Author Topic: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock  (Read 28398 times)

franklin4

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #100 on: December 30, 2024, 06:43:47 PM »
FNMA up 36% today but that's still a little below its late Nov high. The increase came right after this statement/pump.

Bill Ackman, CEO of Pershing Square, stated in a post to X: “I am often asked for stock recommendations, but generally don’t share individual names unless I believe the risk versus the reward is extraordinarily compelling. As we look toward 2025, one investment in our portfolio stands out for large asymmetric upside versus downside so I thought I would share it. We have owned Fannie Mae (FNMA) and Freddie Mac (FMCC) common stock for more than a decade. Today, they trade at or around our average cost. As such, they have not been great investments to date. What makes them particularly interesting today versus any other time in history is that there is a credible path for their removal from conservatorship in the relative short term, that is, in the next two years. During Trump’s first term, Secretary Mnuchin took steps toward this outcome, but he ran out of time. I expect that in the second @realDonaldTrump administration, Trump and his team will get the job done… We estimate the value of each company at the time of their IPOs in 2026 at ~$34 per share. We assume their IPOs are priced at $31 per share reflecting a ~10% discount to their intrinsic values. We calculate a profit to the gov’t of ~$300 billion assuming full exercise of its warrants and a sell down of common stock in both companies over the five years following the IPOs. We believe the junior preferreds are also a good investment, but they do not offer nearly the same return because their upside is capped. Trump likes big deals and this would be the biggest deal in history. I am confident he will get it done. There remains a high degree of uncertainty about the ultimate outcome so you should limit your exposure to what you can afford to lose if you choose to invest.”

ChpBstrd

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #101 on: January 03, 2025, 08:11:15 AM »
The rally seems to have legs!

FMCC: $3.90
FNMA: $3.99

both up 15% this morning.

LightStache

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #102 on: January 03, 2025, 11:21:32 AM »
The rally seems to have legs!

FMCC: $3.90
FNMA: $3.99

both up 15% this morning.

The FHFA issued a PR yesterday after close announcing an update to the preferred stock agreements. It directly addressed release from conservatorship, so I think that's the reason for the pop today.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #103 on: January 05, 2025, 07:47:54 PM »
Possible there will be more rallies this week. Articles are now coming out talking about $25 share prices, plus the continued social media posts by Bill Ackman. I haven't sold anything, and don't know at what price I will.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2025, 08:06:14 AM »
$5.00 might be a price we don't see again on these stocks.

10 days until inauguration, 20 days until 2024 earnings release, and common stock dividends may start being paid.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2025, 12:18:55 PM by Chris Pascale »

LightStache

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #105 on: January 14, 2025, 09:14:56 AM »
Wow +20% today! These babies made me a paper millionaire yesterday. I almost threw in the towel before the election ... almost. I would have been $350,000 poorer. This is really wild!

ETA: If these go where I think they're going, I'll owe @Chris Pascale the biggest monster thank you for starting this thread.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2025, 09:17:10 AM by LightStache »

Chris Pascale

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #106 on: January 22, 2025, 05:27:37 PM »
Wow +20% today! These babies made me a paper millionaire yesterday. I almost threw in the towel before the election ... almost. I would have been $350,000 poorer. This is really wild!

ETA: If these go where I think they're going, I'll owe @Chris Pascale the biggest monster thank you for starting this thread.

Really happy for you, and congrats! The end of conservatorship could still be years away, but to me that just means I get to keep buying in. Teaching 2 classes and tutoring this Spring, so when the checks start coming, I'll send them to Schwab, buy more than the $350 I sent in the Fall. When I upped it the extra $50 I had to consider that I could really just be throwing money away. Given that I was buying shares for about $1, those marginal differences are yielding materials gains.

It'll be a nice little twist if none of my articles about having a pension or keeping a POS car made the big difference, but the thread about gambling on a penny stock wrapped in a bundle of red tape turned a LightStache into an ImperialWalrus did.

At the price where conservatorship ends, I'll pull out some funds for a new van and (if it happens in time) my daughter's wedding, plus taxes, but for 2024 I saw something that showed Fannie Mae being more profitable than Visa. Over time, this looks like a triple digit stock, which means I can just teach part-time if I want, even if the kids want to go to medical, dental, law, etc. school.

But that could also be 20 years from now.

Like all things, we'll see.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2025, 11:02:24 AM by Chris Pascale »

LightStache

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #107 on: February 10, 2025, 09:44:23 AM »
Wow +20% today! These babies made me a paper millionaire yesterday. I almost threw in the towel before the election ... almost. I would have been $350,000 poorer. This is really wild!

ETA: If these go where I think they're going, I'll owe @Chris Pascale the biggest monster thank you for starting this thread.

Really happy for you, and congrats! The end of conservatorship could still be years away, but to me that just means I get to keep buying in. Teaching 2 classes and tutoring this Spring, so when the checks start coming, I'll send them to Schwab, buy more than the $350 I sent in the Fall. When I upped it the extra $50 I had to consider that I could really just be throwing money away. Given that I was buying shares for about $1, those marginal differences are yielding materials gains.

It'll be a nice little twist if none of my articles about having a pension or keeping a POS car made the big difference, but the thread about gambling on a penny stock wrapped in a bundle of red tape turned a LightStache into an ImperialWalrus did.

