Author Topic: Energy Transition Speculation  (Read 3244 times)

stachebot

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Energy Transition Speculation
« on: October 10, 2022, 12:34:08 PM »
Let’s engage in some speculation around the energy transition!

Baseline Assumption
This thread operates under the assumption that the energy transition will occur in a rapid fashion and will take the form of an “all of the above” strategy using wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, nuclear, battery storage, hydrogen, carbon capture etc.  This is not a thread to debate whether renewables can meet our future energy requirements, whether climate change is happening, or to overly promote or disparage any particular technology in an unproductive way.

Speculation vs Investing
I used the word “Speculation” in this thread’s title instead of “Investing” because trying to select individual stocks, even a portfolio of stocks within an industry, does not meet the definition of investing as defined by Benjamin Graham in “The Intelligent Investor.”  Specifically he warns against doing exactly what this thread proposes using the airline industry as an example.  In the early days of air travel, it seemed obvious that air traffic volume would “grow spectacularly over the years.  Because of this factor their shares became a favorite choice of the investment funds.  But despite the expansion of revenues–at a pace even greater than in the computer industry–a combination of technological problems and overexpansion of capacity made for fluctuating and even disastrous profit figures.” This points to two lessons:
Quote
  • Obvious prospects for physical growth in a business do not translate into obvious profits for investors.
  • The experts do not have dependable ways of selecting and concentrating on the most promising companies in the most promising industries
Benjamin Graham, The Intelligent Investor, Revised Edition

Intent of this thread
With this in mind, I am approaching this project as a fun hobby using only a very small portion of my overall portfolio that I can stand to lose.  The plan is to build a small portfolio of companies involved in the energy transition and to hold them for the long term growth.  The intent of this thread is to learn more about the energy transition and the companies involved in the energy transition with the chance to earn some returns as an additional bonus! 



To kick us off I’ve compiled an initial list of technologies and sectors that I think will make up the energy transition and some companies in each.  I think it would be neat to see posts with additional companies in these sectors, analysis of individual companies, other technologies to invest in, etc.  I haven't vetted or done much research on any of these companies, just trying to come up with an initial list.

Wind & Solar
Wind and Solar are now relatively mature technologies and some of the cheapest ways to produce energy. The coming years and decades will likely see a massive build out of wind and solar.
  • First Solar (FSLR)
  • Canadian Solar (CSIQ)
  • Vestas Wind Systems (VWDRY)
  • Siemens Gamesa Renewable Energy (GCTAY)

Batteries1
Batteries will likely play an important role in everything from transportation (EVs) to utility scale storage of energy to mitigate the intermittent nature of wind and solar. This technology appears to be on a learning curve and we will continue to see costs drop and capacities improve.
  • BYD (BYDD.F)
  • Albemarle (ALB)
  • QuantumScape (QS)
  • Panasonic (PCRFY)
  • Freyer Battery (FREY)

Transportation
In the US transportation is now the biggest source of carbon emissions with 38% of COs emissions vs 33% for electricity.2.  This section has a lot of overlap with the batteries section above.  Does anyone know of a way to invest in ebikes?
  • Tesla (TSLA)

Hydrogen2
Electrolyzers are on a cost curve, which should result in plummeting prices for hydrogen.  Hydrogen will be an important fuel and energy store for difficult to decarbonize industries (e.g. air travel, heavy industry).  This technology is less mature, more risky, and more of a long term play.
  • Bloom Energy (BE)
  • Plug Power (PLUG)
  • Ballard Power (BLDP)
  • FuelCell Energy (FCEL)
  • Fusion Fuel Green PLC (HTOO)

Utilities
There is a lot of work to do to build out transmission lines and infrastructure.
  • NextEra Energy (NEE)

1. List came from https://www.fool.com/investing/stock-market/market-sectors/consumer-discretionary/automotive-stocks/electric-vehicle-battery-stocks/
2. Hal Harvey and Justin Gillis, The Big Fix, pg. 7

bacchi

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2022, 12:39:51 PM »
BYD is also an EV play in China.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2022, 01:38:33 PM »
Nice first post!

I'm heavily influenced by Clayton Christensen's The Innovator's Dilemma. It's almost 30 years old, but a very interesting read for anyone interested in aligning with the future. It actually hits harder due to not talking about recent innovations, which would be a distraction from the timeless trend it proposes.

According to Christensen's theory, new market entrants are forced by competition into selling niche products for lower profits to customers not served by the big incumbents with their mature designs. These niche products are objectively worse than the incumbents' products according to the measurements that matter in that particular industry in that particular area. They are a worse value, have less capability, lower reliability, etc. But they work for a tiny subset of customers with particular needs.

Sometimes the path chosen by the new market entrants has more potential for improvement than the existing designs used by the incumbents. As the new entrants improve their processes and tech, the new designs fall in price or increase in performance at a faster pace than the incumbents' designs. Eventually, this leads to an intersection, where the new design is at parity with the old design, and then the new design becomes superior. Then the process repeats.

Incumbent companies tend to have sunk enormous investments into their old ways of doing things. In addition, they are usually earning higher profit margins today doing things their way than their soon-to-be disruptors are earning with the new design. Therefore it would be very hard for incumbent company executives to justify an investment in a lower-returning line of business (i.e. the new design). At any point in the disruption process, up until the point when the new design becomes objectively superior, the old design looks better from a financial point of view, so they stick with it. But soon, the incumbent company finds itself selling an inferior, dated product and is too far behind to catch up to the disruptors.

Related to the OP, which of the companies listed are the incumbents and which are the disruptors? Are First Solar and Canadian Solar using manufacturing processes that are about to get disrupted by a new, cheaper technique, or are they investing tons into manufacturing R&D? Are the publicly traded battery manufacturers using the same designs that will still be around in 10 or 25 years, or have they all invested large sums into mass-producing technologies that were first developed over a decade ago? Tesla turns 20 years old next summer and is expected to be out-produced by GM's product line of affordable BEVs within the next few years.

To paraphrase Christensen, which of these current companies is the incumbent who has gone all-in on a product design that is about to be surpassed by another product design? Which of today's allegedly cutting-edge technologies is the betamax or Blackberry of the future? Keep in mind that just by selecting for publicly traded companies, we are selecting for older firms that have been producing the existing tech for a while and we are holding them to produce results on their quarterly reports. Their disruptors might be based in a garage for all we know, and it might be 5-10 years before we can buy shares.

