Author Topic: HSA No Rate of Return  (Read 1363 times)

bostonengineer

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HSA No Rate of Return
« on: June 13, 2020, 05:29:02 AM »
Hello,

I have an HSA from a previous employer that has $10k with Fidelity gaining no interest as it’s defaulted into short term CORE. I now have a different medical plan so I’m not contributing to the HSA anymore. What should I do with this money? I understand the benefit long term of an HSA, but it’s not doing me any good and 10k in 30 years won’t cover anything. Can I change it’s allocation or can I roll it over into something else? Just pull it and take the tax hit?

Thanks

terran

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Re: HSA No Rate of Return
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2020, 06:11:45 AM »
You can either spend it on medical expenses or invest it and leave it where it is. Are you maxing out all other tax advantaged accounts you have access to? If so then I would leave it where it is, pay for medical expenses out of pocket and invest it. If not I would reimburse yourself for medical expenses so you have more money to contribute to other accounts.

As far as investing, it works just like any other Fidelity account -- click the Trade link and buy what you want to invest in. Here are some good options (along with the Vanguard equivalents if you're more familiar with them): https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Fidelity. You can also buy Vanguard ETFs without commissions. The Fidelity Freedom Index Target Date funds would be a fine option too (make sure you use the index version, not the non index version). 

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: HSA No Rate of Return
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2020, 10:00:48 AM »
Only an HSA lets you contribute pre-tax dollars, and then spend pre-tax dollars on health care - without paying tax.  Roth IRAs are after tax, while Traditional IRAs are taxed on withdrawal (if you spend on non-health care, an HSA also gets taxed on withdrawal).

Fidelity would be my first choice of HSA providers.  I recall they have no monthly fees, and provide a wide selection of investments for $0/trade.  The problem is leaving that money in cash, not that it's an HSA.  Look at your other investments, and select something appropriate within the HSA.

You can let the HSA account build for decades, and then spend it on health care.
https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/wealth-management/hsas-and-your-retirement

Roland of Gilead

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Re: HSA No Rate of Return
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2020, 10:02:09 AM »
Our HSA money I just put in the market back in 2015...$19,000 and today it is $43,000.  Long term the market works.

terran

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Re: HSA No Rate of Return
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2020, 10:34:11 AM »
Only an HSA lets you contribute pre-tax dollars, and then spend pre-tax dollars on health care - without paying tax.  Roth IRAs are after tax, while Traditional IRAs are taxed on withdrawal (if you spend on non-health care, an HSA also gets taxed on withdrawal).

I'm not sure, but if your point is what I think it is then you're mistaken (albeit a common mistake). Once you've made the contribution you've already achieved the first deduction no matter what you do next. At that point an HSA is just a limited purpose Roth IRA that can only be used for healthcare, so you'd be better off withdrawing and contributing to a Roth IRA (or deciding you'd be better off with another deduction by contributing to a traditional IRA). This doesn't apply if you're already filling all tax advantaged accounts since you'd be better off leaving the money in the tax advantaged HSA than investing in a taxable account.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: HSA No Rate of Return
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2020, 07:55:13 AM »
Only an HSA lets you contribute pre-tax dollars, and then spend pre-tax dollars on health care - without paying tax.  Roth IRAs are after tax, while Traditional IRAs are taxed on withdrawal (if you spend on non-health care, an HSA also gets taxed on withdrawal).

I'm not sure, but if your point is what I think it is then you're mistaken (albeit a common mistake). Once you've made the contribution you've already achieved the first deduction no matter what you do next. At that point an HSA is just a limited purpose Roth IRA that can only be used for healthcare, so you'd be better off withdrawing and contributing to a Roth IRA (or deciding you'd be better off with another deduction by contributing to a traditional IRA). This doesn't apply if you're already filling all tax advantaged accounts since you'd be better off leaving the money in the tax advantaged HSA than investing in a taxable account.
When we disagree, I'm usually wrong.  But I'm quoting the IRS directly, below, so I'm curious how I'm going to be wrong.

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p969#idm139829341537504
(after the list of items)
"Contributions, other than employer contributions, are deductible on the eligible individual’s return whether or not the individual itemizes deductions. Employer contributions aren’t included in income. Distributions from an HSA that are used to pay qualified medical expenses aren’t taxed."

My understanding is this:
An HSA contains pre-tax dollars that can be spent on health care - without being taxed.
If you turn 65 and spend HSA on something else (like a boat), you pay tax on the money spent.

terran

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Re: HSA No Rate of Return
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2020, 10:51:11 AM »
Only an HSA lets you contribute pre-tax dollars, and then spend pre-tax dollars on health care - without paying tax.  Roth IRAs are after tax, while Traditional IRAs are taxed on withdrawal (if you spend on non-health care, an HSA also gets taxed on withdrawal).