At the price where conservatorship ends, I'll pull out some funds for a new van and (if it happens in time) my daughter's wedding, plus taxes, but for 2024 I saw something that showed Fannie Mae being more profitable than Visa. Over time, this looks like a triple digit stock, which means I can just teach part-time if I want, even if the kids want to go to medical, dental, law, etc. school.

But that could also be 20 years from now.

Like all things, we'll see.

Your patience is commendable and I hope it pays off in the long run.

I reallocated funds to buy in over seven months ending July '24. It's grown to 41% of my portfolio and now I'm cautiously trimming my position on the way up.

My guess is there's a 1/3 chance that the Trump admin won't be able to engineer an exit and the commons eventually plunge back to $1 - $2. As thrilling as the big up days are for me, I know a plummet from $20 to $2 would be too-big-to-stomach if I maintained a large allocation.

So I'm trying to balance upside potential with downside risk and keep my MAGI under the NIIT threshold.  In my IRAs the exit path is a bit steeper.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #108 on: February 24, 2025, 08:47:39 PM »
Wow +20% today! These babies made me a paper millionaire yesterday. I almost threw in the towel before the election ... almost. I would have been $350,000 poorer. This is really wild!

ETA: If these go where I think they're going, I'll owe @Chris Pascale the biggest monster thank you for starting this thread.

Really happy for you, and congrats! The end of conservatorship could still be years away, but to me that just means I get to keep buying in. Teaching 2 classes and tutoring this Spring, so when the checks start coming, I'll send them to Schwab, buy more than the $350 I sent in the Fall. When I upped it the extra $50 I had to consider that I could really just be throwing money away. Given that I was buying shares for about $1, those marginal differences are yielding materials gains.

It'll be a nice little twist if none of my articles about having a pension or keeping a POS car made the big difference, but the thread about gambling on a penny stock wrapped in a bundle of red tape turned a LightStache into an ImperialWalrus did.

At the price where conservatorship ends, I'll pull out some funds for a new van and (if it happens in time) my daughter's wedding, plus taxes, but for 2024 I saw something that showed Fannie Mae being more profitable than Visa. Over time, this looks like a triple digit stock, which means I can just teach part-time if I want, even if the kids want to go to medical, dental, law, etc. school.

But that could also be 20 years from now.

Like all things, we'll see.

Your patience is commendable and I hope it pays off in the long run.

I reallocated funds to buy in over seven months ending July '24. It's grown to 41% of my portfolio and now I'm cautiously trimming my position on the way up.

My guess is there's a 1/3 chance that the Trump admin won't be able to engineer an exit and the commons eventually plunge back to $1 - $2. As thrilling as the big up days are for me, I know a plummet from $20 to $2 would be too-big-to-stomach if I maintained a large allocation.

So I'm trying to balance upside potential with downside risk and keep my MAGI under the NIIT threshold.  In my IRAs the exit path is a bit steeper.

You are doing the right thing. I'd be smart to take my capital out pretty much at any time, but it's still cheap to me.

Also, the only emotion I feel on this is that I'm right. I feel like I've never been so right on a stock, and that if I lose what I put in, I can bear it by just working another year or two, but if I miss out on millions when I knew I was right, then what the heck was all the obsessing and watching and talking about it for?

I can handle being wrong and losing. I don't know if I can handle being right and not winning.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #109 on: February 25, 2025, 01:11:35 PM »
https://seekingalpha.com/news/4413227-flows-into-financials-sustaining-momentum-stocks-with-high-sa-quant-ratings

Freddie Mac ranks as a higher "Strong Buy" than Berkshire Hathaway, Wells Fargo, Chase Bank...........

LightStache

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #110 on: March 10, 2025, 01:49:10 PM »
Wow +20% today! These babies made me a paper millionaire yesterday. I almost threw in the towel before the election ... almost. I would have been $350,000 poorer. This is really wild!

ETA: If these go where I think they're going, I'll owe @Chris Pascale the biggest monster thank you for starting this thread.

As of Friday they unmillionaired me hehe! The market giveth and the market taketh away.


I deviated from my plan and bought a lot more the last couple days!

Chris Pascale

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #111 on: March 13, 2025, 11:31:59 AM »
Wow +20% today! These babies made me a paper millionaire yesterday. I almost threw in the towel before the election ... almost. I would have been $350,000 poorer. This is really wild!

ETA: If these go where I think they're going, I'll owe @Chris Pascale the biggest monster thank you for starting this thread.

As of Friday they unmillionaired me hehe! The market giveth and the market taketh away.


I deviated from my plan and bought a lot more the last couple days!

I personally think it's a great price both ways. First, I'd have been thrilled with this price 6 months ago, and second, it's a cheap buy.

Best of luck with your re-load. I'll be continuing to buy as I can. My highest purchase has been $5.65.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #112 on: March 31, 2025, 08:45:41 PM »
I've been waiting for someone to make a firm estimate about how much privatization of Fannie/Freddy would push up mortgage rates. Such estimates could affect the odds of privatization. I.e. if mortgages would go up 2-3%, it's probably not going to happen. If 0%, it definitely would happen to justify a tax cut or rebate check.

Now I found this quote:
Quote
Zandi, of Moody’s, estimates that if Fannie and Freddie go private with an implicit guarantee, mortgage rates could rise between 20 and 40 basis points. From current levels, that would mean rates back at or near 7%.

A release with no guarantee whatsoever could send rates 1 to 1.5 percentage points higher. Few experts view that scenario as probable given the destabilizing effects on the housing market.
Quote
There’s one scenario that could result in lower rates: The government could formally back the companies before they’re released, giving them an even more explicit level of support than the current system. But that backstop would require an act of Congress, which is politically unlikely.