I don't have all the answers, but the advice is to look at the rate of improvement in the tech used by niche producers, to be aware of corporate incentives to keep investing in aging business models and product designs for too long, to be aware of selection bias for publicly traded companies, and to look for firms that aggressively spend on R&D and are willing to nurture new product development separate from their main balance sheet.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2022, 01:46:12 PM »
Also, you should have a category for companies facilitating Work-From-Home. WFH tech has the potential to eliminate the need for a lot of building space and transportation expenses. If most of the knowledge economy, sales, customer service, design work, logistics, etc. shifts to WFH then it won't matter what powers the few cars left on the road and there will be no shortage of electricity. WFH is going to do for energy and transportation what the personal computer did for paper. Some companies to watch include:

Microsoft (MSFT)
Salesforce (CRM)
Hubspot (HUBS)
Cisco (CSCO)
Docusign (DOCU)

PDXTabs

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2022, 03:57:54 PM »
I don't have much to add but do own a little bit of KGHG which is trying to find carbon intensive energy producing companies that will actually transition to producing green energy. You can listen to an interview about them here. With that said it is a tiny portion of my portfolio, something like 0.1%.

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2022, 09:37:46 PM »
I don't have a position yet but I'm high on SHEL.  They are making significant changes to capex budget from Oil and Gas to Renewables.  They seem like the odds on favorite to be the first renewables "Super major".

NorCal

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2022, 10:21:58 PM »
I'm just spitballing here, and my thoughts are more about the direction of general markets rather than individual stocks.  I also do some mentoring of startups in the climate space, but it's all still "science project" stage stuff.

Solar and wind are clearly poised for massive growth.  But I'm not convinced that investors will be the winner here.  Solar in particular has devolved to a commodity market.  Production will grow rapidly, but I'm not sure the companies will see enough ROE to justify my investing dollars.

Energy Storage is where I'd look for the next big thing.  With renewables taking off, there's huge economic opportunity in energy arbitrage.  Batteries are great (I hold a tiny position in QS), but picking winners here is tricky.  This is an area where highly promising startups will go down in flames and newcomers you've never heard of will gain massive market share in no time.  I think most of the interesting stuff here is still in the venture stage.  ESS looks interesting and looks like they just got acquired by a SPAC.  Energy Dome is doing an interesting pilot project in Italy.  Utilities will probably build out some pumped hydro storage in areas with favorable geography.  Or maybe the molten salt energy storage will be a technological winner (https://www.cpr.org/2021/09/07/hayden-generating-station-coal-plant-could-become-a-massive-battery-for-renewable-energy/).  There's certainly good technological potential here, but very few investable options today.  You'd probably be best buying a selection of the battery manufacturers supplying EV batteries.

The energy transition will also look very different from what we're used to from Silicon Valley  The players, sources of funding, capital requirements, and growth prospects look very different.

With the inflation reduction act, the US government is about to start throwing large chunks of money at pilot projects for big industrial sites (a very major source of emissions).  Most of the funding is grants or loan guarantees, which means investors can win big, but only the government will lose (financially).  But the beneficiaries of this money will likely be existing big players with deep lobbying pockets.  So you're looking at big winners in places like the steel industry, cement industry, chemicals manufacturing, etc.  It's a long deep list of companies that you wouldn't normally associate with "energy transition".  Keep an eye on who is getting funding, and who seems to have truly better technology. 

Oil & gas is the most interesting to me.  This industry has the world's largest scale and most complex supply chain of any industry I can think of.  They've managed to keep energy prices roughly consistent (albeit highly volatile) on an inflation adjusted basis for about 40 years.  They've done this as oil & gas became more difficult to extract by creating massive economies of scale.  While the US hasn't built more refineries recently, most refineries have managed to increase throughput by something like 20-30% in the last few decades. 

So what does an industry with massive capital assets look like when revenue starts to decline?  What does the business of pipelines, refineries and gas stations look like when there's hypothetically 20% less revenue?  It's not like they can cut interest expenses, depreciation, maintenance, etc.  They survive by raising prices wherever they can.  This will drive even more dollars to alternatives.  My guess is that around 2030ish, some parts of the oil & gas business start to implode rather rapidly.  Maybe it's a little earlier or a little later, but the writing is on the wall for the lower margin players. 
« Last Edit: October 11, 2022, 06:39:13 AM by NorCal »

Metalcat

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2022, 06:26:51 AM »
I'm normally index all the way, but I have one account where I have no choice but to pick a managed fund, so I chose a critical minerals fund.

Zamboni

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2022, 07:11:07 AM »
Great thread! OP, thank you for starting! ChpBstrd, that's a good summary of the innovator's dilemma and disruptive technology. We talked about it quite a bit when I worked in materials for manufacturing and microelectronics.

The innovator's dilemma and the investor's dilemma are indeed paired.

Companies like Albemarle and Panasonic have been in business for a long time. Do they have the foresight to have high quality long range research teams? Or high quality start up acquisitions evaluators? Or are they sitting back and milking the cash cows? The latter is what my old company ultimately decided to do, laying off most of the people focused on innovation within a few years of me leaving. These days it seems like a lot of big, older companies who end up with decent market share of a disruptive technology do so by acquisition of start ups, licensing, or flat out stealing patented tech and daring the little guys to come after them, not by their efforts internally towards innovation. Cynical, I know.

Research is a very expensive enterprise, and most of the project ideas don't ultimately pan out into a product. Most of the ideas just don't work well enough, or they are too slow to market for structural reasons and they get completely beat out on the timing. Paying high salaries and benefits to people working on that in existing corporate America is a lot different than some really young people with no families being willing to work 80 hours a week in their Mom's basement to get their innovative idea funded and off the ground.

But then how do you cut through the BS and pie-in-the-sky talk of some of the start up flim flammers? Elizabeth Holmes isn't the only one out there who wildly stretches the truth about what a new company actually can do or make. There is a whole bunch of skilled people who take "wouldn't it be great if?" ideas and turn it straight into spinning a "we have this, give us money and get in early" tall tales. I know some of them. They are staggeringly good at this. If everyone can see if would be a good idea, then it's a good bet that a large portion of people saying they have the technology actually don't and they are just lying.

Timestamp 4:18 - 6:40 of this video shows it very, very clearly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=314OLE6mKOo
"sell your house of cards while it still looks like a palace"

Again, I know I'm cynical, but I've seen how successful people can be doing this in academia and/or by being serial start up CEO's. Both groups continuously fund raise to launch start ups and milk the early investors for huge personal gain before they bail. Over and over. New company and new company. Yet people still throw money at them, even though none of their start ups ever really panned out, probably because they didn't really have what the guy (sometimes gal, but usually guy) doing the peddling said they had.

After all, the investments that really were disruptive were in fields where most people didn't even understand what a good idea it was. Historically, the start up innovators who really had great ideas or tech had to shove their truly great ideas down people's throats.

Reynold

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2022, 02:10:01 PM »
Perhaps this qualifies as a contrarian view, but I don't see much opportunity to make money as an investor in most of the areas listed by the OP. 

