Author Topic: dot.com rally vs. AI rally - how much is apples to apples?  (Read 2700 times)

Financial.Velociraptor

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dot.com rally vs. AI rally - how much is apples to apples?
« on: July 25, 2024, 05:23:07 PM »
I'm old enough to remember when the dot.com mania sent the markets soaring.  Don't much remember the crash because I was a dirt poor student with no equity exposure.  But I did undergrad in Econ and grad in B-school so we talked about valuations and whether the market was discounting information efficiently a lot.  This AI run up is starting to smell in some ways like that run up.

But I think this time might be different (famous last words...).  The d/c rally was driven by absurd notions about margins and cash flow and aggressive dilution no longer mattering.  A huge part of the market cap of the Nasdaq was made up of companies that were lighting money on fire.  These AI companies, there are some unicorns for sure that are black holes for cash but they are increasing staying private with an important player that is nonprofit and will never be traded.  And the market cap of the Nasdaq is dominated by Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, and similar this time.   These are very different than Pets.com.  Not only do they turn a profit, they have stupid fat margins that are actually growing despite alarming capex spend, and thick free cash flow. 

I guess the question is, if we look at things where they 'should' be vis-a-vis effecient markets and traditional heuristics like CAPE, is another dramatic bust in the works?  I'm sort of leaning to the idea that using CAPE 24 years ago is not the same as using CAPE today b/c the legacy definition does not weight itself based on average net margins.  That is, valuations are certainly "high" but don't high margin businesses with wide moats deserve higher multiples?

I get that it is absurd to think Nvidia is going to grow into its forward P/E.  But Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, Oracle, Qualcomm, Meta, etc?  That actually seems not just plausible but even probably.  Sure, some short lived washouts on a very volatile ride.  But I don't see the Nasdaq falling 50%+ and not reaching a new high for decades again. 

GilesMM

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Re: dot.com rally vs. AI rally - how much is apples to apples?
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2024, 06:01:03 PM »
A crash is in the works for sure. But hard to know how big nor when.

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: dot.com rally vs. AI rally - how much is apples to apples?
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2024, 06:09:16 PM »
A crash is in the works for sure. But hard to know how big nor when.

A crash or a correction?  10% down - I'd say twice before just the election, which the amount recovered.  Maybe a 20% and a similar recovery.  A 50%+ draw down?  I think Mag seven or whatever they are called now represent great bargains at half today's price.  And does a 20%+ event finally prompt the Fed to ease?  This is a weird bubble IMO.

Captain Cactus

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Re: dot.com rally vs. AI rally - how much is apples to apples?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2024, 06:37:13 AM »
As they say back home: “Hard tellin’ not knowin’”

TheAnonOne

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Re: dot.com rally vs. AI rally - how much is apples to apples?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2024, 11:52:38 AM »
At it's core, 100% different, other than it's also a "tech" wave.

The difference is that this isn't really 100% all about AI and this isn't dealing with an entire market segment of companies that make $0 either. These are big, profitable entities.

markpst

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Re: dot.com rally vs. AI rally - how much is apples to apples?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2024, 12:02:29 PM »
I agree that this in nothing like the year 2000. Those companies weren't profitable, they traded at a crazy premium just for being internet or technology related. It still makes me a little nervous to have Big Tech make up about 25% of VTI  so I am diversified into other investments such as large cap value, small & mid caps, and international.

ChpBstrd

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Re: dot.com rally vs. AI rally - how much is apples to apples?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2024, 02:25:10 PM »
S&P500 earnings are growing at a pace usually only seen right after a recession - which are times when rear-looking valuations always look high. The surprisingly high +2.8% GDP report only reinforces this point, though I fear rising unemployment could soon put the growth party in reverse.

2000, in contrast, was a year of falling earnings amid rate hikes. Recession started in 2001.

When you note that the big tech companies dominating today's markets have high margins, that is another way of saying they are monopolists. Each has several niches they dominate, with no real hope of competition, and intellectual property laws plus armies of lobbyists protecting their positions in a new gilded age.

That is the real contrast with 2000, in my opinion. Monopolists should be worth more non-monopolists, because their earnings streams are safer. Apple can make non-repairable products that break easily and that will actually increase demand. Meta can further monetize your information feed and use AI to increase addictiveness, and users will only spend more time on their platforms. Netflix can raise prices, Google can invade privacy, Amazon can promote garbage, Nvidia can hike their prices to $50k per chip, Twitter can alienate everybody and yet we'll all continue to be users who are getting used. This is nothing like pets.com in 2000, which had more in common with today's cryptocurrencies than money printing monopolies.




MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: dot.com rally vs. AI rally - how much is apples to apples?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2024, 05:55:35 AM »
I'm not an expert on AI, yet I still see a lack of detail in many projections about AI.  I suspect people have, like in the dot-com era, not invested proportionally in the ultimate winners.  During the dot-com crash, Apple and Amazon stock crashed along with all the other dot-com companies.

According to Morningstar, Nvidia's enterprise value was $727 billion in 2021, and is $2,761 billion now, which is an increase of over $2 trillion.  Nvidia designs AI chips, then sends them to TSMC to be manufactured.  Nvidia also has a suite of software tools.  Is it worth $2 trillion for a competitor to design those same chips and write competing software tools?  I think so, so I expect competition.
https://www.morningstar.com/stocks/xnas/nvda/valuation

SeattleCPA

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Re: dot.com rally vs. AI rally - how much is apples to apples?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2024, 05:31:17 AM »
This AI enthusiasm feels to me very similar to the tech boom of the late 1990s.

To add some context, and some here know this, but I was writing computer books in the 1990s. And so seeing the froth first hand.  Also shaking my head about the hyper-optimistic returns people were forecasting. All the while, friends were telling me they had all their money in Intel, MSFT and Amazon...(I also live in Redmond, WA.) I actually moved out of 100% stocks and put a big chunk in bonds in late 1999. Watched the market continue to rise for a few months. Then got back in when the second gulf war drums were being drummed in late 2002.

AI seems similarly oversold. It does not yet do what boosters and journalists say it does. E.g., I recently tried to see how ChatGPT4o would handle the dozens of examples in my little self-published e-book, "Maximizing Section 199A Deductions." My idea was I'd update the book for the inflation adjustments. That would mean I'd need to redo the math of the examples. Seemed like something ChatGPT could easily help with, right? Even with detailed iterative prompting, ChatGPT4o couldn't calculate the right answer unless I gave it the right answer first. And the scariest part: A person probably wouldn't spot the repeated errors it made unless the person really knew the subject matter. Yet people continue to say, "oh yeah, accountants are one of the jobs that'll be hugely beat up by AI..."

P.S. Though I've been a long-time booster of static asset allocation and have used David Swensen's formula for nearly two decades, I think it's reasonable to think about using dynamic asset allocation based on something like the Merton share.

FireLane

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Re: dot.com rally vs. AI rally - how much is apples to apples?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2024, 06:51:57 AM »
I read a column about the AI boom and how investors are starting to get nervous:

https://futurism.com/investors-concerned-ai-making-money

The dot-com bubble looks more and more like a good comparison. Tech giants are pouring enormous quantities of money into AI, even though they have no clear plan for making money from it. It's one of those bandwagon things that everyone feels they have to do because everyone else is doing it:

Quote
"Despite its expensive price tag, the technology is nowhere near where it needs to be in order to be useful," Goldman Sach's most senior stock analyst Jim Covello wrote in a report last month. "Overbuilding things the world doesn’t have use for, or is not ready for, typically ends badly."

...According to Barclays analysts, investors are expected to pour $60 billion a year into developing AI models, enough to develop 12,000 products roughly the size of OpenAI's ChatGPT.

But whether the world needs 12,000 ChatGPT chatbots remains dubious at best.

"We do expect lots of new services... but probably not 12,000 of them," Barclays analysts wrote in a note, as quoted by the WaPo. "We sense that Wall Street is growing increasingly skeptical."

...If recent reports are to be believed, OpenAI may lose $5 billion this year and run out of cash in the next 12 months, barring further cash injections — an early warning sign that smaller companies already struggling to compete with Big Tech may be snuffed out before too long.

Generative AI is a cool technology, and it can do some fun and interesting things. But there's plenty of room for skepticism about whether it's ever going to be a massive profit generator, let alone the future of humanity, like its biggest zealots believe.

Like I've said before, AI is intrinsically error-prone in a way that no amount of training data can ever overcome. That means it will never be able to fully replace humans in any job where correctness of output is a concern.

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: dot.com rally vs. AI rally - how much is apples to apples?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2024, 08:01:21 AM »
@SeattleCPA @FireLane

Good points.  The massive amounts of money going into what is going to be a black hole for maybe a decade (the internet EVENTUALLY paid off) is alarming.  And I think its also somewhat different.  The dot/com unicorns were spending cash they had borrowed.  The tech giants of today are spending from free cash flow.  Alphabet/google has been spending billions a year on moonshots (most of which have been total busts) for decades and remain plenty profitable.  These tech giants can afford a little largess.  And they are basically monopolies.  It is normal for a monopoly to be a little less careful with cash and to pursue "rent seeking".  I like being wasteful on AI better than buying race horses, rare art, hoarding metals, etc. 