Any release plan will take time to develop given the complexities and the money involved, said Mike Fratantoni, chief economist of the Mortgage Bankers Association, which has advocated for a conservatorship exit involving an explicit guarantee.

There is an extreme risk of setting off another housing crisis, and I think the Trump administration knows it. But they also want to sell these assets and convert them into tax cut justifications.

So my prediction is that the Trump administration tries to privatize ONLY ONE of the two at first - Fannie OR Freddy. And they'll do so with explicit government backing of some sort, so that the two GSE's are on an equal footing while one is public and the other is private.

The sale of the government's preferred stock - or the restructuring and re-floating of one of the companies - will generate billions to partially justify income tax cuts or even rebate checks to "stimulate the economy". The prospect of the other GSE being privatized and used as a justification for more rebate checks could be a campaign tool in 2028.

This take suggests that FNMA and FMCC are relatively risky. We cannot know which would be prioritized for privatization. We also cannot know whether the common stock holders will be left with anything after the companies are restructured for privatization. Unless Trump has an explicit plan to enrich Republican insiders who have piled into the stock, the recent gains are probably the bird in hand. Maybe investors should accept the win and keep their position sizes speculative.

I'm also not too keen on agency bonds from these or the government-sponsored farm banks. Markets could start chattering about the risks of an non-guaranteed privatization, and that alone could drive up yields.

LightStache

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #113 on: April 02, 2025, 08:15:47 AM »
Studies estimating the impact of release on mortgage rates have been around for a long time.

The Harris campaign used this 2015 study to claim that "Trump's" Project 2025 plan would increase the average mortgage cost by $1,200. Zandi authored that study.

Zandi is also on the board of MGIC, the largest provider of PMI in the country, which would benefit from an explicit guarantee. This is why he's typically aligned with the MBA, whose members would also benefit. Zandi also publishes on other economic matters and is quite partisan towards the left.

Since the switch from implicit to explicit guarantee did not move rates, it's not clear that the opposite action would have any effect. After conservatorship mortgage rates decreased because they follow 10-year treasury yields. Spreads did not change meaningfully.

Regardless of the science, the refrain "release will [likely] raise mortgage rates" is prominent enough that I have to agree it presents a real risk.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #114 on: April 02, 2025, 12:35:05 PM »
Damn. Here's a great Wolf Street article explaining why Fannie/Freddy should remain in government conservatorship rather than returning to being guaranteed GSEs where the profits are 100% private and the risks are 99% public.

https://wolfstreet.com/2025/04/01/not-another-free-lunch-dont-let-fannie-and-freddie-turn-back-into-gses/#comment-631788

They also bring up a point I'd not heard before. Because Fannie/Freddy's MBS have an implicit government guarantee that is provided to them for absolutely free, they:
  • Squeeze out private sector competition in this space, which cannot offer such a guarantee, and
  • Increase the supply of government-guaranteed securities, thus putting upward pressure on Treasury yields, at a cost to taxpayers of hundreds of billions of dollars per year in extra interest.
The article goes on to calculate that, with conservative assumptions based on FDIC numbers, it would cost approximately 100% of Fannie/Freddy's profits if they had to pay the government a fair price for the government guarantee. Additionally, neither business model could compete in the private sector if there was no guarantee. Essentially, these companies extract exactly the value of a government guarantee.

I drew the following conclusion from this damning assessment: These post-GSE's are merely a subsidy for real estate and treasury investors. The profit the government collects as their owner is immediately lost due to higher Treasury yields. Privatization, even if done at a fair price (which is not much for an unsustainable business model) would simply enrich investors while leaving taxpayers on the hook for the next inevitable bailout.

That said, this government is not interested in doing the responsible thing. It's interested in preventing a housing crash, preventing the rise of mortgage rates to the market rates like we see for HELOCS (8-9% right now), and delivering a politically justifiable tax cut / rebate.

If the administration can collect a few hundred billion for the treasury to pay back out in stimulus checks, it will do it. If Trump has to write a blank check to the GSEs in the form of a pre-2007 implicit guarantee or a formal guarantee, that's fine because they'll probably implode again after the next election. Your average voter is a lot more concerned with keeping their property value propped up than in eliminating market-distorting subsidies, and our "tariff man" president is a big fan of market-distorting subsidies anyway.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #115 on: April 05, 2025, 09:33:09 AM »
Thanks for sharing.

I am confused about how "all their profits" will be eaten up. I mean, they were profitable in 2006, 2005, etc. Would they not just operate in a profitable manner simply to survive? Costs would be cut when the employees solely doing conservatorship work come off the books, and the added $1200 cost to mortgages would be added to them.

Maybe they won't make more than Berkshire Hathaway (they did in 2024), but I'm sure they will run at a profit.

My main point is: I don't know that much, and am genuinely confused about why this is not a $100+ stock.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2025, 09:34:46 AM by Chris Pascale »

ChpBstrd

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #116 on: April 06, 2025, 12:38:38 PM »
Thanks for sharing.

I am confused about how "all their profits" will be eaten up. I mean, they were profitable in 2006, 2005, etc. Would they not just operate in a profitable manner simply to survive? Costs would be cut when the employees solely doing conservatorship work come off the books, and the added $1200 cost to mortgages would be added to them.