Solar and wind power will only happen with the driving force of government regulations and/or subsidies behind it, and the more successful subsidies are at driving that kind of power the more they will be scaled back, as happened in Germany.  I also suspect solar and wind will be slower to replace generated power than predicted, because it is so hard to get through environmental reviews in developed countries to cover huge amounts of undeveloped land with power plants.  Both solar and wind are low density, so require a lot of land, which means to make them cheap they are far from cities, so now you ALSO need several times more land taken up with electrical distribution systems than you have now.  Finally, China is subsidizing these capital intensive industries far more than anyone else, so it will be hard for any U.S. or European company to stay in business, let alone make fat profits, long term. 

I'm also doubtful about widespread use of hydrogen, it is hard to store and transport as it causes embrittlement of steel.  The energy density of kerosene is about 40 MJ/kg, metal hydride storage of hydrogen is less than half that, so it would be hard to use in jets.  Liquid hydrogen is a nightmare, the Space Launch System just spent the last 2 months trying and mostly failing to pump LH2 into its fuel tanks without leaks. 

Electric cars are certainly doing well, but Tesla is pretty highly valued already.  What companies build the public and private plug in systems for these?  That might be an opportunity.

Batteries I expect to do well, because there is actually demand for those other than what is forced by the government, though there is risk of Chinese subsidization also making that a tough market to make money in.  My favorite battery company is probably Redwood Materials which is actually recycling car batteries, founded by a former Tesla upper executive.  Unfortunately it is still private, and since they just had a $700M private funding round they may be a ways from going public. 

Metalcat

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2022, 02:52:40 PM »
Perhaps this qualifies as a contrarian view, but I don't see much opportunity to make money as an investor in most of the areas listed by the OP. 

Solar and wind power will only happen with the driving force of government regulations and/or subsidies behind it, and the more successful subsidies are at driving that kind of power the more they will be scaled back, as happened in Germany.  I also suspect solar and wind will be slower to replace generated power than predicted, because it is so hard to get through environmental reviews in developed countries to cover huge amounts of undeveloped land with power plants.  Both solar and wind are low density, so require a lot of land, which means to make them cheap they are far from cities, so now you ALSO need several times more land taken up with electrical distribution systems than you have now.  Finally, China is subsidizing these capital intensive industries far more than anyone else, so it will be hard for any U.S. or European company to stay in business, let alone make fat profits, long term. 

I'm also doubtful about widespread use of hydrogen, it is hard to store and transport as it causes embrittlement of steel.  The energy density of kerosene is about 40 MJ/kg, metal hydride storage of hydrogen is less than half that, so it would be hard to use in jets.  Liquid hydrogen is a nightmare, the Space Launch System just spent the last 2 months trying and mostly failing to pump LH2 into its fuel tanks without leaks. 

Electric cars are certainly doing well, but Tesla is pretty highly valued already.  What companies build the public and private plug in systems for these?  That might be an opportunity.

Batteries I expect to do well, because there is actually demand for those other than what is forced by the government, though there is risk of Chinese subsidization also making that a tough market to make money in.  My favorite battery company is probably Redwood Materials which is actually recycling car batteries, founded by a former Tesla upper executive.  Unfortunately it is still private, and since they just had a $700M private funding round they may be a ways from going public.

I also don't see a ton of room for speculation. It's not like I have a bunch of special knowledge about energy transition that other industry specialists don't already have and don't already have baked into the prices of these investments.

I'm sure there's a lot of money to be made along the way, but I don't fancy myself insightful enough to be able to beat index funds, which will already have a lot of energy sector exposure.

stachebot

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2022, 07:58:29 PM »
I just finished reading "The Big Fix: Seven Practical Steps to Save Our Planet"1 which has a couple chapters about energy innovations and the power of cost curves, and I became very excited about the opportunities.  I think that the scale and speed of the transition is massively underappreciated by most people.  However, after reading the many insightful comments above and also reading "The Intelligent Investor"2 I am thoroughly convinced that it would be a massive folly to try my hand at speculating here.  I have no special knowledge other than reading some popular nonfiction books and listening to pods on the topic, so I'm pretty sure I would just lose any money I tried to throw at the energy transition.

Part of the the reason that I wanted to do this in the first place was that I am pretty unimpressed with the idea of ESG investing.  It seems like asking individuals to voluntarily pay higher fees is a bad way to fight climate change. (I'm totally on board with pressuring institutional investors to divest, btw). I thought that building a portfolio of companies involved in the energy transition might be a hedge against any fossil fuel companies in my ETF funds from tanking.  I now realize that this would not be a much of a hedge and the likely scenario would be that I would lose money trying to speculate on the energy transition even while it takes off in addition to losing money on the fossil fuel companies in my ETF.  I am officially abandoning this effort and directing all my contributions to ETFs.  I still think it's fun to think about and learn, so I will still post any research in this thread!

1. https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/59364088-the-big-fix
2. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/106835.The_Intelligent_Investor
« Last Edit: October 11, 2022, 08:01:45 PM by stachebot »

NorCal

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2022, 07:16:36 AM »
I just finished reading "The Big Fix: Seven Practical Steps to Save Our Planet"1 which has a couple chapters about energy innovations and the power of cost curves, and I became very excited about the opportunities.  I think that the scale and speed of the transition is massively underappreciated by most people.  However, after reading the many insightful comments above and also reading "The Intelligent Investor"2 I am thoroughly convinced that it would be a massive folly to try my hand at speculating here.  I have no special knowledge other than reading some popular nonfiction books and listening to pods on the topic, so I'm pretty sure I would just lose any money I tried to throw at the energy transition.

Part of the the reason that I wanted to do this in the first place was that I am pretty unimpressed with the idea of ESG investing.  It seems like asking individuals to voluntarily pay higher fees is a bad way to fight climate change. (I'm totally on board with pressuring institutional investors to divest, btw). I thought that building a portfolio of companies involved in the energy transition might be a hedge against any fossil fuel companies in my ETF funds from tanking.  I now realize that this would not be a much of a hedge and the likely scenario would be that I would lose money trying to speculate on the energy transition even while it takes off in addition to losing money on the fossil fuel companies in my ETF.  I am officially abandoning this effort and directing all my contributions to ETFs.  I still think it's fun to think about and learn, so I will still post any research in this thread!

1. https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/59364088-the-big-fix
2. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/106835.The_Intelligent_Investor

I think you're very correct that picking winners is hard here.  To use the steel industry as an example, I think there are 1-3 steel companies that place big bets on zero-carbon steel and do INCREDIBLY well on it.  But it's very hard to figure out whether that will be US Steel, ArcelorMittal, or some tiny company no one has heard of.

If you were to try and speculate, I'd look at anything going public out of Breakthrough Energy Ventures.  Breakthrough has managed to do with climate funding what some of the early Silicon Valley VC's did by creating a network effect.  The startups with the best prospects want to get funded by Breakthrough, and Breakthrough sees the best deals.  They also have enough thought leadership in the space that they heavily influence public policy.