BUT - I appreciate the caution.  I'm bearish on NVidia (but would never try shorting it!!!)  Amazon, MSFT, Apple, Qualcomm, Broadcom, and some others I'm long term bullish on, even with profligate spending and rich valuations.  No position in any securites mentioned.

ChpBstrd

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Re: dot.com rally vs. AI rally - how much is apples to apples?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2024, 09:28:19 AM »
IDK... I suspect we're pointing to the errors and lack of economies in today's technologies (actually yesterday's if not yesteryear's tools are all we're being exposed to) rather than watching the trajectory of improvement. I have been skeptical about every techno-cultural change that has occurred in my lifetime, from e-commerce to streaming to social media to crypto, and have been slow to invest in these areas. In hindsight, my error was to look at how each product was worse than the competing way of doing things, and to think those errors mattered more than other factors.

It's been a few years since I read Clayton Christensen's The Innovator's Dilemma but I remember the following key points:
  • Innovations almost always start out performing worse than the incumbent method, and appeal to tiny niches due to factors that are different than how we measure the performance of the incumbent method (i.e. price vs. convenience, speed vs. quality, different minimum order quantities or form factors)
  • Successful innovations begin with worse performance than incumbent methods, but are improving at a faster pace than the incumbent method. Thus the performance of the innovation will eventually intersect with and surpass the incumbent method.
  • Sales of the innovation will be minuscule compared to the incumbent method, but grow at a faster pace than the incumbent method.

So generative AI may be useless for most people today, but because each of the above appear to be true all the pieces seem to be in place for a disruption in the next few years. The question is what is possible from a technical standpoint. I.e. will the technology hit a performance ceiling that will arrest its trajectory of improvement? ChatGPT itself demonstrated a breakthrough in 2021, and that was followed by breakthroughs in graphics generation. Prior to these events, most people assumed these were the ceilings that technology would never figure out.

So far, I'm seeing only fast, incremental improvement. The third legs and sixth fingers in AI images appear to be becoming more rare. AI-generated video (full of errors, of course) are becoming common. Text is becoming more creative, with more complex or even artistic sentence structures and coordination. People in my field are talking and giving presentations about how their paid AI subscriptions are speeding up their communication, writing, and analysis functions, and how they are saving time even if they must edit the output or generate a dozen iterations to obtain the output they want.

So there you have it - ball the ingredients: paying niche customers who value something different than what the traditional technique offers, a faster trajectory of improvement than the incumbent methods are managing, and tiny but exponentially growing sales. This is why the big tech companies are investing billions. They don't want to be left in the dust by the next technological disruption, which has become obvious much more quickly than the sorts of disruptions that toppled earlier tech monopolists.

Again, this is all consistent with what Christensen noted about disruptive innovation. It's not about asking whether today's product can replace a tax accountant or generate error-free output. It's about drawing a line from where we were in circa 2020              to where we are in 2024 and asking where that trajectory leads us in the 2030s. I think it leads to error-free output and AI tax accountants.

TheAnonOne

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Re: dot.com rally vs. AI rally - how much is apples to apples?
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2024, 02:54:09 PM »
If this DOES follow the somewhat typical hype->bust->normalization wave, what options do people have to invest in it.

If I wanted to invest in the internet, every company was small, had 100s or 1000s of "x" to grow. $10k could make people $10m.

Today, it seems like the wave is mostly already in the biggest companies, how many "x"'s can they really run? Could NVDA run from 3t to 10t? Maybe, but that's still a somewhat small multiplier for something like this.

FireLane

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Re: dot.com rally vs. AI rally - how much is apples to apples?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2024, 08:00:15 AM »
I read about a study which found that customers trust products less when their ads mention AI (correctly, IMO):

https://futurism.com/the-byte/study-consumers-turned-off-products-ai

Quote
As detailed in a new study published in the Journal of Hospitality Marketing & Management, researchers presented 1,000 respondents with questions and descriptions of products. Surprisingly — or perhaps not, depending on your perspective — they found that products described as using AI were consistently less popular.

"When AI is mentioned, it tends to lower emotional trust, which in turn decreases purchase intentions," said lead author and Washington State University clinical assistant profess of marketing Mesut Cicek in a statement. "We found emotional trust plays a critical role in how consumers perceive AI-powered products."

In an experiment, the researchers found that a group of participants were far less likely to purchase a smart television when its description included the words "artificial intelligence." A separate group was far more likely to buy it when the words were omitted from an otherwise identical description.

For "high-risk" purchases such as expensive electronics or medical devices, the effect was even more pronounced, with Cicek suggesting that consumers are more wary of monetary loss or danger to physical safety.

People are aware that generative AI can't be trusted. I doubt it will be a good investment until the hallucination problem is solved (if it ever is).

 

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