I'm not sure, but if your point is what I think it is then you're mistaken (albeit a common mistake). Once you've made the contribution you've already achieved the first deduction no matter what you do next. At that point an HSA is just a limited purpose Roth IRA that can only be used for healthcare, so you'd be better off withdrawing and contributing to a Roth IRA (or deciding you'd be better off with another deduction by contributing to a traditional IRA). This doesn't apply if you're already filling all tax advantaged accounts since you'd be better off leaving the money in the tax advantaged HSA than investing in a taxable account.
When we disagree, I'm usually wrong.  But I'm quoting the IRS directly, below, so I'm curious how I'm going to be wrong.

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p969#idm139829341537504
(after the list of items)
"Contributions, other than employer contributions, are deductible on the eligible individual’s return whether or not the individual itemizes deductions. Employer contributions aren’t included in income. Distributions from an HSA that are used to pay qualified medical expenses aren’t taxed."

My understanding is this:
An HSA contains pre-tax dollars that can be spent on health care - without being taxed.
If you turn 65 and spend HSA on something else (like a boat), you pay tax on the money spent.

It's entirely possible I misunderstood your meaning in first post, but I've seen enough people argue vehemently for the mistaken thought that it's better to spend on medical expenses out of pocket so as to leave money in an HSA even when the person is not already maxing other accounts that I thought it was worth mentioning on the possibility that that's what you meant. The reason this line of thinking is mistaken is contributing to an HSA and not-spending from an HSA are two different choices.

As the link you posted says first, contributions are deductible, so that's clear evidence that contributions are good idea. But once you've contributed, not spending from an HSA for medical expenses when you can't max out all other tax advantaged accounts is making the decision to have more money in an HSA than in other accounts.

If instead you could take the money out and put in in a Roth IRA then this would be better because money you put in a Roth IRA can be spent on anything without paying tax while money in an HSA can only be spent on medical expenses without paying tax (or you'll need to keep track of receipts for past medical expenses). If I have $100 in an HSA, $100 in cash and a $100 medical expenses am I better off taking out the $100 from the HSA for the medical expense and contributing $100 to a Roth IRA such that I have $0 in an HSA and $100 in Roth or paying for the medical expense with the cash such that I have $100 in the HSA and $0 in Roth?

Similarly, if you could take the money from the HSA to contribute to a traditional IRA (or 401(k)) then you could get a second deduction and the money could later be taken out slightly earlier (59.5 instead of 65, or earlier with other tricks) to be spent on anything while paying tax on the distribution. Again if I have $100 in an HSA, $100 in cash and a $100 medical expenses am I better off taking out the $100 from the HSA for the medical expense and contributing $100 to a traditional IRA such that I have $0 in an HSA, $100 in traditional IRA and get a $100 tax deduction or paying for the medical expense with the cash such that I have $100 in the HSA and $0 in traditional and no additional tax deduction?

Of course, all of this is moot if I can otherwise max out all tax advantaged accounts in which paying medical expenses out of pocket and leaving money in the HSA is almost as good as having more Roth IRA space except that I have to keep track of receipts and gains are only tax free if spent on medical expenses.

beltim

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Re: HSA No Rate of Return
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2020, 02:49:29 PM »
I don’t think it’s as clear cut as case as Terran does. Before retirement age, you can withdraw money from an HSA at any point to reimburse health care expenses. After retirement, you can withdraw from an HSA for any purposes without paying taxes. In my mind that’s more flexible than a Roth, although admittedly the difference isn’t huge. But I don’t really see an advantage to a Roth, given the situation you’re talking about where you have existing health care expenses that you could at any point reimburse from your HSA.

terran

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Re: HSA No Rate of Return
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2020, 04:47:09 PM »
I don’t think it’s as clear cut as case as Terran does. Before retirement age, you can withdraw money from an HSA at any point to reimburse health care expenses. After retirement, you can withdraw from an HSA for any purposes without paying taxes. In my mind that’s more flexible than a Roth, although admittedly the difference isn’t huge. But I don’t really see an advantage to a Roth, given the situation you’re talking about where you have existing health care expenses that you could at any point reimburse from your HSA.

What do you mean by "After retirement, you can withdraw from an HSA for any purposes without paying taxes"? The only way you can withdraw from an HSA without paying taxes is by using it for medical expenses. After 65 you can withdraw without paying a penalty, but if you don't use it for medical expenses you will pay taxes. Gains on contributions to a Roth IRA and can withdrawn tax free for any reason (after 59.5). Gains on money left in a HSA will be taxed unless they're used for medical expenses. Both contributions to Roth and the amounts left in a HSA, but with prior medical expenses can withdrawn tax and penalty free, so in that respect they're equivalent except for having to keep receipts.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: HSA No Rate of Return
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2020, 12:20:38 AM »
I see - we're talking strategy and not the rules for each type of retirement account.  Both HSA and Traditional are pre-tax money, while a Roth IRA is after-tax money.  We agree on that.