It doesn't mean every company coming from there will succeed (most won't), but I fully expect the small percentage of companies that make a massive impact will have some connection with them.

TomTX

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2022, 03:25:39 PM »
Solar and wind power will only happen with the driving force of government regulations and/or subsidies behind it,
Mmm. You seem to be at least years behind the present reality. Wind and solar will continue to happen irrespective of government subsidies.

Subsidies can definitely speed the process, but unless there is truly punitive taxation/regulation or an outright ban - wind and solar will continue to take market share of the energy markets due to low LCOE.

Wintergreen78

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2022, 10:01:29 PM »
Solar and wind power will only happen with the driving force of government regulations and/or subsidies behind it,
Mmm. You seem to be at least years behind the present reality. Wind and solar will continue to happen irrespective of government subsidies.

Subsidies can definitely speed the process, but unless there is truly punitive taxation/regulation or an outright ban - wind and solar will continue to take market share of the energy markets due to low LCOE.

Yep - that take is wildly out of date. Wind and solar are making up a meaningful percentage of total energy production, and will likely get added at an even faster rate in the future. They made up about 5% of total US energy consumption in 2021, up from 1% in 2010. During that time coal dropped from 21% of all energy to less than 11%. The only fossil fuel source that increased over that time was natural gas.

65% of the new electric generating capacity added this year will be from wind and solar. 76% of the capacity retired this year was coal. If you are operating under the assumption that wind and solar power won’t become a bigger and bigger part of the energy mix, you aren’t basing that on reality.


https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/sites/flowcharts/files/2022-04/Energy_2021_United-States_0.png

https://lawprofessors.typepad.com/environmental_law/2011/12/the-2010-us-energy-use-flowchart-.html

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=53299





Wintergreen78

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2022, 10:12:32 PM »
And, a more direct rebuttal of the nonsense about cost of wind and solar, on average they are the cheapest option for new electricity generation along with combined cycle power plants, before tax credits are considered. After tax credits, solar is the cheapest new power generation you can build on average. If you have a good, cost-effective location to build wind power, it is the cheapest even before tax credits are considered.

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/pdf/electricity_generation.pdf

NorCal

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2022, 09:24:39 AM »
I agree on the last few points. Wind, solar and storage are the future of electricity, and are the cheapest forms of energy, even without subsidies. The biggest impediments to adoption are:

1. Sufficient transmission capabilities
2. Permitting and regulatory considerations.  For residential solar, sales, marketing and permitting is now greater than half of the total project cost. Labor, panels and inverters are the cheap parts.
3. The high cost of retiring coal and gas plants.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2022, 11:45:15 AM »
Cummins might be an interesting option in both the transportation and hydrogen categories. In recent years they've acquired both high and low voltage battery companies, an electrolyzer company, a hybrid/electric drivetrain company, and partnered with a hydrogen storage company. They've already got EV powertrains, hydrogen electrolyzers and hydrogen fuel cells in public use and it seems like they're set up to supply all aspects of about any powertrain/energy solution that a customer might need not only in commercial work/transport but even into the energy sector. Different regions will prefer/regulate/incentivize different technologies, and their global footprint should help to provide some diversification while meeting customer needs.


Paper Chaser

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2022, 11:56:43 AM »
If Tesla is too expensive, good old GM might be an interesting play in the transportation sector as well. I've been very impressed with their plan for the new Ultium battery tech and various motors. The modular nature of the batteries, motors, and wireless battery management should allow them to use the same tech in various trim levels of the same vehicles (allowing for a wide price range with a given vehicle), but also in various vehicles. And it will cut down on assembly time as well as vehicle development time frames, allowing them to bring vehicles to market more quickly. They've got tons of battery production in the works to scale and keep $kwh low.

They've already got a partnership with Honda to use the Ultium tech and more of their competition may become their customers in the future.

Their Brightdrop commercial delivery unit has some potential as well with customers like FedEx, Walmart and Verizon on board already.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2022, 12:01:27 PM by Paper Chaser »

TomTX

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2022, 01:23:47 PM »
I agree on the last few points. Wind, solar and storage are the future of electricity, and are the cheapest forms of energy, even without subsidies. The biggest impediments to adoption are:

1. Sufficient transmission capabilities
2. Permitting and regulatory considerations.  For residential solar, sales, marketing and permitting is now greater than half of the total project cost. Labor, panels and inverters are the cheap parts.
3. The high cost of retiring coal and gas plants.
Interestingly, storage can be used to mitigate transmission congestion by being located close to the demand centers, whether a large facility close to the city or even a smaller storage facility at the local substation. When demand is low, fill up the storage from the (temporarily uncongested) transmission. When demand is high, supplement by discharging the local storage.

NorCal

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2022, 02:34:27 PM »
I agree on the last few points. Wind, solar and storage are the future of electricity, and are the cheapest forms of energy, even without subsidies. The biggest impediments to adoption are:

1. Sufficient transmission capabilities
2. Permitting and regulatory considerations.  For residential solar, sales, marketing and permitting is now greater than half of the total project cost. Labor, panels and inverters are the cheap parts.
3. The high cost of retiring coal and gas plants.
Interestingly, storage can be used to mitigate transmission congestion by being located close to the demand centers, whether a large facility close to the city or even a smaller storage facility at the local substation. When demand is low, fill up the storage from the (temporarily uncongested) transmission. When demand is high, supplement by discharging the local storage.

The companies that are going to make a KILLING in the next few years are those who figure out how to make energy storage viable at commercial scale.

For the moment, it's less of an energy transition play than an amazing arbitrage opportunity.  Although it is highly related to the energy transition as well.

If you look at CA, they are producing so much energy in mid-day that they have to load-shed.  Wholesale electricity is essentially free at that time.  But only a few hours later they are going into demand emergency mode when the sun starts going down and wholesale prices go through the roof. (as a note, this is only based on news articles; I have no direct insight into wholesale energy markets)

Those who can can buy electricity for near-zero and resell it into a supply-starved market will do incredibly well.

I am going to keep my eye on ESS.  Their financials are more akin to a venture backed company than a public company, but I think they have potential.

https://essinc.com/

Wintergreen78

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2022, 07:46:20 PM »
Yep - the EIA paper I linked above shows that battery storage is really expensive right now. Anyone who figures out how to store and re-sell electricity at lower cost has a huge opportunity.

There are a lot of people working on ideas to store energy mechanically, or with battery chemistries that can be cheaper than lithium ion. I’m not sure what will win out, but if I felt like gambling I’d bet on whoever I thought would win this race.

SilentC

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2022, 06:00:22 AM »
Does XLE count?  The oil industry is going to make boatloads of money due to fossil fuel price inflation during the transition.

