How to determine fee

[BlueHouse]

How do I figure out how much it costs to exchange a fund or ETF within the same retirement account? 
Example:  I want to exchange $100 worth of VTSAX and change it to $100 worth of VOO.
Vanguard shows this as a no-commission transaction, but there are fees somewhere, right?

 I’ve assumed that they just shaved some amount off when they sold and that I end up with slightly less than $100 of VOO.

Similar question for the annual fee. There is no place that I’ve ever seen a transaction that says “.003% deduction for annual fee”. How do I spot that on my records? 

[reeshau]

Who's your broker?  Are you direct with Vanguard?

[secondcor521]

If you're direct with Vanguard, I doubt there is a fee to exchange Vanguard ETFs.  If you have another broker, they may charge a transaction fee.  Check with your broker or read your account agreement before the transaction.

If you're talking about the expense ratio, my understanding is that is prorated and accrued daily and is subtracted each day from the fund's assets.  Since ETFs are traded on the open market, I *assume* that traders look at what is essentially the NAV and the trades are probably very close to that number.  But the way they do it, you won't see a deduction for the expense ratio as a transaction on your account.

The easiest  to see it would be to look over medium lengths of time.  ETFs that track their index well (as index ETFs should) should fall short by about the expense ratio.  For example, if you look at the most recent VOO annual report:

https://personal1.vanguard.com/funds/reports/q400.pdf?2210212381

You'll see that the VOO ETF expense ratio is 0.03% (page 5), and the NAV increased by 26.25% vs. 26.29% for the index (page 6).

[SilentC]

Do you have time to do a test trade/trade some small amount like $100 and then you will know exactly the fees?  I’ve done that before to save time.

[bacchi]

There's no fee (or taxes) for a Vanguard tax advantaged account. You sell $100 and buy $100.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

How do I figure out how much it costs to exchange a fund or ETF within the same retirement account? 
Example:  I want to exchange $100 worth of VTSAX and change it to $100 worth of VOO.
Vanguard shows this as a no-commission transaction, but there are fees somewhere, right?

Vanguard's patented process only allows converting mutual fund shares to ETF shares.
VTSAX can only be converted to VTI.  Vanguard has a patent on pooling mutual funds and ETF assets together, which is why Vanguard can perform a mutual fund to ETF conversion (VTSAX to VTI).  Vanguard won't allow you to convert in the other direction.

I’ve assumed that they just shaved some amount off when they sold and that I end up with slightly less than $100 of VOO.

No sale occurs.  Vanguard holds VTSAX and VTI assets as separate share classes of the same pool of assets.  When you exchange VTSAX into VTI, Vanguard updates their accounting records, moving your holdings from one class of shares to another.  You start and end with the same amount of assets.

Similar question for the annual fee. There is no place that I’ve ever seen a transaction that says “.003% deduction for annual fee”. How do I spot that on my records?

This happens inside the fund, not in your account.  When stocks issue cash dividends, the fund or ETF uses some of that cash to pay for expenses.  The expense ratio comes out of the dividends, and then the rest is distributed to shareholders.  Since this happens inside the fund, not in your account, there is no place in your account to view it.

[secondcor521]

How do I figure out how much it costs to exchange a fund or ETF within the same retirement account? 
Example:  I want to exchange $100 worth of VTSAX and change it to $100 worth of VOO.
Vanguard shows this as a no-commission transaction, but there are fees somewhere, right?

Vanguard's patented process only allows converting mutual fund shares to ETF shares.
VTSAX can only be converted to VTI.  Vanguard has a patent on pooling mutual funds and ETF assets together, which is why Vanguard can perform a mutual fund to ETF conversion (VTSAX to VTI).  Vanguard won't allow you to convert in the other direction.

I’ve assumed that they just shaved some amount off when they sold and that I end up with slightly less than $100 of VOO.

No sale occurs.  Vanguard holds VTSAX and VTI assets as separate share classes of the same pool of assets.  When you exchange VTSAX into VTI, Vanguard updates their accounting records, moving your holdings from one class of shares to another.  You start and end with the same amount of assets.

All true, but OP was asking about VTSAX to VOO (not VTI) and using the word "exchange".  "Exchange" is just Vanguard's term for a sale "immediately" followed by a buy.  So in the case of VTSAX to VOO, there would actually be a sale (with associated tax ramifications if in a taxable account) followed by a buy.  Still zero commission if done at Vanguard, I think.

One thing I don't know of is the exact speed of the transaction.  When I exchange Vanguard mutual funds, it happens after  the close at the closing price.  I assume the sell of VTSAX would happen after the close, but I don't know when and what price you'd get on the VOO purchase.  Maybe the closing price that same day?

[ATtiny85]

Why do you think there is an annual fee?

If held at Vanguard there is no fee, nothing to see or record anywhere. Your balance is your balance, will stay your balance.

Now, if you are holding this in a 401k (or other work plans perhaps), there could be a fee, but I don’t think that is what you are after.

[bacchi]

How do I figure out how much it costs to exchange a fund or ETF within the same retirement account? 
Example:  I want to exchange $100 worth of VTSAX and change it to $100 worth of VOO.
Vanguard shows this as a no-commission transaction, but there are fees somewhere, right?

Vanguard's patented process only allows converting mutual fund shares to ETF shares.
VTSAX can only be converted to VTI.  Vanguard has a patent on pooling mutual funds and ETF assets together, which is why Vanguard can perform a mutual fund to ETF conversion (VTSAX to VTI).  Vanguard won't allow you to convert in the other direction.