OP mentioned "previous employer", implying they are working now.  Most households are in the 22% bracket, I believe, so I'll use that in my example to show maxing the HSA makes sense.

(1) Contributing to the HSA is pre-tax, which is an advantage over the Roth IRA.  Roth IRA contributions cost 22% tax.  So the HSA is tied with Traditional IRA, and has an advantage over the Roth.
(2) Paying for health care expenses from an HSA can be done with pre-tax dollars: money that has never been taxed is applied directly to health care expenses.  Money taken from a Traditional IRA needs to be taxed.  So the HSA has an advantage over the Traditional IRA: it can be spent pre-tax, while a Traditional IRA needs to be after tax.

So I see an HSA as beating both Roth IRA and Traditional IRA, if someone is allowed to contribute.  The danger with an HSA is running out of health care expenses - but most people incur plenty of health care expenses as they grow older (even after medicare reduces the cost).

beltim

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Re: HSA No Rate of Return
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2020, 03:56:46 AM »
I don’t think it’s as clear cut as case as Terran does. Before retirement age, you can withdraw money from an HSA at any point to reimburse health care expenses. After retirement, you can withdraw from an HSA for any purposes without paying taxes. In my mind that’s more flexible than a Roth, although admittedly the difference isn’t huge. But I don’t really see an advantage to a Roth, given the situation you’re talking about where you have existing health care expenses that you could at any point reimburse from your HSA.

What do you mean by "After retirement, you can withdraw from an HSA for any purposes without paying taxes"? The only way you can withdraw from an HSA without paying taxes is by using it for medical expenses. After 65 you can withdraw without paying a penalty, but if you don't use it for medical expenses you will pay taxes. Gains on contributions to a Roth IRA and can withdrawn tax free for any reason (after 59.5). Gains on money left in a HSA will be taxed unless they're used for medical expenses. Both contributions to Roth and the amounts left in a HSA, but with prior medical expenses can withdrawn tax and penalty free, so in that respect they're equivalent except for having to keep receipts.

Whoops, sorry - I confused the tax advantages of an HSA after retirement.  You're right, at that point it's equivalent to a traditional IRA if not used for health care expenses.

terran

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Re: HSA No Rate of Return
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2020, 06:15:54 AM »
@MustacheAndaHalf - I don't think we disagree, I think we're just talking about different things. There's no question that contributing to an HSA is a good move. What I'm trying to address is what should be done after that contribution is made: whether someone should withdraw from an HSA to pay for medical expenses or whether they should pay for medical expenses with other money and leave money invested in an HSA. My argument is that this decision depends on whether the person can max out all other tax advantaged accounts or not.

It doesn't really matter for this "argument" but incidentally, with a median household income of $60k most people are definitely not in the 22% bracket. In fact, 44% of people don't pay ANY federal income tax. You could be right that most mustachians are in the 22% bracket. I don't know either way.

@beltim - Right, an HSA not used for medical expenses is almost as good as a traditional IRA (slightly later age for penalty free distributions, and higher penalty before that). I completely agree that contributing to a HSA should be a priority, so I'm really just talking about withdrawing from an HSA to pay for medical expenses. In that case you can get another deduction by withdrawing from the HSA and contributing to a traditional IRA/401(k). Of course, if you can max out the IRA/401(k) without withdrawing from the HSA then that's probably a good idea.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: HSA No Rate of Return
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2020, 07:01:05 AM »
@bostonengineer - First step is invest the HSA in a S&P 500 or total market fund, so it grows.  Cash doesn't grow much. 

terran - I see, we're focusing on different things.  Maybe I should compare HSA to taxable.  If taxable money is allowed to grow, the dividends will be taxed each year, and the growth taxed when sold.  Within the HSA, none of that gets taxed (assuming it's used for medical expenses).  So the HSA money's tax-free growth is valuable, and might be a reason to spend from taxable instead of from the HSA.

I usually just grab the "median US household income" and go with that, which is $59k according to a Google search.  For a single household, the $12k standard deduction makes it $47k median income, which is in the 22% tax bracket.  For a married couple earning $59k, the two standard deductions ($24k) lower taxable income to $35k, which is in the 12% bracket.  So... maybe right, maybe wrong?

If there's an estimated MMM median income somewhere, I'll gladly start using that.  Time for a poll?
(Which will probably be biased downwards: people making the most might not want to share how much that is... an anonymous poll would help).  Although... I guess the actual income isn't important.  Hmm... maybe I'll create the poll just to see...

terran

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Re: HSA No Rate of Return
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2020, 08:38:02 AM »
Yes, I think we agree. Leaving money in an HSA while paying medical expenses from cash flow or taxable should come between steps 6 and 7 of the recommended investment order.