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2022, 04:56:46 PM »
RNG is the rage right now.  I don't know the best way to profit off it (should have tried 2 years ago), but there is still some legs left with it.

Le Poisson

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2022, 05:14:19 PM »
I'm in Toronto and I think @NorCal has hit the nail on the head as things relate to our situation.

Our electricity is mostly nuclear, hydro, wind, and solar. i don't think we have any coal plants still on line. Our squeeze is not in generation - similar to teh California situation, we over-generate for our needs, and then have to dump excess on other markets (I believe we dump overnight into NY state).

The challenge we are facing is distribution. As sprawl and demand grow, our existing transmission network cannot keep pace. Centralized generation (nuke plants) mean that batteries in outlying areas would still need to be fed by the existing under-sized transmission network. Some time ago, the corridor reserved for the expansion of the grid was sold to foreign investors to build a toll highway (Hwy 407) to feed the transportation needs of sprawl, and electricity transmission got the short end of the stick. Nimbyism is forcing the expansion of the existing generation projects rather than new initiatives, so the existing network keeps getting asked to take more and more load and capacity is (quickly) running out.

The upshot of all this is that I see the best investment strategy to be in energy distribution infrastructure and not in generation/storage. I don't know if the winners will be the bonds that fund these transmission projects, investment in industrial electrical contractors who build them, or in the manufacturers building components of the transmission networks, but getting the power onto the grid and to market is where I would place my bets.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2022, 05:17:27 PM by Le Poisson »

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2022, 01:31:13 PM »
PTF.

@stachebot, thanks for interesting topic. I support your portfolio decisions; thanks for updating us so quickly after thinking it through.

I find Aptera to be an interesting company that is building niche EVs, capable of running off built-in solar cells. It's not traded yet, but open to individual investment by purchasing shares in its intermittent Series A funding. Full disclosure: I bought in an earlier round (less than 1% of portfolio). No real way to evaluate financially afaik. https://invest.aptera.us/

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2022, 01:55:39 PM »
The transition may be long. The transition from coal to petroleum has been ongoing more than a century.  Coal production peaked around a decade ago and coal is still something 30% of all electricity production.  Maybe the renewables transition will be faster. It is off to a fast start, but then again petroleum took off pretty rapidly as well early in the 20th century.

Le Poisson

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2022, 02:38:04 PM »
The transition may be long. The transition from coal to petroleum has been ongoing more than a century.  Coal production peaked around a decade ago and coal is still something 30% of all electricity production.  Maybe the renewables transition will be faster. It is off to a fast start, but then again petroleum took off pretty rapidly as well early in the 20th century.

Is this an international or a local view? I ask in seriousness because in my own myopia, our market (Ontario) has mostly weaned itself from coal/oil. (Edit: I didn't realize we were still at 30% "gas". Higher than I though, but still not as high as many markets.)



Sauce: https://www.ieso.ca//en/Learn/Ontario-Electricity-Grid/Supply-Mix-and-Generation
« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 02:39:37 PM by Le Poisson »

NorCal

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2022, 03:03:32 PM »
PTF.

@stachebot, thanks for interesting topic. I support your portfolio decisions; thanks for updating us so quickly after thinking it through.

I find Aptera to be an interesting company that is building niche EVs, capable of running off built-in solar cells. It's not traded yet, but open to individual investment by purchasing shares in its intermittent Series A funding. Full disclosure: I bought in an earlier round (less than 1% of portfolio). No real way to evaluate financially afaik. https://invest.aptera.us/

I'd be careful with that.  I like the Apterra as a concept car, and would even consider buying one if the company makes it.  But I briefly read through their financial materials, and it's a company full of red flags.  They had less than $30M cash at the end of 2021, and the amount needed to get a car to market is measuring in the hundreds of millions.  I'm skeptical of their ability to raise that type of capital in this market.

NorCal

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2022, 03:06:02 PM »
The transition may be long. The transition from coal to petroleum has been ongoing more than a century.  Coal production peaked around a decade ago and coal is still something 30% of all electricity production.  Maybe the renewables transition will be faster. It is off to a fast start, but then again petroleum took off pretty rapidly as well early in the 20th century.

Is this an international or a local view? I ask in seriousness because in my own myopia, our market (Ontario) has mostly weaned itself from coal/oil. (Edit: I didn't realize we were still at 30% "gas". Higher than I though, but still not as high as many markets.)



Sauce: https://www.ieso.ca//en/Learn/Ontario-Electricity-Grid/Supply-Mix-and-Generation

That certainly doesn't cover the US. 

This is my favorite site for US data, although it only goes through 2020.  You can view the energy mix, emissions by plant, or emissions per mWh by state. 

https://www.epa.gov/egrid/data-explorer

BicycleB

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2022, 07:13:03 PM »
PTF.

@stachebot, thanks for interesting topic. I support your portfolio decisions; thanks for updating us so quickly after thinking it through.

I find Aptera to be an interesting company that is building niche EVs, capable of running off built-in solar cells. It's not traded yet, but open to individual investment by purchasing shares in its intermittent Series A funding. Full disclosure: I bought in an earlier round (less than 1% of portfolio). No real way to evaluate financially afaik. https://invest.aptera.us/

I'd be careful with that.  I like the Apterra as a concept car, and would even consider buying one if the company makes it.  But I briefly read through their financial materials, and it's a company full of red flags.  They had less than $30M cash at the end of 2021, and the amount needed to get a car to market is measuring in the hundreds of millions.  I'm skeptical of their ability to raise that type of capital in this market.

Yeah, I probably won't ever get that money back. It's a good example that even an interesting or useful product doesn't mean investor profits. Early stage investment is very speculative / risky.

Also since there's no secondary market, I'm just locked in for the ride.

GilesMM

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2022, 06:04:49 AM »


Is this an international or a local view? I ask in seriousness because in my own myopia, our market (Ontario) has mostly weaned itself from coal/oil. (Edit: I didn't realize we were still at 30% "gas". Higher than I though, but still not as high as many markets.)


Global, since we all share the same planet and atmosphere ;-)

I think the US is a bit under 20% coal and 40% gas. 

China is near 70% coal and is at PEAK historic production as of last month.  India is not far behind China.  Just moving India and China off coal to anything clear, like diesel or gas, would be a huge improvement. But it will take a decade or two and some will.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2022, 10:18:15 AM »
When we look at "green tech" like solar, wind, nuclear, BEVs, etc. we are often thinking in the same way we think about computers and software. From the 1980s to the 2010s computers and software revolutionized our culture and changed the way everything worked. Moore's Law was, well, a law. This rapid pace of change went on for decades, and was unprecedented. It was compared to transformative technologies like railroads, internal-combustion-engines, and airplanes.