Maybe they won't make more than Berkshire Hathaway (they did in 2024), but I'm sure they will run at a profit.

My main point is: I don't know that much, and am genuinely confused about why this is not a $100+ stock.
The article was saying that Fannie/Freddy are only able to sell mortgage bonds at the low yields they currently sell for because there is an implicit government guarantee that the bonds cannot default. The US government made that guarantee real in 2008/2009 when they nationalized these companies and bailed out the MBS bondholders.

If Fannie/Freddy were cut off from this government guarantee, bond buyers would demand much higher yields to compensate them for the risk of loss. In such a world, Fannie/Freddy would be no better off than your local retail bank at earning the spread between mortgages and MBS. F/F's earnings come from taking a bunch of 6% mortgages and bundling them into MBS yielding 5.5%. The MBS is worth more than the mortgage because of the implicit government guarantee. In a future world, where these companies are cut loose, the MBS would be worth the same as the sum of their mortgages. Thus the whole value of Fannie/Freddy is in the ability to apply that implicit government guarantee and earn a profit from doing so. Taxpayers pay the price when a 2008-like bailout has to happen.

So the only way F/F stay in business as private sector entities with no government guarantee is if they buy such insurance on the open market. Given the size of the market, they'd quickly exhaust the reinsurance market, so that leaves the government. The government already sells depositor insurance to banks and if they did the same for F/F at a similar price, it would consume all the profits these companies make.

That makes logical sense, as the profits entirely consist of the value of the government guarantee. If they had to pay for the government guarantee - then no profits.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #117 on: April 07, 2025, 10:37:47 PM »
Thanks for sharing.

I am confused about how "all their profits" will be eaten up. I mean, they were profitable in 2006, 2005, etc. Would they not just operate in a profitable manner simply to survive? Costs would be cut when the employees solely doing conservatorship work come off the books, and the added $1200 cost to mortgages would be added to them.

Maybe they won't make more than Berkshire Hathaway (they did in 2024), but I'm sure they will run at a profit.

My main point is: I don't know that much, and am genuinely confused about why this is not a $100+ stock.
The article was saying that Fannie/Freddy are only able to sell mortgage bonds at the low yields they currently sell for because there is an implicit government guarantee that the bonds cannot default. The US government made that guarantee real in 2008/2009 when they nationalized these companies and bailed out the MBS bondholders.

If Fannie/Freddy were cut off from this government guarantee, bond buyers would demand much higher yields to compensate them for the risk of loss. In such a world, Fannie/Freddy would be no better off than your local retail bank at earning the spread between mortgages and MBS. F/F's earnings come from taking a bunch of 6% mortgages and bundling them into MBS yielding 5.5%. The MBS is worth more than the mortgage because of the implicit government guarantee. In a future world, where these companies are cut loose, the MBS would be worth the same as the sum of their mortgages. Thus the whole value of Fannie/Freddy is in the ability to apply that implicit government guarantee and earn a profit from doing so. Taxpayers pay the price when a 2008-like bailout has to happen.

So the only way F/F stay in business as private sector entities with no government guarantee is if they buy such insurance on the open market. Given the size of the market, they'd quickly exhaust the reinsurance market, so that leaves the government. The government already sells depositor insurance to banks and if they did the same for F/F at a similar price, it would consume all the profits these companies make.

That makes logical sense, as the profits entirely consist of the value of the government guarantee. If they had to pay for the government guarantee - then no profits.

Thanks for taking the time to explain. Appreciate it.

Will be interesting to see what happens.

tacticalteam4

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #118 on: May 21, 2025, 05:52:03 PM »
Popcorn ready for tomorrow following Trump’s Truth post after markets closed for the day.

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #119 on: May 22, 2025, 08:01:55 AM »
Popcorn ready for tomorrow following Trump’s Truth post after markets closed for the day.

Premarket was more funner than the first few minutes of the regular market.

I started the day with 83,591 shares, so I'm up about $150K. That's wild, but the story is far from over. Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #120 on: May 22, 2025, 09:42:33 PM »
When it was sliding from its big open I was thinking, if it closes above $8.00 that's pretty good, and then it swung back up when there were no more $10.00, $9.99, $9,98 SELL triggers to hit.

A good day.

We'll see what's the come.

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #121 on: May 26, 2025, 06:47:06 AM »
For most of this month, $FNMA stock floated in the $6 to $7 range.  Then Trump commented on May 21:

"Trump ‘giving very serious consideration’ to spinning off mortgage giants Fannie and Freddie"
https://edition.cnn.com/2025/05/21/business/trump-fannie-freddie-mortgage-privatization

And now the stock is around $11/share.  It might be interesting to figure out what the IPO value of Fannie Mae could be, and how many years you would need to hold to reach that price, if Trump follows through.

"Mortgages Under Trump: What Happens if He Privatizes Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac?"
https://money.usnews.com/loans/mortgages/articles/mortgages-under-trump-what-happens-if-he-privatizes-fannie-mae-and-freddie-mac

LightStache

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #122 on: May 26, 2025, 09:24:41 AM »
For most of this month, $FNMA stock floated in the $6 to $7 range.  Then Trump commented on May 21:

"Trump ‘giving very serious consideration’ to spinning off mortgage giants Fannie and Freddie"
https://edition.cnn.com/2025/05/21/business/trump-fannie-freddie-mortgage-privatization

And now the stock is around $11/share.  It might be interesting to figure out what the IPO value of Fannie Mae could be, and how many years you would need to hold to reach that price, if Trump follows through.

