 AM »

I need a better explanation for why the gold "spice" should be expected to improve portfolio performance. Without an explanation that will apply in the future, the historical data between these apples and oranges could be waved off as a coincidence.

The explanation I've always heard is that the extremely high cost of mining precious metals is sensitive to inflation, so the price of producing new PMs is tied to current costs at any given moment. Thus the price of gold is thought to go up when inflation goes up. When inflation is going up that's usually a bad time for stocks and bonds because it means interest rates are going up too. This is when gold is expected to counter-correlate with the rest of one's portfolio.

However, what happens in a more typical disinflationary recession, when prices and labor costs are flat or about to go negative, and industrial demand for gold is falling? By the same logic, gold should fall when a disinflationary period is occurring. But such periods are exactly when you need a hedge, not another asset class in the red. 

I've always assumed that the previous successes of gold during periods of poor stock performance was purely behavioural, rather than anything to do with the characteristics of gold as an investment itself. Gold has history and momentum as a store of wealth, a sort of universal currency, not because it is particularly suited to that task but because people believe it to be. When people are looking to get out of other asset classes such as equities or bonds, their money has to go into something else. One option is cash, but many people don't like to hold large amounts of fiat currency due to it being tied to a specific issuing agency along with other risks, so gold is seen as one of the go-to alternatives. This drives a chunk of the negative (or at least low) correlation with equities.

An interesting outcome of modern portfolio theory is that you could craft a portfolio with 2 or more uncorrelated (or preferably negatively correlated) assets which have zero real returns individually but still make money through rebalancing between them. Of course, this is very sensitive to rebalancing thresholds and amounts, but adding a percentage of an asset which has lower returns than the rest of your portfolio does not need to actually result in a reduction of returns for the portfolio as a whole.

Well, sure - all markets are ultimately driven by human behaviour.   People have used gold an alternate store of wealth throughout history. It's money, but not government money - it can't be created by decree or destroyed through abolition or conquest of the issuer.. properties that mean it does well when people lose faith in paper money that is susceptible to those sort of crises.  That might be difficult to comprehend if you've never lived through such a period and only read about it, but there are innumerable ocassions throughout history when this has happened... meaning people lose faith in the assets denominated in that paper. 

Actually weird that people understand this muchh less well today than they did 100 years ago.  Watch "Gone With The Wind" and the scene where Scarlett's father, out of his mind, is clinging onto his worthless government bonds...

MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7665
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: Gold
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2024, 07:14:42 AM »
In environments with CAPE>20, like today, 15% gold was shown to reduce failure probabilities of the 4% rule significantly. 75/25 portfolios had a 19.52% failure probability vs 9.40% in a 60/25/15 (60% stock/25% bond/ 15% gold).
They used the traditional 60% stock allocation for their portfolio, but decided the most common 60/40 allocation should not be used for comparison - which suggests they are hiding something.  Why isn't the author comparing a 60% stocks portfolio to another 60% stocks portfolio?  The failure rate isn't just from gold, it is also from the stock allocation.

ERN heavily focuses on retirement time horizons of 30+ years, as would be the case for someone retiring in their 30's or 40's. For someone planning a 50+ year retirement, they must keep a higher equity weighting for the portfolio to survive. He states that somewhere between 60% to 80% equities is his recommendation, but it will depend on specific conditions for each individual. He runs almost all of his simulations with a baseline portfolio of 75/25, I don't think he is trying to "hide" anything in his gold analysis by comparing to 75/25. That is just the portfolio he normally uses for comparison purposes. 

I don't have access right now, but you can run the numbers yourself with a 60/40 portfolio and get the same tables in his spreadsheet: https://earlyretirementnow.com/2018/08/29/google-sheet-updates-swr-series-part-28/
The author is hiding the drop in failure rate that comes solely from lowering the stock allocation from 75% to 60%.  It doesn't matter if he does the same thing often, it is still incorrect to assume 75% stocks and 60% stocks have the same volatility / risk / failure rate.

Maximus28

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Gold
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2024, 10:01:48 AM »
In environments with CAPE>20, like today, 15% gold was shown to reduce failure probabilities of the 4% rule significantly. 75/25 portfolios had a 19.52% failure probability vs 9.40% in a 60/25/15 (60% stock/25% bond/ 15% gold).
They used the traditional 60% stock allocation for their portfolio, but decided the most common 60/40 allocation should not be used for comparison - which suggests they are hiding something.  Why isn't the author comparing a 60% stocks portfolio to another 60% stocks portfolio?  The failure rate isn't just from gold, it is also from the stock allocation.

ERN heavily focuses on retirement time horizons of 30+ years, as would be the case for someone retiring in their 30's or 40's. For someone planning a 50+ year retirement, they must keep a higher equity weighting for the portfolio to survive. He states that somewhere between 60% to 80% equities is his recommendation, but it will depend on specific conditions for each individual. He runs almost all of his simulations with a baseline portfolio of 75/25, I don't think he is trying to "hide" anything in his gold analysis by comparing to 75/25. That is just the portfolio he normally uses for comparison purposes. 

I don't have access right now, but you can run the numbers yourself with a 60/40 portfolio and get the same tables in his spreadsheet: https://earlyretirementnow.com/2018/08/29/google-sheet-updates-swr-series-part-28/
The author is hiding the drop in failure rate that comes solely from lowering the stock allocation from 75% to 60%.  It doesn't matter if he does the same thing often, it is still incorrect to assume 75% stocks and 60% stocks have the same volatility / risk / failure rate.

ERN ran his gold analysis in January of 2020. I ran the same scenarios again, but now we have monthly data from January 2020 through February 2024, which is why the numbers have changed for the 2 cases that were in his original table. The recent dominance of the S&P500 has changed this scenario, making the 75/25 portfolio the clear winner in the most stringent scenarios i.e. CAPE high or S&P500 High.

My attached table is based on ERN's original conditions to make a fair comparison: 30-year horizon, 25% final target value of initial portfolio.

40% bonds did not reduce risk or failure rates as compared to 75/25. 60/40 has the worst SWR by decade, but it has performed better than the 60/25/15 in recent stress tests.

dragoncar

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10039
  • Registered member
Re: Gold
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2024, 10:43:26 AM »
Fear is back.  GLL is breaking down.  Franklin Mint earnings will be a reality check.


vand

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2676
  • Location: UK
Re: Gold
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2024, 12:19:13 PM »
This is still one of my most insightful posts on MMM:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/precious-metals/msg3095991/#msg3095991

Like I said then: Please make the case for bonds as a diversifier... because I really can't see it. Gold has done a better job each time when a diversifying asset has really been needed.


MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7665
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: Gold
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2024, 06:46:32 AM »
Like I said then: Please make the case for bonds as a diversifier... because I really can't see it. Gold has done a better job each time when a diversifying asset has really been needed.
Maximus28's post 2 hours before yours did exactly that, showing 60/40 has a lower failure rate than replacing 15% of the bonds with gold.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!