It's very possible the energy transition moves at a slower pace than consumer electronics. There is no Moore's Law, but there are lots of laws of physics to contend with. Today's wind turbines look a lot like the optimizations that were made a decade ago, today's solar panels may be close to the physical limits of their potential efficiency, and massive amounts of money have been poured into geothermal or nuclear research - and yet they remain cost prohibitive in most places. Meanwhile, hydroelectric dams - the original green energy - are being demolished more than they are being built or refurbished.

It was a no-brainer to replace typewriters, hand-written spreadsheets, and paper memos with computers and emails in the 1990s, and to replace last-generation IT equipment with newer models that promised higher efficiency. However certain economic realities have to align in order to replace a power plant with a 30-50 year lifespan, or to take offline a fossil-fuel asset that has 10-20 years of lifespan remaining and outstanding bonds and contracts tied to its assumed production. Similarly, the adoption of BEVs may depend on a rollout of fast chargers to millions of locations and a worldwide increase in mining capacity, each of which is a multi-decade change involving hard infrastructure and massive projects. These changes are not as simple as a new desktop machine shipped in a box or a software upgrade. 

So it's possible that instead of a massive growth industry, the energy transition is a slow, 40 year trend.

NorCal

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2022, 01:44:11 PM »
When we look at "green tech" like solar, wind, nuclear, BEVs, etc. we are often thinking in the same way we think about computers and software. From the 1980s to the 2010s computers and software revolutionized our culture and changed the way everything worked. Moore's Law was, well, a law. This rapid pace of change went on for decades, and was unprecedented. It was compared to transformative technologies like railroads, internal-combustion-engines, and airplanes.

It's very possible the energy transition moves at a slower pace than consumer electronics. There is no Moore's Law, but there are lots of laws of physics to contend with. Today's wind turbines look a lot like the optimizations that were made a decade ago, today's solar panels may be close to the physical limits of their potential efficiency, and massive amounts of money have been poured into geothermal or nuclear research - and yet they remain cost prohibitive in most places. Meanwhile, hydroelectric dams - the original green energy - are being demolished more than they are being built or refurbished.

It was a no-brainer to replace typewriters, hand-written spreadsheets, and paper memos with computers and emails in the 1990s, and to replace last-generation IT equipment with newer models that promised higher efficiency. However certain economic realities have to align in order to replace a power plant with a 30-50 year lifespan, or to take offline a fossil-fuel asset that has 10-20 years of lifespan remaining and outstanding bonds and contracts tied to its assumed production. Similarly, the adoption of BEVs may depend on a rollout of fast chargers to millions of locations and a worldwide increase in mining capacity, each of which is a multi-decade change involving hard infrastructure and massive projects. These changes are not as simple as a new desktop machine shipped in a box or a software upgrade. 

So it's possible that instead of a massive growth industry, the energy transition is a slow, 40 year trend.

Very true.  This is happening in real-time here in Colorado.  We have a some massive coal plants that are scheduled to be retired because of the state's clean energy mandates.

What's driving some of the big expenses (which are flowing through to ratepayers) are things like:
1. We have some great areas for windpower here, but they need to expand transmission lines.  They just approved some rate increases for this.
2. Decommissioning the power plants required paying off the assets.  Again, the ratepayers are picking this up.
3. Political support required guaranteeing 10 years property tax payments to the localities that were losing a major employer and a big part of their tax base.  They are offsetting part of this cost by putting some massive new renewable projects in these districts. 

All of this only happens with a lot of political will, and a lot of checks written by ratepayers.  Some localities are willing to pay these costs.  Many are not.

Still, I expect solar to get somewhat more efficient over time.  Just not at the rate we've seen over the last few decades.  Also, we're at the point where more than 50% of the cost of residential solar has to do with things like marketing, permitting and connection costs.  There's some room to cut costs with simplified permitting.

Onshore wind may be reaching the limits of practical improvements, as maximum turbine size is now governed by things like underpass height and road width.  But offshore wind has a lot of untapped potential.

I'd still put my money on improvements in storage, as that has the potential to change the dynamics of entire energy markets.  And the predominant technology (lithium ion) is one where every tradeoff has been made to improve energy density.  And they're using it in applications where energy density isn't really that important. 

BicycleB

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2022, 12:41:56 AM »
massive amounts of money have been poured into geothermal or nuclear research - and yet they remain cost prohibitive in most places.

Side note - I think geothermal has not been adequately researched to find optimal cost structure. When I relocate the article on the topic I saw recently, will post.

Still I agree with the general point that the energy transition will overall happen slowly rather than quickly; more specifically, many carbon-emitting power plants will be difficult to replace in less than 40 years. So I also agree that speculation on the energy transition is a tricky, long-odds game unlikely to produce extraordinary profits by direct investment without special luck or skill.

@NorCal has valid points too. Yet in the long term, I think barriers such as battery efficiency or more broadly cost effectiveness of energy storage are likely to improve beyond the current level. Of course the point that this takes time is very valid.



Le Poisson

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2022, 07:14:24 AM »


Is this an international or a local view? I ask in seriousness because in my own myopia, our market (Ontario) has mostly weaned itself from coal/oil. (Edit: I didn't realize we were still at 30% "gas". Higher than I though, but still not as high as many markets.)


Global, since we all share the same planet and atmosphere ;-)

I think the US is a bit under 20% coal and 40% gas. 

China is near 70% coal and is at PEAK historic production as of last month.  India is not far behind China.  Just moving India and China off coal to anything clear, like diesel or gas, would be a huge improvement. But it will take a decade or two and some will.

I should have worded that differently. I agree that the impacts of emissions from energy production are global - my question is whether the specific energy data you were referencing was relevant to your jurisdiction, and whether the investment opportunities you see are global or local.

Also realized I'm a dumbass and referenced the wrong chart. The graph I shared is generation potential, not energy output. On actual generation we are doing far better - however as our demands increases and our nuke plants age out we will need to adjust our mix.


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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2022, 08:29:36 AM »
massive amounts of money have been poured into geothermal or nuclear research - and yet they remain cost prohibitive in most places.

Side note - I think geothermal has not been adequately researched to find optimal cost structure. When I relocate the article on the topic I saw recently, will post.
Yea, nuclear has gotten orders of magnitude more funding. Fortunately, geothermal has started a bit of a renaissance recently.

GuitarStv

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2022, 09:11:30 AM »
Also realized I'm a dumbass and referenced the wrong chart. The graph I shared is generation potential, not energy output. On actual generation we are doing far better - however as our demands increases and our nuke plants age out we will need to adjust our mix.

Is the plan to age out our nuclear plants?  I have engineering friends working at the Pickering and the Bruce nuclear reactor.  They're both busy upgrading and expanding capacity at a pretty good pace.

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2022, 09:19:38 AM »

I should have worded that differently. I agree that the impacts of emissions from energy production are global - my question is whether the specific energy data you were referencing was relevant to your jurisdiction, and whether the investment opportunities you see are global or local.
...