"Mortgages Under Trump: What Happens if He Privatizes Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac?"
https://money.usnews.com/loans/mortgages/articles/mortgages-under-trump-what-happens-if-he-privatizes-fannie-mae-and-freddie-mac

This January 2025 presentation from Bill Ackman of Pershing Square suggests "IPO" prices of $32 in 2026 for Fannie and $34 in 2027 for Freddie.

I put IPO in quotes because it will technically be a follow-on public offering, not initial, but everyone has been calling it an IPO.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #123 on: May 26, 2025, 06:45:24 PM »
For most of this month, $FNMA stock floated in the $6 to $7 range.  Then Trump commented on May 21:

"Trump ‘giving very serious consideration’ to spinning off mortgage giants Fannie and Freddie"
https://edition.cnn.com/2025/05/21/business/trump-fannie-freddie-mortgage-privatization

And now the stock is around $11/share.  It might be interesting to figure out what the IPO value of Fannie Mae could be, and how many years you would need to hold to reach that price, if Trump follows through.

"Mortgages Under Trump: What Happens if He Privatizes Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac?"
https://money.usnews.com/loans/mortgages/articles/mortgages-under-trump-what-happens-if-he-privatizes-fannie-mae-and-freddie-mac

This January 2025 presentation from Bill Ackman of Pershing Square suggests "IPO" prices of $32 in 2026 for Fannie and $34 in 2027 for Freddie.

I put IPO in quotes because it will technically be a follow-on public offering, not initial, but everyone has been calling it an IPO.

I read a lot of that, skipping some parts in the second half.  Very detailed, and convincing that both GSEs are ready to resume being public companies again.  They've been retaining earnings in preparation for it.  They could pay the U.S. government a "reinsurance" premium in case they run out of assets and need an infusion.  They won't be allowed to enter riskier mortgages, which is why they got into trouble in the first place.

I believe markets are easily excitable, and have short memories.  So I'm going to wait a few weeks to see if the market forgets about this stock.  But then I might buy a very small allocation.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #124 on: May 28, 2025, 07:33:42 AM »
Updates on possible direction of policy:
Quote
“I am working on TAKING THESE AMAZING COMPANIES PUBLIC, but I want to be clear, the US Government will keep its implicit GUARANTEES, and I will stay strong in my position on overseeing them as President,” Trump wrote Tuesday night in a post on his Truth Social platform.

So it is evolving toward the government exiting its preferred share control over the companies, but still providing a guarantee over their mortgage-backed-securities. This direction would keep the status quo in terms of preserving the 15 and 30 year fixed rate mortgages, keeping those rates relatively low, and maintaining liquidity. It would simply divert the cash flows from the government to Fannie/Freddy's equity investors.

It remains to be seen whether those equity investors would be the same as the people who own FNMA and FMCC shares today. I can imagine the government liquidating its preferred shares in a dilutive IPO where new common shares are issued. I can imagine the government simply selling its preferred shares to the public and reverting back to the pre-GFC status quo. And I can imagine some kind of corrupt insider scheme that puts the shares in the pockets of administration-aligned billionaires, much like the way Russian assets were privatized by oligarchs in the 1990s.

The U.S. government would lose billions of dollars per year of revenue, and this would increase the deficit. Regular banks would lose the possibility of a competitive, fully-private-sector mortgage industry. Taxpayers would remain on the hook for bailing out the next housing crisis. But at least it will still be possible to buy a home with a 30 year fixed rate mortgage, and the housing crisis that would result from ending that seems to be off the table.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2025, 07:36:43 AM by ChpBstrd »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #125 on: May 30, 2025, 09:36:54 AM »
Updates on possible direction of policy:
Quote
“I am working on TAKING THESE AMAZING COMPANIES PUBLIC, but I want to be clear, the US Government will keep its implicit GUARANTEES, and I will stay strong in my position on overseeing them as President,” Trump wrote Tuesday night in a post on his Truth Social platform.
Dated May 28, FNMA stock rose to $11.76/sh on the news, but then fell back with the broader market after that.  I view the market like that dog from the movie "Up!".  I'm waiting for someone to say "squirrel!" and the market to forget about $FNMA so I can buy some.


The U.S. government would lose billions of dollars per year of revenue, and this would increase the deficit. Regular banks would lose the possibility of a competitive, fully-private-sector mortgage industry. Taxpayers would remain on the hook for bailing out the next housing crisis. But at least it will still be possible to buy a home with a 30 year fixed rate mortgage, and the housing crisis that would result from ending that seems to be off the table.
Is losing, not would lose.  The government is losing billions in revenue, because FNMA has been retaining its revenue.  I recall the presentation from Jan 2025 mentioning $5 billion needed to take FNMA public.  I forget when Trump instructed FNMA to retain revenues, but I know it is currently doing just that.  The government announced this takeover almost 17 years ago.

The earlier report claims that FNMA getting into subprime was the reason it had to be rescued.  Borrowers with higher credit scores also caused losses, according to that report, but within the $20 billion buffer the company had reserved for it.  It could have sustained prime mortgage losses.  Because it got into subprime loans (like many institutions), it was taken down and needed a bailout.  I suspect this risk won't go away - because the entire financial system was covered with subprime mortgage products.