I’ve assumed that they just shaved some amount off when they sold and that I end up with slightly less than $100 of VOO.

No sale occurs.  Vanguard holds VTSAX and VTI assets as separate share classes of the same pool of assets.  When you exchange VTSAX into VTI, Vanguard updates their accounting records, moving your holdings from one class of shares to another.  You start and end with the same amount of assets.

All true, but OP was asking about VTSAX to VOO (not VTI) and using the word "exchange".  "Exchange" is just Vanguard's term for a sale "immediately" followed by a buy.  So in the case of VTSAX to VOO, there would actually be a sale (with associated tax ramifications if in a taxable account) followed by a buy.  Still zero commission if done at Vanguard, I think.

One thing I don't know of is the exact speed of the transaction.  When I exchange Vanguard mutual funds, it happens after  the close at the closing price.  I assume the sell of VTSAX would happen after the close, but I don't know when and what price you'd get on the VOO purchase.  Maybe the closing price that same day?

Vanguard only allows an "exchange" between (Vanguard only?) funds. There's no exchange from a fund to an ETF.

I'm guessing @BlueHouse just wants to sell one fund/ETF and then buy another.

In that case, it's a two step process over two days.

1) Sell VTSAX (or another mutual fund) and the transaction happens after closing.
2) Next day, enter a buy and use those proceeds to buy VOO.

[EliteZags]

Vanguard actually can 'convert' mutual fund to equivalent etf, so would be able convert VTSAX to VTI first (call to have this done), then the next day exchange VTI into VOO so there should be no time out of market

[MustacheAndaHalf]

How do I figure out how much it costs to exchange a fund or ETF within the same retirement account? 
Example:  I want to exchange $100 worth of VTSAX and change it to $100 worth of VOO.
Vanguard shows this as a no-commission transaction, but there are fees somewhere, right?

Vanguard's patented process only allows converting mutual fund shares to ETF shares.
VTSAX can only be converted to VTI.  Vanguard has a patent on pooling mutual funds and ETF assets together, which is why Vanguard can perform a mutual fund to ETF conversion (VTSAX to VTI).  Vanguard won't allow you to convert in the other direction.

I’ve assumed that they just shaved some amount off when they sold and that I end up with slightly less than $100 of VOO.

No sale occurs.  Vanguard holds VTSAX and VTI assets as separate share classes of the same pool of assets.  When you exchange VTSAX into VTI, Vanguard updates their accounting records, moving your holdings from one class of shares to another.  You start and end with the same amount of assets.

All true, but OP was asking about VTSAX to VOO (not VTI) and using the word "exchange".  "Exchange" is just Vanguard's term for a sale "immediately" followed by a buy.  So in the case of VTSAX to VOO, there would actually be a sale (with associated tax ramifications if in a taxable account) followed by a buy.  Still zero commission if done at Vanguard, I think.

Vanguard's account menus have options to "trade", which is what you're describing, and to "exchange", which moves money between two selected mutual funds.  I assumed OP knew how to sell something, and so was asking about something more complex, like conversion between share classes.  In the forum, people have asked about converting Vanguard mutual funds to ETF equivalents before, but I don't recall anyone asking how to sell something.  So I assumed this was a more complex question about converting.

One thing I don't know of is the exact speed of the transaction.  When I exchange Vanguard mutual funds, it happens after  the close at the closing price.  I assume the sell of VTSAX would happen after the close, but I don't know when and what price you'd get on the VOO purchase.  Maybe the closing price that same day?

I don't think this is supported on Vanguard's website.  It has been years since I held mutual funds in my Vanguard account, so maybe I'm out of date.

Mutual funds are only priced after the market closes, which is also when Vanguard would handle purchases and redemptions for VTSAX.  Since that happens when the market is closed, they can't buy ETF shares at that time.  As far as I know, Vanguard doesn't support after-hours trading of ETF shares.  I also think any purchase of an ETF has to be performed manually by the customer, which also makes me think this can't happen automatically.  There is no ability to automatically purchase ETF shares at Vanguard, as far as I know.

[EliteZags]

again Vanguard will convert their mutual fund to equivalent ETF for you, no time out of market

did it a few months ago to transfer Roth to RH for the 3% bonus

[BlueHouse]

If you're talking about the expense ratio, my understanding is that is prorated and accrued daily and is subtracted each day from the fund's assets.  Since ETFs are traded on the open market, I *assume* that traders look at what is essentially the NAV and the trades are probably very close to that number.  But the way they do it, you won't see a deduction for the expense ratio as a transaction on your account.

^This is exactly what I was looking for.  That makes sense.

This happens inside the fund, not in your account.  When stocks issue cash dividends, the fund or ETF uses some of that cash to pay for expenses.  The expense ratio comes out of the dividends, and then the rest is distributed to shareholders.  Since this happens inside the fund, not in your account, there is no place in your account to view it.

That makes much more sense than what I envisioned.  Thanks for the info!

So if the ER comes out of dividends, how would the same process work for a fund or ETF that is 100% growth? 

[maizefolk]

In that case my understanding is that it comes from either selling a tiny fraction of the underlying stock(s) held by the ETF or by buying slightly less new stock as additional people buy into the mutual fund and/or additional shares of the ETF are created.

Either of those very slightly reduce the net assess value per share over time but also don't show up as a fee in your account.