Still not sure what you mean, but my "jurisdiction" is middling in terms of clean energy transition. We have 68% renewable electricity, mostly hydro which is legacy, not a transition option. Electricity prices are at the national average (about 11 cents/kwh) so domestic solar takes about a decade to pay off even with new 30% incentive.  State level solar and electric car incentives are modest to low so few electric cars (relative to, say, California which has had huge incentives such as car pool lane access and astronomical petrol prices).  In this state and the US in general it will take a combination of 2-3x higher prices for natural gas (e.g. $10-15/mcf) and oil ($200-300/bbl) plus federal and state incentives to get people and industries to transition at a reasonable pace.  If those prices occur, the investment opportunity may be in oil and gas companies who will be minting money until the transition is complete.

Le Poisson

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2022, 09:24:36 AM »
Also realized I'm a dumbass and referenced the wrong chart. The graph I shared is generation potential, not energy output. On actual generation we are doing far better - however as our demands increases and our nuke plants age out we will need to adjust our mix.

Is the plan to age out our nuclear plants?  I have engineering friends working at the Pickering and the Bruce nuclear reactor.  They're both busy upgrading and expanding capacity at a pretty good pace.

Depends.

The Pickering plant is past prime and needs to be aged out. It was supposed to be offline already, but the standing Premiere has asked that it be bandaged to last to the end of his term despite the cost of maintenance outweighing net profitability. Unfortunately that same Premiere axed a number of energy saving initiatives early in his mandate which would have made it easier to transition from that plant to other options.

So the short answer is - the Pickering Nuke plant needs to come offline and be rebuilt to run revenue neutral. Politically there is no will to either enact policy to make that possible, or to make the tough decision to spend a lot of money to keep it online. Maintaining status quo - despite the aging infrastructure - avoids the tough decision. The work your friends are doing is likely related to making an old dog run.

https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/2022/09/28/ontario-trying-to-delay-shutdown-of-pickering-nuclear-station-amid-electricity-supply-crunch-sources-say.html

Le Poisson

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2022, 09:28:31 AM »

I should have worded that differently. I agree that the impacts of emissions from energy production are global - my question is whether the specific energy data you were referencing was relevant to your jurisdiction, and whether the investment opportunities you see are global or local.
...

Still not sure what you mean, but my "jurisdiction" is middling in terms of clean energy transition. We have 68% renewable electricity, mostly hydro which is legacy, not a transition option. Electricity prices are at the national average (about 11 cents/kwh) so domestic solar takes about a decade to pay off even with new 30% incentive.  State level solar and electric car incentives are modest to low so few electric cars (relative to, say, California which has had huge incentives such as car pool lane access and astronomical petrol prices).  In this state and the US in general it will take a combination of 2-3x higher prices for natural gas (e.g. $10-15/mcf) and oil ($200-300/bbl) plus federal and state incentives to get people and industries to transition at a reasonable pace.  If those prices occur, the investment opportunity may be in oil and gas companies who will be minting money until the transition is complete.

Plain language:

Do you see investment opportunity in local projects (funding local generation, contractors, improvements etc.) or in global initiatives (technology, research, broader energy applications).

PDXTabs

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2022, 11:06:23 AM »
So I also agree that speculation on the energy transition is a tricky, long-odds game unlikely to produce extraordinary profits by direct investment without special luck or skill.

Let's pretend that the energy transition is wildly successful. That doesn't mean that retail investors will make money. The Railway Mania in 19th century Britain was wildly successful at transforming the economy and society. But retail investors lost a lot of money. The same thing is true for the dot com bubble. Innovative companies ran fiber across oceans only to go bankrupt and wipe out their shareholders. Today we use that fiber. The internet revolution was successful for society but not the investors in Global Crossing.

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2022, 11:13:03 AM »

Plain language:

Do you see investment opportunity in local projects (funding local generation, contractors, improvements etc.) or in global initiatives (technology, research, broader energy applications).

The most significant effort, impact and investment opportunity in this space the last decade or so has been Tesla.  I'm not sure I would buy TSLA today, but certainly some will.  It seems to be a bit of a roller coaster.

What we need next is a similar disruption when it comes to clean electricity (to power those Tesla cars plus our wildly increasing needs for power for our IT toys).  Will it come from a single company?   Seems unlikely.

NorCal

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2022, 11:20:27 AM »

I should have worded that differently. I agree that the impacts of emissions from energy production are global - my question is whether the specific energy data you were referencing was relevant to your jurisdiction, and whether the investment opportunities you see are global or local.
...

Still not sure what you mean, but my "jurisdiction" is middling in terms of clean energy transition. We have 68% renewable electricity, mostly hydro which is legacy, not a transition option. Electricity prices are at the national average (about 11 cents/kwh) so domestic solar takes about a decade to pay off even with new 30% incentive.  State level solar and electric car incentives are modest to low so few electric cars (relative to, say, California which has had huge incentives such as car pool lane access and astronomical petrol prices).  In this state and the US in general it will take a combination of 2-3x higher prices for natural gas (e.g. $10-15/mcf) and oil ($200-300/bbl) plus federal and state incentives to get people and industries to transition at a reasonable pace.  If those prices occur, the investment opportunity may be in oil and gas companies who will be minting money until the transition is complete.

Plain language:

Do you see investment opportunity in local projects (funding local generation, contractors, improvements etc.) or in global initiatives (technology, research, broader energy applications).

It's a combination of both.  If you're investing in public companies, the opportunities are global, but heavily restricted based on market access.  For example, some of the bigger companies coming out of this are Chinese, but investing directly in Chinese companies can be tricky if they're not listed in foreign markets.

For a different example, a lot of these Asian battery companies are building factories in the US.  So it's really the same definitional challenge that comes into play in a globalized world.  The R&D, physical infrastructure, corporate HQ, and stock listing may all reside in different countries.  "Foreign" and "Domestic" are almost an outdated concept.  As a more localized US example, all of Ford's Mustang Mach-E cars are made in Mexico, but Volkswagen is building their iD4's in Tennessee.  I'm not sure which one I'd consider more "domestic" in the US.

Le Poisson

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2022, 12:41:59 PM »
Timely fit to this conversation and (I assume) part of the answer to @GuitarStv's question about upgrades to Pickering:

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/canada-backs-nuclear-power-project-with-c970-mln-financing-2022-10-25/

With the local/international question, this fits @NorCal's observations as well. Federally funded (local) with equipment from Hitachi (Japan) to be designed/built/tendered by whichever international engineering firm won the bid.

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2022, 07:46:48 AM »
So I also agree that speculation on the energy transition is a tricky, long-odds game unlikely to produce extraordinary profits by direct investment without special luck or skill.