If we get another real estate crisis, in theory reinsurance can prevent the need for government taking FNMA over again.  FNMA makes regular payments to the U.S. government (or another large insurer), and if FNMA loans inflict enough losses, money is made available to keep it afloat (up to a specified limit).  Will FNMA keep away from the next subprime loans?  I doubt it.  Major institutions couldn't, while Moody's and S&P rated the subprime CDOs as excellent.  Something similar could happen.. but that seems unlikely for the near to medium term.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #126 on: May 30, 2025, 11:40:09 AM »
If we get another real estate crisis, in theory reinsurance can prevent the need for government taking FNMA over again.  FNMA makes regular payments to the U.S. government (or another large insurer), and if FNMA loans inflict enough losses, money is made available to keep it afloat (up to a specified limit).  Will FNMA keep away from the next subprime loans?  I doubt it.  Major institutions couldn't, while Moody's and S&P rated the subprime CDOs as excellent.  Something similar could happen.. but that seems unlikely for the near to medium term.
The article I posted on April 2 addresses the possibility of Fannie/Freddy paying for the riskiness of their own business operations:
https://wolfstreet.com/2025/04/01/not-another-free-lunch-dont-let-fannie-and-freddie-turn-back-into-gses
The author used the FDIC as a reinsurance model and scaled it to the mortgage market. They found the fair cost of the government's guarantee is approximately 100% of these companies' profits. I.e. their total profits merely represent the gift of free reinsurance from the government to the shareholders (currently the government and the shareholders are one and the same). If you can think of a reinsurance company big enough to underwrite $7 trillion in MBSs, it would be even more expensive because they'd need to price their reinsurance to earn a competitive profit margin and mitigate the risk of a bad sequence of returns.

So basically these entities live off of the taxpayer bearing most of their risk, or they can't survive at all. They are vehicles for a subsidy. Similarly, the long-duration 15 and 30 year mortgages prevalent in the U.S. only exist because the government insures the mortgage backed securities markets. Such mortgage products do not exist in other countries without government subsidies because the private sector cannot make such loans make sense.

I don't think simply avoiding subprime would work to make the GSEs safe. Even with prime mortgages, it is now routine for homebuyers to put down only 3-5%. What ever happened to the traditional 20%? IDK. But with that little skin in the game, even high-credit, financially savvy buyers are incentivized by a dynamic where if the market goes up they enjoy massive leverage and if the market goes down they lose very little.

This win big or lose small incentive structure alone would explain the massive rise in residential real estate speculation, but when we also factor in artificially low rates due to the government's not-so-implicit guarantee, we can see the bigger picture of how federal government influence has propped up housing prices.

An end to the mortgage subsidy would result in an end to the 15 and 30 year mortgages, much higher loan rates, and possibly a recalibration of home prices due to speculation not being as attractive. This would irritate a lot of home owning voters. Thus, a return to the pre-GFC privatized profits and socialized losses model was the only politically viable possibility for privatization. 

But if the government is going to underwrite the risk of the GSEs, why not keep them as publically owned corporations forever? At least that way their "profits" pay the government/taxpayer for the risk the government/taxpayer is taking, and eventually replenish the public coffers for the periodic catastrophic losses. There are the optics, for conservatives, of privatizing things and breaking up Big Government, but this comes at the risk of being blamed for resetting the dominoes that led to the GFC. The left, meanwhile, doesn't seem to have a coherent direction on this issue.

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #127 on: May 30, 2025, 08:15:37 PM »
I have nothing to add. Just saying hi, and that I hope you guys have a great weekend.

With no more paychecks coming in from teaching until September, unless there's a price drop, I'm hanging out in HOLD territory at least until re-list.

At re-list (supposedly $30+) I'm thinking of selling some shares.

franklin4

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #128 on: May 30, 2025, 09:09:14 PM »
I have nothing to add. Just saying hi, and that I hope you guys have a great weekend.

With no more paychecks coming in from teaching until September, unless there's a price drop, I'm hanging out in HOLD territory at least until re-list.

At re-list (supposedly $30+) I'm thinking of selling some shares.

Thank you so much for starting this thread! I started buying at 55 cents and kept going - it's crazy what this has done in the past year. It's easy to see much more upside but of course there is some chance it will collapse. It's been a fun ride so far!

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #129 on: May 31, 2025, 07:44:15 AM »
I have nothing to add. Just saying hi, and that I hope you guys have a great weekend.

With no more paychecks coming in from teaching until September, unless there's a price drop, I'm hanging out in HOLD territory at least until re-list.

At re-list (supposedly $30+) I'm thinking of selling some shares.

Thank you so much for starting this thread! I started buying at 55 cents and kept going - it's crazy what this has done in the past year. It's easy to see much more upside but of course there is some chance it will collapse. It's been a fun ride so far!

I leaned hard into this, so I have a sell schedule along the way up. So far I've realized $51K in gains and holding $736K with a cost basis of $150K. NGL though, most of those realized gains are from me going off script, buying dips and then "correcting" back to plan.

Last week after watching Bill Pulte's confidence-killing interviews and this youtube video I put in some additional sell orders for ~3%. They didn't execute and I corrected back to plan.

I entered into this investment figuring that HERA and the Fifth Amendment would rule, eventually forcing an end to conservatorship regardless of party control. But man watching this administration is cringe AF because they don't seem to be oriented to facts and recap/release is complicated. Hopefully there's enough expert engagement, and lack of political interest, that this doesn't fail like DOGE.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #130 on: May 31, 2025, 02:44:48 PM »
The article I posted on April 2 addresses the possibility of Fannie/Freddy paying for the riskiness of their own business operations:
https://wolfstreet.com/2025/04/01/not-another-free-lunch-dont-let-fannie-and-freddie-turn-back-into-gses
The author used the FDIC as a reinsurance model and scaled it to the mortgage market. They found the fair cost of the government's guarantee is approximately 100% of these companies' profits. I.e. their total profits merely represent the gift of free reinsurance from the government to the shareholders (currently the government and the shareholders are one and the same). If you can think of a reinsurance company big enough to underwrite $7 trillion in MBSs, it would be even more expensive because they'd need to price their reinsurance to earn a competitive profit margin and mitigate the risk of a bad sequence of returns.

"Before joining AEI, Mr. Pinto was an executive vice president and chief credit officer for Fannie Mae until the late 1980s."
https://www.aei.org/profile/edward-j-pinto/

His experience is wildly appropriate to the subject at hand, since he was in corporate leadership at Fannie Mae.  But I disagree with the theory that anyone competing with treasury bonds needs to pay the U.S. government for how much their competition costs the government.  Do banks need to pay, because they issue CDs which take away demand from Treasury bonds?  What about corporate bonds, which compete with U.S. treasuries?  I haven't seen this claim used anywhere, and I don't think it makes sense.


I don't think simply avoiding subprime would work to make the GSEs safe. Even with prime mortgages, it is now routine for homebuyers to put down only 3-5%. What ever happened to the traditional 20%? IDK. But with that little skin in the game, even high-credit, financially savvy buyers are incentivized by a dynamic where if the market goes up they enjoy massive leverage and if the market goes down they lose very little.

Yes, Fannie Mae's 2024 report also claims 3% (adjustable rate) or 5% (fixed) down payments.  The amounts are higher for investment properties and second homes, which I think limits how much people can take advantage of the low down payments.  Deciding if subsidizing home ownership is good is above my pay grade... President Bill Clinton championed it, and I haven't seen arguments against it.
https://singlefamily.fanniemae.com/media/20786/display


An end to the mortgage subsidy would result in an end to the 15 and 30 year mortgages, much higher loan rates, and possibly a recalibration of home prices due to speculation not being as attractive. This would irritate a lot of home owning voters. Thus, a return to the pre-GFC privatized profits and socialized losses model was the only politically viable possibility for privatization.
That's a risk I haven't seen analyzed in detail.  The article against it mentions costs, the article for it mentions investment returns.

The government would still stand behind Fannie Mae - it has to, with $7.7 trillion in assets.  And Fannie Mae would pay for that guarantee.

Homeowners are very active voters, and if they hear about a change to mortgages in the U.S., I expect them to get very vocal, very quickly.  That's a significant risk to this investment - the public reaction.


But if the government is going to underwrite the risk of the GSEs, why not keep them as publically owned corporations forever? At least that way their "profits" pay the government/taxpayer for the risk the government/taxpayer is taking, and eventually replenish the public coffers for the periodic catastrophic losses. There are the optics, for conservatives, of privatizing things and breaking up Big Government, but this comes at the risk of being blamed for resetting the dominoes that led to the GFC. The left, meanwhile, doesn't seem to have a coherent direction on this issue.

The article you mentioned earlier expects reinsurance of Fannie Mae's $7.7 trillion in assets would cost $4 to $24 billion/year, with the article estimating $9 billion/year.  Fannie Mae's 2024 pre-tax profits were $36 billion, making the range of costs 11% to 67% of their revenue.  The U.S. government would get that money, representing the risk of Fannie Mae holding $7.7 trillion in assets, and being backed by the government.

Leverage and fraud made the Great Financial Crisis (GFC) possible.  Whenever subprime loans were aggregated, Moody's and S&P rated the credit risk as extremely low (AAA) - they weren't.  These investments ran out of subprime loans to securitize, so they accepted anything - no income, no job, no verification.  The fraud drove issuing of more subprime loans.  Mix in leverage (CDOs and synthetic CDOs), and you have the GFC.  Without leverage and fraud, it would have been a collapse of a small subprime mortgage market.  But fraud expanded the subprime market ridiculously, and leverage made it into an economic collapse.  Subprime loans, by themselves, didn't result in the GFC.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #131 on: May 31, 2025, 06:15:15 PM »
I have nothing to add. Just saying hi, and that I hope you guys have a great weekend.

With no more paychecks coming in from teaching until September, unless there's a price drop, I'm hanging out in HOLD territory at least until re-list.

At re-list (supposedly $30+) I'm thinking of selling some shares.

Thank you so much for starting this thread! I started buying at 55 cents and kept going - it's crazy what this has done in the past year. It's easy to see much more upside but of course there is some chance it will collapse. It's been a fun ride so far!

That's incredible! I'm so happy it's working out.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #132 on: May 31, 2025, 06:22:38 PM »
I have nothing to add. Just saying hi, and that I hope you guys have a great weekend.

With no more paychecks coming in from teaching until September, unless there's a price drop, I'm hanging out in HOLD territory at least until re-list.

At re-list (supposedly $30+) I'm thinking of selling some shares.

Thank you so much for starting this thread! I started buying at 55 cents and kept going - it's crazy what this has done in the past year. It's easy to see much more upside but of course there is some chance it will collapse. It's been a fun ride so far!

I leaned hard into this, so I have a sell schedule along the way up. So far I've realized $51K in gains and holding $736K with a cost basis of $150K. NGL though, most of those realized gains are from me going off script, buying dips and then "correcting" back to plan.