Let's pretend that the energy transition is wildly successful. That doesn't mean that retail investors will make money. The Railway Mania in 19th century Britain was wildly successful at transforming the economy and society. But retail investors lost a lot of money. The same thing is true for the dot com bubble. Innovative companies ran fiber across oceans only to go bankrupt and wipe out their shareholders. Today we use that fiber. The internet revolution was successful for society but not the investors in Global Crossing.

This is what I keep coming back to.

The energy transition is going to be largely done by the existing energy sector as they move into new profit areas.

Sure, money will be made, but how am *I* supposed to make more money than an index, which will capture this same profit?

Don't I somehow have to identify a specific company that is somehow undervalued compared to its future potential value due to energy transition? Most companies I'm seeing who are players in the transition already have a solid sense of their future value baked in to their current price.

Any moonshots are going to be smaller individual companies that pull of some miraculous shit that no one sees coming and somehow aren't bought up early by bigger energy interests.

The chances of little me identifying those seems pretty slim.

I spend every day overhearing highly privileged information about the government's plans on energy transition, and even then, I don't see a move I could make to outperform the existing energy market moving forward, which I'm already invested in with index funds.

As I said, I bought a minerals fund because mineral mining for batteries is a big current deal in Canada, but that speculation is already priced in. I *only* bought this fund because I have to buy an expensive managed fund in this account and the government will match whatever I put in 3:1 up to $3500/yr. So yeah, the ridiculous management fee is still worth it for the $300% annual gain from free money.

I don't believe for a second that it will predictably outperform the index I've invested in though, because it's already energy heavy.

The existing energy sector isn't going to fade away in favour of renewables, the existing energy sector has become the driving force of renewables infrastructure development. So I already own a bunch of the very companies that will make the most money off of the transition in the end.

I just don't see a play for myself here. Not one that won't be well captured by the index I'm already invested in.

Maybe I'm missing something, I've never been an active investor, so I'm no expert in finding hidden value, but I'm personally just not seeing the opportunity.

What I *did* see was real estate opportunity in a very poor region that was about to have $100M dumped into it's energy infrastructure with a view for it's port becoming a major hydrogen transport hub. Since that purchase, it is no longer the poorest region and is now the fastest growing economy and population in the country.

So for me, living in an energy producing country that is very actively involved in energy transition, my eye is firmly on the local investment opportunities as opposed to the equities. Because a lot of people can miss local opportunities, but there are too many eagle eyes on equities.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 07:52:44 AM by Malcat »

ChpBstrd

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Re: Energy Transition Speculation
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2022, 11:26:03 AM »
So I also agree that speculation on the energy transition is a tricky, long-odds game unlikely to produce extraordinary profits by direct investment without special luck or skill.

Let's pretend that the energy transition is wildly successful. That doesn't mean that retail investors will make money. The Railway Mania in 19th century Britain was wildly successful at transforming the economy and society. But retail investors lost a lot of money. The same thing is true for the dot com bubble. Innovative companies ran fiber across oceans only to go bankrupt and wipe out their shareholders. Today we use that fiber. The internet revolution was successful for society but not the investors in Global Crossing.

Those are 3 excellent examples @PDXTabs. It seems some new technological transitions make their investors money and others do not. I'll add the rise of China as another example where a massive trend didn't fully trickle down to the outcomes of common shareholders.

Yet there are some transitions where there was definitely money to be made. Microsoft, Apple, and IBM were the clear leaders to invest in back in 1990 if you could have foreseen we were in for a digital transformation within the decade. Now we have an entire generation conditioned to pile into anything remotely resembling that era, so any transformation narrative is probably over-crowded. Opportunities like the computer revolution arise out of malaise, crisis, skepticism, and pessimism, not FOMO. So when I hear the energy transition or cryptocurrency or Tesla hype, I'm hearing that a lot of people have already bought into a narrative in which the investments themselves actually have long odds. By the time you hear about it on Yahoo finance, it's usually late in the game.

Transitions/transformations only happen when a new technology way of doing things results in more efficiency or scalability. The personal computers of the 1990s increased workplace and manufacturing efficiency, for example. 19th century railroads increased both the efficiency and scale of transportation. The internal combustion engine was a weight-to-power efficiency improvement over the steam engine. E-commerce increased the scale of what inventory a store could hold, and the efficiency of shopping.

So first we have to ask: Would the proposed transition increase economic efficiency or scalability?

In terms of clean energy, the answer is yes. Solar energy has already fallen below the cost of coal. Wind power plants are profitably churning away across the world. Unfortunately, "green" investment as an idea has attracted lots of retail investor interest, and it's hard to justify paying 71x earnings for FSLR or 86x earnings for SEDG.

Nuclear energy, after literally generations of development, remains the highest-cost option though, even before we account for the expense of storing waste for thousands of years and dealing with accidents like Fukoshima. This information is sufficient to conclude nuclear is not the future, barring some technological breakthrough such as cold fusion that transforms the cost/improvement curve.

For cryptocurrency, the answer is an easy no. After a dozen years of development it is still not showing signs of reducing its costs to perform basic transactions, and incumbent technologies are outpacing crypto in efficiency gains. Adoption is near zero, outside of speculators.

Will BEV's become more efficient than ICE vehicles? Definitely. Even today's primitive BEVs, which are equivalent to the Model T in the ICE vehicle development timeline, are showing superior drivetrain reliability and cost-of-ownership characteristics if you exclude the massive margins TSLA is currently earning. They are increasing in performance and falling in price at a faster pace than ICE vehicles. Unfortunately it's hard to pay 77x earnings for TSLA or a negative PE ratio for NIO or XPEV, when single-digit PE companies like GM and F are projected to lap these companies in US sales of BEVs within a couple of years, but by cannibalizing their own sales. Again, the narrative is too popular among retail investors.

There is one pending technological transition that isn't gathering enough attention: the work-from-home trend. Processing power, software reliability, and network bandwidth are now sufficient to allow office workers like accountants, customer service reps, analysts, content creators, and all sorts of operational office workers to do their tasks remotely. They can attend meetings virtually, and communicate task status through efficient software solutions like Salesforce or Smartsheets that bring kanban-like efficiency to processes that used to involve people wandering around water coolers. Are WFH offices more efficient or scalable than physical offices? Early research suggests the answer is a strong yes, although some changes to management culture will be necessary. WFH companies avoid huge overhead expenses, can recruit labor from a wider geographical area, can pay lower wages, can be more resilient to outages or disasters, can reduce attendance problems, and avoid many of the pitfalls of in-person offices, such as worker's comp claims, disease outbreaks, sexual harassment lawsuits, and overflowing toilets. As management culture catches up to WFH culture, and as software adapts, we can expect more productivity improvements ahead. My post-recession playbook involves investments in CRM, MSFT, CSCO, SMAR, and a hard look at HUBS, TEAM, NOW, TWLO, DOCU, and similar, with consideration to the WFH exchange traded fund for diversification.

 

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