Last week after watching Bill Pulte's confidence-killing interviews and this youtube video I put in some additional sell orders for ~3%. They didn't execute and I corrected back to plan.

I entered into this investment figuring that HERA and the Fifth Amendment would rule, eventually forcing an end to conservatorship regardless of party control. But man watching this administration is cringe AF because they don't seem to be oriented to facts and recap/release is complicated. Hopefully there's enough expert engagement, and lack of political interest, that this doesn't fail like DOGE.

Wow! Thank you for sharing. It's been surprising how many people (here and elsewhere) bought based on me telling them about it.

When I wrote this blog post -
https://you.stonybrook.edu/crisisandcatharsis/2024/07/13/fannie-comes-to-town-and-may-soon-be-history/ -
a classmate of mine told me that he and his friends bought in. One guy is paying for his wedding with it! Not sure how big the wedding is, but those were his words when it hit $8.00 - that he had enough to pay for his wedding.

I'm not sure where this goes. $30-something is the conservatively estimated diluted value, but at relist you'll have the whole world able to buy it (Robin Hood users, etc.). There's also the possibility of bankers having purchased on their own Schwab and Fidelity accounts, who then have their employers buy a big stake, which will run the price up.

Not saying that would happen, but it's a possibility, and a justifiable purchase.

LightStache

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #133 on: June 01, 2025, 09:07:36 AM »
Wow! Thank you for sharing. It's been surprising how many people (here and elsewhere) bought based on me telling them about it.

When I wrote this blog post -
https://you.stonybrook.edu/crisisandcatharsis/2024/07/13/fannie-comes-to-town-and-may-soon-be-history/ -
a classmate of mine told me that he and his friends bought in. One guy is paying for his wedding with it! Not sure how big the wedding is, but those were his words when it hit $8.00 - that he had enough to pay for his wedding.

I'm not sure where this goes. $30-something is the conservatively estimated diluted value, but at relist you'll have the whole world able to buy it (Robin Hood users, etc.). There's also the possibility of bankers having purchased on their own Schwab and Fidelity accounts, who then have their employers buy a big stake, which will run the price up.

Not saying that would happen, but it's a possibility, and a justifiable purchase.

It's not over 'till the fat lady sings. Just yesterday WSJ published this article where Laurie Goodman, of the Urban Institute, is quoted as saying "[...] keeping Fannie and Freddie in conservatorship is the most probable outcome."

If that happens the share prices are back down to $1 and new Fifth Amendment litigation will be the only hope. That would hurt.

If the average share prices first hit $15 I'll have recovered my initial investment in realized gains. In the meantime I'm just trying to overact to the swings and every bit of news.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #134 on: June 03, 2025, 01:26:00 PM »
"Trump Team Signals It Wants to Keep Control of Fannie, Freddie to Boost Budget"
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-06-03/us-signals-interest-in-using-fannie-freddie-to-bolster-budget

Trump's team can send inconsistent messages, but if this is confirmed, the stock should plunge back to where it was before Trump's influence ($1.50 range).

There's also potential homeowner backlash at any change to mortgages - and that's a group that tends to vote.  I'm not buying after all.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #135 on: June 04, 2025, 12:08:03 PM »
"Trump Team Signals It Wants to Keep Control of Fannie, Freddie to Boost Budget"
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-06-03/us-signals-interest-in-using-fannie-freddie-to-bolster-budget

Trump's team can send inconsistent messages, but if this is confirmed, the stock should plunge back to where it was before Trump's influence ($1.50 range).

There's also potential homeowner backlash at any change to mortgages - and that's a group that tends to vote.  I'm not buying after all.

48 hours ago, FNMA was trading at $10.59/share
24 hours ago, FNMA was trading at $10.16/share
now, FNMA is trading at $7.95/share
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/FNMA/

I haven't seen confirmation of the Bloomberg article by another source.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #136 on: Today at 08:21:09 AM »
As always, I cannot say what's happening, and lay back on this gamble's inspiration: They make a lot of money, so should (should?) be worth what companies that make that much are worth.

In 2024 they made more money than Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway, and no one would think he should be under conservatorship. On the contrary, he was who the government called in 2008.

At the moment, re-list seems like a good place to take back my capital, but we'll see.

LightStache

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Re: Gambling on Fannie Mae Stock
« Reply #137 on: Today at 10:41:21 AM »
"Trump Team Signals It Wants to Keep Control of Fannie, Freddie to Boost Budget"
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-06-03/us-signals-interest-in-using-fannie-freddie-to-bolster-budget

Trump's team can send inconsistent messages, but if this is confirmed, the stock should plunge back to where it was before Trump's influence ($1.50 range).

There's also potential homeowner backlash at any change to mortgages - and that's a group that tends to vote.  I'm not buying after all.

48 hours ago, FNMA was trading at $10.59/share
24 hours ago, FNMA was trading at $10.16/share
now, FNMA is trading at $7.95/share
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/FNMA/

I haven't seen confirmation of the Bloomberg article by another source.

Yesterday's drawdown was unusual, but I don't think unprecedented on a percent basis. Down 20%, up 40%, down 15%, up 15%.

Posts by the President were unprecedented, though, and I suspect the Tue/Wed shakeout was a result of newbie retails having bought in on the recent press and then over-reacting to negative news.

Hopefully once the stocks up-list there will be more liquidity and therefore loss volatility.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!